Yeah... Somebody Said That DU Is Not DU 2001... No Shit... Not Even Close...

[WillyT]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by azurnoir (a host of the General Discussion forum).

[orpupilofnature57]

1. America isn't the same place it was in 2001, if only we could learn .

[MineralMan]

2. That was me, WillyT.

It's not the DU of 2001. Then, there was an awful Republican President. Since 2009, We've had a Democratic President and will probably elect another one. Huge difference! I wouldn't go back to 2001 for anything, would you?

[mahina]

44. Lovely post.

Came to say just that.

[Hekate]

83. Good point, that

[NanceGreggs]

3. Hey, I'm so old ...

... I remember when DU was a Democratic-supporting site, as per its own statement of purpose.

Those days are gone, eh?

[greatauntoftriplets]

4. I have fond memories of those days.

The past is indeed another country, it seems.

[NanceGreggs]

8. That WAS a great time, wasn't it?

Actual Democrats gathering here to discuss the issues of the day, the challenges we faced, the goals we hoped to achieve ...

It all seems like a distant memory now.

[greatauntoftriplets]

11. It is a distant memory.

Though I like having Barack Obama as president and being rid of craphead Bush.

[NanceGreggs]

12. Oh, I have few complaints ...

... about where Obama & The Dems have taken us since DU's inception. But I have a LOT of complaints about where DU has gone in the interim.

It was a truly great site when it was a place for Democrats, liberals, and like-minded people. Now it's just another political message board, with no restrictions on who can post here, or what they can say - and the more anti-Dem you are, the more "recs" you get.

Really sad how it all turned out ...

[ismnotwasm]

15. Yeah it's depressing--well kind of

DU was there for me when my daughter deployed to Afghanistan--I remember feeling so frightened. It solidified my actual stance as a Democrat-I was more a Socialist prior to Bush. DU outlined through excellent posters the clear difference between Democrats and Republicans, and why Democrats are worthy of support. It got a lot of us through the Bush years--such a horrible time.

Now? It's fashionable to bash Democrats with politically naive dogma, if not outright ignorant hatred. Sad.

[NanceGreggs]

53. That must have been a truly frightening time for you ...

I'm glad DU was there for you when it counted.

"Now? It's fashionable to bash Democrats with politically naive dogma, if not outright ignorant hatred. Sad."

Very sad.

[yowzayowzayowza]

76. Srsly.

Passing ultimate judgement on political allies is just plain stupid. Used car-salesman ... war monger ... bigot. You name it. Tiz all fair game. It's not like you're ever gunna need their support for anything. Fucking stupid. The haughty left-wing righteousness is almost as bad as the overly concerned ... fauna.

[Cha]

81. Hey Aloha, yowzayowazyowza! "It's not like you're ever gunna need their support for anything"..

Exactly, and if you insult them like that.. it's not like the President can't get along without their support because no matter what they say.. he never really had it in the first place.

"POSUCS" "Trojan HOrse", whatever.. says everything about the poster and nothing about our President.

[yowzayowzayowza]

110. Hey, hey.

Long time.

[sheshe2]

39. I am pretty new here.

Ya, I talk a lot.

Read it long before I joined. When I joined, I felt I had a voice. Now....the alert stalking that Skinner says does not happen, well yes, it exists.

People, ie, PoC are being railroaded off this board. However, even when their voice is silenced they come back strong. I love every member of the AA group. Most educated group here.

Hillary supporters....yup, you run them off too. Why is that?

Why the hell are Dems so hated and abused on DU? Why does DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND SO HATE DEMOCRATS NOW?

[SidDithers]

9. Nailed it...

Sid

[Raine1967]

35. Joined in 2004, I felt at home with fellow Dems.

I stopped gauging the Dem party by DU standards around January, 2009.

Sad but true. Still love DU, but I no longer come here expecting it to be a place where Dems are the mainstream of DU.

[NanceGreggs]

50. I hear ya.

I no longer come here expecting DU to be a Democratic site. It's just another political message board, where anyone can play - so long as you "pretend" to be a Democrat.

[Raine1967]

54. The place changed when we elected a

Democrat as POTUS.

Suddenly— that was no longer enough. I think people took the Underground part too seriously. They forgot the Democratic part.

[NanceGreggs]

58. I think the place changed when ...

... the TOS was changed.

