So, what are your plans since the glorious revolution is not coming?

[nobodyspecial]

If the crash in 2008 didn't send U.S. into a tailspin, I don't think anything will. OWS appears to be a bust. It made a point initially, but seems to have lost steam. You have the hardcore supporters, but I don't see many joining now and the average voter seems to have tired of the spectacle.

For example, Chicago was practically a ghost town yesterday as anyone who lives or works here stayed away. You had a group of protesters marching through the city aimlessly for about five hours playing cat and mouse with cops. Really not sure what that accomplished. And I hope the cops stick to the plan not to let this escalate into a mob scene.

What's Plan B? Attack if you will, but I definitely agree that change is needed. I'm just not seeing the present course working.

[randome]

1. My biggest fear...

...is that those who thought they could bring about some sort of Utopian society will become so disillusioned and bitter that over the years they will become the next generation of Conservatives.

Plan B? Work like hell to elect true Progressives.

I think we will get more help from Obama in his second term.

[MADem]

2. I like your Plan B. We need more Wellstones.

We also need real campaign finance reform. Not sure how to make that happen--it's been tried, but the foxes are watching the henhouse in DC...

I agree with you about Obama in his second term--it's "Legacy Time" at that stage of the game.

[nobodyspecial]

4. Campaign finance reform is key

Corporations are NOT people and elections should not be bought by the person who can amass the most money.

[protect our future]

3. It's time to turn our attention to November.

[leeroysphitz]

5. Why? Is there a progressive running? n/t

[nobodyspecial]

6. Yes, because we all know letting Romney in

will make everything better.

[MineralMan]

16. Uh, there are a bunch of progressives running.

In my Congressional District, it's Betty McCollum. My state house member and senator are both progressives. All across the country, there are progressive candidates seeking state and federal legislative office.

Did you think there was only one race in November?

Think again, and then help turn out a record number of Democrats to come to the polls and elect these progressives. Please.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

68. Added to that we have a progressive President as well

So even if there were only one race in November, the assertion that there are no progressives running would be a monumental fail

[MineralMan]

69. I deliberately omitted President Obama, because

there is a large number of DUers who maintain that Obama is not a progressive at all, and they would have objected to that statement. They cannot refute the statement that there are many progressives running for legislative offices, though, which is more than reason enough to encourage a large turnout in this election. That large turnout will also assure President Obama of re-election.

[MadHound]

7. You assume a lot,

There was little warning that the French revolution was going to break out, but indeed it did, suddenly and violently. The same with other revolts throughout history. You cannot predict them by how many people are out in the streets protesting, but rather how much oppression they are suffering under.

Frankly, I don't think that we're at that breaking point yet, but we're getting there. My guess, sometime in the next thirty years.

[TBF]

8. How old are you?

The answer to your question is - conditions will dictate. But that is way out of your ballpark, so please continue to focus on the campaign and leave the red-baiting to the conservatives.

[nobodyspecial]

10. Sorry that I don't fit your stereotype

but I am not young, stupid or naive. If anything, those who think the masses -- zombified by trash TV, a dumbed-down education system and loaded up on psychoactive drugs -- will suddenly rise up in violent revolt are the ones who are acting young and naive. If it didn't happen when conditions were at their worst, it ain't happening. And I'm not red baiting. Did not mention communism and don't think most here support that.

But thanks for insulting me rather than addressing the question I posed.

[jwirr]

21. Most of the revolutions in history did not have "masses" they were often a well organized minority

who started it and were joined later by those who had their own agenda. That includes the American revolution, the French revolution, the communist revolution and many others. The whole population does not suddenly decide it is time to stand up. Someone stands up and others follow.

[randome]

22. Perhaps so. But OWS is not well organized.

Leaving decisions up to everybody means little in the way of decision-making gets done.

[jwirr]

26. I don't think the leaders of the other groups I mentioned were organized in the way you mean either.

[randome]

27. Maybe not.

But the examples you mentioned were all armed revolutions. Raising armies or militias to physically fight against the ruling system.

OWS is not that, either.

[jwirr]

29. Well I am actually glad OWS is not that.

[randome]

30. Me, too.

[TBF]

31. Conditions are nowhere near that -

and you are grasping at straws here.

I don't know if you are a young campaigner or simply here to bash Occupy, but nothing you are saying about revolution is at all on target. Your red-baiting is clear from your "glorious revolution" phrase. Weak.

