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[msanthrope]

This message was self-deleted by its author (msanthrope) on Fri Aug 7, 2015, 10:06 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Sheldon Cooper]

1. You and your ex did the best that anyone could do under the circumstances.

It's terribly sad for TTW, but sounds like the best option for Yoshi. Thanks for what you did, and never mind the naysayers who are bound to show up, offering nothing but "concern" and "skepticism".

[msanthrope]

4. Thank you....I am hoping everyone behaves. nt

[msanthrope]

394. ORIGINAL OP.....for posterity.

An Update on Yoshi.....6 August...and Updated Again.

Last edited Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:21 PM - Edit history (2)

An Update on Yoshi--- 

Yoshi has been placed in a shelter that can address his specific needs and give him the best chance he has for survival. I know that many of you will have questions on how it came to this. I hope I will be able to answer them, below. 
First of all, Yoshi is a charming, well-cared for, and charismatic dog. When you meet him, according to my ex, you are struck by how much of a presence he is, and how beautiful he is. When ex met him at the doggy daycare, he was surprised at just how massive he is. That he is a formidable dog is an understatement. 

Yoshi’s transition into my ex’s home was rocky. TTW was understandably upset at the entire situation, and Yoshi manifested this anxiety with growling, snapping, and panting. He was also physically ill, with kennel cough and diarrhea. While he did calm down considerably after TTW left, and my ex spent the entire night with him, Yoshi remained extremely aggressive towards the other pets in the house….to the point where I was advised by an Akita rescuer that Yoshi would kill the other pets if he got ahold of them. Obviously, this was not something we were prepared for. 

When ex defended a particular pet from attack, Yoshi snapped, growled, and backed him into a corner. Yoshi relented, but after that, my ex did not feel safe with him. Although Yoshi calmed down considerably the next day towards my ex, the aggression towards the pets remained, and we were advised that my minor child and her companion pet could not visit ex for regular custody and visitation while Yoshi was present. This would represent a major disruption to my autistic daughter’s life. This we were willing to do, by the way….. 

Yoshi has not been socialized to live in my ex’s environment—a busy neighborhood with lots of other dogs and families, and a home with housemates, other pets, and a visiting child. Walking Yoshi has been a challenge, although he walked well and was obedient, care had to be taken to avoid contact with other dogs and with kids. 

Second, it became apparent to ex and I that TTW, although very well-meaning, was totally unable at this point to care for Yoshi. Her current living situation is precarious, physically dangerous, and because of the eviction on her record, finding other decent housing will be a challenge. She does not have employment right now, although she is looking diligently. She is still trying to regain her possessions from her former landlord. While she is trying to stabilize her life, she is very far from having the wherewithal to maintain herself and Yoshi anytime soon. In consultation with other DUers close to this situation, the general consensus was that TTW would not be able to take Yoshi anytime soon---not for months at the minimum, if ever. 

Faced with these challenges, my ex and I contacted Akita rescue resources and asked what was best for Yoshi. We were told unequivocally that the other pets were in danger, that we needed to think about how an extended stay at exs’ would affect Yoshi---namely, how would Yoshi react to separation again after bonding with his primary caretaker—my ex, because Yoshi’s next stop wasn’t going to be back to TTW. We were also treated to a no nonsense talk about the nature of the Akita breed. Stop-gap and temporary placements, such as the doggy daycare, were not a healthy option either for Yoshi, or for the general public. Akita rescue personnel were blunt—as well-meaning as ex was, he was totally out of his depth. He was, as one expert in the Akita breed said “a dude with a goofy black lab trying to care for a wolf in the middle of a city.” Yoshi was, again, in an environment that would be a danger to him. 

So what to do? 

We—and other DUers close to TTW-- urged TTW to consider that rescue by an organization dedicated to Akitas was preferable to every other option. Yoshi would be in good hands, and well-cared for by people who had been running a rescue for over 25 years. We could not obtain owner consent, and without that, the rescue could not act. 

That left us with one other legal option—surrender. We could not contemplate simply dropping Yoshi off somewhere, so we listened to advice and chose a shelter run by personnel that work closely with the rescue mentioned in the first option. Ex spoke to the head of the shelter, who was made aware of Yoshi and who was there to welcome him. Yoshi will be evaluated, and with luck, will be placed with the rescue---note, this rescue, B.E.A.R., is one of only 6 in the United States that deal specifically with Akitas. 

We have tried to do the right, but difficult thing here. TTW can remove Yoshi from the shelter, legally, for a short period of time, but at this point, with no other place to take Yoshi, we’ve urged her to consider keeping him there. Yoshi is in the Women’s Human Society in Bensalem, PA……my ex could not keep it together when he described to me how nicely Yoshi was welcomed. 

I make no excuses—I went into this trying to do the right thing for Yoshi, and although this is not the option I think is best, I know, after talking to two Akita breed experts (who have been rescuing Akitas for 45 combined years) this is best option I can do legally. This is a move designed to protect Yoshi long-term, but will be devastating for TTW. 

Some DUers will ask if asking for donations was a scam. I don’t think it was---TTW is genuinely in need of resources, and she genuinely needs help managing those resources. She needs help. And with this last step, I fear even further for her emotional state. So, if anyone wants to rip me to shreds, have at it…..but PLEASE remember that TTW has just suffered a terrible loss. 

****Short Update---B.E.A.R. rescue is working diligently to move Yoshi from the shelter to the rescue (and they've been doing this for 25 years) they are moving full steam ahead. They seem optimistic that Yoshi is the type of Akita who will make a good, safe transition to care and fostering. 

******Second Update.....TTW, against the advice of the shelter and against the advice of the Akita rescue group reclaimed Yoshi as she was allowed to do under Pennsylvania law. I cannot express how disappointed I am. I simply do not know what she is going to do. 

117

Everyday Americans need a champion. I want to be that champion. HRC

392 replies, 16756 views

Thread info

[Jane Austin]

131. If I recall correctly, the breed standard for Akitas

states that they are dog-aggressive.

It's not a bug, it's a feature of the breed.

If you had a Golden Retriever who was dog-aggressive, it wouldn't meet the breed standard, but an Akita that is dog-aggressive would meet its breed standard.

In other words, they are supposed to be that way.

My admiration goes to anyone who is involved in Akita rescue. Bless them.

[msanthrope]

150. One of TTW objections to the New Jersey rescue was the use of individual kennels

I no understand exactly why this type of breed would need that.

[AtheistCrusader]

153. Its better to think of it less like a domesticated pet, and more like a working dog.

They have different temperament, and different needs.

Sometimes the temperament thing can be fun, if you've ever seen a border collie actually herding human kids, it can be cute. Can also be dangerous.

[Aerows]

197. Exactly

Flock guardian dogs, like Akitas, by nature will put themselves between anything and everything that might harm their charges.

Wolves, bears, lions. That heritage is simply something they carry in their bloodlines. They transfer that to their humans, too. You HAVE to socialize dogs like that so that they don't chew the arm off of anybody and everybody new that arrives.

[hlthe2b]

2. I did not know that Yoshi was an Akita...

As great a dog as they can be, I can appreciate the breadth of challenge you describe as a result.

I know that all of us want a quick and happy resolution for all involved. But, reality is often far more harsh, or at best, slow in its progress.

Ultimately, I truly hope things improve both quickly and long term for TTW. In the meantime, we can all hope that Yoshi will be well cared for by those who truly understand the breed.

Such difficult situations can never have an easy or ready solution. I hope that with time, that will come. I commend you on your efforts.

[msanthrope]

5. Ex and I did not know what an Akita was, frankly, and we are dog lovers who have been around dogs

always......currently, due to my eyes, and because I am now semi-retiring from the law, I am working daily with dog care and rescue. I was going to take care of Yoshi this weekend as my ex and daughter went away.....

Thank you.

[daredtowork]

124. One sad thought is this is why homeless people often avoid shelters

The shelters won't take their dogs.

Lonely people form profound attachments to their pets. The fact TTW just lost her home and all her possessions as well shouldn't be underestimated here. Some people might say, well it's just a pet - not her baby or anything. I really hope the emphasis will be on how she can get Yoshi back.

[cwydro]

3. You haven't done anything wrong, and only tried to help.

But this was my fear - that poor Yoshi is now in a shelter.

I don't understand why TTW didn't reach out months ago to all the Akita resources that other posters researched.

I'm sorry if TTW is in a bad situation, but it seems her choices put her there. Yoshi, unfortunately, has no choices. I'm afraid of a bad outcome here. Truly, I am.

Also, you said she was not employed: I understood in other threads that she was employed. These conflicting stories are what concern many of us.

Again, thank you for your best efforts with Yoshi.

[msanthrope]

6. I think that TTW cannot face giving up Yoshi, and I get that. Luckily, this shelter has personnel

affiliated with the very rescue that Yoshi would have gone to, anyway. I'm hoping he gets there---ex described him in only positive terms, and I think if any dog has a shot of adjusting, it's Yoshi.

My understanding is that TTW is not currently employed but is awaiting her next temp assignment from her agency---it is the unstable nature of temp work.

[cwydro]

8. You've done what you could.

I only hope TTW will see her way clear to realizing what is best for the dog.

[daredtowork]

121. Could you clarify TTW is doing temp work while looking for a job in your OP

There are certain people waiting to jump all over the fact that TTW said she was working and now you say she is not. The fact she is temping explains that. People often temp their way back into trying to get more permanent work. Employment programs often push you to do that because it gets you back to work faster.

[msanthrope]

135. my understanding is that she is signed with an agency.

When I spoke with her yesterday they hadnt assigned anything lately and she was attempting to sign up with another agency.

[magical thyme]

37. given the situation, I'm going to hazard a guess

that she probably lost the job.

It's so hard to start over when you hit rock bottom. And given what she's been going through, very hard to have any sort of emotional or mental equilibrium.

We don't know; Yoshi may have been the only thing keeping her going...

[daredtowork]

234. lol

This post is exactly why I asked msanthrole to clarify the job situation in the OP. I knew"skeptics" would go from picking at TTW to pickig at msanthrope.

Also, you have been informed many times, including during the past months in question, that TTW didn't ignore these resources. They required her to give up Yoshi.

What is the point of repeatedly asking the same question as if it has never been asked before? Are you deliberately painting a false picture of TTW's actions as "ignoring suggestions"?

[a la izquierda]

7. Akitas are tough breeds.

They are extremely loyal to their people. But they can be very tricky to handle. It seems like you all did your very best and should be commended for lending a caring hand.

[mnhtnbb]

9. This is sad all the way around.

Letting go of a loved one--whether furry or human--is a very hard thing to do. It is a real shame
that TTW is still unable to let Yoshi go--for his own good--to a rescue group that might, eventually, be
able to place him in a stable forever home.

You and your ex tried to do the right thing, msanthrope, by both Yoshi and TTW. I am glad
that you removed Yoshi from your ex's, though, before something awful happened. You have to
do what is best to protect your family, too.

I hope that TTW is reading through some of these comments. We all--well, most of us--hurt for her
in her situation and especially for her separation from Yoshi. But, it really is time to step up and
do the right thing for Yoshi. Please, TTW, if you are reading this, please let the Akita rescue group
take Yoshi and find him a new, forever home.

[Habibi]

10. Thanks - to you and your ex

for having such good hearts and level heads. I'm so sorry it came to this, but this does seem to be the best solution for most of the souls involved here, given Yoshi's behavioral issues and the options available.

[Adrahil]

11. You did your best for him. I wish him and TTW the best of luck!

And I think you and your ex went above and beyond.

[gwheezie]

12. You handled this well

I believe the doggie day care stepped up and then you stepped up to save this dog. There are still options that can keep him safe but its up to his owner to find the best solution

[magical thyme]

13. I will donate today to Women's Humane Society in Besalem

http://womenshumanesociety.org/

Bless you and your ex, both. You have done everything you possibly could to help, and you have made the best choices possible given the circumstances.

The doggie daycare probably found themselves in an equally tough situation -- that's why Yoshi ended up stuck in a crate, I'm sure. To be isolated from the other pets.

With the little I know about Akita's, I was worried. Had I known more of the situation, with other pets in the household and a visiting child, I would have been more worried.

Today is my payday -- I will donate to the Woman's Humane Society in Besalem. If possible, I'll earmark the donation toward Yoshi's care. Please let TTW know that, if it will help relieve her mind.

Thank you for the update.

[msanthrope]

16. they are good people I thank you for your generosity.....nt

[Habibi]

17. Uncalled for.

[Mnemosyne]

28. What a terribly cruel comment to make. nt

[CountAllVotes]

104. +1

I'm sure this is the last thing the TTW wanted. In fact, I think she was hoping she'd be able to get back on her feet and work it all out, hence being able to keep her beloved dog.

Sad indeed and no, I do not blame TTW or anyone for this. It is the breed of dog that is the reality of it and I too know little about the Akita dog but now I do!

Thanks for all you have done and are doing to help BOTH of them!

Tell TTW that plenty of people are pulling for her!

[irisblue]

54. mean & snide comment pal,

TTW had several 2 other Akitas before Yoshi. She knew the breed well. You can do an advanced search in the pet group to see her posts about him. She loves Yoshi very much and took excellent care of him for as long as she could.

[Yo_Mama]

59. That is just beyond beyond. What is wrong with you?

Please consider deleting that last sentence.

TTW is facing numerous challenges. This was not always her life, and now she is losing her dear companion. Do you have a heart of stone?

[Raine1967]

98. That's just mean. eom.

[840high]

122. Your comment is not needed.

[ColesCountyDem]

211. What a horrible thing to say!

Shame on you!

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I think you and yr ex did do the best thing for Yoshi...

You've both gone above and beyond with the help you've given, imo. I totally get that TTW would be devastated, and I can't even begin to imagine how she feels, but while I'm concerned about her emotional state, I was also concerned about both Yoshi and yr ex, especially after seeing how big and wolflike Yoshi is and that he was suffering from anxiety.

Hopefully Yoshi will end up pretty quickly in a foster home that's equipped to deal with him. And I hope however long it takes, that TTW does get back on her feet and realise that she does need help with managing what resources she has. I got the impression from her posts about the whole thing that it was all so overwhelming to her that she did a mixture of inertia and bad choices. And i was wondering how the eviction would affect her getting a decent rental property, because over here if someone's been evicted AND has a pet, their options for renting become extremely limited.

It's not hard to figure out how attached she is to Yoshi. I can't imagine how I would have felt in that situation facing the prospect of losing a pet that must be an anchor for her, but I hope in the next few weeks unless her situation improves drastically she considers what's best for Yoshi and lets him go to a new home.

Thanks again for everything you've done, misanthrope. You restored my faith in DU

[msanthrope]

21. there's no human involved in this that doesn't feel terrible this morning.....

Ex Is trying to be very logical about this but I can tell that he's extremely upset. the rescue people involved however are extremely competent and I have hope that yo she truly has a very good chance of very very good one.

[Yo_Mama]

62. Maybe you feel terrible, but you and the ex are the classic standup guys.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your mutual compassion infused with ethical rationality.

The deepest respect to both of you. Please pass that to your ex.

I think you both gave Yoshi a chance, and that's all you COULD accomplish at this point.

Perhaps having an autistic child helped you two to grow into the decent people you are. Perhaps you were born that way. Whatever, if there were more people like you two in the world it would be a vastly better place.

[msanthrope]

69. thank you and I will pass this along to my ex I can't tell you

how your kind words have touched me.

[JTFrog]

149. I agree on all counts.

Thank you for posting this.

[Hekate]

247. I agree, and thank you for this post. What decent, decent people the msanthropes are. nt

[Omaha Steve]

18. Thank you

K&R!

[msanthrope]

22. thanks to you and Marta too Steve for everything...nt

[bullwinkle428]

19. Jesus, what a difficult situation. I totally appreciate all of your efforts to try

and find the best possible resolution for all involved, and hopefully, both Yoshi and TTW will find the peace and stability they desperately need at this point.

[RobinA]

20. With Some Experience

with primitive breed dogs, I think you did the right thing for all involved. Not everyone is in a situation to care for this kind of dog the way it needs to be cared for. Hopefully, Yoshi is now with people who will be able to handle the special challenges of an Akita AND an emotional owner who does not necessarily understand the needs of the dog. May Yoshi soon be in a forever home and environment that is safe and appropriate for him.

[cwydro]

26. We're all wishing for that forever home for poor Yoshi.

He must be so confused.

[msanthrope]

25. I guess the library is open. N T

[Omaha Steve]

27. Hi Frank

I meant dofus!!! You need a better hobby & or life.

[catrose]

140. Support for Omaha Steve

and msanthrope, Ex with the goofy lab, moosepoop, & all the other lemonade makers. And TTW--may she find help and very strong bootstraps. A lot bravery and compassion is and has happened. Blessings to all, if you want them.

[irisblue]

141. Support for Omaha Steve + 100000

that was a bushwa hide. Could anyone share the alert? thanks

[catrose]

146. Truly! I'd like love to see the alert & results

With all the examples of rude, over-the-top stuff here, and some one picks Steve to alert on?

[RiverLover]

29. Its easy to do NOTHING but judge.

I've run an animal rescue org in the past. One time, I attempted to rescue a stunning German Shepard who had been abandoned. He was very good with me, but he attacked my ex who then had to go the hospital.

You can have the best intentions but be unable to carry through when people's safety is at risk.