It used to read that "constructive criticism" of Dems was allowed. It was then changed to "any criticism of Dems" is allowed.

After that, anyone claiming to be a "disappointed Dem" was allowed to join, and post whatever they wanted about the President, the Party, and any Democrat - including fellow members here - without restriction.

We all saw the "introductions" proferred: "I canvassed for Obama, I knocked on doors, I walked twenty miles and back in the snow (uphill both ways), I depleted my life's savings in order to donate to his campaign - and now he's turned out to be a spineless corporate shill who has betrayed everything he said he stood for. Signed, Disappointed Dem."

It opened the door for every troll who ever dreamed of posting their anti-Dem screeds on a "Democratic website".

And those posters are still here. And they are accepted as "long-term DUers", and they have high post counts, and they are "star members", and they serve on "juries".

And now we are where we are. And it's not pretty.

[question everything]

113. I am still hoping that yes, we can complain about Democrats, but that we can start a debate

Yes, during the primaries some of us form a "groupthink." If you disagree with a candidate or, worse, raise a provocative question - that could be raised by the media - your are a troll, and worse.

We all learn from debates. This is why some wish for Biden to join the debate to really force Hillary to address many issues.

When people here succeed in hiding posts of their opponents, even complain enough to put an account of hold - what exactly do they achieve? Do they think that when they canvass for their candidate they would be able to do the same?

Yes, candidates have their groups on DU, but the GD: primaries should be open to honest debate.

I think that if someone truly is anti-Democratic party and Democrats they would eventually be terminated. But to prohibit honest debates will lead people for a great disappointment. Look at Karl Rove on election day at Fox.

This is a debating place and people should rebut and debate instead of just alerting.

Oh, and I wish that jurors, once they agree to serve, would provide explanation to their decision.

[DrDan]

91. I think it changed during that primary - it became significantly vitriolic and toxic in the lead-up

to that election.

and that has become the norm for this one.

[George II]

36. .

[greatauntoftriplets]

101. That was a great song!

[BainsBane]

46. Wow. That must have been when they have 5 cent coca cola

I've heard of such tales.

[villager]

78. Hell, I remember when it was actually an "underground," in terms of non-mainstream thought

non-Beltway talking points, etc.

Good times.

[Hekate]

84. DU was "underground" specifically in reference to BushCheney, as per Skinner in Ask the Admins...

It was never supposed to be a version of Weather Underground or Permanent Revolution Underground or whatever various anti-Democratic Party grudges or fantasies some people harbor. The name was very specific to the times we were in when Dubya took office, and though we finally got a Democratic POTUS, the intention of getting Dems elected and retained in office has not changed.

I agree, it was good to be here among people who similarly questioned everything about the Bush Cabal and their media enablers. Very good indeed. It was very clear who the enemy was, and it was not the Democrats.

The Dems still aren't the enemy. The media that enabled the BushCheney bunch is still decidedly not on our side nor on the side of objective reporting. I realized long ago that as far as most of the "news" media is concerned, the default political party is always the GOP, whether the Dems hold the White House or not. Everything gets reported through that lens, and warped. Just remember that.

Democrats and the Democratic Party are not without fault -- but they are not the enemy.

[Skidmore]

92. Yes! So much this! nt

[villager]

111. It's not a question of whether Democrats are the enemy, but rather "enablers"

No one expects the site to be a Weather Underground message board. On the other hand, no one expects an excess of apologies for NSA spying either.

[Cali_Democrat]

5. Feel free to start your own website

[onehandle]

6. Those days were heavy with Democrats.

These days are heavy with sockpuppets, zombies, and trolls.

[XRubicon]

7. I'm with you Bro, everyone was above average in 2001.

Everyone was great and everyone agreed... What happened?

[elias49]

10. Sounds like Lake Woebegone. nt

[NanceGreggs]

13. I wouldn't say that "everyone agreed" ...

We certainly had our disagreements back in the early days. But you were expected to back-up your statements with facts, and to debate with civility.

We weren't always on the same page - but we never lost sight of the fact that when all was said and done, we were on the same team.

Now, not so much ...

[calimary]

41. We used to have a common enemy (bush/cheney). Now we have each other.

[NanceGreggs]

47. Precisely.

And it's not like the GOP have suddenly disappeared - they're still out there, and batshit crazier than they ever were!

