Trayvon Martin ran from George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman ran him down.

[Egalitariat]

Is that right?

[notadmblnd]

1. GZ got out of his car armed and pursued Trayvon Martin- after being told not to

That is a fact.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Advised, not directed

[notadmblnd]

18. he called the police department and the officer on dispatch said "we don't need you to do that"

Those were the exact words after GZ replied to the question "are you following him"

the call I listened to did not answer "911, what is your emergency" or "City name, 911 what is your emergency", it answered "Sanford Police Department". When an officer tells one that they don't need a person to do something, it is not generally advice.

Listen for yourself

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68871920/News/George-Zimmerman-911-call-reporting-Trayvon-Martin

[ashling]

25. Dispatcher should have instructed Z

I agree that this sounds more like advice. At least it seems to have been taken that way . . . if it mattered at all to Z. What Zimmerman obviously needed in this situation was direct instruction to break off his pursuit.

Think of the cliche: "tell it to him/me like he/I was a 5 year old."

[notadmblnd]

42. I would concede that it was advice if the instruction came from a 911 dispatch

But the instruction came from a police officer.

I can't help but wonder why a certain number of people that post here are so eager to defend GZ and if this had happened to one of their loved ones, a son, a daughter or grand child, if their feelings would be the same?

[ashling]

45. I am not trying to defend Z

However, I think any assessment of the situation necessitates an accurate picture. Again, I am not offering a defense of Z.

[JDPriestly]

61. The dispatcher was asking Zimmerman to act reasonably.

Zimmerman did not.

An order was not needed in order for a jury to consider whether Zimmerman acted as a reasonable person would have acted under the circumstances.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. Again, you have nothing to indicate it was an officer

And no one else is making that claim, all transcripts say dispatcher etc.

I have listened to the tape...I don't hear the dispatcher call themselves "officer: etc

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

27. Oh please...

I was in Orlando about six years ago and there was some sort of armed domestic dispute in the complex where I had rented a condo.

The sheriff "suggested" in a very folksy way that I go order a plate of shrimp at Pondarosa rather than returning to my room. Do you really think that was anything other than an order to stay the fuck away?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Apples and Oranges

Being a sworn LEO makes all the difference.

The point I am making is that those who claimed Zimmerman ignored police orders are wrong. When they lead with that, any further argument they make is devalued/dismissed since they can not get something basic, in this case that the 911 operator has not authority to order anyone to do anything, the rest of what they say is equally questionable.


What the 911 operator said was advisory in nature, very good advice and had he followed it none of this would have happened. Zimmerman owns the death of Martin morally. Hopefully legally as well.

[notadmblnd]

50. Here's something that you don't seem to understand GZ did not call 911 he called Sanford PD

you want proof? Listen to all the calls to authorities collected here.

GZ's call is answered by the Sanford PD all other calls are answered by 911. That means "A sworn law enforcement officer" did tell GZ not to follow TM. As you said, it makes all the difference!

GZ owns the death of TM legally too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. That is the first time I have heard that it was an LEO that Zimmerman spoke to that night before the

shooting. Any sources to help with that? Note that a certified public safety telecommunicator is not an LEO

[notadmblnd]

56. I knew you would come up with something to rationalize and justify it in your mind.

I live in a township of about 50k people that is comparable to Sanford. When I call the police department for a non-emergency, an officer with a badge and a gun on their hip answers the phone. I've been at the department when an officer has answered the phone. I posted an entire collection of calls that night. The first call being the conversation with GZ and the Sanford PD. The calls after are the calls from neighbors speaking with 911. You don't have to listen to the entire 40 mintes, the first 3 calls will show you that the Sanford PD answers Sanford Police Deprtment. 911 dispatch answers 911. You fail. Try again.


certified public safety telecommunicator = 911 dispatcher.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2012/1227



CS/HB 1227: Certification of 911 Public Safety Telecommunicators

Track This Bill

View Bill Summary

Glossary of Legislative Terms

GENERAL BILL by Judiciary Committee; Drake; Passidomo; (CO-INTRODUCERS) Campbell; Gonzalez; Julien; Weinstein; Williams, A.; Williams, T.

Certification of 911 Public Safety Telecommunicators; Revises requirements for certification of 911 public safety telecommunicators; provides conditions under which requirement for certification as 911 public safety telecommunicator may be waived for certain law enforcement officers; provides for exemption from examination fee.

Last Action: 03/25/2012 Chapter No. 2012-24

Effective Date: July 1, 2012


Below I have reposted your words verbatim. Tell me, what should everyone think about the value of your argument now?