[nobodyspecial]

36. Probably a bad choice of words, but used more for shock value

but it does seem to go with the reverent tones and narrative that is often seen here. I frequently see talk of violence, cheering for societal collapse and idealized talk of ending capitalism here. I see that as unrealistic and off target -- and I am entitled to voice that opinion, even here.

I am neither young or here to bash Occupy. I have said repeatedly in this thread and other places here that I think change is necessary, people are getting screwed and the current system is unsustainable. But, even a whiff of criticism of Occupy's strategy brings personal attacks, accusations and a huge over-reaction. It appears to be all-out peer pressure to get people from stop posting even anything remotely critical of Occupy. Attack the poster, but refuse to respond with anything of substance.

I commute daily to Chicago. The people who I talk to daily didn't have a clue about what was going on this week. All they saw was their commute screwed up and a bunch of out-of-towners messing up their daily activities. Yesterday's march seemed to wander aimlessly for hours on end. What did that accomplish?

I am serious about what's next. But, I guess I won't find any answers here.

[randome]

39. This is why the Occupy Underground forum was created.

OWS is one of those subjects about which some people cannot discuss dispassionately.

[nobodyspecial]

42. Yeah, so I gather.

All I've gotten is personal attacks and veiled threats of termination.

Seriously, they win. I won't post anything that questions Occupy at all. I've invested way too much of my time on this stupidity. Let's have a happy dance. Occupy has won yet again.

[randome]

45. My advice: No. Don't give in.

But it's like trying to convince someone their religion is 'wrong'. For the true believers, it can't be done.

So it's best to simply point out logical fallacies from time to time and let it go at that.

That's not to say there aren't other just as interesting 'battles' to be fought in the DU arena!

[TBF]

44. I really don't know what you want us to say -

I definitely want to see us evolve past capitalism to socialism. I'm to the point where I'd even settle for a Scandinavian type economy. It would be a step in the right direction.

I won't criticize Occupy other than to say it's what you would expect from a bourgeoisie movement. Our unions are decimated and we are not going to have current union involvement on a large scale during an election year. Right now in the interest of protecting what little rights women and minorities have, and to keep things from getting far worse, we are working on electing Obama.

Some would take other approaches but that's how I feel about it right now.

Your anecdotal evidence aside, Occupy has actually been very effective in raising awareness. How do we know this? We know the 1% are paying attention just by noting how many police we have turn out at any activity, and we note their violent response to non-violent protest. A group that is doing "nothing" does not get that attention. Occupy is most definitely a threat to the status-quo.

[marmar]

9. Mon dieu......

[xchrom]

12. Indeed. That was better than Valium. Nt

[KansDem]

11. COSTA RICA!!!

http://www.internations.org/costa-rica-expats/americans?utm_source=google_adwords&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=+americans_+moving_+costa_+rica&utm_content=_Americans&utm_campaign=Country_CR_Costa_Rica

--Beautiful weather and scenery
--Socialized health care and education.
--No "military industrial complex"
--Retirement pensions and Social Security will go a lot further there

What's it cost to live in Costa Rica?

Brother, if I had a dime for every time someone asked that question, I could retire! Oh! That's right, I AM retired... Anyway, I will give you the short and long answers. The short answer is &quot Almost) whatever you want to pay". The long answer is a bit more involved.

The reason the short answer is really correct is that you can spend just about as much or as little as you want to live in Costa Rica. It really depends on two things: What do you want and what you need, and they ARE different. I know people here who live wonderful lives in Costa Rica on as little as $1000 per month and they are happy. They may live away from San José and in small accommodations eschewing cable TV, cultural activities, shopping, and other amenities, but they are happy.

I also know people who spend $4,000 per month (and more) and THEY are happy!

You can do either... now whether you want to or are able to is a different story. I am not going to go into every little thing you can buy here. Items like the cost to own a car, cost of utilities, or cost of education are covered elsewhere in this site.

If I were to give you and average spending for North Americans moving here, I would say the range is between $1,500 to $2,500 per month. This is what I THINK an average middle class family (maybe 1-2 kids) from the US could spend and view their lifestyle as comfortable. No kids? Less of course. My sister lives here (single) and spends about $1,300.00 per month with Internet, cable etc, small 3 BR 2 bath home. Not a lot of luxuries, but for her, it is enough.

