Michigan Town Must Provide Equal Access to Atheists, Judge Rules!

[L. Coyote]

http://aattp.org/michigan-town-must-provide-equal-access-to-atheists-judge-rules/

After seeing a ‘Prayer Station’ inside the Warren City Hall in Michigan, atheist Douglas Marshall sought to set up a ‘Reason Station’ in the City Hall as well. He wanted people to have access to both religious and non-religious choices. Marshall filled out the application that was almost identical to the one sent in for the ‘Prayer Station.’ In a very hypocritical move the mayor denied the request saying the ‘Reason Station’ was “Too disruptive to the ‘Prayer Station’”

The Mayor, James Fout, then went on to compare atheists to the Ku Klux Klan. Of course, Marshall sued. ....

[WillyT]

1. K & R !!!

[snooper2]

2. LOL, get a load of this mayors mug...

[snort]

5. Wrought by an angry god.

[hifiguy]

7. That character looks like

The result of WKRP's Les Nessman fucking an ostrich.

[msanthrope]

14. That's not the bird I envision when I think of Les.....

http://m.

[hifiguy]

26. "The turkeys are hitting the ground like bags of wet cement...."

That is one of the two or three funniest few minutes in the history of television, along with Ed Ames' tomahawk throw on the Carson show and Mary dissolving into hysterics at the funeral of Chuckles the Clown on MTM. And they are still just as funny decades later.

[Roland99]

10. If that doesn't have 70s TV preacher written all over it....

[d_legendary1]

18. BEGONE SATAN!!!!

[CBGLuthier]

75. Man, I would hate to see the bandage Les would wear after that encounter

[RKP5637]

78. A DUH looking character if ever. n/t

[JHB]

82. Is it Wednesday yet?

[whatthehey]

3. Both "stations" will now be eliminated in very short order

Christians in these situations don't give a rat's ass about their stated purpose, but just want to preen in their special privilege. We know this because every time other religions or atheists sue to get in on the very-much act, all religious appurtenances are banned rather than Xians continuing the "good work" but sharing the privilege and publicity. Which is, of course, how it should be in the public arena in a pluralist state. Overreaching special pleading by Xians is far more potent a tool to stop religious favoritism than direct appeals.

[0rganism]

8. and the RWC's will complain (and campaign) that atheists are persecuting them

if the "Reason Station" were permitted, there's really not much they could do - they'd still have their precious "Prayer Station"
but if the "Prayer Station" is removed, then those dirty atheists are preventing Christians from praying

[happyslug]

12. All the city has to do is rename the station to "Prayer or other purpose" station

And then say it is a "Reason" station also. Since it would NOT be restricted to people of belief it would meet constitutional muster on the grounds it does not interfere with someone's beliefs (including the right NOT to believe in God) nor favor a set of beliefs over another (i.e. does not favor the belief in God over a belief that God does not exist).

Given that the Courts will accept such universal use of what most people will still call a pray room, calling it a "Pray Room" instead of a "Pray Room or other purpose Room" (or re-name it a general solitaire room) anything else is just a waste of tax payer's money. Thus the courts have upheld a "Moment of Silent meditation" as NOT being religious in nature for even atheists can meditate.

http://education.findlaw.com/student-rights/is-a-minute-of-silence-in-school-permissible-.html

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/472/38.html

Please note a "Moment of Silent Pray" was struck down by the US Supreme Court in 1981, but that statute expressly required pray. Subsequent cases have permitted laws that uses the term "mediation" or "reflection" on the grounds those words do NOT imply any religious act. Thus a "Pray, Reflection and Meditation room" would pass constitutional muster on the grounds the sole purpose of the room is to permit people to reflect in a manner they are comfortable with (i.e. pray, mediation etc).

Remember the First Amendment has two clauses, the first forbids establishment of a church by the Government, the second clause is the government will pass no laws hindering the practice of any religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Thus the court has to protect BOTH clauses. Thus the courts have accepted religious actions that can be construed as non religious both as a non establishment of religion AND as not interfering with religion. A "Pray, Reflection and Mediation" room would meet those requirements, thus all the city has to do is rename the room.