I think msanthrope's ex is an amazing human being for trying, when he didn't have to do a thing. He did it out of goodness & selflessness. But he was backed into a corner by this dog....You don't know what that's like. You didn't do anything to help.

[Rex]

39. You sure are into this for only having 4 posts.

No dog in this hunt, right?

[Rex]

42. Why are you lying? The OP states

"B.E.A.R. rescue is working diligently to move Yoshi from the shelter to the rescue..."

But gee. You say something else entirely. No doubt you can show us where you get your claim from?

I will wait.

[Rex]

46. So YES you made that up, thanks have a nice day then.

We are done here.

[cyberswede]

48. Do.not.feed.

[Rex]

50. I doubt the person I am talking to is even close to that cute.

[gwheezie]

47. I think it's ok

The dogs owner cannot care for him. The dog is suffering because the human responsible for him cannot care for him. The last 2 solutions to the owners problem of not being able to care for her dog has placed greater stress on the dog. There are worse things than a humane death. I am hoping the owner surrenders him to the akita rescue. That is the humane answer to the immediate issue. Someone in Texas may run into the same issues as the doggie day care and the du member had. Shipping a stressed dog to an unknown situation in Texas sounds frankly nuts to me.
If the dog has to be euthanized it's s shame it's last days will be at a shelter. She should surrender the dog to the rescue.

[irisblue]

60. The rescue is in the northeast not Texas

NY, NJ & PA area. Where did you see that the rescue is in Texas?

[gwheezie]

64. Referring to the other home

The auto removed poster said another du member in Texas was willing to take yoshi. I was thinking anyone can say anything and back out and there would be know way of knowing if it wouldn't be a worse disaster for the dog.
This is heartbreaking.

[irisblue]

66. it is very sad

I would be devastated to lose my dog or cats.

[msanthrope]

79. the D you member in Texas is no longer willing......

this option was explored thoroughly. The Akita rescue people were very direct they said that they did not think that Yoshi would make it through that experience. Further that member also has other pets and this is now a complicating factor.

[gwheezie]

83. Yes I agree

This IMHO not have been a safe alternative. You bought yoshi more time. I respect you for your efforts.

[snooper2]

44. Take someones dog in, feed it take care of it, then pay the actual owner to come walk it?

[beemer27]

24. You and your ex are good people.

I do not know what religion you believe in, but am confident that The Lord will bless you for all that you have done. You were handed a very difficult situation, and did the best that you could. Akitas can be very aggressive, and you are lucky that no one was hurt. The dog is with people who understand the breed and care for his well being. If anyone criticizes your actions, they are knotheads who do not know what they are talking about. The world would be a better place if there were more people like you and your ex. Thank you for all that you did.

[Xyzse]

33. I can only commend you for what you and your ex has already done.

That really is a hard situation.

[gwheezie]

40. Do you have more information that we don't know?

Do you think people purposely set out to have the dog euthanized?

[justamama83]

49. Oh just stop......

The OP said they are working with a rescue group and that the dog looks like he will be a good candidate to go to the rescue. Several others have asked for proof that the dog is going to be put down - so put up or shut it. I don't see you offering any alternative solutions. Getting a large dog like that from Pa to Tx is not exactly an easy thing to do plus it seemed TTW did not want to let Yoshi out of sight. Now there was no viable option as the dog was a danger to other pets and a child in the house.

[Tipperary]

35. I once took in an unwanted dog. Unfortunately

he was very hostile to my other pets. I had to surrender him too. So I understand your situation very well. I know you must be upset. Please do not be hard on yourself. You did try and sometimes these hard decisions must be made.

[snooper2]

36. Same dog that was reported to growl and go after people coming to work on TTW rental

This almost could make for a weekly show on E!

Dog needs to go live on a farm somewhere LOL, long as it doesn't attack the chickens. That doesn't get tolerated very well....

[irisblue]

53. snooper2, why are you laughing @ TTWs' loss of Yoshi?

I first met TTW thru the Pet Group, her posts about Yoshi shown with love & caring about & for him over the years. Here is a post of hers from the group....from mid January this year.....Bedtime for Yoshi

After an exciting day of playing outside, eating the last remnants of snow, digging in the frozen dirt, snarfing up his hot dog treat (I made two for me and only felt like eating one), running around with me on his walk, peeing on everything, tasting everyone else's snow and sniffing out what everyone put in their trash barrels for garbage collection, etc. it's finally time to curl up on his bed with his bear for sleep time... until he decides to come upstairs and sleep with the toilet which is his favorite place for snoozing for the night (actually for a good chunk of the day since we're both night owls).

You can find more examples if you do an advanced search

I find your laughing at TTWs loss of her beloved dog, via the ROFL icons you've used in your post mean and unworthy of you. This is a he loss for her, and you are laughing. at her, shameful and low.


***and I will happily take a hide if needs be. this is just wrong***

[snooper2]

75. Sucks she doesn't have her dog, but she was offered a place to live WITH her dog for a year

For essentially Free...

either North or South Carolina- There is something else going on with her that nobody but apparently a couple people know about who have actually interacted with her.

I wasn't joking about the farm thing...Dog needs to be out in the country somewhere


It's an ongoing Soap opera at this point

[cwydro]

96. Yeah, it was SC.

This whole thing is completely bizarre.

I feel sorry for the dog.

I have pets, and I would give them up if I thought this kind of thing would happen to them because of my bad choices.

Again, just to be clear...I think msanthrope's heart was in the right place.

[darkangel218]

127. Soap opera???

Last edited Thu Aug 6, 2015, 02:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Wow.. I can't say what I really think in this moment but... :grr

[JI7]

177. it would not have worked out as we now know

The same problems misanthrope and ex had would have happened there.

I think this is why ttw did not take up many of the offers.

It's a sad situation all around but op and her ex did more than could be done in this situation.

[bettyellen]

350. But Yoshi and TTW would have made one move- together- into a less stressful situation. And if it

wasn't working she could have at least found work and social services and plan the next move instead of living moment to moment, possibly on the streets now. TTW needed to give up this charity on "her terms" crap- it does not exist. Not for anyone. That is a fire tale.

[trueblue2007]

218. YOU ARE SO MEAN!!!! How could you laff at TTW's poor dog in a miserable situation.

You have no heart. Just shut up if you can't offer good suggestions.

I love animals so much, your snarky lolol note just brings tears to my eyes. You are a ---- !!!!!

[Rex]

51. You did your best, far more than 99% of the people here would do imo.

Yet they can complain that you did not do everything to PERFECTION. Some people...

[mopinko]

52. you did your best. sometimes that is all there is.

i have a big, troublesome bully dog. there are not many people who could take him in.
as wonderful as he is, as much as i love him and he loves me, if something happened to me and to my home, he would be a hard one to place.

hopefully he will end up in the right place for him.

i have read ttw's posts about yoshi in pets for a long time. it was easy to see how devoted they were to each other.
i hope she lands on her feet, and yoshi, too.

i wish they were closer, tho. i have a friend who has 3 akitas, and they are just amazing gentle giants. would love to see yoshi join his sweet pack.

xo to all of you.

[Yo_Mama]

55. Thank you and your ex for all this. All of it. I'm sure some will be harsh,

but you both did absolutely the best you could do.

Anyone who snarks at either of you for this is just not aware what could happen to Yoshi under these circumstances.

I am very sorry for TTW, but it is better for her not to have Yoshi die of stress or be put down as a vicious dog.

[blackspade]

56. Truely sad.

You and your ex have been great to accept this responsibility.
I'm just sorry that Yoshi couldn't make a smooth transition to a stable household.
Hopefully he can find a happy place that will meet his needs.

It's terrible that TTW has been put in such a crappy position. Hopefully things will improve.

[SheilaT]

57. I am certainly sorry to hear this.

But several months ago TTW did brag that Yoshi would probably attack anyone who came onto her property. And Akitas do have a reputation for being not very nice.

Also, what happened to TTW's job? We were assured that she's working.

[underahedgerow]

73. Sorry to hear that Yoshi exists? That the doggie daycare exists? That MsAnthrop did her very

very best in a really suck situation?

What are you sorry for, exactly?

Your conspicuous absence noted during the past couple day's posting of photos and verification of Yoshi's circumstances.

I notice you didn't take me up on my bet.

'Sorry' shouldn't be the word you're using right now, unless it's in a very specifically worded apology to TTW AND MsAnthrop.

[SheilaT]

87. No, I'm sorry to hear that the situation with Yoshi is so bad.

But given what TTW said about the dog's aggressiveness a long time ago, it's hardly surprising.

[Texasgal]

94. actually, the situation is not bad at all.

The dog is now being placed with people that know how to care for him properly and will find him an appropriate home.

I question your motives here. What's your point in all of these threads anyway?

[underahedgerow]

102. Doncha know? She's protecting us from scammers! It's because she cares deeply for the well being of

all the DUers who were apparently being scammed by TTW and Msanthrop. You see, in her eyes, Yoshi didn't exist!

Now she feels just terrible for the dog.... that, according to her a few days ago, didn't even exist.

She's very kind and magnanimous, really! A heart bursting full of sweetness and light, kindness and generosity, not to mention the overwhelming compassion that exudes from every pore. Never a harsh word and always just expecting the best from people....

*cough*

[SheilaT]

105. I never claimed the dog didn't exist.

I don't particularly care if people here want to give money to TTW.

But I've been following this very long and drawn out soap opera since February, and I am by no means the only one who has pointed out the many inconsistencies in TTW's various stories, as well as her refusal to make use of many excellent suggestions from people here about her situation.

In the last thread, we were assured she has a job, only now she's not working. Again the inconsistencies are noticeable.

[Kali]

107. when your life falls apart for WHATEVER reason, you will learn about

choice and inconsistency. hopefully there will be people with compassion around to help and comfort you.

[underahedgerow]

109. Let's hope she receives all the compassion and kindness she has shown to others.

I'm sure it will all come her way in bucket-loads.

[Texasgal]

111. So what?

To be quite frank, your partcipation in these threads is just bizzare! I mean, seriously! What's your point?

Are you trying to be some great internet sleuth that everyone will fawn over once you uncover the "truth"? Are you ill? Do you need attention? For the life of me I cannot figure out WHY you are doing this. It's bizzare!

[SheilaT]

115. So what?

Apparently I can be accused of anything at all, and it's okay because some people in this thread are really bothered because I point out various sketchy parts of this entire story. And I'm by no means the only one. Look back at previous threads, starting with those started by TTW herself.

Don't get me wrong. I have enormous compassion, and I do various kinds of charity work, such as in the local homeless shelter, so I'm not the heartless fiend people here are trying to paint me as.

In the last thread someone talked about an Akita's needs, expressed great concern for the situation that was the original solution to the Yoshi problem, and now in this thread this poor unfortunate animal is back in a shelter. Months ago TTW refused to consider going to an Akita rescue group, and now this gorgeous dog (and he is beautiful) is back in a shelter, with maybe the possibility of rescue. Kind of the worst of all possible outcomes, being shuttled around like this.

[Texasgal]

132. You are not pointing out various

"sketchy" parts of this story. You are bloviating over things you have no idea about.

Not that anyone owes you an explaination, but since you cannot stop your bizarre behavior I'll let you in a little secret. The job was through a temp agency, once the job was completed it was over. The TEMP agency is trying to place her again. I guess thats sketchy?

To be really honest you are painting yourself as the heartless fiend. Your words, nobody else's. I do not belive that you've ever helped a homeless person in your life. Such hatred as you have posssed in these threads make me either A: Not believe you. Or B: Feel very sorry for any homeless person you have "helped".

Spare me your wisdom.

[JTFrog]

227. Does the homeless shelter know that you found the plight of someone on the verge of homelessness

entertaining?

Compassion?

[tblue37]

152. She is with a temp agency--working as much as she can get. She is also signing

up with another, since apparently the agency she is with isn't getting her as much work as she needs.

She is doing everything she can under the circumstances.

[daredtowork]

240. msanthrope already clarified it was a temp agency. =.=

You are the one who projects sketchiness and inconsistencies where none actually exists. If you hunt long enough, you can always find "evidence" for your preconceived opinion, though.

I knew the minute I saw that phrasing in msanthrope's post that she had better clarify it sine you were on the hunt foan "inconsistancy".

Also, TTW has never ignored n excellent suggestion. You've ignored why those resources were inappropriate. Even in previous months it was stated that Akita Rescue would force TTW to give up Yoshi.

It seems part of the purpose of your (and other "skeptic&quot posts is to paint a false picture of TTW's actions - probably with the intention of dissuading others from helping her.

Why should you feel the need to repeatedly LIE about TTW? I have also noticed here and in past threads your tendency to stretch TTW's rent requests to longer than they actually occured.

[Facility Inspector]

357. TTW was not required to put her life on public display

Did this person get the cash? Yep. You get everything else that goes along with it too.

There are prices to pay for everything.

[Mariana]

172. Well, the dog MAY be placed

with people that know how to care for him properly and will find him an appropriate home, sometime in the future. That hasn't happened yet, and it may never happen. As of now, Yoshi's owner has refused to consent to such placement, and therefore the dog is NOT with the Akita rescue people. He remains in the Humane Society shelter.

[Texasgal]

176. The shelter is run

by a man that used to run an Akita rescue. He is taking very much consideration with the breed.

[Mariana]

198. The dog is no longer at the shelter

and he isn't with the rescue people, either. Yoshi's owner has removed him from the shelter.

[Texasgal]

202. I just saw that.

My response to you was before this latest update. Check the time stamps.

[Mariana]

208. I know.

I hope she comes to her senses about that dog, before he becomes more ill and/or hurts someone from being so stressed.

[Person 2713]

100. I know! now just oops sorry after all the accusing

[magical thyme]

80. I'm really torn here

Part of me wants to put you on ignore so I don't have to read your mean-spirited, passive-aggressive attacks on somebody who's clearly hitting rock bottom, ever again. I'm no fan of TTW, but this is just cruel and hateful.

OTOH, part of me feels the need to start setting the record straight on those occasions when you pretend to be a medical professional because you have zero clinical training, so really it would just be for the safety and protection of anybody who's not familiar with your history.

Why don't you just give it a rest and put TTW and Yoshi in the trash file and leave her alone?

Or would you like somebody to start posting your DU history? Because I guarantee you, your posts back-to-back, well, they're not great reading.

[JTFrog]

86. + infinity n/t

[SheilaT]

88. When in the world have I pretended to be a medical professional?

People keep on confusing me with someone else, and I can't figure out why.

And a lot of people here probably have posts that would not make great reading.

[magical thyme]

126. many times.

You work in health care administration, right? Post divorce you moved partway across country and got a new job in a new field...health care administration. Right?

And yes, many times you've been out there offering your medical opinion. I've bitten my fingertips til they were bleeding in the past. Do it again, and I won't.

[SheilaT]

129. Never worked in health care administration. Never claimed to.

Did work at a hospital, doing registration and then the information desk, which I've generally mentioned.

I'm not exactly the only person here who occasionally chimes in with advice about medical things, especially when people here post a question.

Why in the world are you attacking me like this?

[magical thyme]

133. registration at a hospital is health care administration

"Why in the world are you attacking me like this?"

Yeah, its not fun being attacked, is it? And your life isn't falling apart all around you at the moment, is it?

Try reading your posts in every TTW thread of the past few months.

[SheilaT]

136. Trust me, I was not in health care administration.

I was a lowly clerk, then an even lowlier information desk person. It did mean I got to know something about how at least one hospital operates.

And if you've read through every TTW thread you might pay attention to exactly how she responded from the very beginning to genuinely useful suggestions and offers of help. I'm just not good at feeling sorry for someone who does that.

I have not attacked TTW, just tried to ask a few good questions, which clearly aren't welcome.

So have fun all of you.

[trueblue2007]

221. Why in the world are you attacking me like this? BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN SO MEAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[7962]

235. I'm still looking for your heartless posts........

[MineralMan]

58. Tough situation. I'm sorry you had to deal with it.

Please ignore those who are after you over this. It sounds like you took the best available path.

[Texasgal]

61. Thank You Msanthrope and your EX

for everything!

You did the right thing. Yoshi is out of a situation that was no good and and has now been placed in a good enviroment where he can find a loving and suitable owner.

TTW- if you are reading this, I want to say I am so sorry. Everyone envolved did their very best to keep you guys together. My heart is breaking for you. Atleast he is not suffering, hungry or without safety. This is the most loving thing that you can do at this point. Please call me soon.

Msantrope and co. deserve major kudos and support, I stand behind you and support you in this extremely sad situation.

[msanthrope]

91. Thank you for thjs.....you and moosepoop have worked behind the scenes

for a very long time trying to help both yoshi and t t w. your kind and generous spirit has truly helped TTW and while I'm sad about Yoshi I'm grateful for the support here and I do believe this is the dogs very best chance.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Thank you for trying. That's all that can be expected of anyone. n/t

[leftyladyfrommo]

65. Yoshi needs to be with people who know Akita's.

This is what happens so many times when people get a dog that is way more than they can handle. And they don't do it on purpose. They just don't have any concept of how big and strong and aggressive some of these dog breeds are. Akita's should never be sold to people who don't have the strength and no how to handle them. They were bred as fighting dogs. Never a good choice for someone wanting a pet or companion dog.

I have a customer that decided to get a big dog. She was thinking Newfoundland or St. Bernard. Those giant breeds have been bred for generations to have gentle temperaments.