"The point I am making is that those who claimed Zimmerman ignored police orders are wrong. When they lead with that, any further argument they make is devalued/dismissed since they can not get something basic, in this case that the 911 operator has not authority to order anyone to do anything, the rest of what they say is equally questionable."

.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. Have a link to what you posted?

[notadmblnd]

60. see post #50

[sabrina 1]

57. If I called 911 about a suspicious person and was asked if I was following them, after responding

'yes' if the operator, PO or not, said to me 'we do not need you to do that', I would know what he meant. That my following this person was not a good idea at all. And most intelligent people do listen to that kind of advice from 911 operators. Zimmerman chose to ignore it and we see the results of that.

[JDPriestly]

63. I think the question will be whether he acted reasonably under the circumstances,

not whether he followed an order. The statement by the 911 or police authority on the phone will help determine whether he acted reasonably. It sets a standard with regard to what the 911 operator or officer thought was reasonable. Whether that standard will be applied will be determined, but that statement may be considered by the jury -- might not, but it may be.

If 911 suggests that I do something, I would normally figure that 911 had more experience and knowledge regarding my emergency than I did and would follow what the 911 operator or officer told me.

But Zimmerman didn't really have an emergency, so even though most of us refer to his first call as a 911 call and even though I think that the news stories have defined it as such, I think that he probably did not call 911 but called a police officer.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. That should be considered by the jury when assessing his mental state

It was not a prima facie violation of law, which some people are foolishly clinging to.

[magical thyme]

62. Well, the HOA that Zimmerman represented specifically instructs watchmen to not intervene

but to simply call police and stay out of it.

Zimmerman disregarded the HOA's specific training / directives.

And yes, at least one person witnessed a chase scene. And Martin's girlfriend's deposition corroborates a pursuit and that the only reason Martin stopped running and turned to confront him was because Zimmerman was catching up with him and he was out of breath. She also heard Martin yell "Get off! Get off!" and what sounded like Martin being shoved before the phone went dead. And Zimmerman's dna was found on the lower sleeves of Martin's hoodie. Like maybe he grabbed his arms.

So that would certainly sound like running somebody down. Zimmerman ran his quarry to ground.

[Blue_Tires]

65. but why didn't he follow the advice?

what did he see that was supposedly such a clear and present danger to the neighborhood that he was compelled to act immediately?

[kayakjohnny]

2. I've always wondered... If it's a gated community, there is usually a guard at the guard house

who accepts or rejects people at the gate.

If this all happened inside the gated community, why wouldn't Zim at least consider that this kid had been approved to be in there.

I realize that pedestrians can slip past guard houses rather easily, but wouldn't Zim have second thoughts that maybe Trev had been pre-approved by the guard to be in area?

Or, were there simply no guards on duty in this gated community?

Or, was this not even a gated community to begin with?

Even though the press calls it that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Only in the high end ones, and Zimmerman's is not

[uppityperson]

3. What do you mean "ran him down"? There are several possible ways of taking that.

[The Doctor.]

8. Actually, no. There is a very well-understood 'way of taking that'.

It means to 'chase' someone and intercept them.

Why on Earth would you think the OP meant anything else unless you're not native to American English?

[uppityperson]

12. "Ran him down" to me usually means in a vehicle. Why on earth would you feel the need to insult

me and snark when I asked for clarification from someone else?

[Peregrine]

4. Nobody knows

No witness saw that part of the confrontation

[abelenkpe]

5. His friend on the phone heard it

Is she not a witness?

[magical thyme]

64. actually an eye witness did see two men in a chase

and subsequent fight.

Martin's girlfriend corroborates the chase in her description of their phone call.

[ZombieHorde]

6. Martin's girlfriend said Martin called her and said he was scared of creepy guy following him.

Then she said Martin ran but the creepy guy caught up to him.

[Blue_Tires]

7. you tell us...is it?

[Bolo Boffin]

9. "These assholes always get away." - George Zimmerman n/t

[Amerigo Vespucci]

10. He had to run him down. He was standing his ground. Why do you hate America?

And ANYONE who's ready ANY of my Martin / Zimmerman posts knows that's sarcasm.

The fucker hunted him down and murdered him in cold blood and I hope he FRIES for it.

[malaise]

37. He won' t fry

Now Trayvon would have fried if he stood his ground and stalked and killed a teenager.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

43. I know...what I've said consistently is that he's gonna walk.

I do believe that. I don't believe he'll spend time behind bars. If he has half a brain in that fucking head he'll grow out his hair, grow a beard, and leave the country. This little prick will become the trophy du jour the minute he steps out on the street as a "free man." As a country, we never grew out of the "Wild West" mentality. The headcases out there who would like to make a "name" for themselves by taking this little shit down are legion.