But a lot of people here think it more "productive" to see fellow Democrats as the enemy. One can only wonder what they hope to accomplish by doing so, and why they are allowed to do so on what is purported to be a Democratic-supporting website.

[H2O Man]

14. While I didn't join

until 2003, I had read stuff from DU before. I remember when liberal and progressive Democrats and the Democratic Left considered this common ground, where we could all discuss current events and political philosophy.

Them days are long gone.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Yeah I was 2004

I lurked a bit before then--read Bartcop. I never was the most prolific poster.

[okasha]

19. Long gone and not likely to return.

[HereSince1628]

25. That was a time when Greens could be found on DU ... and

MatCom's bareass climbed rooftops.

[NanceGreggs]

33. Although DU was posting my articles on the Home Page ...

... a year earlier, I didn't actually "join" and start posting in discussion threads until 2005.

My reluctance to join in the conversation was due to feeling out-of-my-league in terms of how much DUers knew about politics, how the gov' worked, etc. I was terrified of saying something totally ignorant of the facts, because everyone here knew so much more than I did.

Now I see things posted here that make me say WTF? on a regular basis. I can't believe how much misinformation is not only posted, but accepted as being factual. It's downright mind-boggling what passes for "accurate information" on a site that once boasted some of the most knowledgeable people engaging in discussion on political websites.

There was a time when reading DU was an education. Now it's just Sharks and Jets fighting over the local schoolyard - and it's devolved into the kind of edumaction that was once scoffed at as being the sole domain of dumber-than-shit Republicans.

[UTUSN]

17. "somebody" has been saying that tired meme *SINCE* 2001.

"Somebody" like Strict Constructionists of the Constitution/"Originalists". DU and everything else is living and changing, not static and dead.

SKINNER handled this meme before. It's such an elitist attitude. We're Democrats, not Royalists.

[ismnotwasm]

21. What?

It's a website.

[NanceGreggs]

22. "We're Democrats ..."

Therein lies the problem. DU can no longer say of its members "we're Democrats" - because a lot of the posters here aren't Democrats, never have been Democrats, and never will be Democrats.

There are many posters here - and rather prolific ones, at that - who have never said a single positive thing about any Democrat, or about the Party. Not. One. Single. Thing.

When the Home Page has nothing but anti-Obama, anti-Dem rhetoric day after day, exactly how many actual Democrats do you think want to sign-up on a let's bash the Democrats website?

[UTUSN]

24. However, you aren't talking about me, so .... n/t

[NanceGreggs]

26. No, I wasn't talking about you. n/t

[NanceGreggs]

61. You conveniently left out ...

... the "Obama is a piece of shit used car salesman" type posts that have often graced the Home Page.

"Trending now", LBN, "Cool", "Good Reads", etc. don't get anywhere near as much attention as what's at the top of the "Greatest Page". And you know that - or you should.

[Scootaloo]

62. I just posted the entire front page. including the "greatest" section.

There is not a single post there calling Obama a "piece of shit used car salesman."

[NanceGreggs]

64. Oh, right ...

... it's not there today.

I guess that means it never happened.

[Scootaloo]

65. You said that the DU home page "has nothing but anti-Obama, anti-Dem rhetoric day after day"

This is an obviously false claim.

That you have to go back to complain about a post from eighteen months ago to make your case, underlines the fact you have no case to make.

Go to discussionist if you want to lie about DU.

[NanceGreggs]

66. Look, sweetie ...

The actual Democrats who still bother to post here know what this site started as, and what it's become. Nobody has to "lie" about that.

[Scootaloo]

69. Your claim was false, NanceGreggs.

In fact your entire argument is reliant on this false claim. A claim which is demonstrably false, proven by clicking a single link. Since your entire argument is dependent on this falsehood, yes, you evidently do have to lie about it.

[NanceGreggs]

71. Okay. Fine. What ev.

Sure. Mm hmm.

I will hereinafter consider myself suitably - uh? - chastised. Yeah, I think that's the word.

Nighty, night!

[Scootaloo]

72. Have a pleasant evening n/t

[pnwmom]

86. Your post of a random front page doesn't disprove her point at all. She's taking the larger view,

you just literally took a snapshot.

[oasis]

75. Seems your getting replies here which proves your point in post 33.

[artislife]

68. Give it up, Scootaloo

Just walk away...they are lamenting here.