Here are just some basics on housing, food, and a few other items as they often represent the lion's share of monthly expenses for many folks. Read on!

--more--
http://www.therealcostarica.com/living_in_costa_rica/cost_of_living_costarica.html
(This may be from 2007, so prices may have gone up a little)

The only drawback is (IIRC) Catholicism is written into CR's Constitution as the "official religion."

[spanone]

13. what glorious revolution?

[slackmaster]

14. I plan to order a pizza

To be delivered. And I'll give the delivery driver a big tip.

[randome]

25. Plan 'C' for Chinese!

[nobodyspecial]

19. Hey, thanks for the personal attack

Not surprising how many are attacking me rather than addressing the OP. I guess I'm supposed to be frightened and intimidated from posting my opinions because the pack attacks me. Sorry, not working.

Where did I say I wanted to stop people from rising? Why is Occupy the only way? I'm just not seeing it being effective. What could work better?

[TBF]

32. Believe me - there is no pack here.

It is a rare occasion when I am agreeing with slackmaster and some of the others in this thread, which can only indicate someone is pretty darned obvious in their intentions.

[randome]

34. slackmaster wants to order pizza.

Who could argue with that?

[TBF]

35. Personally I like pepperoni.

But that's up to admin - MIR only deals with newbies.

[nobodyspecial]

40. You have no idea who I am

and I have no agenda.

But, get me tombstoned. At this point, I really don't care.

[TBF]

50. No threats intended -

veiled or otherwise. I was simply pointing out Admin reviews longer term posters, in case there was any confusion.


If you are really interested in Occupy you might want to spend some time reading about what they are doing in their group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1252

I am in a red state and the Occupy actions here have been pretty small (maybe more active in Austin), and I really haven't been involved.

I do support the effort though - as I said they are getting to the status quo and that is progress in my view.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. The glorious revolution was a theocratic coup.

Perhaps you meant some other revolution?

[coalition_unwilling]

53. Well, the first 'Glorious Revolution' (1688) represented a victory

for democracy over autocracy, as the British Parliament removed the Stuarts from the British monarchy and installed William and Mary (of Orange) on the throne by an Act of Parliament! I'd go so far as to call this bloodless revolution almost anti-theocratic (in the sense that it consolidated Protestantism once and for all as the official religion of Great Britain and stomped out any Roman Catholic, i.e., Stuart, pretensions to the throne).

[HiPointDem]

67. Why is rule by Protestant less theocratic than rule by Catholic?

[coalition_unwilling]

70. There's no Pope at the center of Protestantism sending

out imperial dictates to his minions

Seriously, though, the British Glorious Revolution was not 'theocratic' in any real sense. If anything, it was a secular revolution that cemented parliamentary hegemony over the monarchy and aristocracy once and for all. I apologize if I failed to make that clear in my original response.

[HiPointDem]

71. There was a king who was head of the state church and persecuted dissenters. Theocratic enough.

[coalition_unwilling]

75. Yes, I take your point. People took their religion deadly

seriously back then. Thank God (npi) for the Enlightenment and subsequent developments

[DefenseLawyer]

18. You should go thank the cops for keeping the rabble in line.

That seems to be where you are coming from.

[nobodyspecial]

20. That is your projection

I said no such thing. I guess if I support the cause but not the tactics, I'm the enemy.

[lunatica]

23. The revolution is happening

But you don't hear about it form the media. Thus it will take a little longer since it's the impossible. Peaceful revolutions like OWS take a little longer.

Have faith. We are no different than people all around the world starting their revolutions. We're probably still too well off in spite of not being well off.

[cali]

24. what is this revolution?

[obliviously]

28. Looks like porn and basements for awhile.

Heavy sigh!

[Chan790]

33. Passive Class Warfare.

Let's make being wealthy so unpleasant that the wealthy choose to not be wealthy. No revolution, no need for actual violence...just build an eventually-critical mass of people who refuse to work for them or do business with them on any equitable level, actively discriminate against them, never pass up an opportunity to do something purely because it'll make their lives suck a bit more. Let them suffer our active contempt. Sow evil unto them in our good deeds.