[malaise]

44. I don't think he'll walk

but he'll only get a few years for manslaughter when it was premeditated murder by your typical racist bouncer.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

55. Here is the underlying issue that concerns me...

...the "stand your ground" law, which...as we all know...is "on trial" along with Zimmerman.

Convict him, it points a finger at a flawed law.

Let him walk, and you set a bad precedent for any other nutcase carrying a concealed weapon. All they have to do is make sure they kill the other guy so that only one side (and any "witness testimony&quot makes it to court.

I don't know. If Zimmerman gets a slap on the wrist sentence, they'd better put him in the "isolated celebrity wing."

[malaise]

69. Excellent point

but that stand your ground law has to go.

[Quixote1818]

11. A witness said there was a chase with one person about 10 feet behind the other

Last edited Sun May 20, 2012, 12:34 AM - Edit history (1)

and Trayvon's girlfriend said Trayvon ran and then stopped running as the nutty person got closer.

[Skip Intro]

21. What The Fuck is a "Whiteness?" (edited)

Last edited Sun May 20, 2012, 03:37 AM - Edit history (2)

On edit, the post I replied to originally said "whiteness" in place of witness in the subject line.

I hesitate to read much into that, but it was there, and was what I responded to, and has since been edited to read "witness."

Just explaining my reply in light of the late edit.

[Youngat50]

26. I've not read that witness statement

What page of the police report is that witness statement on? I haven't seen that.

Also, I find Trayvon's girlfriend's story to lack credibility due to the fact that she did not come forward and tell the police immediately that she had spoken to him, nor what was said, until weeks later. Why on earth would she do that? I don't believe the "she was too emotional" excuse for the weeks delay in reporting it.

I suspect that she laid low and didn't report it because things were said in her conversation with him that could negate the story of him being innocent in the matter (perhaps he said something about how he was going to beat up the guy following him)...and she was afraid a recording of the conversation was available. If the truth came out, it would blow the claim that Martin did nothing wrong, out of the water.

Any other girlfriend of a man that had just been murdered would give all information available that would help put the killer behind bars.

[Quixote1818]

28. So do you think Zimmerman's story lacks credibility too?

After all he never told the 911 dispatcher that Martin was circling his car but said so to Police. He also told the dispatcher he thought Martin was "late teens" and then in court told Martin's parents he thought Martin was his age. Zimmerman has a history of being a bully and even getting into a fight with police. Zimmerman is all over the place and yet you question the girlfriend as being honest and not Zimmerman? Interesting.


On the other hand, the girlfriends statement lined up with everything that came out about the night. Keep in mind she wouldn't have known what the police knew and she also clearly was on the line the whole time Zimmerman observed Martin up until one minute before Martin was ki lled. Cell records prove this. So when she gave her account and it lines up with everything that happened, how could they think she was lying? Especially since she doesn't say anything major that would completely incriminate Zimmerman. Her story sounds completely credible to me. Zimmerman clearly followed Martin quite some distance on foot, there is no doubt about that and Martin was talking on the phone the whole time.

The police never contacted her and she probably just assumed as a 17 year old might that she should wait until they did. They eventually did and she gave her statement.

[Youngat50]

34. The "source" said...

The "source familiar with the investigation" him/herself stated that Zimmerman's story to the police hasn't changed at all. The source is claiming that while Zimmerman gave this (circling the car) detail to police in his statement, he simply didn't describe that occurring when he was on the phone with police. If true, I don't consider that an inconsistency. It means that Zimmerman didn't give a police statement while on the phone with 911. He gave it after the incident to police - which is when such details are typically given. A police statement is obtained in a "sit down and tell us what happened" environment...not a "tell us what is happening right now while we are in emergency mode and talking via 911" mode.

The source also is stating that Zimmerman told police that Martin had his hand over Zimmerman's mouth, and this indicates a discrepancy in Zimmerman's story that he yelled for help, which is BS. Unless Zimmerman claimed that Martin had his hand over his mouth the entire struggle, this is a moot point.

These are classic examples of how easily non-facts get turned into facts by the media.

What do you mean she couldn't have known what police knew. She knew what had already been reported just like everyone else. Every thing in her story could have been fabricated to match what Martin's family and supporters want the story to be. And her story does indeed incriminate Zimmerman. She says she heard Trayvon yell, not Zimmerman. She goes on an on about how scared Martin was of Zimmerman and that Zimmerman was chasing him, and she told him to run. And she specifically said: "...and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell."

