Facts are difficult to come by in the Trayvon Martin Case, and

[MineralMan]

have been from the start. At the beginning of the case, there was incredibly little information that could be confirmed. Both news sources and others tended to fill in the gaps with suppositions and theories, which ran the gamut from likely to bizarre and unlikely.

Most people formed opinions regarding the case and took definite sides in the matter. Once that happens, it becomes difficult to deal with new information that emerges about the case. Even now, we are hearing conflicting stories about different aspects of what happened. Some facts are clear; others are far from clear.

So, what to do about forming a solid opinion of what charges are correct and what charges may not be correct? Personally, I'm waiting for the trial. I have the opinion that Zimmerman made very serious errors in judgment then ended with a teenager's death. I believe he is culpable in that death, since not doing several of the things he did would have prevented it. I'm of the opinion that Trayvon Martin was on an innocent personal errand, and was confronted by Zimmerman. He may have reacted to that with violence in defense of himself.

What will the jury rule? I do not know. I know that they're going to hear what happened, as best as it can be recounted, and then they're going to decide. At the same time, we'll have a chance to see information presented in one place and in some sort of order. So, we'll all have some additional information, and may discover that some of the things we thought were facts were not facts at all.

Then, I'll be able to form a more solid opinion. Then, I'll be able to comment in a rational way. Right now? I don't have all the facts clearly laid out and without interpretation. Then, I will.

After the trial, I'll be ready to comment on this case and say what I think. I'm just not sure enough of what happened, in detail, to say that much at this point. George Zimmerman is responsible for shooting Trayvon Martin. That I'm sure of. The rest? Not so much.

[99th_Monkey]

1. What sickens me is how much money is being sent to Zimmerman

Last edited Sat May 19, 2012, 03:46 PM - Edit history (1)

to cover his legal fees ...in all, over $215,000. it's chilling that
so many people want to live in a world where people with the "wrong"
color skin can be gunned down at will by well-connected whites
(Yah, I know Zimmerman is 1/2 latino, but he is considered "white"
in my book and his dad was a well connected judge of some
kind)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-17/zimmerman-defense-fund/55041004/1

[MineralMan]

2. I'm not following it all that closely, so that isn't information

I care about. I have absolutely no idea how much money has been sent for his defense. Does anyone? When the trial begins, I'll look more closely. There are plenty of ugly murder cases in my own area. They interest me more.

[99th_Monkey]

17. Actually, I was wrong about the amount

It's just over $15,000, not in millions.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-17/zimmerman-defense-fund/55041004/1

Sorry, I thought I saw a much larger figure elsewhere. so I'll try to edit my comment accordingly.

[MineralMan]

20. Yes, well...

There's lots of that going around. As I said, it's very difficult to sort out what is fact and what is speculation, right now, which is the point of my OP. You've demonstrated my point very nicely.

[99th_Monkey]

25. new info. it is over $215,000 in all.

two different accounts/websites.

one over $15,000, and the other $200,000.

Just for the record.

[MineralMan]

3. Zimmerman isn't some "well-connected" anything.

He's a schlub. A mall-cop wannabe. A loser. His own powerlessness is largely responsible for his acquiring and carrying a handgun. That was the only thing that gave him any sense of importance. There are many like him. Their lives are unsubstantial and mundane.

[99th_Monkey]

15. Huh?

In this CBS report, near the bottom of page.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57417621/judge-grants-$150k-bail-for-george-zimmerman/
"George's father, retired magistrate Robert Zimmerman Sr.,
said he saw scars on his son's head after the confrontation."


Why all the vitriol? I think people should know that GZ's dad was likely
"pulling strings" behind the scenes throughout this tragic display of injustice.