If I had a piece of land and it was next to Mitt Romney's piece of land and he wanted a 4' easement...I'd demand $1B and I'd tell him upfront that I was spending most of the money to destroy the things he loves in life. If I found David Koch's wallet in the street, I'd burn it rather than return it. If I was selling a product, I'd sell them for a loss before I'd ever sell one to Eric Cantor. Get in front of Rush Limbaugh's car on a single-lane no-passing-road in which runs in front of the police station...and drive as slow as legally-possible. If I had a dog, it would never crap anywhere but the best front lawns in gated communities. Actively conspire to make sure that nobody will mow Sheldon Adelson's lawn for any sum of money. Open a homeless shelter directly across the street from their children's prissy little private schools and halfway houses near their homes. Rent office space in their buildings on long-term leases then lend-use to methadone clinics, life-after-prison and social-welfare organizations thus causing the halls of their buildings to be filled with the results of their evil while driving down property values.

The flip side of this is removal of self from their system. Buy and source local; refuse to support large agribusiness, big-box retail or put money into their pockets. Refuse to work for them. Refuse to live in their developments. Refuse to support their banks, their financial planning, their long-cons (like private for-profit health insurance) or their for-profit "public-interest" ventures. Pay attention to what your dollars and labor are supporting. Refuse, resist, disrupt, segregate yourself from their scheme.

I'd do anything I could to make them suffer. Eventually, they'll suffer enough to relent.

[nobodyspecial]

37. I don't think you defeat evil by becoming evil.

And I really don't see any viability to this plan. There are always some desperate or selfish enough to cross the picket line. They are not going to relent just because people are being mean to them. They could give a shit.

But, thanks for posting an actual strategy.

[cali]

38. that's a baby fantasy.

[socialist_n_TN]

41. There was a revolution scheduled and I missed it?.........

DAMN! I'll have to recall my delegate to the Bolshevik National Committee. I HATE not being informed.

Now that I've got MY snark out of the way, I'll address you're OP. Revolutions are NOT "scheduled". Revolutions HAPPEN from the bottom up. There's are stages to a revolution, starting with a pre-revolutionary situation, evolving into a revolutionary situation, then USUALLY a dual power situation, evolving into a revolution. We are NOT in a dual power situation OR even a revolutionary situation. Hell, we're not in a PRE-revolutionary situation (like Greece). YET! We are however and IMO, in a pre pre-revolutionary situation which will inevitably evolve into a pre-revolutionary situation if things keep going the way they are. IOW, if the capitalists keep pushing us into neo-feudalism. I have no doubt that the ruling classes won't stop pushing. Ergo, eventually it will evolve into a revolution. Whether successful or not will depend on the organizing, educating, and agitating that we do RIGHT NOW!

One last thing as to timing. Lenin once said something along the lines of sometimes years go by and nothing much happens and then at times years go by in months. By that I take it to mean that when revolutionary events occur, they occur relatively quickly. Watch for it.

[TBF]

46. Exactly -

about the only thing many of us can do is be ready. And things are moving much faster than they were even five years ago.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. "And things are moving much faster than they were even five years ago.".........

Ain't that the truth.

People need to read a little more history about revolutionary situations. There's NEVER been a revolution that sprang up full blown like Athena from the head of Zeus. There was always prepartion involved and repression of that preparation. We're definitely in the prep stages now, but they are important because without them when events snowball, we're screwed. If not prepared, you get either a Bonapartist strong man or fascism. Or both.

And I DO expect it to move even faster in the future.

[nobodyspecial]

43. OK, you win

I won't post anything that questions Occupy at all. I've invested way too much of my time on this stupidity. Let's have a happy dance. Occupy has won another victory.

[socialist_n_TN]

56. I don't think that anybody is asking for that at all............

I agree with TBF upthread in her critique of Occupy as a bourgeoisie left populist movement. That's a critique and nobody seems to mind because the critique is based on OUR OPINIONS on what will make the movement stronger, NOT just tearing it down. See? It's the difference between constructive criticism and destructive. Your OP snarkily implied that because the "revolution" hasn't happened in 8 months (since Sep. '11), that we might as well give it up.

Occupy is CERTAINLY NOT revolutionary. Some elements might be revolutionary (myself for example) and some Occupy groups might be more militant than others (Occupy Oakland comes to mind), but the movement as a whole is NOT revolutionary. It IS however, the only basis we have for a needed revolution at this time because it's the ONLY coalition type of group that's actually attempting to challenge the system itself. NOT just disparate parts of the system, but the whole fucking enchilada. THAT'S why I'm working to influence it in the direction I want it to go rather than throwing up my hands about what I think is wrong with it and giving up.