Side note: It is not reported if the room has any religious icons in it. If such icons exists, then the city has to permit any icon any one wants to put in that room. On the other hand if the room is just benches and a kneel pad, that should meet constitutional muster. If Religious Icons are permitted to be brought in, then any icon, idol or symbol has to be permitted in the room (provided such items are legal, you will NOT be permitted to bring in your marijuana pipe because you need it to reflect in the way you want to, such pipes and marijuana are illegal independent of religion).

Just a comment this was a waste of tax payer's money that the city could have avoided by just renaming the room.

[csziggy]

29. Why should the city provide any space for any non-municipal use?

At least in the building dedicated to municipal business, I think it is inappropriate to provide space for religious or atheist use. In most cities there are plenty of spaces where groups different beliefs and non-beliefs can set up a table and distribute their materials or pray together or do whatever they want. The lobby of the city hall is NOT an appropriate place for this.

Looking at the town square area on Google Street View, there is a lovely grass area across the street from the Civics Center that houses the City Hall and the Public Library. In my opinion that is a much better place for proselytizers to hawk their superstitions or for more rational people to rebut those beliefs. And it has much more visibility than the lobby location so it has advantages for those trying to influence belief systems.

[happyslug]

80. My point was the room could meet CONSTITUTIONAL MUSTER with a minor change....

That a room should be set aside for "meditation" is another topic. This thread is on the CONSTITUTIONALITY of a pray room in a municipal building. That the issue I was addressing. If it was decided such a room should in the municipal building is like saying should a play room for children be in such a building? Given the number of visitors such a building gets, a play room may be something people think should be they so that parents can drop off their children in the play room while they do what they have to do in the Municipal building. It is up to the people who are running that building to decide what rooms should be in the building and what should be in those rooms. Some people may think it should be nothing but offices. Other may think some restrooms should be in the building. A play room may be nice, even though other people think it will just give parents a place to dump their children and have the taxpayers pick up the bill.

My point was to address the constitutional issue, not the political decision to have such a room if it was constitutional. No one disputes the constitutional right of the municipality to have a play room in the same building, but the decision to have a play room is a political decision up to the people who control that building. The same with rest rooms, snack bars, computer access rooms etc. These decisions are NOT made in isolation. No one person decides who gets what room and for what purpose. These are all political decisions made by those people elected to make such political decisions. The same with a "Pray and Meditation" room, as long as it does NOT establish a religion nor interfere with the free exercise of religion such rooms are constitutional and that is all I was saying in my post. That those people elected to make decisions as to what happens in what room do not establish a religion nor interfere with the free exercise of religion, they can do with the rooms of that building as they see fit, provided the voters do not object to their decision in the next election.

[etherealtruth]

4. Ahhhh, my hometown

I wish to hell they would get rid of them both (the prayer and reason stations) .... but the religiously insane won't let that happen

[jwirr]

9. I find this interesting. Is your area a really Roman Catholic area? Prayer

stations are mainly associated with medieval Catholic churches. I did not know they even exist in religion anymore.

[etherealtruth]

19. Extremely RC and Maronite Catholic ... very much a democratic party stronghold, too

[jwirr]

20. Yes, many catholics are Democrats. They truly believe in what Pope

Francis is preaching today. Love your brothers as yourself.

[etherealtruth]

21. Though I left Catholocism and religion behind years ago, I credit the RC church ....

... (the RC Church of my youth) and my family with my very progressive values. My entire family is Catholic ; they are also strong Democrats and more than half ardent liberals

[hifiguy]

27. You ust have been raised in the John XXIII era.

My best friend in my early teen years (and for decades thereafter) was raised in an Irish Catholic Democratic family where Jack Kennedy was second only to Pope John.

[etherealtruth]

30. Definitely Irish Catholic

.... but John XXIII died the year after I was born

A portrait of JFK hung on a wall in our house

[blackspade]

6. Religious zealots have no shame.

[Roland99]

11. Curious, why the f*** is a "prayer station" even needed in a City Hall??

Praying for that DMV line to go quickly?

Praying that traffic ticket gets dismissed?


*sigh*

[Thor_MN]

13. Praying that no one finds out that you are

trying to get a marriage license with your underage first cousin.
retitling your car because of that hit and run on that homeless person.
no one finds out about the money you snuck to planning board before your building plan is approved

You know, basic Xtian values things....