Yes, this young lady's story fits just perfect with what she, Martin's family, and his supporters want the scenario to look like. If a 17 year old doesn't know that they have extremely pertinent information related to a crime because they spoke with the deceased minutes before the killing, then I have to wonder about the intelligence of such a person.

[Quixote1818]

47. The fact is we don't know who started the fight but we do know

Martin was probably in fear for his life which gives him a right to use force. Clearly you are more willing to believe a guy who started a fight with the police, calls his ex-girlfriend a ho after she said he was abusive to her and was fired for bullying and making racial slurs to a fellow employee. But you question a young girl and a dead boy who has ZERO history of violence. You really need to look in the mirror and question why your mind thinks that way. Is that really how you would react if it was your kid in this story? I really doubt it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. Your argument is based on reasonable person concept

and requires knowledge of the conversation and actions which are not independently available. Without *something* the claim that Martin was legally allowed to escalate a verbal conversation into physical attack is very weak, since the bar for that is quite high. BTDT. It would also be fodder in support of Zimmerman's claim of justifiable homicide.

The jury will take into account that the GF did not come forward sooner should the prosecution enter the call into evidence. The jury will also take into account that Zimmerman did not follow the advice of 911 and stay in his truck. The jury will never hear about prior bad acts.

[uppityperson]

52. You "wonder about the intelligence of" Tray's girlfriend? Good grief and good bye.

[99Forever]

54. A person with 17 posts to their handle...

.. defending the wannabe cop/killer.

I think I've seen this movie before. Enjoy your brief stay at DU.

[JDPriestly]

67. She will be cross-examined, and the jury will decide her credibility.

That's what juries are for. That's why the outcome is unpredictable.

It may happen that Zimmerman is convicted of a lesser charge or that he plea bargains or that he is found innocent on the criminal charge and liable on a civil claim. It is completely unpredictable. Juries and judges are quixotic. That is why his attorney may advise him to take a settlement offer is one is available.

[magical thyme]

68. Zimmerman's claim of Martin circling his car makes no sense

1. If he was so afraid of Martin supposedly circling his car that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation, as he claimed in his police statement, then why did he leave his car? Why not FOLLOW HIS HOA INSTRUCTIONS to NOT ENGAGE OR GET INVOLVED, BUT TO JUST CALL 911 AND LET THE POLICE HANDLE IT?

2. He never mentioned to the LEO on the phone that Martin was circling his car. He specifically said Martin approached, looked at him and then disappeared. It's not a police statement detail -- he was giving the LEO on the phone a blow-by-blow as it happened. But long before the killing. To justify SYG killing requires him to prove he feared for his life. It is the sort of detail someone might invent after-the-fact to justify the level of fear.

3. Why would a teenager think her cell phone conversation with her boyfriend might be taped? Seriously? If it was weeks before her statement was taken, it's not because she wasn't trying to give them her statement. It's because they weren't returning her calls.

[Lilyeye]

31. So you joined DU just to say this? Interesting.

[Youngat50]

35. Actually, no.

[alphafemale]

33. "the guy following him"

...and in FL why would a juvenile not have the right to stand his ground when he is being pursued?

[Youngat50]

36. Because Stand Your Ground doesn't allow for that.

Stand Your Ground allows for use of deadly force if you feel your life is immediately threatened and you cannot escape that. It does not allow for beating someone up because they are following you and you don't like it.

You can call 911 and report that someone is following you, which I really don't understand Martin not doing if he was so afraid. He should have gotten off the phone with his girlfriend and called 911 if he felt he was threatened.

Why do you think he did not do that if he was so afraid?

[Quixote1818]

46. So you would not be scared to death by some big guy coming after you at night if you were 17?

Tell the truth now.

I guess you think this guy should be able to shoot too?

Zimmerman could start something but needed a gun to finish it and you know it.

[lunatica]

38. What makes you think she didn't say something?

From the beginning the police treated the incident as if it never happened. And if he said anything about fighting back what is that supposed to mean? That's he's guilty of causing his own death?

You seem to be a Zimmerman apologist.

[cr8tvlde]

58. This is uninformed just plain stupid jibberish

There was no crime in the minds' of the officers or the town, for that matter. How do you expect a black teenage girl to march into the Sanford Police Department when the SA and the PD said there was no crime. It took 3 weeks and black fnational leaders...and you want to lay blame on this child?

Terrified, would be more like it. Slandered in the PD then in the Media then "targetted" by some of the RW nuts some of whom post on here, of all places? This goes beyond blaming the victim...complete BS.