So maybe instead of sniping at people, come up with some suggestions to make it better. Maybe even check it out a little bit. Occupy IS morphing and it's changing because of the people who are involved in it. IF you were involved, you might be able to influence changes in Occupy.

[JNelson6563]

47. I will keep doing what I've been doing.

Working to get progressives elected, buying as local as possible while, at the same time, not buying things I do not need.

Julie

[randome]

49. Come on.

You need to treat yourself once in a while!

[JNelson6563]

61. Oh, you know, maybe once in a while.

Easy to not feel too deprived here though.

My neck of the woods:



Edited to add: Thanks for your thoughtful post, btw. It was nice of you.

Had meant to hit "preview" to see if pic worked but hit "post" before I could finish the text.

[coalition_unwilling]

48. Electing Romney would send the US into a tailspin (think a U3

unemployment rate of 25-30% and U6 of 35-40%).

OWS is a "bust"????? WTF???? Martin Luther King did not achieve racial equality in 7 months and the U.S. Civil War lasted 5 years.

It's pretty clear you support "the cops," even though they have revealed themselves over and over again as class traitors to the working class and as paid agents\mercenaries of the ruling class.

1% of the population controls 40% of the wealth and 10% of the population controls 80% of the wealth. What are you doing in your life to change that???? It's perfectly acceptable if you are doing nothing, but I think you need to be honest with us.

[bvar22]

51. You should read more History.

No Revolutions or Reform Movements have ever progressed in a linear fashion.
Movements progress in waves
and they are ALL connected.
OWS moved the ball,
and are STILL moving the ball.
They were primarily responsible from moving the President of the United States from an "Time to Eat Your Peas" Austerity President to a Economic Fairness Populist President, at least in campaign speeches.

The Movement is still very much alive.
The OWS encampments have served their very important purpose.

When the Working Class & The Poor realize we have MORE in common with each other
than we have in common with the 1% and their employees in Washington,
we can have our "change".

You can help,
or get out of the way.




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[coalition_unwilling]

55. Bravo! Hear, hear! - n/t

[rucky]

52. I think I found a way to watch everything that airs on Bravo

in under 2 hours per day.

It requires some 7th-level TiVo programming skills, but it's good to have a fall-back skill.

[wendylaroux]

54. I was onboard at the beginning

after many months on occ livestream,ustream,not all,but alot of the people chatting in there have gotten creepy. Violent,racist and ron paul lovers galore. That did it for me. No more.-But I do think this movement did wake up alot of people to some bad things going on in this country,and that is awesome.

[socialist_n_TN]

60. It's ironic, but my experience with the local Occupy movement..........

has been EXACTLY the opposite. When I visited a couple of times last Fall, I thought the same about the Paulbots. I was NOT impressed. However, my last experience (May Day) showed a true left populist, even anti-capitalist group. It was small of course, but it was enthusiastic.

I think it's because various areas are different, but it's also because Occupy is a growing and ever changing movement based on the people involved. That's why if you feel like the movement needs something, it's best to get involved as much as you can.

[wendylaroux]

62. My exposure to occupy is very limited

as I am mostly home bound. I loved chatting with the people on livestream,they seemed to be wonderful people, and want the best for this country.But overtime the crazy's seemed to come in and take over,I couldn't stand it,so I left.I only wish the best for this movement. And I hope you are right about the left turn it may be taking!!

[RagAss]

58. Revolutions don't come when people are angry.....

Revolutions come when people see themselves as already dead.
Give it a few years.

[raouldukelives]

59. Probably what people do when they are beaten.

Worked in the 70's. Shake hands with the corporations, start investing in a 401k and spend the rest of your life knowing that your new existence is only devoted to the destruction of what you once believed so strongly in. Some people are willing to trade any sort of ethical or moral compass for a bit of security.

[Taverner]

63. Revolution? Hardly. Evolution, well it has moved a little faster.

It just has to outpace the banks, that's all.

And the bigger the bank, the slower the pace.

[bvar22]

64. Well Stated.

I may have to steal that.
Simple, and to the point.

"It just has to outpace the banks, that's all.
And the bigger the bank, the slower the pace."--- Taverner



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[Odin2005]

65. Your "concern" is noted.

You have a very cartoonish idea of what Social Revolution is.