[blue neen]

77. It's not a false claim.

There were many, many days that the rhetoric was anti-Obama and anti-Dem. You just have to substitute anti-Hillary for anti-Obama at this time.

It doesn't matter if the post about the President being called a "piece of shit used car salesman" was 18 months ago. The point is that those words were allowed to stand here on Democratic Underground. That was a low water mark for DU, and therefore will always remain relevant to many posters.

[Hekate]

112. Actually, Scoots, Nance happens to be right. nt

[freshwest]

63. Exactly: 'Not. One. Single. Thing.' n/t

[UTUSN]

23. Oh I shouldn't have posted here forgot that I'm one of the "pissants" in your (OP) other thread. n/t

[Skittles]

80. replying to yourself again?

I CAN FIX THAT YOU KNOW

[SunSeeker]

18. I miss the Top 10 Conservative Idiots list. It's what brought me to DU.

Now, the "top ten" in terms of recs tend to be posts bashing Dems (usually Hillary or Obama).

[ismnotwasm]

20. OMG I know right?

That would be a great feature to bring back though--so much material to choose from

[zappaman]

28. Me too.

But if it comes back, it should be the top 50 list.

[NanceGreggs]

48. These days ...

... it would be damned near impossible to narrow it down to just ten - and even the Top 50 would mean leaving a lot of contenders off the list.

[Doctor_J]

100. a lot of conservative idiots are du members

Many issues for which we used to ridicule republicans are now a source of pride for "pragmatic" democrats

[Doctor_J]

27. it was a liberal site back in the day. now we have many staunch defenders of

War, bloated Pentagon budget, union busting, anwr drilling, fracking, TPP, profitized healthcare, profitized education, and so on. Interesting morph for sure. Like the party apparatchiks, the site has moved far to the right, and neither has benefited from the slide.

[Hydra]

29. It's a vocal minority

but they've always been there, as far as I can remember. There were even Bush defenders here that used to try and call me out for protesting torture and domestic spying. Now they get to do it under the guise of supporting "Democrats."

[NanceGreggs]

43. Don't remember any "Bush supporters" here ...

... who lasted more than a few posts. The Mods used to show them the door pretty quickly - but then that's when we had Mods, and they actually adhered to and enforced the TOS - as opposed to juries who aren't expected to follow any rules whatsoever.

But if you want to talk about posters who post things "under the guise of", there's the many, many, many RW trolls here who bash Democrats on a regular basis "under the guise of" being "disappointed Dems" who just never - coincidence, I'm sure - have a single positive thing to say about any Democrat, or the Party. Ever.

[Hydra]

51. Hi Nance

I remember quite a few people defending the Bushes and the Democrats who were covering for them saying things like "You can't talk about the torture, we can't prove it's happening!"

Then when we did have solid evidence of it going all the way to Cheney's office, we were still supposed to be quiet about it, because, you know, gotta keep our gov't in place, right or wrong.

Regarding the Mods, it was hit or miss. Some people were here LONG past their expiration date, and other times I had posts hidden that stated simple(if politically embarrassing) facts.

DU has never been perfect, but it's my favorite place to hang out and learn. I guess it's like school- you have your friends, and you have the bullies, and you have the people trying to keep order. It's noisy, messy, and you're sure there's gotta be a better way to do it...but it's where we are.

[blue neen]

52. Yep.

You are 100% correct. Not only do they never say a positive thing about any Democrat, they also cannot seem to make replies in a civil manner. It's like they are goading you to say something nasty back----and then they can GETYA with a hide.

These posters are taking over the site and may think that they are "winning". The interesting thing is, though, that they will only be preaching to each other at that point.

[NanceGreggs]

55. "These posters are taking over the site ...

... and may think that they are "winning". The interesting thing is, though, that they will only be preaching each other at that point."

Well, that's what I keep thinking about. There are those here who are trying to drive off everyone they disagree with - Obama supporters, HRC supporters, AAs, etc.

I keep wondering what they think this site will look like if/when they succeed. How long will the site survive when every OP consists of: "Hey, isn't it great that the only people left here are US?"

[blue neen]

57. They'll be pretty bored.

Probably find some other site to work that division and diversion magic on.

It's too bad the admins seem to ignore it. Oh well, there's not much we can do. I sure do miss the days, though, when we could come here for honest education on the issues, candidates, and office holders.