[MineralMan]

19. Actually, you are assuming that his father was

pulling strings. He was a small time judge in another state, not some powerful judicial figure. I've seen zero evidence that he has any "pull" to use in Florida. George Zimmerman is a high school graduate and part-time college student at a community college. He was essentially unemployed and had nothing, really. I'm not sure you know what a "magistrate" actually is in the state where he held that position. It's sort of a justice of the peace equivalent. Not a powerful position at all.

You see, you're proving what I said. You have some "information," but it's not fully understood, nor even necessarily accurate. As far as I can determine, there has been nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that Robert Zimmerman "pulled strings" at all. That's something that is a speculation, not a fact.

That's why I'm withholding my opinion of exactly what George Zimmerman is guilty of until the trial is over. He's culpable, but the criminal charge he's guilty of is not at all clear yet.

[Voice for Peace]

30. A fair inference I think

is that the magistrate didn't successfully nurture his
son's mental health.

Possibly he was bullied growing up, possibly by father
or perhaps he was utterly neglected. Somewhere he
learned that he had no value unless he was a big tough
guy. Picture from his past looks like person with very
low self-esteem & very unhealthy lifestyle.

None of this is to excuse Zimmerman.

However compassion is not an exclusive human emotion.
Compassion is the nature of life itself, that's why there's
a brand new sunrise every day. That's why fish keep
spawning even when their offspring have three heads, they
love 'em anyway. That's why little flowers bust through
concrete and in the worst polluted places. Relentless life,
relentless compassion. A fresh start every moment.

Zimmerman will get justice, I don't doubt it, though I don't
know what that should be, and neither does anybody else.
My belief is that he will at some point have to feel the pain
of that gunshot, and all of the sorrow it caused, multiplied.
Whether he is in jail or a free man, or on his death bed,
one day he will have to feel that, and it will be horrible,
it will be agony.

External punishment doesn't create remorse. Sometimes
it provides a shock to the system, and a setting where the
criminal can face himself.

But just as often, or more often, it provides an environment
where the criminal's self-delusion and self-justification is
reinforced. Almost everyone in jail feels wronged, it's
natural.

[MineralMan]

34. "That's why fish keep spawning even when their offspring have three heads"

Most fish species do nothing to care for their young. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions. Most fish spawn and go, leaving their young to survive or die, depending on conditions. Fish that do care for their young, like the sunfish family and black bass, do so for only a short time. After that time, they're as likely to eat their young as another food source.

It's not a good analogy, I'm afraid.

[Voice for Peace]

35. I'm not good at analogies off the cuff

and probably a lot of damaged offspring in nature don't
ever get loved.. but maybe the gist of what I was saying
came through.

I see a hopeful urge & a goodness that keeps on going,
no matter what we do wrong, keeps offering us another
chance.

The trees keep making oxygen, they don't stop to hate
the ones who are polluting the air. There is a kindness
in the energy behind everything living. The sun rises on
Zimmerman & the rest of us, exactly the same. It doesn't
rain down darkness on anybody.

Something there is that doesn't judge, Life itself: gives us
the freedom & ability to judge ourselves, but not others.

[MineralMan]

39. What you're seeing is biology at work.

Trees don't hate. They don't think, either. They reproduce, because that's how organisms continue. Trees use carbon dioxide and emit oxygen, because that's what trees, along with most other plants do. They evolved to do that. Carbon is important for life. Plants get it from carbon dioxide. Oxygen is less useful to plants, so it is dumped by the plants, and used by animals who require it, and which then emit carbon dioxide. Evolution happened to work that way, you see. There's no thinking or altruism involved. It's just how life works.

The sun isn't "kind." The sun is a star. It knows nothing, since it is not a sentient thing. It just is, and the laws of physics apply to it. Life just is. The universe just is. It doesn't have emotions or thoughts.

Anthropomorphizing nature is not useful in any way. Understanding it is useful. Humans can understand nature, to some degree. That's our survival mechanism.

[Voice for Peace]

40. I think anthropomorphizing is part of my survival mechanism

but besides that, there's a kindness that is neither emotion nor
thought, in my perception; but we may be tripping over the use
of words. And for the record I am not religious nor believe in any
god that can be defined.