[Zorra]

66. Another *Epic Third Way Fail*. Protesters swarm Chicago for NATO summit

thousands expected to march through Windy City

CHICAGO — Protesters gathering in Chicago for the NATO summit were gearing up for their largest demonstration Sunday, when thousands are expected to march from a downtown park to the lakeside convention center where President Barack Obama and dozens of other world leaders will meet.

Hours before the main demonstration was set to start, protesters were already gathering at Grant Park holding signs including one that read: “NATO, Go Home.” One protester walked with an American flag turned upside down.

A day earlier, several hundred demonstrators wound through the city’s streets for hours, testing police who used bicycles to barricade off streets and horseback officers to coax them in different directions. Increasingly tense clashes Saturday night between protesters and police resulted in 18 arrests, Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said.

Spain's 'indignants' have huge support: poll
(AFP) – 5 hours ago

MADRID — Spain's "indignant" protest movement against economic inequality and spending cuts continues to enjoy widespread support a year after it was launched, a poll published on Sunday showed.
----
Even more of those surveyed, 78 percent, said the "indignant" protesters "are right", compared to 81 percent who felt this way in June of last year.
----
The Metroscopia poll was carried out on May 16-17, just after the protesters wrapped up four days of demonstrations in 80 cities and towns across the country on May 15 to mark the birth of their Internet-fueled movement a year ago.

Police estimate about 30,000 people took part in the first protest on May 12 in Madrid. In Barcelona, Spain's second city, police estimate the turnout on the first night was 45,000 people.

Provincial: a : a person of local or restricted interests or outlook

Blockupy Frankfurt: Thousands wrap up four-day protests (VIDEO, PHOTOS)
Published: 19 May, 2012, 20:59

At least 20,000 Occupy movement demonstrators have gathered in Frankfurt on the fourth day of mass anti-capitalist protests against the current banking system and austerity measures.

“We are in solidarity with the people of Greece and other European countries who are already gravely suffering from cuts across the board which threaten their very existence,'' organizer spokesman Roland Seuss said.

Saturday's march is the final demonstration in a four-day-long “Blockupy” protest. It passed off peacefully with demonstrators marching through the center of the city holding anti-capitalist banners.

On Friday, however, police detained some 400 protesters from the Blockupy movement after they erected barricades and staged sit-ins.

Russian Funds Flee as Anti-Putin Activists Occupy Moscow

May 17 (Bloomberg) -- Investors are fleeing Russia as demonstrators against President Vladimir Putin dig in, exacerbating the impact of Europe's debt crisis on the country's markets, money managers from Frankfurt to Moscow said.

Activists who clashed with police before Putin's May 7 inauguration are protesting non-stop in Moscow, using the Occupy Wall Street movement's tactics. As the benchmark RTS equity index entered a bear market, Russia-focused equity funds recorded $251 million of outflows in the seven days to May 9, the most this year, while China lost $127 million, India $148 million and Brazil $167 million, EPFR Global data show.

Should we believe what you tell us, or what we see?

Seein' is believin'.

Hint: Even Third Way propaganda needs to have at least some reasonable element of truth/fact in order for even suckers to believe it.

[TheKentuckian]

72. We change or slip into fascism for as long as the Earth can support it until the resources aren't

there and we see massive die off and plunge into darkness for as many generations as the eye can see and in all probability this will be the highwater mark of our race because there will be no "low hanging fruit" resource wise and our race ends where it began on this little dot in the corner suburbs of an unremarkable galaxy trapped like rats incapable of growing beyond rats on a sinking ship.

If we go on like this the big fail and the beginning of the end is at hand. We will have stepped to the edge of the beginnings of our promise and walked away preferring death and regression.

Our time is short-30, 50, or a hundred years we will have dug our hole so deep that the odds of climbing out will be beyond minimal.

What I find interesting is that the status quo and the establishment parties are seen on an infinite time line but any other effort must work as quick as crazy glue sets or they have failed.

The usual refrain of "elect more progressives and liberals" is desirable and laudable but our progress through our present system is making even that goal of working within the system we have is becoming a pipe dream in both possibility and impact if an advance is made.

The game board is increasingly to the advantage of not just the establishment which is deadly enough to the broad prosperity of us "small people" but worse to powerful regressive forces.