But somehow she ended up with a Great Pyrenees and an Anatolian Shepherd. Both of those breeds are sheep guardian dogs. They are bred to live out with the flock from the time they are 4 month's old. They are independent and don't train well at all. And at about 8 months they become extremely protective. They make horrible pets. They are not bred to be pets.

So here she is with two potentially very dangerous dogs. They will attack and kill anything that comes onto their territory. She doesn't have a clue what she has. And I am scared to death something awful is going to happen. Both of those dogs could reach 150 pounds.

It sounds to me like you did the very best thing that you possible could have done for that dog. Good for you.

[snpsmom]

71. We had a Pyr

that we got from a shelter as a pup. The shelter misidentified her as a golden, and we'd never had big dogs (or any dogs) before. She was the best, sweetest pet we ever had. The only time she ever even growled at a human was during a walk when she didn't like something about a man down the street. She stopped us at the corner and placed herself between us and him. We assumed from this unusual behavior that he was a bad dude. She got along great with our later addition collie-malamute shelter dog, too.

[leftyladyfrommo]

72. It might depend on whether the dog was bred as an AKC show dog

or as an actual working sheep guardian dog.

Most of the breeds bred over the years for the show ring have lost 95% of their working ability.

But a dog actually bred for sheep work does not belong anywhere but out with the flock.

I'm glad that it all worked out for you. The one she had was already threatening anyone that came too close to her car. She was trying to spend a lot of time socializing both of those dogs and I really, really hope she succeeds both for her sake and the sake of those dogs.

[snpsmom]

81. I hope so, too. n/t

[Tipperary]

144. I have known only wonderful Aussie shepherds

but that is a very sad story about your customer. I do not understand why people do not research breeds. Or just go to the pound and get a great mutt.

[tblue37]

154. Anatolian Shepherd, not an Aussie, which is not a huge or dangerous breed. nt

[Tipperary]

161. Oh dear. This is what I get for reading on my phone

without the right glasses. Well that explains it, but still a sad tale.

[tblue37]

199. BIG doggies! nt

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b%3D1%26f%3D5%26t%3D1154678&h=640&w=488&tbnid=peldYQZpj3VwlM:&docid=JjdhidvoH4mC3M&ei=jtrDVcKKK4eyggSJwZHICQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CBAQMygNMA04ZGoVChMIwomw7buVxwIVB5mACh2JYASZ

[leftyladyfrommo]

187. Anatolia we're used as war dogs.

They are huge. Friendlier than Pyrs but very food aggressive.

There a whole bunch of different sheep guardian dogs

But they are all basically the same. Big and mostly white and bred to be very protective of their territory. They will take on bears. But if you are in wolf country you have to have several. The wolves will gang up on them and kill them.

They are very independent and don't respond well to training. They are bred to work by themselves and just stay out with the flock.

[roody]

185. I'll do you one better. Stop breeding dogs,

everybody!!

[bettyellen]

67. You deserve a medal, and some hugs if you can stand them, seriously.

Kudos to you for stepping up and handling one after another difficult decision with a heart and clear head. I truly admire that.
It sounds like you are doing all that can be done. I hope TTW will understand in time and is able to find resources soon that will enable them to be reunited.
Does the shelter or rescue group need any help publicizing the need for Yoshi's rehoming? DU+ FB could probably help with that.

[AtheistCrusader]

68. You did the right thing. The hardest, but Right(TM) thing.

MAD props. Seriously, that is not easy. No one could ask more of you.

Very similar scenario unfolded for a woman my mom was trying to aid, big dog (rescue), eviction, difficulties with the owner, etc. Because the dog was not removed from her care, he ended up living with her in a bad place he could not be, ended up lashing out and biting someone on the forearm, not badly, but enough for legal action. Owner was faced with 'destroy the dog, or if he bites again, you go to jail.'.

A victim of the owner's circumstances, a dog that could have had a long happy life in the right setting, was destroyed that day before any of us could even act.


You did the right thing. Yoshi has a chance now.

I'd hug the shit out of you right now if I could. TTW needs help, that's clear, but help of the human kind. Yoshi can't help her, though losing him and his companionship will likely injure TTW further. Sad, but better long term. Probably safe to assume TTW would prefer Yoshi live happy in a better setting, than be faced with a choice like my mom's neighbor. One option is a loss but constructive. The other is entirely destructive for her an Yoshi. Choice is clear, if painful.

Good on you.

[msanthrope]

99. the scenario you described was exactly what we feared for Yoshi.

We fear that there would be an incident and then of course all choices would be taken away.

[AtheistCrusader]

134. It's an unfortunately common scenario.

Your outcome (so far) is the rare, difficult to achieve best option given the circumstances.

[hamsterjill]

70. Just a clarification, please.

First of all, I do cat rescue in Texas, and some "shelters" down here are not what they present themselves to be, so please pardon my concern. But your comment "Yoshi will be evaluated, and with luck, will be placed with the rescue" has me concerned. With luck????

If he cannot be placed with the rescue, will he be euthanized?

And yes, I also read your "Short Update" which seems to be good news. But I've seen shelters and rescues drop the ball, too. So, with all due respect and without judgment, I ask that you follow up and stay involved in what is happening to Yoshi and do not trust blindly what you are told.

This post is NOT made with malicious intent. I know how hard it is to place dogs with even the slightest hint of aggression. Thank you for your efforts.

[msanthrope]

90. Me and ex share your concern..... we didn't want to surrender Yoshi just anywhere....

I wanted Yoshi to go directly to the Akita rescue in New Jersey. TTW would not agree to that.

legally at that point I had no other option but to surrender the dog in the state of Pennsylvania. there was no way I was going to surrender that poor dog to just any shelter...... so we found a particular shelter where staff closely affiliated with the New Jersey rescue happened to work. our fear was that if we dropped you off at any random shelter they would not necessarily contact the rescue organization in New Jersey..... that's why we chose Bensalem because we checked them out and found out yes they absolutely would go through the rescue organization.

This is Yoshi's best chance to avoid euthanization.

[hamsterjill]

92. Please stay in touch with the shelter and rescue, and follow what happens to him.

I've found that when someone is keeping tabs on shelters and even rescues, there is much less of a chance for a dog or cat to fall through the cracks, "mistakes" (i.e., euthanizing the wrong dog) are less likely to happen, and all around, you get a better result.

Here's hoping for the best for Yoshi.

[msanthrope]

97. Absolutely.....my ex and I will not let this dog

Fall through the cracks.

[irisblue]

110. much respect for you and your Ex

you both are menschs and I really hope all of TTWs troubles end soon.

[tblue37]

156. I am not religious at all, yet I find myself wanting to say, "Bless you!" to you and your ex. nt

[CTyankee]

74. It looks like you have gotten Yoshi's situation stabilized. I just wish there were a place for TTW

to get more and better help than she has gotten in the past. Without family/friends/partners support in the lives of any of us I don't think we'd fare any better than she has. I know I wouldn't be able to. I just wish there were a place she could go where she would be treated with kindness and with help. I know women's shelters are mostly places for victims of domestic violence but perhaps one of them would be able to give her guidance and referral.

What an awful situation. You and your ex have been a shining beacon of hope through all of this.

[KittyWampus]

76. If it helps persuade TTW to sign over Yoshi- if he bites someone he would be put down.

Or on a short road to that terrible end.

Thanks for helping her with her beloved pet.

I know it's hard to lose a fur-baby for any reason.

[virgdem]

77. My admiration for your efforts to help TTW and Yoshi...

knows no bounds. You have gone above and beyond the call of duty to help a fellow member of DU who has gone through hell and back to deal with an impossibly difficult situation. You and your ex are to be commended on taking on the task of assisting with the placement of a large and somewhat difficult breed of dog. I have followed this story for a long time and I am so glad that you and your ex stepped in to help TTW. You have done nothing wrong and you approached the situation with a clear head. There are those on this thread (the usual gang of naysayers and idiots) who will try to demean your efforts or TTW's efforts to deal with the situation. Please ignore them and continue to do what you can for TTW and Yoshi. I look forward to more updates on her situation. Thank you again for your valiant efforts!

[TDale313]

78. You and your ex did the right thing.

I feel horrible for TTW, and genuinely wish her well, and I really wish she and Yoshi could have been together, but this is best for Yoshi, and keeping him at your ex's was not a good option. I truly hope TTW can get back on her feet- this will be a huge blow- Yoshi was her lifeline.

[dsc]

84. I am so sorry to read this

I knew from growing up that Akita's weren't to be triffled with (though we used a different word) due to one in our neighborhood. But I didn't realize they were as bad as all that. I hope TTW sees the light here and agrees to the rescue as it seems to be the only viable option for this dog. In any case you really tried, which is more than the rest of us, and you need to keep that in mind when armchair quarterbacks criticize your passing technique.

[stage left]

85. I think you and your ex did absolutely the best you could.

And more than many would have done. It's my hope that, at some point, TTW and Yoshi can be reunited. I can't imagine how hard it's been for both of them.

[onecaliberal]

89. Thank you for the time and effort to help Yoshi and TTW.

My heart is broken for both. Hopefully the Akita rescue will end up with Yoshi. Just so sad.

[Raine1967]

93. YOu are a very kind and compassionate person.

I think that everyone who has done their best to help TTW and Yoshi are the best examples of the good we can do for those in need.

[Generic Other]

95. Above and beyond the call

You and your ex are kind and caring people. The dog's fate is way less precarious than it was a few days ago.

[Person 2713]

101. Thank you for getting Yoshi on his way to the rescue that knows his breed well

You and your ex are dog Angels

[wildheart]

103. Bravo!!

I have been reading DU for years, and this finally compelled me to sign up. I have been following this saga, and am so impressed with the compassion and the lengths that you went to for this dog.

You did absolutely the right thing, and could not possibly have done anything more. Aggressive breed dogs are not to be taken lightly, and only a group who is very familiar with them should be handling them.

And that is all I have to say.

[irisblue]

114. wildheart, welcome to DU

[wildheart]

116. thank you!

Most likely will be lurking, as before, but this thread really touched me.

[Kali]

106. I think you did the right thing.

There are times as a parent I have had to step in and become a hated enemy. It is painful but knowing the eventual outcomes of various paths enables one to make tough decisions. I hope that TTW will come to see this was the best alternative of yes, mostly all shitty possible ones.

I hope she can get through the pain, anger, and grief quickly and even better use the bad energy to a better purpose. The whole situation is so distressing and underscores much of the need for real safety nets in our society. The cracks that people can so quickly plummet through is not a good reflection on our country.

Most people surprise themselves with the strength they actually have. Survival is a strong drive in what keeps LIFE going. She will find it, I am sure.

Good thoughts to all concerned. Thank you for helping.

[Sunlei]

108. I love the breed, considered one but it's true they usually aren't good with other dogs.

I'm glad you found an experienced Akita Rescue to help, I bet they find a wonderful home/foster for him.

Must be very hard on TTW but it has always been important to TTW that Yoshi is taken care of and happy.

[PoliticAverse]

112. Kudos to you and your ex for your efforts in this difficult situation. n/t

[Spazito]

113. msanthrope, you and your ex are incredible!

I am in awe of both of you, going far beyond where many would go to try and help both TTW and Yoshi. You and your ex made the right decision, as heartbreaking as it was, imo, in putting Yoshi in the shelter while still working to try and get him into the Akita rescue. I am hopeful it will happen and am hoping as well that TTW can get into a more secure, stable place in her life.

[herding cats]

117. I deeply respect you and your ex for all you've done to help Yoshi.

My heart breaks for the pain TTW is going through and the confusion and fear Yoshi must be feeling, but I can see how what you did was the right thing to do under the circumstances. I know it wasn't easy for you two to make this decision, but you were left with no other choices. It's a comfort to know that there are two compassionate adults working as advocates for the care of the poor guy. TTW isn't the only one whose life is being sent into a tailspin after all. Poor Yoshi can't understand why everything has had to change and the stress has to be taking a toll on his ability to cope with everything.

You've given Yoshi a chance, which if we're being honest looking at the circumstances surrounding his life at the moment he didn't have before you two intervened. I thank you both, and everyone else involved for all of your efforts. I just hope it all ends for the best for poor Yoshi. It sounds like it might now thanks to you two.

Thank you both for your efforts on Yoshi's behalf again. You're amazingly kind people and I hope this kindness comes back to you both someday.

[pnwmom]

118. "a dude with a goofy black lab trying to care for a wolf in the middle of a city.”

That about sums it up.

I'm glad you were able to get breed-specific advice. Friends of ours fell in love with the look of the breed and got one as a puppy. They knew that they are guard dogs and need special training. They raised her carefully, taking her to obedience classes and doing everything "right." But one day they took her to the park and a bunch of excited children surrounded the dog. The dog freaked out and bit a little boy in the face. He hadn't even touched her -- he was just part of the group of happy kids.

So you and your ex did the absolute best you could, but an Akita raised under very stressful circumstances, with a tense, anxious owner, would be almost impossible for an ordinary dog person to handle.

Especially a goofy lab owner, with other pets and a child to worry about. As the owner of a goofy black lab-mix myself, I know exactly what they meant. It wouldn't prepare me to own an Akita.

I had been wondering why people closer to TTW, like her family members, were so unwilling to help her with this. It's becoming clearer now. They probably all knew the challenge Yoshi would be, and TTW has lost so much she just couldn't face the truth.

You have taken so much on by getting involved in this, despite the risks. I commend you -- and send good thoughts your way.

[underahedgerow]

125. I believe

her relatives may have been more of a hindrance than help. There are some complex issues there.

TTW is a normal human being caught up in a spiral of unfortunate events. We can't all do it perfect, that's for sure, and she did the very best she could with what she has to work with. It happens to the best of us, and in particular to those who are more fragile. Some of us are made of some very tough stuff, and some of us just can't handle all the crap that gets tossed our way.

Those of us that are the tough stuff do what we can to help those who need it, when we can. Sometimes people just need a little help, sometimes they need a lot of help. In the absence of helping out, it would be nice if some of the trolls here would just keep out of it if they can't be constructive, compassionate or helpful. (not directed at you!!!! you're very nice!)

[easttexaslefty]

217. ....

[daredtowork]

119. Completely Understandable

I thank you so much for trying to intervene in this situation.

The very first time TTW posted, and I could see no clear "wrap-around" resources for her, I was looking for someone from DU to go vouch for her situation and translate it to the community, and also possibly to help her find some wrap-around organization that would help her get back on top of things.

This is where the loss of the full service social work profession is really devastating. This is also why I keep pointing to the underlying loss of housing stabilization in that gap in "welfare reform". If TTW could have stabilized her housing, it would have been easier to pivot on those other things instead of piling one loss on top of another.

I agree it will take TTW months to dig her way out of this situation. That's why the people who say "wasn't TTW just here last month" make me so mad. They don't understand this spiral at all. If there is any way possible, please try to make a chain of documentation that will eventually allow TTW to eventually get Yoshi back so she doesn't feel like she was tricked into giving Yoshi up.

[tblue37]

157. +1. nt

[TBF]

120. I've been of the opinion that TTW is not a "scam" -

she is a person in need of help (likely mental illness but who am I to judge) - and compassion. The crazy economic policies in this country (starting with f*cking Ronald Reagan) have driven many people to the edge through little or no fault of their own. And I have no doubt that you and your ex have been careful legally and done the best you can for Yoshi. As someone on the edges of Lab rescue (I have adopted 3 so far and help w/transport sometimes) I know how difficult this can be.

Please let us know if there is anything DUers can do to help. It sounds like individual donations to help TTW (if people are able/willing) or the B.E.A.R. rescue (again, if folks have interest) would be the best way to go.

((Hugs)) You went above and beyond afaic.

[cwydro]

123. I will get in touch with the shelter where Yoshi is now.

As another poster suggested, we can make donations there and specify Yoshi as the reason.

I know my local shelter allowed this the last time I was in touch with them.

[onecaliberal]

128. Awesome. Will you let us know about that so we can do the same.

Thank you.

[TBF]

130. Sounds good -

if they will do this let us know here or with an OP. Yoshi is going to be one well cared for dog!

[cwydro]

147. I will; it may take me a couple of days to do.

I'll get back in touch.

[pnwmom]

145. And if it is mental illness, that increases her need rather than reduces it. The system should be

set up to take care of mentally ill people -- without warehousing them -- but instead it sends them out into the streets.

[TBF]

170. Yup - more victims of Reagan's "Revolution" nt

[REP]

137. You've been put in an impossible situation and have made the kindest decisions

I can only imagine the stress you've both been through, trying to help someone with her dog, only to find the dog's temperament makes him dangerous to you, your pets and child - and not being allowed to deliver the dog directly to a rescue group. You've gone so far out of your way to do so much, and still managed to find an option that offers the most hope for the dog.

There are few things harder than surrendering a beloved companion, but sometimes it's the only option to make ensure the continued care and safety of the companion. This seems like one of those unfortunate times, and I hope it has a good resolution.

[shireen]

138. Many of us are just a few paychecks away from TTW's situation ....

It is extremely hard to survive without a support system. And TTW's case is excruciatingly painful because Yoshi seems to be the only family TTW has in her life.

What an ordeal! Thank you, msanthrope. I'm so touched by what you and your ex have done for Yoshi.

I hope TTW and Yoshi can be reunited at some point in the future. But right now, both of them need stability and strength to rebuild their lives. My thoughts and well-wishes are with both of them.