[NanceGreggs]

73. " I sure do miss the days, though, when we could come here ...

... for honest education on the issues, candidates, and office holders."

I think you summed up the whole thing right there.



I wish I could come here and have that again. I really do.

[BainsBane]

70. They'l turn on each other

In fact it's already happening.

[NanceGreggs]

74. You're right, of course.

And I've seen signs of it already happening, too.

[Doctor_J]

97. true that. The conservatives used to go away quickly

Now they have some cover since the democrat in the white house and the presumptive nominee are in favor of all of these conservative abominations. However, the fact that they are passing these questionable morals on to the next generation is ominous. When democrats are cheering for these policies, all is pretty much lost.

[ismnotwasm]

32. As well as loud and proud non-Democrats

Laying low Libertarians,--a few flat out Paul-bots and is troll infested from all sides. I think we could be more civil to one another if we tried, I really do.

[lovemydog]

90. I also believe we can be more civil.

We can vote to hide posts that are personally insulting, and from people who consistently oppose helping get democrats elected. And not take ourselves too seriously. We're a few souls who want to make the world better. That's a lifetime struggle. It won't happen from our posts. We may as well make our time here a pleasant experience.

[arikara]

37. Not to mention all the screaming and witch hunting

directed towards any who question their idea of "science". I can't help thinking some of the nastier trolls are paid to do that, and the rest follow along.

[BainsBane]

49. We have people claiming to be "progressive"

Who advance one right-wing argument after another, who work to exclude everyone but a privileged few--not coincidentally tied to race, class, and gender--from the body politic. While particular issues in the news come and go, a commitment to human equality, or lack thereof, is enduring. Progressive by is very definition means to move forward, yet we see cries to restore a past of the "real Democratic party," when the white upper-middle and middle-class prospered at the expense of the majority.

If opposition to the president's policies and the Democratic Party is an indicator of liberalism, that would make the Tea Party the most liberal of all. Of course it isn't, even though some so-called liberals or "progressives" target the very same groups for enmity that the Tea Party does.

[Doctor_J]

98. and those claiming to be democrats who agree with republicans on long lists of issues

Someone needs to say that war is wrong, that the country deserves uhc, that torture and drone murder are wrong, that excusing child abuse to pass a trade deal is wrong, and that the Bush family education ripoff is wrong. The democratic party used to be the ones who did that. Some of us still do. The rest of you should think hard about why you call yourselves democrats

[pintobean]

30. Sure seems like old times to me

Whiny threads follow locked threads.
Same as it ever was.

[William769]

31. You are right back then DU had actual Democrats that weren't throwing the Democratic party under

The bus everyday and twice on Sunday!

[sheshe2]

40. Boom!

[William769]

42. Back atcha sheshe.

[sheshe2]

45. Hey....

I am doing my best to catch up, so much happening here these days.

[DanTex]

34. In 2001, people didn't post as many drive-by OPs.

[Frances]

38. I remember major arguments in 2001

Lots of people were still arguing that Nader was a lot better than Gore

There were many arguments between Greens and Dems on this site

[laundry_queen]

56. I wasn't here in '01

I started lurking in '03. But I agree, I definitely remember some Dem trashing. Heck, I remember Obama's first few votes after becoming senator, and there was a lot of upset people then too. Lots of "I'm done with Kerry" before that. This fantasy that people here were all somehow united Dems under Bush is delusional. There were plenty of arguments back then too.

[ismnotwasm]

60. I think the difference, in part is the all the Non-Democrats

I remember plenty of fights--didn't participate in them--but now we have an influx of people who are baldly stating they won't vote Dem. if their personal conditions aren't met. We have people who trash just about anything our sitting Denocratic President does--to the point supporters had to form their own group.

The jury system is awkward right now, seems everyone (no matter what "side&quot is complaining about hides and alert stalking. It's easier to be rude than polite. I seldom see those occasionally great debates that used to happen once in awhile--people backing up points with coherent facts, and the interpretation of what those facts meant

My 'peers' here, any number of feminists, have left one after the other even before this recent debacle because sexism apparently isn't a concern to many people. (There are, fortunately plenty of great places to post as a feminist)

As a Democrat, I really never got really comfortable anywhere else but DU, I love the design and layout--easy to navigate. As it is right now, it's worse than I've ever seen it. I hope it will recover.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

102. You mean the

Black Lives Matter protestors?

but now we have an influx of people who are baldly stating they won't vote Dem. if their personal conditions aren't met.