We need whatever pressure that can be mounted from outside the establishment and push for and accept any gains that can be consolidated within it while continuously demanding more.

We need more pressure and more types of pressure from outside of the current decision making process, Occupy is not enough. The establishment considers Occupy a hindrance to be eradicated but not a threat. Regressives are motivated by fear and there is little cause for fear, not in a direct sense. They want the populace to be wedged from the movement and resent it following the "don't start nothing won't be nothing" principle.

I support Occupy to the hilt because for whatever faults they have with tactics and structure (and I agree they are there though probably for very different reasons than you) because they have more effectively framed the problems in months than anyone else has over decades and apparently aren't solely focused on some way to prop up the status quo with band-aids, spit, duct tape, and inflating the next bubble for fake growth and the short term illusion of increasing prosperity.

Honestly, I think the focus on the 99% is misplaced though it is a good marketing hook because revolutionary movement be they peaceful or martial can't depend on any such numbers or even a majority because you always have about a third who are willfully compliant slaves to the machine Tory types and you have another third that is between sympathetic and hopeful for the status quo thinking that with a little tinkering that all will be well as it was in some short and exceptional period in the past along with those who accept whatever is.

Radicalizing the 15% that are naturally inclined seems more fundamental and growing to the about 35% that is without much else to lose or can be made to see the coming deadend would be more in line with what I see as natural evolution to build a movement that won't go away and cannot easily be killed.

I also believe that Occupy just in nature cannot be the extreme, there needs to be more envelope pushing groups of a less savory disposition and more radical nature to allow a group like Occupy to be more palatable for the establishment to work with and the vast middle section of the populace to coalesce around and accept.

Sure Occupy has structural concerns and tactics that cannot appeal to most. It is an organization of humans and humans in opposition (out of frustration with real and willful, predatory structural defects that are design to prey on the vast majority be it 80% or 99%) and mass messaging isn't an easy thing to do when the far right controls mass media be it directly like Faux or more subtly in the "liberal media" where by a mix of cuckolding into this state of false neutrality of playing referee rather than fact finding, by acquisition of key holdings, by changing laws, by striping away public funding, by erasing the concept of news as a public service, and importantly defunding actual reporting and investigation in favor of providing essentially entertainment have set up an environment that about the only messages that can appeal to a majority are fear, tax cuts, stroking vanities, and feedback loops on the beltway "common wisdom" which is a bunch of largely demonstrably disproven bullshit about tax cuts, exceptionalism, greed, and fears to distract from pilfering and suicidal avarice.

I've yet to hear a possible, much less a plausible message or tactics that would appeal to the majority and especially the vast majority to affect a fundamental paradigm shift which is substantially different from efforts for inclusion of excepted persons to the existing system.
Both the claim and the critique are nonsensical because it isn't possible at this stage in human development.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. The bosses don't make revolutions. America is the boss nation and the revolution has begun.

We have painted ourselves into a small corner exploiting the rest of the world to provide us with luxury. Now we are dependent on the colonies to continue to supply us. They've grown weary of doing so while going hungry and want their piece of the pie.

Now we devote a very large portion of our wealth vainly trying to keep them in line fighting unwinnable wars.

Time to move on and become just another 2nd rate power and trying getting along with the rest of the world instead of bullying it.

[Starry Messenger]

74. Jesse Jackson is not amused with your sh1t.

One minute ago on Twitter.

[FarCenter]

76. The United States is the waning, dominant empire of the post WW I and II epoch

At the end of the French Revolution, the Congress of Vienna was where the new order was established, sort of like the founding of the UN at San Francisco or the new economic order at Bretton Woods, NH. The British Empire was the dominant sea power and global empire of the post Napoleonic world.

Marx and Engel lived and worked in London. Hitler, Trotsky, Lenin, Tito and Stalin were all in Austria during 1913/14.

There were never any revolutions in either the United Kingdom nor in Austria Hungary.

I don't expect any in the United States.

[Liberal_in_LA]

77. squirreling away savings? planting a garden? Preparing for the GOP overlords

to take over.

[Raine]

78. Face the reality that it's those in power verses all the rest of us

and taking care of myself and those people and things I care about first. To never be under the illusion that they will ever do a damn thing for anyone else but their buddies.

[Blue_Tires]

79. Well what are YOUR plans, then? For the sake of curiosity...