To anyone reading my post ... if you have pets, please make sure they have godparents that can take them in if something happens to you. I've been holding off getting a dog because I've not yet found someone I trust who will care for it , or make sure it goes to a good home, if something happens to me.

[virgdem]

166. There are places that you can contact...

that will care for your animal in the event that you pre-decease the animal. I have no one to take care of my cat(s) in that case and I've been with the Safe Haven Surviving Pet Care program with North Shore Animal League in Port Washington, NY for over 20 years. You would put them in your will and they will in turn, take care of your animal until someone adopts, or if it not adopted, it will stay with them for the remainder of its life. There are other organizations that offer the same type of care. Bottom line-there are options out there. If you need any more info, just PM me.

[PasadenaTrudy]

139. Akitas are a tough breed.

They are a one person dog, I think, very protective. I dated a guy once with an Akita and the dog didn't like me getting near his guy. I don't trust them, personally.

[a la izquierda]

284. My husband is a dog-walker

and a general all around animal guy. He's walked the most difficult of dogs. He is leery of Akitas. He will normally not meet one for the first time in the owner's home. They're too territorial. Even after meeting one, he generally does a few visits before doing a one on one with the dog.

[PasadenaTrudy]

314. There's one down the street from me

Always in his yard, with his (or her?) nose poking out under the fence. My little dog is so scared, I have to carry her past. She loves dogs too, even big ones. This Akita, though..nope.

[cwydro]

316. TTW made several posts in previous threads that the dog

would attack the plumber or other workmen (strangers) who came in her house.

So if she's living in a rooming house - this does not bode well for either of them.

[PasadenaTrudy]

339. No,

it certainly doesn't

[roody]

142. Thanks for doing all you did.

Last edited Thu Aug 6, 2015, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Yoshi is where he should be. This is a lesson in not breeding dogs and not supporting breeding.

[Liberal_in_LA]

143. poor TTW.I wish her well...a home that allows her to be with Yoshi

[missingthebigdog]

148. Do you know how awesome you are?

It is clear from reading your posts that you have a lot on your plate. A law practice, vision problems, a child with autism. This dog wasn't your job or your responsibility. There are certainly people here who are in a better position to take on something like this.

That you would step up and do this, despite all of that, is a testament to the caliber of person that you are. You have assured this animal the best possible outcome given the situation. My hat is off to you.

[tblue37]

151. You did everything you could--and your ex especially went above and beyond.

If TTW can get enough help from her GFM page to get set up in another place, one where she can have Yoshi with her, would that work, do you think?

At least Yoshi is safe now. But I do worry that TTW will never recover emotionally if she has lost him permanently.

If he is fostered by this rescue group, does that mean that the surrender is permanent, or is there a chance of her getting him back if she can find appropriate housing soon enough?

Her GFM page is still $2000 short of the goal:
http://www.gofundme.com/slumlord-escape

Do you think that a significant increase in donations--maybe even going significantly beyond the stated goal--might help her get established in a suitable place and even give her time to find steady employment?

[Quackers]

155. You did great!

You have done everything in your power to make the situation right. TTW is not in a place, physically, mentally, or emotionally to take care of Yoshi. From what I've read over the last several months, I believe TTW herself needs someone to help make decisions for her and Yoshi. In my opinion, you've done the right thing, however, TTW may not be happy with you for some time. Best of luck!

[tblue37]

158. In case you miss this edit on my original reply to your OP:

TTW's GFM page is still almost $2000 short of the original goal:
http://www.gofundme.com/slumlord-escape

Do you think that a significant increase in donations--maybe even going significantly beyond the stated goal--might help her get established in a suitable place and even give her time to find steady employment?

[msanthrope]

159. I simply don't know. The last time I had it a civil conversation with TTW

It seemed that although the GoFundMe page had reflected she had received $1,700 she felt that was misleading since most of that money had already been spent. so I'm suggesting that the amount she needs maybe more than $2000. TTW is understandably very angry with me but when we did discuss removing I did note to her that most Pennsylvania landlord will expect first last current months rent and can charge a pet deposit..... if they accept pets at all. I also suggested to her that the consequence of having an eviction on her record would mean that most landlords would be reluctant to rent to her unfortunately under Pennsylvania law that's a perfectly good reason to refuse a rental to someone a prior eviction.

[tblue37]

160. Here in cheap rent Kansas I had to pay $1400 up front to rent a place with my cats, and

since I already was living here, I didn't have to come up with any utility deposits for the move. If I had, it would have been much more.

The fact that she has so little in her GFM account (and even less than what appears on the page) makes me truly sad. I would have thought DU would step up for a member in such a terrible situation, especially since the DU community has done so in the past for others.

I fear for TTW, and I fear for Yoshi if she remains intransigent and unrealistic about his options.

[msanthrope]

162. I think TTW not only needs financial help but helping setting financial goals.

the dog walker that I hired is trying to assist by finding out social services and transitional housing options.

[tblue37]

164. That is so touching. A hired dog walker who does not even know TTW is

stepping up to try to help her--I assume because the person is a dog lover and wants to see Yoshi safe and happy now that she knows him, but also because the person is a decent human being who hates to see other people suffer unnecessary hardship caused by an inhumane political/socioeconomic system.

[msanthrope]

167. I hope TTW listens to her. nt

[pnwmom]

173. It might be a combination of not having enough funds and making mistakes with what she does have.

Which is understandable with a person who seems to have some kind of mental illness -- but it is so hard to help someone whose mental illness tends to alienate her from others.

[Tipperary]

163. She should not be angry at you. That really seems to indicate that she

is not thinking rationally. She seems to be in denial about everything at this point , perhaps understandably. I think you and Moosepoop were acting in good faith. It is obvious she can not care for the dog at this time or even herself. A sad situation all round.

[msanthrope]

165. Rightly or wrongly, TTW is extremely upset at me and ex. I'm hoping she can calm down

And focus but this has been a devastating blow to her.

[MoonRiver]

168. You're doing all the right things for Yoshi.

That's the bottom line.

[irisblue]

169. you did all the right things.

[tblue37]

171. When my grandmother suffered a stroke in 1985, she adamantly insisted that we never, ever

stick her in a nursing home.

Although I was very poor and running a home daycare at the time (while also teaching college as an adjunct), I took Grandma into my apartment to take care of her. She was diabetic, so I had to learn to give her insulin shots each day, but I was quite willing to do that, even though it terrified me to think I might do it wrong.

I figured that with a daycare, I was home much of the time, and when I had to be in the classroom, I had a well-trained regular substitute who was also willing to make sure Grandma was OK.

This worked out well for a couple of months. I didn't mind the extra work, and my siblings helped with the extra expenses.

But after a couple of months, Grandma got sick and it developed into pneumonia, dangerous at any age, but especially so when the person is 87.

She was admitted to the hospital, but the doctor told us he would not be willing to release her unless she was going to a facility with medical personnel capable of monitoring her and taking care of her, because the pneumonia had left her too frail and too susceptible to further illness to be cared for by someone with no medical training. He also though she would probably have another, even more serious stroke soon, and he wanted to make sure she was in a place that could respond quickly and effectively if she did.

With all my siblings pooling resources so cost would not seriously limit our options, we found a very nice place just about one mile from my sister's home, where my (at that time) stay-at-home sister and her kids could visit every day and stay for some time when they did. I live only 30 minutes away, so I was able to visit her every weekend, too. My sister had just had a baby girl, so she would take her little daughter to visit each time, as well as her two sons.

Grandma was so furious that we had put her in a nursing home despite her repeatedly stated objections to that possibility that she often wouldn't even speak to us when we visited, and although she would look at the kids, she sometimes wouldn't even look at us.

We had no other choice, of course. The doctor refused to even consider releasing her from the hospital without a guarantee that she would go someplace where she could receive appropriate medical care, and he was absolutely right. Even if he had not insisted, we would have had to admit that there was no real choice. All we could do was to make sure to find a really nice place and then visit her as much as possible--and we did visit a lot. My out-of-state siblings even made periodic visits, while my sister and her kids practically lived at the nursing home while Grandma was there. (The kids were immensely popular with the other residents!)

While there, Grandma absolutely refused to socialize with the other residents, many of whom made a genuine effort to reach out to her. She just complained that she had no interest in palling around with a bunch of "old people."

A couple of months after moving into the nursing home, Grandma suffered the catastrophic stroke that the doctor had feared was imminent. I am pretty sure that her anger over being put into a nursing home had more than a little to do with how quickly she ended up having that stroke. We continued to visit her and to take the children to see her, but by then she was paralyzed and largely unresponsive. A couple of weeks after that stroke, Grandma died. I am pretty sure she never forgave us before she died.

I think TTW is in a similar place emotionally. She feels betrayed and angry at those who are doing everything they can think of to help her and Yoshi, just as Grandma felt about us.

It breaks my heart even now to remember how Grandma felt, and it breaks my heart to think about how TTW must feel.

[pnwmom]

178. You know you did everything you could for your Grandma, even though she couldn't appreciate it.

We feel so fortunate that our own mother never drew a line in the sand like that. It was stressful enough trying to find the eight situation for her after she broke her second hip and wound up in a wheelchair. As it turns out, we found a wonderful place -- but if she had already decided against it, she could have made herself miserable anywhere.

I hope I remember that when I'm her age!

[Person 2713]

375. I have that as one of my goals when I get older .To remember gratitude when help is needed

I hope I remember that when I get old though! I try to be grateful now and hope to never stop.

[Demit]

184. I hope on some level your grandmother sensed that you all cared.

The same thing happened with my elderly aunt, who up until her mid-eighties was living independently in her own small home. Then senile dementia started to take hold. I had to call for an ambulance one day when I found her in bed seriously dehydrated, talking to the "man who lived in the picture." At the hospital they evaluated her and recommended a nursing home (I was her only living relative--well, the only one who cared--but, living alone, I wasn't equipped financially to bring her to live with me).

I would visit every week, and most times she was lucid, but she never forgave me for "putting her in prison." I bought & wrapped up a bagful of Christmas presents, but because I couldn't tell if seeing me really did upset her, I asked the staff deliver them and say they were from her secret santa. She was in the home for about a year when she passed. I sat with her at the end, though she was unconscious. I just hope on some level she knew I was there, and that I did care the whole time, and that I didn't everwant her to be "in prison." It's something you have to believe, you know?

[tblue37]

188. Yeah, I have to hold on to that. nt

[Aerows]

212. We had to put my grandmother in a nursing home

She was getting into trouble, doing things that she should not have been doing and getting injured.

She was not happy about it. I went by, though, every single day after school to see how she was doing. She LOVED Wendy's hamburgers. I brought her one (and then brought her and her friend one, too because apparently her friend loved them too) whenever I could.

Eventually, she managed to get used to the place and liked it there. I heard more gossip than TMZ.

[bettyellen]

224. It is not always a bad thing- if they have some wits about them enough to socialize and can take

advantage of it AND it is well run. For late stage Alzheimers like my Mom, it is kind of a nightmare, they have to strap them in at night.
I was broken hearted to see that when I started to shop around for nursing homes for my Mom. She passed right before I signed over her house to one.

[pnwmom]

241. Just for the record, nursing home regulations prohibit restraining residents without

their permission or their representative's. And it can only be done for the patient's benefit, not the convenience of the nursing home (i.e., to save them work).

http://www.nursinghomesabuseblog.com/frequently-asked-questions/can-a-nursing-home-tie-my-dad-to-a-wheelchair-if-he-has-had-episodes-of-wandering-around-the-facility/

Restraints among nursing home residents are only permitted when a physician orders them to protect the resident and with the approval of the resident or his representative. Federal law prohibits nursing homes from using restraints for the convenience of the facility or as a way of punishing the patient. (Code of Federal Regulations, 483.13(a).

A restraint is considered to be: "any manual method or physical or mechanical device, material or equipment attached or adjacent to the resident’s body that the individual cannot remove easily which restricts freedom of movement or normal access to one’s body." According to this definition, almost all medical equipment found in a nursing home could be used in this capacity to restrain a patient.

Rather than rely on restraint devises, staff in the nursing home should re-direct patients who have a tendency to wander. If staff are unsuccessful in their attempt to re-direct, they should use electronic devices such as bed / chair alarms to alert them when a patient begins to move from the area where he was sitting / sleeping and the help the staff keep track of his whereabouts.

Compared with the nursing homes of the past, the use of restraints in nursing homes today is relatively uncommon. Much of the reduction in use of restraints can be credited to studies that have demonstrated that the use of restraints in nursing home patients can be not only de-humanizing, but also downright dangerous.

[bettyellen]

244. I know, because we discussed it. They did not feel they could handle her without restraints, so it

was kind of them to admit that to me that was their common practice. At home we had a high sided hospital bed with lots of cushioning, but they said they had no similar option. I also saw how people at her level (severely impaired) were clustered tightly into a corner cluster of wheel chairs for "recreation".
It was a very nice highly rated place. But there was no improvement in quality of life, which there could be for many less ill. And they would feed her at least, whereas her rehab before had not bothered at all, but that was about it.

[Adrahil]

277. I have to say this. I donated to her before. But...

I will not donate to her again if she cannot put the needs of her dog before herself. I love my pets. It would break my heart to part with them. But sometimes reality HAS to trump emotion!

[DawgHouse]

174. It's sad that they aren't able to be together.

He was in a bad place at the doggie day care so something needed to be done. I hope that things can somehow work out and she can be with him again soon. In the meantime, he needs to be cared for in a safe environment.

[steve2470]

175. you're an inspiration to DU

You and your ex have gone well beyond the call of duty to help a beautiful dog in trouble and TTW by extension. It's a very sad situation, but you two have done the best that can be done under difficult circumstances. It would be nice if one of the nicer billionaires would simply grant TTW the money to live with Yoshi for a year or two years while she finds the best work possible and the best living situation possible. Alas, one can dream. Thank you for helping her and Yoshi, and may others at DU (and beyond) step up when they can to help other humans and animals.

[pnwmom]

179. There are millions in similar situations. So the real solution isn't a nice billionaire

but what is often derisively termed a "nanny state" that properly takes care of people with mental illness.

[steve2470]

181. true

At that moment I was only thinking about TTW. Sadly, I think we Americans and we at DU will be witnesses to many more stories like TTW's unless our society makes a radical U-turn.

[msanthrope]

180. Second Update in Op.....

Yoshi has been reclaimed from the shelter as TTW was allowed to do under Pennsylvania law. This was against the advice of the people at the shelter and at the Akita rescue. I do not know what she is going to do.

[steve2470]

182. Thanks for the update

I fear this is very bad news for both Yoshi and TTW. You and your ex have done all you can. I think everyone involved has.

[msanthrope]

183. Yes...I think everyone involved has done the limit of what can be done. nt

[Demit]

189. That is a very sad development.

A yeoman effort on your part. All that work. She has her own agency, and it's up to her now, but that must be so wrenching to watch up close. I hope she has a change of heart & realizes how valuable the advice was that she was getting from the professionals.

You did so much. I hope she realizes it someday, and soon.

[randome]

191. And you tried to do still more. You are awesome.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[MoonRiver]

186. What the...

Is she going to live on the streets with Yoshi? Very disturbing information.

[No Vested Interest]

192. Maybe in her car? nt

[MoonRiver]

213. Does she have a car? n/t

[No Vested Interest]

216. I thought I had read on the earlier posts from TT, but I could have it confused

with another of the personal stories I've read here.
Someone here will know and perhaps clarify, especially if I have her mixed up in my mind with another.
If I have it wrong, I'm sorry and will delete.

[MoonRiver]

220. No problem one way or the other. Please don't delete.

It's a very confusing situation. I think we all just want to help TWW and sweet little Yoshi.

[bettyellen]

226. she did, yes. and she made two trips to visit Yoshi, so I think still does.

[No Vested Interest]

190. Sometimes we have to step back, and this may be one of those times.

I feel very badly for TTW, for Yoshi, and for Msanthrope and her ex, as well as for Moosepoop and the many others, inclusing DUers and those who have donated to the gofund.me account.

We all have seen people, both those close to us and those whom we only know of remotely, make decisions that appear to not be in their best interest.
They have a right to make those decisions.
It hurts those who would make a different or even better, wiser decision. But we must step back and let the individual act.

My thoughts are offered for a good outcome for TTW and Yoshi, and gratitude for all those who have shown empathy, both materially and in thought.

[pnwmom]

205. Unfortunately, she isn't just making a decision for herself -- she's making it for Yoshi.

And from the description here, it sounds like he might end up attacking someone, wind up in a kill-shelter and get put down.

[Ineeda]

237. Yoshi attacking is a real possibility and yes, the poor dog

would end up paying the ultimate price for that. Bad enough. But an innocent person, as in human being, (or another beloved pet) could also suffer horrible consequences of a stressed out, unstable dog. This could be catastrophic and maybe even criminal. People have been badly disfigured and even killed by dangerous breeds. Akitas are considered such.

[gwheezie]

194. This is unfortunate

I don't think there's anything else to do.

[StevieM]

225. To be fair to TTW, she did make it clear that she was not looking to relinquish Yoshi.

The point to someone taking Yoshi was the exact opposite of the result that you guys were heading towards. It's not like TTY was unaware of the rescue option, or in need of help in accomplishing it.

It was very decent of you to make an effort to help. I am sorry it didn't work out.

[DawgHouse]

229. Yes, in fact that was one thing she was especially worried about.

It's a terrible situation all around.