But I am curious, where you consider the urge to love, and the
urge to create, where does that urge come from?
What is that about in your opinion? I'm not interested
in debate, but I do like to know how others view life.

[MineralMan]

41. From our brains.

Humans have large brains, capable of many things, including creativity and love. Some other animals may have similar thing, but I cannot know.

It's all part of our evolutionary development. Creativity is an aid to survival, clearly. Love is an aid to successful reproduction. Our emotions are all evolved things. Even anger is evolutionally beneficial.

Seems pretty simple to me.

[Voice for Peace]

42. thanks!

[Kaleva]

37. Robert Z completed a 4 day training course to be a magistrate in Virginia

A job he had for 6 years. One didn't even have to be a college graduate to be a magistrate.

The requirements to be a magistrate where increased in 2008 but this was after Robert Z served as one.

[elleng]

11. As I recall, his counsel is not accepting compensation.

AND zim's dad was NOT a 'well-connected judge,' he was a small-time administrative law judge in Virginia I think.

[99th_Monkey]

16. Why are you deliberately downplaying this?

So in this small rural Florida community, you don't think GZ's
father (former LOCAL magistrate) would not be on cozy terms
with the LOCAL cops?

Your argument seems to try to minimize this likelihood?

Why pray tell?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. I don't see it as being downplayed.

It's simply a fact that Zimmerman's father is a retired magistrate (not an actual judge) from another state, specifically, Virginia. He may or may not have had any local (that is, Sanford, FL) connections with law enforcement. What he does have is knowledge of criminal law in general, which would certainly be helpful in fashioning a story for the police that would help his son support his claim that he was acting within the parameters of the "stand your ground" law.

[elleng]

22. Thanks, Oce!

[Kaleva]

38. To be a magistrate in Virginia, one isn't required to have knowledge of criminal law.

They are prohibited from giving out legal advice as they aren't trained in the law.

[elleng]

21. Try the facts: He was a magistrate in VIRGINIA.

First, I'm a person, second, a U.S. citizen, third, an attorney, and I KNOW that FACTS MATTER. I am not trying to 'minimize' any 'likelihood.'

AND, Sanford is NOT a 'small rural' community.

'Sanford is a city in the central region of the U.S. state of Florida. It is the county seat of Seminole County. As of the 2010 U.S. Census, the city had a population of 53,570. It is a principal city of the Orlando–Kissimmee–Sanford, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area, which was home to 2,134,411 people as of the 2010 U.S. Census.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford,_Florida

[99th_Monkey]

27. I stand corrected. Thanks for the additional info. ~nt

[elleng]

29. You're welcome, 99th.

[Rex]

4. Actually I am more interested to see what the FBI is going to do.

nt.

[MineralMan]

7. Yes, that, too. They're not saying much,

which is probably best. Too many people have said a lot, and it's all been confusing.

[Rex]

13. Yes and the fact they are not saying anything

is speaking volumes to me. Almost as if they are waiting for some reason.

[MineralMan]

23. If they follow the usual course, they won't

bring any federal charges until after the local trial is over. And the FBI never releases much information, anyhow, unlike local authorities, who just can't seem to keep quiet at all.

[Rex]

32. Yes I am expecting a lot more fireworks after the local trial.

nt.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. An acquaintance of mine

who is, shall we say, a gun enthusiast, was going on about just the other day how Martin was an enormous kid and a "gang-banger" who got himself justifiably shot because he was beating the crap out of Zimmerman, and that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton should just STFU.

I pointed out that the discovery materials that had just been released (including the autopsy report) showed that Martin was 5"11" and 158 lbs. (not exactly enormous), and that his only injury other than the gunshot wound was a small abrasion on his left ring finger (not the knuckles), which is inconsistent with the results of beating the crap out of somebody. I also told him that Martin had no criminal record and had not been a member of a gang, and that his only known infraction was a suspension from his high school (where he was a good student with high grades) because he was found with an empty plastic bag that had apparently contained pot. I told him these were established facts, not the opinions of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, and he should check it out himself, from a source other than Fox News.