We should all follow their lead. We should ALL demand that our candidates vow to meet OUR 'conditions', not simply expect us to elect them because of a 'D', whether or not they actually want to act like a Democrat in office.

[Sunlei]

67. I think they should losen up the 'breaking news' time stamp rules & allow 3 days instead of 12 hours

Most of the media has 'news' breaking stories that are Republican Name dominated. So the majority of the news in that DU forum ends up helping promote republican talking points.

Make the time stamp requirement longer and IMO more varied breaking news stories would be posted and much less republican name headline stories would dominate DU.

[Skittles]

79. I liked it better before the Tiger Beat clubs were formed

I seriously detest swooners

[Le Taz Hot]

82. +1,000,000

The "Tiger Beat Club." I like it!

[Skittles]

85. cowards who cannot tolerate any dissent - on a Democratic board

they can seriously fuck themselves

[ismnotwasm]

87. You got THAT right

[cwydro]

88. I have to agree with this.

There's some serious swooners around here.

[Violet_Crumble]

95. They are entertaining, though...

Just like this thread. I've spotted a few folk in here insisting that those who don't walk in lockstep with them aren't real liberals who only a few days back were complaining in other threads that others attack them by telling them they're not a real liberal. I dunno. If they can't take it, don't dish it out.

Same with the claims that some mysterious evil group of DUers is trying to drive Hillary supporters and the friends of those complaining off the site. Then in the next breath they're complaining about how a bunch of DUers don't belong on DU because they'd decided that a whole bunch of DUers aren't Democrats, even though I've seen the folk they throw this at pointing out that they vote for the Democratic candidate in elections. btw, I've never been a Democrat and never will be one. I can't be. Where I live I split my vote between Labor and the Greens and even though I support and vote for them I criticise them when I don't agree with them. Anyone who treats the political parties and politicians they support as being above criticism needs to toughen up and suck it up. Unless their supporters object to policies and decisions that they don't agree with, there's no chance of change coming from within...

[haikugal]

104. Thanks for this comment Violet_Crumble!

I totally agree!

[KG]

106. the tears of the swooners and canadiens sweeten my coffee

[DrDan]

89. not even close

[Thinkingabout]

93. DU is different today than it was when I joined in 2011. We was all about Democrats getting elected

Now, it is too many RW talking points and talking points which are not based in the truth.

[Bluenorthwest]

94. George W Bush was President in 2001. Thankfully, DU and America are no longer in that tainted

place. It is very hard for me to understand any pining for the Bush era or for any past times. Those were some of the worst times this country has ever seen.
My friend's granny says 'We are not what we will be, but thank God we are not what we were.' I agree with Granny.

[Blue_Tires]

96. Hell, it isn't even the DU of '08

[Rex]

99. People like to complain more on DU3 about other posters and not talk about issues.

It's like they cannot let META die off, even though some of them are what killed it in the first place. This place is far less open to discussion than it was, but a small group here made it that way. Along with their divide and conquer agenda. Didn't have that on DU1 or DU2.

DU3 is all about complaining about other posters and keeping it METAreal. Just a shadow of what it once was imo.

[liberal N proud]

103. True that

There is much more discourse than one would expect and much more vitriol.

We have also lost many of those who would hold you accountable if you posted bullshit, much less opinion. It is much easier for that to happen now. I miss that part about DU because they even policed spelling. It really helped me to spell better, I am a terrible speller.

That integrity of content was what endeared me to DU. Now I just don't know enough to go away.

[raouldukelives]

105. What was once alternative is missed when it becomes mainstream.

What was once Loretta Lynn is now Taylor Swift. What was once the Dead Kennedys is now Green Day. What was once Public Enemy is now Kanye.

When the mundane embrace the message, the message becomes mundane.

[NCTraveler]

107. When I first started here.

People were immediately given the boot if they posted and cheered numerous articles from conservative authors bashing democrats. It now happens on a daily basis.

[randome]

109. How is this NOT another vitrolic meta post?

Bonus points for throwing in the word 'shit' for absolutely no reason at all.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[azurnoir]

114. very sorry locking by host consensus