[AtheistCrusader]

238. Part of the reason TTW will not succeed.

It's simply not going to work. She is not making rational decisions. She is setting herself up for failure. I wouldn't say intentionally, but that will be the net result. She needs a conservator to make decisions on her behalf, and likely, professional medical help. This is not a 'simple' case of hard financial times. That much is brutally clear.

If one actually loves a pet, one must do right by it. She isn't. She's treating it like a comforting piece of property, as if it doesn't have intrinsic living traits of its own. Dozens have already spoken to the difficulties with providing for that type of dog, so I'm not going to echo.

Send money if you wish, if you feel it is right. I predict it is futile, until there is someone in the picture tasked/trusted by TTW to make decisions on her behalf, mental health care, or both appointed by a judge. Till then, adding cash is, in my opinion, not helping anything, and might actually serve to extend the misery.


If that dog lashes out at a single human, the outcome for TTW will be far worse than any suffering that might have been coupled to placing that dog in a new home permanently, even against her current wishes.

[msanthrope]

252. I cannot tell you how accurate this post is---TTW screamed at me that Yoshi is "her property" and

that me, ex, and the shelter are "thieves." She would not speak to me about what Yoshi needed. In fact, she is attempting to pursue criminal charges against ex and me. They will come to nothing, but there's a pattern here with people who help....see the doggie daycare episode.

She does need a conservator. Ex, who met her, described her physical appearance and affect in a fairly clinical manner, and there is no doubt there are many issues going on.

I think DUers might wish for an accounting of past monies before sending more.

[AtheistCrusader]

256. I know how you both feel.

I know many already said you did the right thing, the best thing but, it can't hurt to hear it a few more times.

I probably seem a bit jaded to some. I know that horrible indecision; is this person that is asking me for help going to accept meaningful, material help and build upon that and go forward, or, is this person going to take what they can get, waste it, and then throw their failure back in my face as if I did them wrong...?

Life really, really sucks sometimes.

I suppose, as TTW does not appear competent to care for the dog, so too is she likely not competent enough to be truly responsible for her behavior. Who knows. If she gets the full meal deal help she really needs, she may someday come Back and thank you for trying.

Ultimately. If the dog issue goes south, like, if someone gets hurt or the state has to take the dog out of the situation, that could lead to her being evaluated by the courts and might result in some of that help actually being brought to bear. Which feels like a shitty thing to be a little hopeful of, but, without family involvement that could assume custody/steward/conservator, the state is the last effective safety net.

[msanthrope]

257. Your last paragraph is everything I fear most. But it is out of my hands right now....

I have to accept and move on. That's not easy, but it needs to be done.

I will say that one good thing has come from this---I think the DU community has a more realistic picture of situation, and if help is offered, it might end up being more targeted and useful.

[Sunlei]

261. If I may suggest one thing after reading this post.

Please check with the Humane society and confirm she actually picked up the dog. If she didn't please let the Akita rescue know so they can proceed with taking him from the humane society & rehoming him. Thanks.

[msanthrope]

263. They called ex to tell him. Apparently, it was quite the scene. nt

[Sunlei]

278. Thank you, your family did the best you could to help her with the dog.

[Person 2713]

378. Oh dear . Peace now to ex and you for caring and then enduring this

I got involved with a rescue from a poster on a pole and did not know the people I was contacting were crazy and dragged on for a month or two. Long story...
It was a terrible encounter that haunted me for a long time. That is one of the reasons I have posted on this thread . Take care

[Tipperary]

267. Thank you for that last paragraph because although I had withheld

judgment, I have also come to that conclusion. I think at this point it would not help. There seem to be some serious issues that TTW is grappling with. I'm very sad for her dog who will suffer because of her poor choices. I also can not believe that she has threatened you with criminal action. She does not have any basis for that.

[suffragette]

309. Sadly, I think this post speaks volumes about TTW's entire situation

And about her need for connection to the many resources a place like the women's center offers or could guide her to as well as her complete rejection of contacting them.

[shanti]

393. sadly

no good deed goes unpunished.

[herding cats]

228. You did everything you could do.

I'm sorry to hear of this latest development, even if I'm not entirely surprised by it. Desperate people do desperate things. I'm not going judge TTW for this; I just wish her and Yoshi the best.

You did all you could, way more than most people would do if faced with the same situation. Now all you can do is let go and know you tried your best.

[Adrahil]

193. TTW seems incapable of putting Yoshi's need beforee her own.

That's sad, but you've done what you can. Good luck to them.

[Aerows]

195. Akita's are large, guardian dogs

You have to have experience with large, guardian dogs to be able to handle them. Large guardian dogs will lay their life down for their owner, but anything strange is considered a threat - particularly if they haven't been well socialized.

That TTW decided to reclaim him is an accident waiting to happen. If she has nowhere to go, and still keeps him with her, it's just a matter of time before he defends her against something he perceives as a threat and all hell breaks loose.

He really needs to go to a home with someone familiar with dealing with a large guardian dog. A Labrador Retriever is absolutely NOTHING like a Doberman Pinscher, though they are similar in size. The mindset and skill set to deal with them is completely different.

I had a humongous Doberman that was the sweetest guy in the world - until you threatened his territory. He took a six foot wooden fence down when a teenage kid took a shortcut through the backyard. Luckily the kid got away. He was in obedience class from the moment he was grown enough to take it. I was roller blading with him and a large dog barked at him as we passed, and he was ready to defend me with his life - I ran into a parked car trying to get him to stop because he was that strong.

It is night and day dealing with a large guardian breed and just a regular dog.

This is a disaster in the making, her taking the dog and having no stable home for him. It's a disaster for her, it's a disaster for Yoshi, and it is a disaster for whatever poor soul Yoshi attacks mistakenly thinking he is protecting his beloved mistress.

[msanthrope]

201. TTW is currently in a home where there has been violence....in fact, a housemate assaulted her. I

am hoping this is not where Yoshi is being taken.

[Aerows]

209. Me too

because that will NOT end well for Yoshi, TTW or the person mauled.

[pnwmom]

203. And I wouldn't be surprised if that large dog was part of the problem the landlord had with her.

If I were a landlord with a tenant who owned a dog that threatened other people, I would want it out of there.

[msanthrope]

207. She told me that her current landlord would not have the dog. HHer current situation, her housemate

assaulted her.

[NaturalHigh]

196. You did your best, and we all appreciate your efforts.

I'm sorry TTW chose to take a different path in this. Frankly I think she needs some serious mental health counseling herself.

[demmiblue]

200. This is all so very sad.

They are obviously quite bonded... I think fear and desperation (as well as other factors) are clouding TTW's judgement. I can only imagine how she feels. I hope she can come to the right decision regarding Yoshi's future.

So, so sad.

[onecaliberal]

204. I'm so sad and scared for them both.

Yoshi is in need of healthcare.

[ladyVet]

206. You and your ex went above and beyond,

and I want to thank you again for all your efforts (and all the others who have helped or tried to help TTW).

It's really sad that she came and took Yoshi out of a safe place, but there's nothing that could have been done to stop her. We can only hope things work out for them both.

At some point, you have to let go.

[tammywammy]

210. That's a sad second update.

I really hope she takes him to the rescue group. Yoshi deserves a stable home, and I worry with his temperament he'll attack someone or another animal.

[nadine_mn]

214. You and your ex did an amazing job for Yoshi

I know enough about the Akita breed to know unlike some breeds, very special care has to be made as to who owns one and where they live. They have a high prey drive, are very loyal, and are guard dogs. Those things make placement in another home very difficult.


You and your ex did the best thing for your family, you did your best to help TTW in a very difficult situation and more importantly and I cannot stress this enough - you did the best for Yoshi. He needed to be an environment that was safe for him, with people who know how to care for an Akita and to live his best life.

Our dogs and cat are everything to us. We don't go anywhere on vacation if they can't come with, we cannot imagine a day without them. I can only imagine how hard this must be for TTW to lose everything and have to part with Yoshi.

That said, your last update really saddened me. I know TTW was acting out of love but sadly I cannot see any good coming out of taking Yoshi from the rescue - he needs a stable and safe home. I truly hope it works out. And by not seeing any good, I mean I am worried that due to the stress TTW is under (which is understandable) and how it sounds like Yoshi is so in tune with her, I am worried that Yoshi could attack or bite someone.

[nolabear]

215. It's very hard to face that sometimes people can't help you help them.

I haven't said much about TTW. Being in the mental health profession makes me cautious. But it's important to note, I think, that it's easy to come down on someone who both asks for help and makes it all but impossible to help. That's happened a lot here by people who don't understand. But it's a very real problem for many who spiral down into things like homelessness and addiction (not implying anything about her here at all). I believe she can't help what she's doing. And you've done a yeoman's job of trying to help. This is why the old conservative "hand up not a handout" trope is bs. There are people who, at some point, don't have the wherewithal to use real world help. I fear for her, but sometimes you have to let it be and hope she finds something permanent to hold onto. Poor Yoshi. Poor TTW. *sigh*

[CTyankee]

219. I fear the endgame of this story...TTW is so beaten down it seems hard to see how she

get up enough fight to help herself and Yoshi. God, this is bad. Perhaps there is someone out there in her parameters who can help...

[daredtowork]

233. Me, too - but I understand her mentality

It's intolerable for her to think of any other option, so she is trying to hold out until someone helps her. There is no other alternateive for her.

The Judge Judies on this thread think there are alternatives now and in the past, but they weren't real alternatives under the minimal terms of TTW's life. I have a similar issue going on with my books: I'm an introvert who has a close relationship with my books. I write in my books like diaries - they represent all my ideas and dreams in life. Judge Judies often tell me I'm poor and I must sell my books. If I have to move or become homeless, I will lose them anyway. One peer counselor wanted me to rip the covers off all my books and scan them into the cloud just in case I ended up in a situation like TTW, and my books were taken from me. However desperate I get, you won't see me begging any of you for help because I know those Judge Judies are waiting to pounce: to demand I sell my books as punishment for being poor instead of "panhandling".

As committed as I am to keeping my books (I will make any excuses I have to and try to dodge your scrutiny), they are not living, breathing companions. Yoshi is a family member to TTW.

This is why people getting on their soapbox about "what's good for the dog" need to STFU. Would they dare to say that about TTW's baby? No, in that case the only acceptable solution would be to keep the family together. When they opine about the dog at the expense of TTW, they are basically being rightwingers trying to punish TTW for the Welfare Queen "luxury" of owning a dog.

Yoshi is obviosly TTW's companion animal, emotional support, and best friend at a time when she has lost her home and all her possessions. She tried to trust someone would look after him better than she could, and within a day Yoshi was on his way to a rescue organization!

The worst part of this is if TTW becomes homeless, which she probably will, most shelters won't take dogs, much less a dog like this.

At bottom here, this is a case study in poverty/welfare problems I wanted Obama - and I want our next Democratic President - to address. There is a serious lack of effort to keep at risk people in their current housing and provide them with wrap around services. There needs to be other rent bridge programs besides traditional unemployment insurance. Of course if we had a mincome we could do away with means testing bureaucracy and mean Judge Judy threads all together. Combine a mincome with a basic right to housing and food: bye bye homeles problem.

My secular equvalent of prayers go out to TTW.

[AtheistCrusader]

239. It's not 'punishment'. That is ridiculously unfair.

Your books can't lash out and disfigure a child. Your books require minimal care; no fire, no water, physical security. That's it.

Yes, some of us take the axiom 'your possessions end up owning you' quite seriously and view liabilities that prevent mobility as a problem or an obstacle to escaping poverty, but TTW's problem is a living creature, not a book(s). It is not unfair to your books to put them in storage, or hide them, or move them around however. It is unfair to do that to a living being. Your books aren't engineered to hostility and extreme protectionism. Nor have your books exhibited these traits. Your books can't land you in jail by doing something of their own volition. That dog can. Your books are not a liability in any sense comparable to the dog.

That dog could, under the right circumstances, kill someone.

Would they dare to say that about TTW's baby?

There are reasons that permanently re-homing the dog is necessary for the mental characteristics of that breed, for safety. Humans do quite well in foster care, so yes, I would advocate her giving up a child in her current state, but it need not be permanent. She cannot provide for that dog. I'm not talking dollars either. This is quite another issue.

What would you say if the living creature in question was, instead, a poisonous snake? She might be emotionally attached to it, but is she in any place to provide for it? It might not be biting anyone now, but it has a fair bit of potential.

Combine a mincome with a basic right to housing and food: bye bye homeles problem.

By itself this would not fix her problem. It might make her more comfortable, but that clearly isn't the issue.

[Tipperary]

271. Thank you for an excellent post and rebuttal. Nt

[Demit]

280. Excellent post (again).

You've had infinite patience in outlining the realities of a bad situation. It's obvious (well, evidently not to some) that you have an understanding of the situation that doesn't preclude sympathy, but lays out all the realities in a quietly objective manner. Yesterday I watched attitudes slowly come round to accepting that the dog's well-being was a valid consideration, after having been mocked in the thread previous, and most everyone came to see that surrendering the dog to eventual adoption was the best option, sad but necessary. Also, with more information about the Akita breed, most everyone acknowledges that there's a potential for danger, now that the dog has been removed from the rescue facility, and is back with a troubled owner who cannot care for him properly. Your posts have been instrumental in helping people understand that.

[cwydro]

286. I agree.

Your posts in the other thread were perfectly reasonable, and you did not deserve attack.

There were some very nasty personal attacks in that thread.

I very rarely alert, and I did not do so in this case. However, many of those personal attacks should have been hidden.

[Demit]

289. There was something like a mob mentality going on there.

Anyone who deviated in our remarks in any way from the general outpouring of emotion was marked out as cruel & heartless, considered as one with the the poster whose comments really did get increasingly weird.

This thread has been interesting to watch. It's like one of those movies where the townspeople that were in the bloodthirsty mob the night before are back to being regular folks the next day, greeting each other civilly etc. We've even seen some members come out to say, essentially, "I thought something was off" who had been (wisely, probably) staying out of the fray. It's all been a very sad story, all the way through.

[daredtowork]

296. A rebuttal to your nonsense "excellent rebuttal"

I see all the people who have been criticized for tearing TTW down have rushed here desperately to find some post that gives them some sort of leg to stand on. But, once again, fail.

TTW didn't have to be in this situation. She has been taking care of this dog for YEARS. She has, in fact, been prioritizing the care of the dog over her own needs. The main reason she's in a situation where she can't take care of the dog now is that a ring of trolls surrounded her when she attempted to post a gofundme account, and she couldn't raise enough initial cash to stay in her place for a few months. Thus she had to come back on a monthly basis and assume the appearance of a regular panhandler. Her situation is one that takes months to address, and frankly she may belong on SSI and should have applied for that up front since the clock is ticking.

When people waiting for SSI ask DU for help, we don't say "but you had to pay your rent *last* month" (I hope).

[AtheistCrusader]

302. No.

"She has, in fact, been prioritizing the care of the dog over her own needs."

Pay attention to the other posters, who, if you don't like *my* style, did a better job of detailing the needs of that breed. TTW has in some ways prioritized the dog's needs over her own, and is failing to deliver at even that. That prioritization is part of what will continue to hold her down, and it is self inflicted.

Moreover, this type of dog was designed for a purpose that is inimically counter to TTW's situation. There exist some (rare) Akita's that can be used as therapy dogs, and even those exhibit fierce loyalty to their master and are kept in stable environments. It's an extreme risk for her situation. It narrows her options on working hours and housing. Opens her to liability she cannot insulate herself from. In Maryland, DC, and Virginia, that breed is classified as a 'Dangerous' dog for legal purposes for a reason. They have aggression/dominance issues with other dogs and children as they mature.

The way TTW responded to msanthrope's help, sets off every warning bell I've got about competence to care for that animal. Let alone care for herself.

Her situation is one that takes months to address

No, her situation is one that takes professional intervention to address. You appear to assume this is a simple case of poverty/hard luck. I assure you, it is not.

Some of us have seen this before.

[daredtowork]

304. I have seen this before as well

Because I have been IN this situation.

I agree TTW needs professional intervention - just not the kind you think she needs. I think TTW needed it long ago, and I tried to help her get it, unlike the people who just tried to block her from getting funds, driving her to eviction and inability to take care of herself or her dog.

I agree TTW can't take care of Yoshi now: she needs to find a place that will PROMISE TO GIVE YOSHI BACK and PROMISE NOT TO PUT HIM DOWN. She is making emotional threats because she was betrayed: she thought she was giving Yoshi to someone who would take care of Yoshi and give him back: that didn't happen. And if she's raving about a conspiracy to take Yoshi away from her: well that's true.

[AtheistCrusader]

307. No, it can't be given back. It may already be too late for this dog.

This breed forms bonds of a nature quite unlike your typical lab or whatever. It is psychologically damaging to the dog to continue to be moved and introduced and reintroduced to different masters. They are not designed for this. It needs a permanent home. Permanent master.

Shuffling it increases the odds of dangerous behavior.

From msanthrope's commentary, it seemed Yoshi was already past the point of risk of being put down. I can see how that could be disturbing. Can't be helped.

just not the kind you think she needs

I very much doubt that.

[daredtowork]

317. I'm familiar with the landscape of services and you aren't

you're just thinking "psychoooooooooooooooo".

It's more nuanced than that, and there is a range of services that can help TTW in this situation.