*silence* Then...

"Well, I guess we're just going to have to wait for the results of the trial, I mean we really don't have all the facts yet, do we...?"

I said, we do have some of the facts. Check 'em out.

I guess folks don't always like facts unless they support what they already believed to be true.

[MineralMan]

10. We have some facts and some non-facts.

As I said, I'm following cases in my own area. When this gets to the trial stage, it will get more of my attention.

[elleng]

6. PUBLIC information may have been difficult to come by,

as it should have been. Now the Prosecutor has released lots of information, which may or may not be everything everyone is curious about.

[MineralMan]

8. Yup. Well, it will be presented at the trial in an order

that makes sense. I assume the prosecution has the skills to do that.

[elleng]

9. Yes, indeed.

Sounds like she has such skills.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. Yes. And the prosecutor will be very, very careful

since this case is so controversial and high-profile. I have to surmise they have evidence we haven't seen yet that supports Zimmerman's guilt, even under FL's stupid "stand your ground" law (at this stage they only have to disclose Brady evidence, which is evidence that could be exculpatory).

The stickier wicket, I think, is how the law was intended to be applied: If you instigate a confrontation that causes the other person to fight back so you now fear for your safety, is it still OK to shoot him? Does the person you started the fight with also have the right to stand his ground? If Martin had been armed would he have been justified in shooting Zimmerman at some point?

This will not be resolved easily or soon; even if Zimmerman is convicted there will certainly be an appeal.

[MineralMan]

14. All of those things will be part of the trial argument.

They'll be supported, as far as is possible, by evidence. The jury is the wild card here. A hung jury will not be a surprise to me at all. As with DU juries, there's often someone who sees things differently than the rest, or who comes to the case full of prejudice.

The trial will be interesting. I just don't find the speculation about this case to be that interesting. Many people appear to be reaching conclusions that are poorly supported by actual information. It's an emotional case at this point. We shall see.

[cynatnite]

24. It seems to me that they (Zimmerman's legal team) are doing so much leaking...

that they are attempting to sway potential jurors.

I feel I can safely say that Zimmerman racially profiled Trayvon and he shot him.

I also think the police completely botched the investigation directly after the shooting which is why I don't feel I can trust the evidence.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Lot of ignoring of facts here for some reason

Pretty sure Florida has similar laws concerning an adult assaulting a minor as we do in Illinois.

I know here in Illinois if an adult just grabs or hits an unarmed minor that adult would be going to prison. Only question would be for how long.

But yet in this case we have an adult shooting and killing an unarmed minor and there seems to be some question about if what the adult did was wrong or not?

This doesn't make sense.

Don

[MH1]

36. YES. And if it had been a police officer who shot Martin, there'd have been more of an investigation

That's what really blows my mind.

Imagine if Zimmerman actually WAS a cop and had shot a teenager.

[sabrina 1]

28. We know this, that had there been no public outcry, this case would never have gone to

trial.

We also know that a teenager is dead, that the accused has a history of violence, some on the record. We know that without the accused's actions, the teenager would be alive today. We also know that a teenager should be able to go to the store and return alive in this country.

The only question left is the degree of the crime. There is no doubt that a crime was committed. I don't get the denials of that fact or the attempts to minimize it. Someone is dead and we know who killed him. All that is left to decide is whether it was as charged, 2nd degree murder or manslaughter or whether or not a deal will be made to reduce the charges and consequences.

But there is no doubt that a crime was committed. Apparently both the police detective and the prosecution agree.

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. +1

[HiPointDem]

31. Someone on another thread linked a raft of documents from the case. Fact is, the media

is releasing them selectively.