And besides, how do you know she did not try? No one wanted to hear what she had to say so and after it hit the Big Time and became a Global Fracas between races, I'm sure she was advised by counsel. Even little black girls don't run to the police against the advice of counsel.

Glad you're not my attorney.

[JDPriestly]

66. I suspect that she did not come forward because she was 16 years old

and her parents did not want her to have a boyfriend yet.

But I could be entirely wrong. She may not have known that Trayvon had died.

[shimonitanegi]

13. right

There was no reason for Trayvon to follow or pursue Zimmerman in the first place.
Zimmerman was the one who had a huge issue with black kids and thus said "those assholes, they always get away", "fucking punks". Zimmerman wanted to take matters into his own hands this time because Burgess had gotten away before. In addition to that, Zimmerman was the one who had a loaded gun and violent arrest records. Martin had no deadly weapons and arrest record. A guy in anger and frustration with a violent history and a loaded gun would most likely be an aggressor.

[Youngat50]

41. He had such a huge issue with black kids...

...that he mentored two of them even when funds for expenses for that mentoring were no longer available. And he had such an issue with black people that he protested the unfair treatment of a homeless black man by police.

There is no such thing as "well...he was against blacks this time, but not that time." He didn't have a huge issue with black kids. He had a huge issue with criminals committing crimes in his neighborhood and against his friends and neighbors. If the majority of those caught robbing and casing his community were black, that doesn't show that he had a problem with blacks. It shows that there was a problem with crime in his neighborhood and the majority of the perpetrators were black.

You do realize that George Zimmerman had no control over the skin color of the people who chose to commit crimes in his neighborhood, don't you?

As to his statement of "...they always get away", it is my opinion that he clearly meant those who had robbed and seek to rob homes within his community. There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that he meant only black people.

And thank you for bringing up Burgess. That's a classic example of why people within a community do just as Zimmerman did. Members of communities that are being terrorized by crimes learn quickly that the police often can't get there fast enough to catch the criminal. Public assistance can make a difference, and that includes following the suspect so as to let the police know their location so they don't get away.

Zimmerman did not have a violent arrest record. The judge at the bond hearing himself stated that those items on his record were minor and irrelevant to this case. He was arrested one time, and the charges were dropped. He and his ex-girlfriend both took restraining orders out on each other. That's it. If he had a violent arrest record, he would not have been granted a conceal carry permit.

[bupkus]

14. This entire episode was instigated by one person

George Zimmerman.

One person is dead as a direct result of George Zimmerman's actions.

Trayvon Martin.

George Zimmerman is guilty.

Case closed.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Morally of course. Legally is TBD and there is a lot of fuzz on it.

[flvegan]

20. Hot damn, thanks for coming forward.

Since obviously you were there and saw the whole thing. "Case closed" could never be based on outrage-driven opinion. No way, no sir.

[bupkus]

39. Case closed is based on a grown man armed with a 9 mm pistol

Pursuing a teenager on his way home from a convenience store ultimately ending in the teenager's death by a 9 mm shell in his chest. For coming home from a convenience store. Solely due to the fact that Zimmerman profiled him, using racial slurs and deciding to take the law into his own hands.

Zimmerman's racial profiling and decision to pursue a kid who had every right to be where he was without being hunted by some armed goon isn't outrage driven, it's knowing simple right from wrong. Something this country seems to have forgotten.

ALEC and the NRA pushed for the "stand your ground" laws that led in large part to this and other outrageous uses of force where the only witness left to murder is the guy who had a concealed weapon against an unarmed victim. It's nice to see so many supposedly "progressive" Americans such as yourself standing shoulder to shoulder with ALEC, the NRA and armed racist goons like George Zimmerman.

[Skip Intro]

19. We don't know if that is right, or if what Zimmerman says,

which is that Martin came after him, is right.

There are indications that either scenario is correct.

[Fumesucker]

22. Which of Zimmerman's several versions are we supposed to believe?

Zimmerman would be a lot easier to believe if he could stick to a consistent story, something he has not managed to do.

[Skip Intro]

23. I was only aware of one. Has he contradicted himself on what happened?

If so, I missed it. Maybe you could help me out with that.

[Quixote1818]

24. This goes into some detail

http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-circled-car-frightened-him-details

[Lint Head]

32. Let's see. One had a gun and the other had Skittles. Wonder who was the intimidater.

The bullet let Trayvon down.

[LiberalFighter]

40. Why of course the one with Skittles

Don't you know you can shoot them out of your mouth and they can put an eye out?

[Taverner]

48. Yes - it's not against the law to run from another citizen