[AtheistCrusader]

319. You don't know anything about me.

Where do you get off making assumptions like that?

I agree it's nuanced. I would not say "psychoooooooooo" like an asshole though.

[daredtowork]

321. I'm going by the attitude you have shown in your posts, which have been cold and mean-spirited. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

323. I have posted NOTHING mean-spirited. Not in this thread.

I would accept 'cold' but prefer 'analytical'.

Meanwhile, some people were flat out bullies against anyone who questioned any aspect of the issue. I didn't come here to do a victory lap though, this is a serious issue.

[cwydro]

331. Nope, you haven't been mean spirited, and you have been analytical.

Certain other posters have been calling names right and left, making accusations, and oh lord, even have ginned up a "conspiracy theory" involving DUers.

I'd laugh if it weren't so sad.

[msanthrope]

231. Yes....you've nailed it. This post is exactly what is going on. I've tried...but I also

have the sense to step back and hope for the best here......

I think every DUer who has helped has done the limit of what cane be done.

[No Vested Interest]

259. Clearly your legal training and experience have served you well in this instance.

Even while being of more real assistance than any others on DU have been able to render, you are able to be objective about the outcome.
I salute you.

[trueblue2007]

222. Msanthrope, your EX - Moosepoop & everyone who have been helping TTW & her dog

God bless you.

Torch and Yoshi are in my prayers for a miracle here. For Torch to get a job and home. For Yoshi to continue having a loving human mom.

My cousin has a pure breed Akita and has no problems with her dog. Her dog loves everyone. adults, kids, and other pets. obviously Yoshi is more challenging.

I hope the best for all involved. Thank you Msanthrope, Ex hubby and everyone who's helped

[kiva]

223. Kudos to you and your ex

for stepping up when you could. Just read your second update...so sorry to hear that, hope she changes her mind

[Locrian]

230. wow

You (and ex) are amazing persons. I don't know what to say except that you've done more that humanly possible in this situation.

I hope it all turns out great, but please take care of yourself (and ex) - I know how hard it can be and it's sometimes hard to give yourself as much love as you are giving.

[magical thyme]

232. I just hope she can get him the veterinary care he needs

Having him with her may help her to calm down, and that will help him to calm down as well. Even if she only has a room, as long as he is allowed to stay there that may work out ok.

As someone posted above, I just wish a nice billionaire would rain enough $$ on TTW to give them a decent home for a couple years while she finds decent work and gets back on her feet...

[7962]

236. You did ALL you could. Sadly, she refused what was best for the dog.

But I'm sure you'll still feel guilty. You shouldnt. you tried

[geek tragedy]

242. Thank you for doing everything you could to save Yoshi.

It's very sad what his future is going to be. So sad.

[hamsterjill]

243. She reclaimed him because there was no assurance he wouldn't be killed.

It's really not a surprise. I see homeless people on a daily basis who will not part with their pets.

I'm sure she feels she is doing right by him. I hope something works for them both.

[daredtowork]

246. Thank you for mentioning tbat. Does this include "Akita Rescue"

if Yoshi can't be socialized into a new family or bites someone?

I hope this gives the "SOMEONE THINK OF THE DOG!" crowd pause for thought.

Though we all really know they just want to punish TTW for presumed poor life choices and failure to be their pizza delivery girl by taking away her dog. They just pretend to be caring about Yoshi.

SOMEBODY THINK OF THE HUMAN!

[Sunlei]

249. They did the best for the dog they could. Shelter would have held the dog for the legal 3-5 days,

then the dog can be passed legally to the Akita rescue. Akita rescue would then be the legal owner of the dog.

The dog and the owner now are in a much more perilous situation. I hope he has ID on his collar and the shelter he was at for a day micro chipped him (as they do for every animal at intake).

There's a high chance the 'roommate' will open the door and let the dog walk out. Or the property owner if its a rental will have the police evict because of the dog. Or the owner will be arrested for being on the street & any dogs are carted off to the pound. It will not go well for the dog in any of those situations.

Best thing the owner can do is sign him over to the Akita Rescue, breed experts that offered to take the dog. I read she refused to do that yesterday?

Perhaps after a day or two reflection she will come to her senses, sign the dog over to Akita Rescue. Before something happens where the dog has no options for a good placement at all.

[hamsterjill]

291. Agreed. They did the best they could.

But sometimes things don't work out. This is one of those times.

I didn't say that I thought TTW made the best decision. I merely understand her motivation to take him back because I've seen that same motivation by so many others in similar situations. They love their pets and cannot bear to be parted from them. In her mind, he's safer with her. Whether that's true or not is not something she may be considering.

On a different note, are you familiar with this Akita rescue? Have you personally visited it? I am not, and have never visited it. (And I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm asking legitimately).

I've been in animal rescue in Texas for over 30 years, and I can tell you with certainty, that many of these rescues are NOT what they appear to be. It takes personal knowledge and personal inspection for someone to know FOR SURE that the rescues are legitimate. There are most assuredly good rescues out there, and this Akita rescue may be a good one. I simply don't have the knowledge and information to know that with certainty. But the existence of so many bad ones has made it necessary to always hold some suspicion.

In my view, TTW and Yoshi were a package deal. The OP and her ex tried desperately to help, but were not able to provide the solution that TTW felt was right for her. It is within TTW's rights to take Yoshi back. Whether any of us agree or disagree, at this point, I think the best any of us can do is to hope for the best.

[msanthrope]

251. Nonsense. She reclaimed him because she didn't want him going to the rescue in NJ.

The only reason Yoshi would have been euthanized is if it had been determined by experts in the breed that he was a danger to humans. If it was determined that he was a danger to humans, do you think that's a dog who should be out of a shelter?

She isn't doing right by him---she's doing right by herself.

And I'm sorry of my tone is frustrated.....I am tired and frustrated, and just been informed that TTW is trying to lay theft charges against ex and me.....which won't happen, but I'm a tad bit annoyed none the less.

[tblue37]

265. Well, among other things, these threads are clear evidence that you were trying to save Yoshi

and help TTW, not steal him.

[shireen]

290. i'm so sorry

You've done everything right for Yoshi's welfare. I don't fully understand TTW's state of mind, but she's obviously not thinking rationally about it, probably due to past trauma.

Thank you for trying your best. Your friends are lucky to have someone like you in their lives.

[hamsterjill]

292. Absolutely she reclaimed him because she didn't want him going to the rescue.

I didn't say that I think she made the best decision. I simply understand her motivation in reclaiming him. I see that same motivation in homeless people in my own city over and over and over again. They cannot bear to part with their beloved pet and will put both the pet and themselves in jeopardy to stay together. Therefore, TTW's reclamation of him was no surprise.

Have you personally visited this rescue? I have over 30 years experience in rescue in Texas. There are many rescues (as I explained up-post) that are NOT what they appear. This one may be a perfectly good and legitimate one, but until someone has visited and knows that via PERSONAL knowledge and not word of mouth, there is no real assurance. There are so many bad rescues out there, that is the necessary to look at each one with a degree of suspicion. There are also very good rescues that, try as they might, make bad adoptions because potential adoptors sometimes lie. This is a legitimate concern and consideration, and it may very well have been something that motivated TTW to reclaim the dog. She may have been unable to accept "the unknown" as to what was going to happen to Yoshi.

As to your comment asking if I think if Yoshi is a danger to humans that he should be out of the shelter, my answer is "of course not". But I don't know of many shelters that will house indefinitely a dog that is deemed aggressive, and he would likely be euthanized ultimately because of space or funding.

In addition to that, in one of your updates to your original OP, you indicated that the rescue felt Yoshi would acclimate. Moreover, TTW has had Yoshi for some time, right? And there have been no instances of him acting aggressively? No impoundments for biting, etc.??? So I don't know that his aggressive behavior at your ex's house is necessarily a proper indicator of his demeaner (which, to your credit, you address in your OP).

My bottom line is that TTW had the legal right to reclaim him, whether any of us like it or not and whether any of us feel it was the best decision or not. You and your ex have put in a great deal of effort into trying to help, and even with your best efforts and best intentions, a solution has not been arrived at that is acceptable to TTW. In my opinion, she and Yoshi are a package deal in her mind.

You have done all that you could do. You tried your best. Did more than most would even consider doing. It didn't work out. Therefore, it is time to end your involvement, and we will all hope for the best outcome. That is all that is humanly possible at this point.

[StevieM]

295. I am sympathetic to your frustration, especially after you tried to help her. But look at this from

TTW's point of view:

She was explicit from the beginning that she didn't want to part with Yoshi. You indicated that you would help make that possible. Rescue/adoption/rehoming was not supposed to be part of the equation. In fact, she had repeatedly rejected them, over and over again.

Approximately 24 hours--or maybe it was 48--after you took Yoshi in, you had to back out and cancel the whole thing. You then took Yoshi immediately to a shelter, with plans on giving him a new permanent home within a few days. You did this (I believe) without talking to TTW.

In other words, you getting involved produced the exact opposite result than the one the TTW had said she was looking for. It produced the exact result that she had turned to you in order to help avoid.

I know that you tried your hardest to help and that was really decent of you. I just don't like that everyone is acting as if TTW has done something outrageous here, and they're just shocked that she went and picked Yoshi up.

[DawgHouse]

300. ITA - the exact opposite of what she expected happened.

Her biggest fear was realized. It may not be rational but that is her POV.

It's good to know that there are people who go above and beyond to try to help but sometimes it just doesn't work out the way you hope it will.

[magical thyme]

266. agreed. and if everybody was telling her she has to give up Yoshi, that would explain

why she rejected the resources. I just hope she has found a place -- even just an empty room -- where the 2 of them can be safe. Stuff can be replaced; lives cannot.

[hamsterjill]

293. I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say.

Thank you. And yes, I hope, as well, that she has found a place where the two of them can be safe. By the information in the original OP, it is obvious that Yoshi was stressed being away from TTW. Whether or not it was the best decision for her to reclaim him, I can respect that she loves him and feels that she is doing the right thing by him.

My hope is for the best outcome for both TTW and Yoshi.

[phylny]

245. I am in awe of your kindness and thoughtfulness.

You've done a wonderful job, and you and your ex are to be commended for all you did.

[SoapBox]

248. You really have gone over and above.

Thank you for that.

[Hekate]

250. You and your ex are good people. TY so much for filling us in. It's so sad how the saga continues...

The responses in this thread are heartwarming and often insightful... I'm sorry to concur that TTW doesn't seem to be able to accept realistic help at this time. I know how much that hurts after all the efforts you made.

I do want to add, though, that among the good you wrought was to help the DU community understand the reality of what is going on with TTW and Yoshi. Without that face to face contact and in-depth reporting on your part, she would still just be frantic pixels on a screen, with no way of knowing if this was an ongoing scam or not. (I was taken in by one many years ago here at DU, not that I sent money, but along with many others was captured in a certain poster's web of emotional deceit. No one knows what he got out of it, except some kind of twisted amusement. He was a troll. It has made me....cautious.)

Now the jumbled pixels have resolved into a picture, something comprehensible to the rest of us, thanks to you. Unfortunately, only TTW can make the picture coherent for herself. You have done all you can and more.

For you.

For TTW.

[msanthrope]

255. Thank you for this post. I don't take TTW's rejection personally, but I am glad that finally,

someone got to meet TTW and describe the situation with some rationality.

There are many ways to help TTW. I hope someone with some financial guidance background can step forward and help manage the monies. Financial goals would help.

[LiberalAndProud]

262. Financial guidance, really?

Having just gone through this episode first hand, do you think that financial guidance would be accepted, much less welcome?

You've decided it's best to take a step back. Judging by her siblings' reactions to the situation, I suggest that they have had to make the same hard choice. We as a group aren't equipped to cope with these sorts of personal crises as we've seen demonstrated on this board in the past. The resentment boils over when meddling strangers begin to meddle. And to what end? Yoshi is no safer and TTW is no more stable than when all the upset began.

There really is no more to be done from this quarter, imo.

[msanthrope]

264. I know you are right. Thank you for that bit of cold water to the face. nt

[Demit]

282. The family, yes…

Back when the eviction threads began, I wondered about the family not helping, not even giving her a place to stay till she got a better situation. That indicated to me that there was more to the story than we were getting.

[bettyellen]

303. Her family did steer her toward mental health services because they were concerned...

And she showed up, apparently very shocked and angry about it. It was one in a very long string of misunderstandings she blamed on other people.
I imagine they sent her there to "get help" and were not as specific about it as they could have been. But it shows they are aware and trying to push her toward help, TTW wanted no part of it.
I hope she begins to realize that she needs to make some concessions to get herself stabilized. For herself and for Yoshi.

[mnhtnbb]

268. Sending you a PM.

[cwydro]

253. This is very bad news, and it doesn't speak well for the shelter.

When I worked as a volunteer with my local shelter, they would not have released a dog who had been surrendered without some VERY hard questions.

This dog was surrendered by friends who tried to help, and who told the shelter the circumstances, therefore the shelter knew TTW had nowhere to keep the dog.

If the shelter released the dog to TTW, that is very bad on their part.

I still don't understand why TTW is mad at you, misanthrope, when you only responded to Moosepoop's rather desperate call for help. Is she also upset with Moosepoop?

This poor dog, in the space of a week, has gone from a crate, to a place with strangers, to a shelter, and now to god-knows-where. This is really an awful story, and I don't see it ending well.

[msanthrope]

254. Under PA law, they had to release him, regardless of her circumstances. PA is a horrible state for

animal rights--it's why there's so many puppy mills. They, and the Akita rescue tried to persuade her let them keep Yoshi. They even gave her food for him. She would not relent.

There was quite a scene at the shelter, unfortunately. Currently, TTW is extremely upset at everyone involved--she thinks there was a conspiracy, fomented on this board, to steal Yoshi from her. To what end, I don't know.

In our last conversation, TTW threatened to have me jailed, and ex and I would pay her damages for "theft." I know that's delusional, and I'm not even upset at her....it just makes me more worried that she isn't living in reality.

[No Vested Interest]

258. Sorry to know that TTW has threatened you and ex with theft charges, etc.

Even knowing, as you know the law - setting aside the mighty efforts you and others made to accommodate Yoshi - any attempt by TTW to turn on those who did their mightiest to assist her in her grave need will surely backfire on TW in a big way, and kill any support she had - moral, financial, and physical- on DU.

It's always a great pity to do oneself in, but we all know it happens and, often, all we can do is step back and watch the implosion occur.
I do wish TTW and Yoshi well, but fear things are moving in the wrong direction for her at this time.

[msanthrope]

260. Well, it's an empty threat, born of anger, and I'm not taking it too seriously. I think she still

needs help, but I think any DUer who helps her should do it at a distance.

[cwydro]

269. Where is Moosepoop in all of this?

I understood that she is close friends with TTW since she(or he) is the one that made the plea on TTW's behalf after speaking with TTW on the phone.

I hope Moosepoop can update us on what might be happening.

[msanthrope]

270. I've been in communication with Moosepoop. I don't think she has any more info than us right now...

TTW expressed in a voicemail to my ex that she felt there was a conspiracy at DU to steal Yoshi. I've tried calling TTW, she won't answer.

[cwydro]

272. Oh, ok.

I'm sorry to hear that.

And I'm sorry for all the trouble you experienced, and now the ingratitude on top of it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

329. No good deed goes unpunished, I guess,

but thanks to you and ex for trying to help. You went far above and beyond what anyone could have expected.

[Moosepoop]

273. I haven't heard from TTW since the phone call last weekend.

She called me after her visit to the doggy day care, I posted the OP about it, and haven't heard from her since.

Up until Yoshi went to the rescue place, I assumed that she was just very busy between work and arranging Yoshi's transfer to msanthrope's ex's house, etc... since then, she still hasn't called or made any other contact with me.

I wish she would. I'm extremely worried about her, and Yoshi too. But it seems that she may see me as part of an enemy camp now, something I pretty much expected would happen once the focus shifted to placing Yoshi with the rescue/Akita groups.

She's distanced herself from me. I'm not going to push -- she has my number and I'll ALWAYS be here in any way that I can be for her. That has not changed, nor will it.

I hope that her ability to recognize that does.



Edited to add that msanthrope and her ex have been absolutely stellar through all of this. I have the utmost respect, admiration, and gratitude to both of them for the herculean efforts they've made and the trouble it has caused them and is causing them now. I am in awe, truly.

[Vinca]

276. A couple of years ago I encountered a situation where I was worried for a dog's welfare.

There was a couple who I think lived in the woods and picked up bottles to get by. They've been around forever and I'm sure have been offered all kinds of help given the mindset in this area. Anyhow, suddenly they appeared with a German shepherd puppy. He was the sweetest, little thing, but it soon became clear they had no means to feed him properly or take him for shots, etc. Apparently half the town called the animal control officer who is a very nice, animal-loving woman. She took it upon herself to "oversee" the situation and got a vet to give the dog free care and made sure it had food. After it was discovered the dog's feet were suffering from walking on the road too much, she had them push it around in a carriage part of the time. One time I saw the man tugging at the dog's leash because it didn't want to get up so I called the animal control officer to check on the situation. She assured me she was watching the dog, but that she had no authority to take it. Maybe there is a similar person who could keep an eye on Yoshi. Or, if TTW is as unbalanced as it seems from reading the post, the dog should be removed from her. In the end you have to think of the welfare of the animal whether it hurts her or not.

Edited to add: You're a really good person for what you've been trying to do.

[daredtowork]

299. Did anyone think of the COUPLE who was PICKING UP BOTTLES TO GET BY? nt

[Vinca]

315. Everyone is well aware of them and they are well aware of the services available to them.

You can't help people who don't want the assistance.

[daredtowork]

318. If you have been reading TTW's posts

She did her best to research services. She looked into the various dog options. She contacted and worked with a social worker. She already sees a therapist She obviously wants help, but she is also trying to stay with her dog. The kinds of help she can get is limited under the circumstances. What else do you want from her?

Oh yeah...give up the dog.

But, no, there is no conspiracy on DU to force TTW to give up her dog.

[seveneyes]

334. The only conspiracy was to save the dog

The only other option was to send money to its owner until the end of never. It was an unselfish effort to save the animal from an inevitable future of misery and danger.

[daredtowork]

343. Nevertheless, I'm pointing out TTW can read. nt

[Vinca]

335. Would you rather the dog suffer from lack of food, medical care, etc?

Life sucks sometimes and hard decisions have to be made. Akita rescue would find him a great home. If she just continues on, chances are he'll be picked up by animal control or the police because he's being neglected. If that happens the very worst could happen to the dog, like landing in a kill shelter.

[daredtowork]

346. I'm not making a judgment call on this, but TTW did

People proposed Akita rescue: TTW concluded that Akita rescue would not return Yoshi to her and would possibly put him down. She didn't go with that option.

People continued to pretend like TTW "ignored" their suggestions instead of made an autonomous choice after checking out that suggestion.

I'm not a dog owner: I've read from these threads that Akita's are very loyal to their owner and there are few environments that can take Yoshi. TTW was doing her best to keep Yoshi in the first place.

The sad thing is if she had been able to raise enough money to get stabilized and get a new job, then the situation would be different now. People are only assuming she "would never" have gotten job and would have just continued to try to "scam" for rent money. They put her in a position of being extremely harassed which makes it hard to pivot out. I've said in other threads she needed wrap-around services from the top as well.

But now who knows what will happen to her or Yoshi. What a terrible situation.

[daredtowork]

301. Well there is a conspiracy on this board to steal Yoshi

Since her first post there his been comment after comment about how instead of "panhandling", she should take Yoshi to "Akita Rescue". That it's only a "reasonable suggestion" that TTW give up her dog. Why does she keep asking for rent money to keep her dog with her instead of acting on "reasonable suggestions" to give up her dog? Even after you got involved, there were many comments on your thread about how even YOU were involved with some "scam" which was proven by TTW ignoring the "reasonable suggestion" and all the "resources" that involved giving up her dog. Many people here assert it is "better for the dog" (without a thought to TTW) for Yoshi to go elsewhere.

I would not downplay the conspiracy on DU at all.

From TTW's perspective, she trusted a stranger to take care of her beloved dog, and the next thing she knew, the dog was in the "rescue" system - and she was even worried he might be put down at some point because he was a guard dog that could threaten other animals or even bite people. It's *her* loyal dog.

This is not in anyway to criticize what you tried to do, which was waaaaaaaaay above and beyond the call of kindness.

I just want to affirm that TTW is not paranoid about DU: there is a conspiracy to take away her dog here, and I can see why she responded the way she did. People are coming across as crass and uncaring, putting dogs before people.

[AtheistCrusader]

305. Le sigh.

Many people here assert it is "better for the dog" (without a thought to TTW) for Yoshi to go elsewhere.

Is the dog a living creature to you or simply property, like a shoe?

Did the potential liability the dog brings into TTW's situation fall on completely deaf ears with you? That dog could seriously hurt someone, could be taken away and destroyed by the state, could even behave in a manner that ends up with TTW being assigned financial burden or criminal charges.

There's no upside here. It's better for the dog for him to be re-homed. It's better for her if the dog is re-homed.

Everyone who suggested it, that I saw, gave a thought to TTW before suggesting it. Come on.

[Tipperary]

312. Your posts are well thought out and reasonable. But I fear that talking

to that particular poster, well, your sensible posts are falling on deaf ears.

[Texasgal]

306. This is simply not true.

Many people here have been sending money and food for Yoshi for months.

There was no conspiracy. Geez o' peat!

[bettyellen]

308. People here have offered homes to TTW and her dog but been refused...

TTW insists on doing everything on her own terms which meant asking for money to continue the horrible situation at her apartment.
I think most have come to the conclusion only TTw can help TTW, but they can help the dog. And that he would be better in a stable enviornment as soon as possible.
It is magical thinking to believe the dog is better off in the streets. TTW, despite her love for him, is putting herself and that dog in a very dangerous situation. There is no conspiracy here- it's just acknowledging a dangerous situation.

[Sheldon Cooper]

310. Agreed.

If TTW and her dog end up in the street, which seems inevitable, it's really just a matter of time until the dog hurts someone. And then he will certainly be put down, no second chances, no rescue, nothing.

[bettyellen]

313. i do believe it was right to step in and help the dog- I know she can't see it could

Prevent some tragic consequences, but that it the reality. This conspiracy thing is ridiculous. It was magical thinking to expect others to risk their lives for her peace of mind. That would not help her dog.

[daredtowork]

326. It's not ridiculous at all

It's the product of the way certain people on her kept saying over and over again that TTW had "ignored" the "reasonable option" of Akita rescue, constantly painting a misrepresentation over what was really happening, which is enough to make anyone paranoid.

She was trying not to choose the option that would take her dog away and possibly kill her dog. Yet people kept saying she "ignored" their good advice instead of made an autonomous choice that that was bad advice. She did give the dog to msanthrope's ex - who promised to return him. Then what happened? The dog went to Akita Rescue. The organization she had *chosen* not to deal with.

This is what the DU forum said - it's not ridiculous or paranoid to "think" people wanted to remove Yoshi from her.

[Demit]

336. Your paranoid fantasies are maligning too many members of DU now.

I suggest you ratchet back the malicious insinuations. They are utterly repugnant.

[daredtowork]

356. lol. Many members suggested "Akita Rescue". That's called "a fact". nt

[bettyellen]

338. No, she chose NOT to allow Yoshi to be fostered to a home that would tend to his medical issues.

You do get that she has no where to house the dog and herself, putting them both at extreme risk? I believe Misanthrope was following up with the shelter to make sure the Akita rescue would take it and Yoshi would be taken care of. Chronic diarrhea and kernel cough can kill him. Living in a car or the streets puts them both at extreme risk. TTW has chosen not to take housing for both of them, she has decided to choose imperiling both their lives for reasons unknown to us.

TTW had a choice to do what is best for that dog, and decided her own emotional needs were more important. Its seems TTW and you expected Moosepoop and co to put their very lives at risk when the animal was deemed dangerous? No. That is ridiculous, they had to remove the dog. Thinking the dog is better off on the streets is just wrong. TTW cannot care for herself, let alone the both of them right now.

Thee dog needs meds and a roof over his head and is in a very precarious situation right now. There is no conspiracy, only people who show more concern for that dog's life than TTW is currently able to. It is what it is. Yoshi is not a possession, he deserves better.

[daredtowork]

355. TTW's own emotional needs don't count? nt

[bettyellen]

368. not more than Moosepoops life, or Yoshi's - both of which she knowingly put in danger this week.

I hope this a wakeup call for her. Few will be willing to support her if she lashes out and continues to put other people and her own dog in grave danger. It is one thing to make mistakes that effect yourself, but hurting Yoshi and kind strangers is beyond the pale.
I hope she realizes how selfish that is soon.

[daredtowork]

390. She was looking for a place to put Yoshi where she could get him back some day. nt

[Aerows]

332. I love animals

But I wouldn't continue to host one that threatened my other pets or myself. I would want to make certain my family and my pets were safe. They did the very best they could and were trying to get the dog placed somewhere where he can thrive, that didn't include having themselves or their pet in danger.

http://dogbitelaw.com/parents/a-dog-attack-danger-scale-to-keep-you-and-your-kids-safe

This article is pretty darn clear about the risks.

[bettyellen]

340. Yes, the situation degraded quickly and there were no better options. I do believe Misanthrope would

have followed up with the Akita rescue to keep a roof over Yoshi's head, and also make sure Yoshi gets some meds for what is ailing him. That is love and charity, not a conspiracy. It is unfortunate that TTW's mindset, for many months has been to lash out angrily at everyone she comes across, making all her enemies. I do believe this will make life harder and more dangerous for Yoshi as he cannot protect her from everyone- but must now feel he needs to. God help them if they are living in a car.
Validating her paranoia here can't help. Choosing homelessness and no care for a sick dog is not acting in a loving way toward that dog. If TTW were emotionally stable and well herself, she would know that. She would not blame everyone who has tried to help, and reject most help offered. TTW needs to decide to save herself, or it will not happen.
I cannot imagine how frightened and confused Yoshi must be.

[daredtowork]

320. TTW's Terms

TTW accepted msanthrope's ex's offer: the terms of someone taking care of the dog until she could reclaim him were acceptable to her. Those are the only terms acceptable to her.

The other "reasonable options" everyone keeps citing weren't acceptable to her.

Now TTW can't take care of the the dog and they are both in a dangerous situation. Because this breed does do best with its original owner, the best solution WAS to stay with TTW - i.e. her "terms". But she couldn't raise enough money for that.

Now the only "terms" are taking the dog from TTW (infinite distress for her), which may eventually involve putting the dog down, considering how the ex described him (sad outcome for the dog). TTW's original "terms" were the best ones.

[gwheezie]

337. But she can't meet her own terms

She is living where dogs are not allowed and a dire plea went out because the dog was not going to survive in the horrible doggie daycare she put him in. She put him there. A du member took the dog on good faith they could manage the dog. Ttw let him go there. These are decisions she made. No one is doing this to her. Now it all worked out, she has her dog back. Those are her terms.

[daredtowork]

349. These are decisions poverty made

TTW was cornered into those decisions and reached out for help. A lot of people gave her untenable answers, like "give up your dog".

This needed to be addressed in a better way (with wrap-around services) months ago. Now TTW is looking at homelessness, and it will probably come to a bad end for the dog.

[gwheezie]

367. I've been homeless

I've lost everything in the past including pets and custody of my child. I do actually know how it feels.

[daredtowork]

391. I hope things are better for you now.

Did you get your child back?

[bettyellen]

342. her terms? they put people's lives in danger- period. the alternative was to leave him "dying" in

doggy day care. That was HER choice, as was trusting Misanthrope to do her best for Yoshi.
no one gets all they want from others, even in the best of times. TTW takes NO responsibility for the issues happening in her own life, she blames literally a half dozen other people at a minimum. Not a shock that she is blaming others for Yoshi's misfortune.
People can help only so much- there is no miracle cure for this situation.

[daredtowork]

351. That sounds so much like "personal responsibility"

TTW's choices got progressively narrower as she ran out of resources. She was trying to make the choices that allowed her to stay in her home and stay with Yoshi. People didn't like her trying to do that because it meant she was panhandling to try to do that.

In some cases people actually do raise a lot of money and that changes their situation. But TTW was blocked by a lot of things, and one of the primary factors was she couldn't get the services she needed at the same time so no one wanted to trust her with money. Therefore she got tanked.

Did you ever read about this guy who raised 50k on kickstarter and then burned the books he was supposed to send out?
http://mashable.com/2014/03/06/kickstarter-comic-burns-books/

I don't think we should be saying "people can only help so much" when the problem was people didn't help in the first place. People may have had their "reasons" and "suspicions" - but the fact is, TTW's fundraiser didn't work. That narrowed her choices a LOT. It sucks to be continuously invoking "personal responsibility" after that.

[Texasgal]

358. Actually alot of people

have been helping in the background in various ways. It wasn't just the fundraiser and money.

[daredtowork]

360. Yes I've noticed that. Including me. Why are you pointing this out? nt

[bettyellen]

364. when you beg for help- you do not get to set unreasonable terms. real life does not work that way.

expecting Misanthrope's family to keep housing an animal that endangers them is cruel. TTW had bragged about Yoshi being an attack dog- but did not warn her about this aggressiveness when she made her generous offer. That was dishonest of TTW, and cruel to Yoshi.

One of the primary factors was her dragging her feet - for months- to the point where it was hard to believe she wanted any help. Ignoring advice again and again and again, stalling with the job search, stalling signing up for housing- blaming others for ALL of that.....blaming everyone for endless misunderstandings, and trying to throw good money after bad to stay in her apartment.

Endless bad decisions that she would take no responsibility for. Many of us have endured years of similar behavior from family and friends who are addicts or have severe mental issues plus addiction. We know that enabling the situation does not help. The red flags were all over her responses.

Not bootstraps at all- but if she had shown just a few shreds of responsibility, if she had actually done more than a few phone calls those first months... it would have prompted a bigger outpouring of help. Instead- she angrily said she didn't even read or follow up on advice given because others annoyed her on the thread. She rejected housing because she didn't like the sound of a voice on the phone. So, again- it is everyone else's fault.

She again fails to take responsibility for Yoshi's situation - which happened because she did not warn Misanthrope he could be dangerous- and now it's "her terms" are not met?

I know she is not well, but it is not helping her, defending her cruel and unfair expectations of others. Other people should not get mauled due to her inability to care for him. Nope.

[daredtowork]

386. Neither of us know exactly what TTW told msanthrope's Ex or the Dogwalker

Msanthrope made the offer of her own free will, and she says she merely didn't know about that breed, so she may have underestimated what TTW described.

TTW's main concern was to find a place to put Yoshi where she could get him back. TTW did not "drag her feet": she had not collected enough money to move forward: i.e., to move and make a downpayment on another place. But she also needed supportive services at the same time (as mentioned in another thread) because between the legal problems, her unemployment, and impending homelessness, the stress level was too great for anyone to be ablee to manage.

I did not see her "stalling" with the job search. I saw her get a job, where she may have been promptly fired again because of the circumstances (was that the pharmacy thing?). And I saw her register for temp jobs. I saw her reach out to social services. I saw her following up on resources as much as possible.

She was not stalling on signing up for housing: there was nowhere to go with her dog.

There were no "red flags" in her responses: only desperation because yet another month had gone by that she had to hold out, and she wouldn't be able to raise enough money to move some place that would take Yoshi because of "skeptics".

Even if TTW weren't obviously mentally frazzled, there is a tendency to craft stories around people we don't help or feel guilty about not helping: *they* didn't accept help, *they* didn't take responsibility, *they* didn't do the right thing.

Most things I saw from TTW looked logical to me, including her upset/frazzled response to the whole situation.


I can make some guesses about who "annoyed" her on the thread: I'm sure if she used the language she was really thinking, she would be getting a stronger label. People were constantly saying very cruel things that were denying her autonomy and misrepresenting what she was doing. As you are now.

[Yo_Mama]

373. I truly think you are wrong.

People were willing to help her stay in her home when it appeared there was any realistic possibility of that. But TTW had to be able to function in a way she was not able to function to be able to do that.

The stress levels TTW was describing alone made it clear that TTW could not stay in that house, and that the situation was harmful to her.

If all TTW had needed was money, DU could have helped her. Sadly, she needed and needs a great deal more. Human beings are not machines - it's not just that you charge up a battery and plop it in, and lala! functioning human mechanism again. TTW needs an intensive level of human assistance and treatment that she couldn't get and probably is refusing for Yoshi's sake.

For some people, avoiding homelessness just is a matter of money. For TTW, it is not.

[daredtowork]

383. I agree with that

I think you haven't read my other posts. It's hard to rewrite long spiels in every single post. I know TTW needed wrap-around services immediately, and I tried to assist with that from her first post. I tried to talk with both her and other people from DU in the back ground. I knew she needed someone there to intervene to manage her situation.

But I also think she would have been best off if she had been able to stay in her own home, with her dog. I think that might have been possible with support services. It was a lot harder with certain people on DU running around crying "scam!" constantly.

[Yo_Mama]

388. It's a rough situation and I believe that many people did not understand TTW's state.

You have to have had some experience with this sort of thing to get it. This was absolutely not a scam.

[Texasgal]

345. The dog frightened her EX.

He was aggressive, and also the dog attacked his pet cat! He was forced to seperate his own animals in his own home. No one told him that Yoshi was a special breed that needed special concessions!

What was he supposed to do?

[daredtowork]

347. Uh, why are you explaining that to me?

I've made several posts thanking msanthrope and saying I thought the Ex did the best he could do under the circumstances and had no choice.

[Texasgal]

353. You've eluded that's there is

some sort of conspiracy or nefarious activity going on, that is just so untrue!

[daredtowork]

387. I've confirmed that TTW read the forum correctly

People are saying that TTW is being conspiratorial/paranoid/ridiculous for saying people wanted her to give up Yoshi.

People do want her to give up Yoshi. From her first post, people have been making "sensible suggestions" and pointing her to Akita Rescue.

That's a fact, not an insult to the forum.

TTW can read.

[gwheezie]

311. Far from it

My concern for ttw is her housing situation and fear that she would choose to be homeless rather than surrender the dog. I also am concerned that decisions are going to be made for her and she loses all control over what happens to yoshi.

[daredtowork]

322. I agree

I think she is choosing the "nuclear option", hoping someone will bail her out if she will choose homelessness otherwise.

I only hope she still has her car to live in. It seems her landlady has possession of all her personal stuff.

[Aerows]

324. I'm all for putting people above dogs

And if Yoshi ends up in a situation where he perceives a threat towards his mistress, there is a very real possibility of a person or a child getting injured, or God forbid, killed. Then on top of her other financial issues, she will face criminal charges from negligence. People do and have gone to jail for actions their pets take.

[daredtowork]

328. I agree: I think there can only be a bad outcome to this situation now

Especially if TTW ends up living out of her car. Yoshi is going to try to defend her at some point, and that will be that.

I'm starting to think TTW should have taken that North Carolina invite (even though when someone on Daily Kos took up such an offer they ended up being abandoned in the middle of nowhere Maine). Was that from a strange man, though? That might have been a factor.

[bettyellen]

348. what really frightens me is her OTT anger and paranoia.- cannot imagine how Yoshi can cope with that

When all he wants to do is protect her.
I don't think it's a matter of people caring more for people or pets. TTW has made it clear she cannot be helped unless it is 100% on her terms- the kind of help that does't exist except in the form of a check for 4-5 months rent. Even free housing was not enough. She insists on calling the terms- and none of us can satisfy them. You have to throw your hands up and accept that, it is her choice. Many of us have been through this with loved ones and know- they need to want to help themselves.
None of this is Yoshi's choice, and he is now in a bad way too. I'm sure he would want to feel healthier and more secure if possible.

[daredtowork]

359. Because she was betrayed

She agreed to let the dog go, which she didn't want to do in the first place, because she thought it was going to the Ex.

Then the dog was sent to a rescue org, which she had explicitly and repeatedly decided not to do.

The Ex had a good reason to do that, but TTW's reaction is based on the fact that the result was what she was most trying to avoid.

[bettyellen]

366. TTW was not forthcoming about Yoshi being an attack dog. That is a bigger betrayal- to put those

who try to help you in a gravely dangerous situation. And to expect them to continue it for your sake. No. No. No.
TTW has to accept Yoshi is her own responsibility, and that charity does not rain from the sky in exactly the term you insist on.
Might as well live on another planet. This magical thinking is not to be encouraged, it has gotten her nowhere.

[daredtowork]

382. hmm perhaps you are confused about the notion of charity

True charity would have been funds freely given, from the heart.

Funds given on your terms, i.e. with strings attached, would be generous, but would fall short of true charity. It's these well-meaning strings attached that often actually screw things up because outsiders don't understand the situation as well as the person experiencing the situation does.

TTW was honest about Yoshi's behavior in many posts, which caused the skeptics to say, "Perhaps your problems stem from the fact you are harboring a VICIOUS DOG!" Then TTW would have to circle back and try to explain Yoshi's breed, etc.

TTW was not engaging in magical thinking. At one point she had the resources to take care of her dog. Now she does not, but she has a breed that is excessively loyal to its owner. It's a difficult situation that has almost zero chance of turning out well now. It would have had a better chance if people had been kinder up front.

[Yo_Mama]

374. But everybody betrays TTW, and maybe that is for a reason?

TTW is not able to deal with reality. Other people have to deal with it. It appears that TTW is locked into a cycle in which she demands impossible help, and then when she doesn't get it, that becomes the justification for the next failure to cope with reality.

Look, I am in agony and fear over this poor soul. But it is TTW who created this situation, not that I believe she is in control of her own behavior at this point.

Be honest, because you can't help her any other way.

[Yo_Mama]

371. No, there isn't and wasn't any conspiracy to steal Yoshi.

Back in the spring people were beginning to feel real concern over TTW's efforts to remain in the house, due to the stress of the situation and the impossibility.

These were not unreasonable concerns. TTW has gotten thousands of dollars in donations to Paypal and the gofundme site. Her plans were unrealistic - not her fault, because TTW has problems. It was not unreasonable to feel concerned about TTW, when she wrote about not sleeping, washing or eating. Note that TTW ended up angry with EVERY single person or agency who tried to help her. Every last one. They were ALL wrong, bad and betraying her. Do you believe this?

People were still offering to fund the dog's stay in what was hoped to be a good temporary home. No one wanted TTW to be on the streets with her dog, and that is what may now have happened.

People want TTW to have Yoshi. People want TTW to be safe. Concerns over Yoshi being safe have been very secondary, but everyone understands how much the dog means to TTW.

There are a few asinine idiots who just have been cruel, but most people engaged with this very sad story have been trying to help as best they could. This is a genuinely tragic situation, but the only thing that DU could have done that would have been acceptable to TTW was to pay her rent each month so she could stay in the house with Yoshi, and that was not feasible.

There is no conspiracy against TTW on DU at all. This is a complex situation, and as I believe I wrote once before, TTW needs significant services herself so she can learn to live again. She is not prospering, and her problems began significantly before the eviction proceedings.

The reason I bothered to respond to your post is that it helps neither TTW nor Yoshi to adopt TTW's skewed thinking patterns. It is those skewed thinking patterns which have caused this situation. TTW may now be in a very dangerous situation, but DU did not create that situation.

TTW is not a scammer, but she's also not able to cope with life right now. If Yoshi had died in the prior situation, I don't think it would have been good for her either. To describe this as a conspiracy to steal a dog is bizarre beyond belief.

[daredtowork]

389. I didn't say there was a conspiracy to steal Yoshi

I'm saying that TTW isn't wrong when she interprets people on the forum as wanting to remove Yoshi from her.

People were calling TTW "conspiratorial", "paranoid", and "ridiculous" for that.

I've been pointing out that TTW can read and since her first post there have been people advising her to give up Yoshi.

What TTW wrote sounded like classic PTSD/stress reaction of someone who was facing impending homelessness and couldn't arrange to quickly get a job - especially in the condition she was in. Legal proceedings are especially stressful.

Do you believe I understand the situation TTW was facing? I agree she could not cope. What she needed was someone to intervene *on the spot* with good support services. Some people here believe the family tried to do this. I believe the family was how TTW described them: not close, and trying to do things without TTW's consent - like get her temporarily committed and remove Yoshi.

If you think I'm advocating a "conspiracy to steal Yoshi" you are not reading my posts very well. I'm defending TTW from attacks on her character by describing things from her point of view. I am not "adopting" her skewed thinking patterns: I'm recognizing her autonomy as a human being, albeit a clearly disabled one.

[TBF]

274. You did what you could -

and more than most would. I don't see this ending well unless there is a personal friend or family that steps in to help TTW (and she accepts that help). Way back when I was just out of college I had the opportunity to work in a short-term psych hospital. Especially on the addictions side there was a lot we could do to help people, but they had to want to make changes. Unfortunately some people never get there.

[msanthrope]

275. That's the long and the short of it......to be fair to TTW, it's incredibly difficult

to make life changes when you're trying to eek out a subsistence living. and cash donations can help you with that living..... but they don't force fundamental changes.

the dog walker I previously mentioned is attempting to get TTW to consider transitional housing. I hope TTW will seriously listen to her because she is an excellent caring and very perceptive person.

[Violet_Crumble]

281. Dumb question. What's transitional housing?

Is it like public housing where the government owns the properties and sets the rent at a small fraction of whatever the tenant gets in salary or government benefits?

I'm so sorry that TTW threatened you with jail and lawsuits and stuff. But now some of the stuff she was saying earlier, like how her family wasn't helping her and the pattern of social workers or other helpers always being considered useless is making sense. You, yr ex, yr dog walker, Moosepoop, Omaha Steve and others who have tried to help her have done far, far more to try to help than many others would do. But I honestly think the help she needs is the sort of help us at DU don't have the skills to give her.

[msanthrope]

285. It can be many different things.....in this case, someplace for TTW to

be safe, perhaps pick up some employment and life skills and basically get her life back on track. I think she needs social services support And I think that's difficult to obtain unless you are in that particular sort of closed setting where more of a life plan be made.

[daredtowork]

298. I totally agree, and you are wonderful patient and perceptive

Thank you for being so understanding.

In California what TTW needs is called wrap-around services. Unfortunately around here you can only get that if you are designated "chronically homeless" or you have an eviction notice in hand. This has been frustrating for me, because I needed some of those services, and I had to cobble together a lot for myself from different agencies like the Dept. of Rehab and services for the disabled. I was VERY lucky in that I had a situation that stabilized my housing at that time. If I had been in TTW's situation, I would have been homeless. The system drives people into homelessness primarily because there is nothing that tries to keep people in their current housing (too expensive). That is why I empathize and feel very sensitive to what TTW seems to be going through.

The minute I saw TTW's first post, I tried to research such wrap-around services for her and PM'd her to try to advice her on what to ask 211 for. I tried to look for someone on DU to visit her personally: she did need someone to intervene - not because she needed some control freak to come take everything away from her, but because she needed to get a case manager who could organize "wrap-around services" for her. I cannot emphasize enough that Social Services DOES NOT DO THAT. Everyone thinks that's what Social Services does. Not in major urban areas these day. Social Services just processes Federal paperwork. They don't do jack to help you.

Another thing TTW needs to do is find a nonprofit (preferably staffed by lawyers and knowledgeable advocates) that can regularly help you deal with problems from Social Services and other government programs. These problems are devastating whenever a casual error occurs. You need to be able to handle them quickly on your end. I'm so lucky to have found where to go for that help, some agency or program screws up almost monthly - knowing where to go to fax a quick appeal with a legal signature is a life saver!

TTW does not sound like she's in a condition to easily locate these things for herself. She may even need a referral. It feels like a catch-22 to advocate for yourself as incapable when you are showing you are capable by advocating for yourself! Sigh. I once made a list of all the contradictions I was caught in - it was about a page long.

Thank you again for your attempt to try to lift the burden of the dog, even though it failed. I really fear that factor is going to be the one that drives TTW into homelessness. If she can just find a place that promises to give Yoshi back to her, she may still be willing to release him despite feeling that her trust was broken now. She can't take care of Yoshi, and I'm sure she wants the best for him.

For everyone who has seen me grouch about the original Clinton "reform of Welfare as We Know it", why I keep harping on welfare as something akin to torture now, and why I keep pointing out that Hillary has not addressed these problems in her welfare platform: this is the reason. For people in this particular situation, which I understand well, the system is broken, and no politician is making a move to fix it or even acknowledging the issue. There needs to be bridge rent programs to keep people in their homes BEFORE they become homeless, and their needs to be a revival of social work for easier access to wrap-around services so you don't have to become "chronically homeless" first.

Bless you again, msanthrope (and ex).

[LiberalAndProud]

341. You raise interesting questions. I'm not sure there are right answers.

Caring for an animal is an expensive proposition, even for the most thrifty of us. Food and vet care are required at the very least. Should society in general be ethically required to provide this care for animals when their owners fall on hard times? It seems impossible to engage in that conversation before we have even adequately addressed the most basic human needs for those who find themselves impoverished. TTW would make the argument that Yoshi is a service animal and her well being depends on him. It may be a valid argument, but it falls on deaf ears. I tend to think, perhaps callously so, that if you aren't able to provide for yourself, you can't be expected to be able to care for an animal.

I think of the heartbreak that animal hoarders endure when starved and neglected animals are removed from their home. The emotional pain is real, but I don't think that should take precedent over the well being of the animals.

We provide a modicum of care for children when their mothers find themselves in this position. We have far to go before we are ready to provide the same benefit for people with pets.

You have drawn an analogy between your books and Yoshi. The difference is, it is possible to box up the books and place them in a storage locker until such a time as you're able to retrieve them. They don't require food or medical care. They don't present a possible danger to the people who find themselves in their vicinity. And the books don't experience stress and anxiety in your absence. The reason the rescue groups don't do temporary homing is not because they want to be vindictive to the owner. It is because temporary homing is not a good outcome for the animal.

We have no way for us to know what TTW's health issues are. We don't know her history. I will say that I don't think her family is uncaring or hateful. I have had to disengage from a person who I very much love because there is no amount of help I can give them that will allow them to thrive. The cycle is endless. In my case, alcoholism is a factor, but I think there are other diseases and maladies that are equally help-resistant.

I appreciate your advocacy for TTW when general sentiment seems to be trending in the opposite direction. I think that this is a conversation that needs to begin. And why not begin it here?

[Oneironaut]

279. I'm humbled by your generosity and kindness. Thank you!!!

Though it didn't work out, you did the best that you could in an unwinnable situation.

[MineralMan]

283. Per your latest update: I fear this will not end well.

You tried your best.

[TDale313]

287. Sigh. My heart sank a little when I saw she had reclaimed Yoshi.

I'm not surprised, and I know how much he means to her and that a lot of the decisions she's made were because she wanted, above everything, to avoid giving him up. And I truly wish her and Yoshi the best. But what now? Where can she take him? This is, I fear, not a good development for either of them.

[Quackers]

294. Yep. Yoshi will suffer because of this decision. Poor thing.

[gwheezie]

288. I have no way of knowing ttw

So most of what I'm going to post is assumptions. There is a reason why some people cannot get help from the people who know them best. Or multiple agencies have failed to help them. Because there is no solution to the problem within the parameters of what is acceptable to the person seeking help.
The helper is always going to fail which justifies the helpee moving on to the next helper rather than changing their own behavior. On some level this approach has worked to get some temporary relief from the crisis from the next set of helpers.

[PeaceNikki]

297. Sigh... you are a mensch.

I have some friends who are going through something similar as TTW and I had to entirely remove myself from it all. They're jobless, homeless and had to find foster care for their pets and child. They've been living off of the generosity of others for over a year now. In their case there's an additional (known to me) element of drug abuse. I cannot and will not enable that or be dragged down with them. My heart aches for you and your ex who tried to help and were met with such a slap in the face.

[elehhhhna]

327. hugs to everyone involved

[Facility Inspector]

325. Wow, this thing went off the charts on the Nutsotometer

Yup, every good deed will be punished.

But if you put your life on public display for financial gain, you sometimes have to hear less than kind words in the same way you get to take the money.

[KittyWampus]

330. As someone with two brothers who are mentally ill and have to take meds

every day of their lives and who cannot make decisions for themselves…. your "nutsotometer" comment is distasteful.

And no, I don't think I'm being overly sensitive or attempting political correctness.

In the context of this thread, your word choice is extremely unfortunate.

[Facility Inspector]

352. very overly sensitive

and extremely pc.

I am mentally ill myself with several psychiatric hospitalizations under my belt, so spare me.

[bravenak]

380. Yeah, me too, been there multiple times.

Still damn offensive. This is not your living room. This IS a PC place. So knock off the nutsometer stuff, it ain't okay.

[irisblue]

384. Bravenak is right

I, too, am receiving mental health services from a local agency. I can say I am 'crazy' there, with others like me in that space. DU has a group fro mental health concerns, join us. That phrase is not appropriate in General Discussion, this is not PCism, this is being aware of where you are posting.

[woolldog]

333. Looks like all the people piling on SheilaT

owe her an apology. Doubt she'll get one though.

[curlyred]

344. SheilaT was unkind in her responses

and is not owed an apology.

[Facility Inspector]

354. According to what standard?

I've been following these threads since last weekend, I didn't detect anything mean or unkind about her posts.

[darkangel218]

361. Wow, ok. you should try reading them again then.

[daredtowork]

362. You only have 88 posts

And your other posts in this thread have been to the effect that "Internet panhandling is bad".

My theory is this account was created to exonerate or add weight to the idea that some of the posters that were highly criticized in this thread are actually "righteous" and "mainstream".

Demit, for instance, is busily trying to create that effect.

Good luck with that.

[Person 2713]

372. You notice that too? SMH

[Facility Inspector]

385. What does that have to do with anything?

You're displaying low post count bigotry.

You do realize people with low post counts can follow a story within a week?

[woolldog]

363. She was spot on in her analysis

and deserves an apology.

[darkangel218]

365. No she was not.

She accused TTW to be a scammer. How the hell was she spot on with that????

[woolldog]

370. She correctly argued

that something was off in this whole situation. Given that TTW is trying to SUE the individual on DU who has tried the most to help her and that she has been shown to be batshit crazy, Id say she's been vindicated.

[Sheldon Cooper]

376. Look. We all KNEW that TTW had some mental health issues going on,which were complicating the

situation. Of course there was something "off in this whole situation." It was as plain as day from the very first post she made, all those months ago. Instead of berating her for her illness, we all had several options: ignore her, offer support, suggestions and help (including money), and finally, as Sheila and a few others did, hound her and hound her over choices made in the throes of extreme anxiety, depression, and yes, mental illness.

Now really, which of these two were the high road, and which one was the low?

Vindicated, my ass.

And furthermore, Sheila was the only one who bluntly stated that she found the whole thing "entertaining". Finding the ills of another amusing? That's really pretty sick.

[daredtowork]

392. That was her reaction to finding her dog had been taken away

when she had only given up her dog when she believed she had found someone who had lift that burden for a while and would give him back. That's what she had needed for a long time and couldn't find.

"Batshit crazy"??? TTW is under a lot of stress. I'm sure you'd be acting much the same in her situation.

[trueblue2007]

377. NO ONE OWES HER AN APOLOGY. She was horrible in her statements. MEAN!!!

[Texasgal]

379. She certainly will not get one from me!

She was mean and nasty and I have a very looong memory. I hope she put me on ignore.

[Person 2713]

381. She didn't believe the dog even existed without a picture when this post started!

Many DUers in on the scam apparently
Mean and weird
Or she has scammed a lot herself

[emsimon33]

369. You went above and beyond and should be thanked and blessed

Your ex also deserved gratitude and a blessing. My heart goes out to Yoshi and TTW. What a world we live in!