[seveneyes]

15. Meanwhile agnostics are the sane ones once again

Shit stirring religionists and atheists keep costing working people more tax dollars.

[Humanist_Activist]

16. In what way is this unreasonable or shit stirring on the atheist's part?

And how are agnostics more sane?

[seveneyes]

17. Agnostics have an open mind

Atheists and religious portend to know a higher being exists or doesn't. Arrogant know-it-all mentality that wastes tax funded services and time.

[AndreaCG]

22. I'm agnostic and I disagree with your overbearing characterization

Indeed that kind of self righteous attitude toward those with different beliefs does agnostics no favors. Some see us as wishy washy. Who cares? I like the idea up thread of one station where you can pray or meditate or just sit in peace but separate ones are fine too.

[DavidDvorkin]

23. Look up "strong atheism" vs. "weak atheism".

[hifiguy]

28. I am a strong atheist - secular, scientific and humanistic.

I subscribe to the basic rule of formal debate: Anyone asserting a proposition is true has the burden of providing logical reasons and extrinsic evidence in support of the proposition.

As Carl Sagan (one ot the members of my very short list of personal heroes, along with Einstein, RFK, Paul Wellstone, Gandhi and Nelson Mandela) put it, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

Also from Sagan, my favorite quote, period: I'd rather KNOW than BELIEVE.

That said, I don't get on my high horse unless someone tries to push their religion on me, particularly if they continue to do so after my always polite initial statement of disinterest. Then all bets are off. I have a long fuse but a large charge. And I don't care much what others believe until it impinges on the freedom of other human beings, at which point I care alot and wil start yelling about it.

And the latest advances is cosmology and quantum physics have established that no known physical law says that the universe cannot have originated out of nothing. Innate instability of the quantum foam and all that.

[Humanist_Activist]

32. You seem rather ignorant of what atheists believe, why not educate yourself before you embarrass...

yourself further.

[seveneyes]

35. atheists believe they know something they don't know is a fact

Same for religionists. You can't explain that which one does not know to be true.

[beam me up scottie]

36. There are different kinds of atheism.

If you stopped telling us what we believe you might actually learn something.

[seveneyes]

37. I know not what an athiest believes

It's only that "they" can not yet prove there is no higher being yet "they" insist it does not exist.

No better than the bangers that have all the answers in their own "god".

[beam me up scottie]

38. That is true, you obviously know nothing about atheism.

Yet you wallow in your ignorance and keep posting stereotypes. That makes you the intolerant "banger" type and no different than the bigots who do the same thing on conservapedia.

[seveneyes]

39. You can't stereotype a believer

Show me an atheist that allows for an undiscovered greater being and I'll show you an agnostic.

[beam me up scottie]

41. What do I believe?

[seveneyes]

42. You tell me

Is there a possibility a being greater than humankind exists? Could they have created humankind?

[beam me up scottie]

44. From about atheism :

An atheist is anyone who doesn't happen to believe in any gods, no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist. This is a very simple concept, but it's also widely misunderstood. For that reason, there are a variety of ways to state this. Atheism is: the lack of belief in gods, the absence of belief in gods, disbelief in gods, not believing in gods.

[seveneyes]

45. "not believing in gods"

Is the same as believing there are no gods.

There is a reason not everyone can become logical scientists.

[beam me up scottie]

46. LMAO! "not everyone can become logical scientists"

The logical response from a scientist upon discovering that they're wrong would be "I was wrong".

Not "I don't care about facts or logic, I'm still right."

[seveneyes]

47. I'll take the Denver Boot for 1000

[beam me up scottie]

48. Don't quit your day job.

There are too many fundamentalists masquerading as scientists as it is.

Leave the anti-atheist bigotry to the experts.

[seveneyes]

49. If you are calling me a fundamentalist

You could not be more wrong. You are not calling me a fundamentalist are you? Because if you are you are fucking out of line and one yourself.

[beam me up scottie]

51. You're sure acting like one.

They love to spout anti-atheist propaganda too.

[seveneyes]

52. The fact remains, athiest and religionists are belivers in unproven imagination

SOP requires me to be polite to believers.

[beam me up scottie]

53. Calling me a believer when I told you I'm not is bigoted.

So you're intolerant and a fundamentalist thinker.

Since you're so into facts I thought I'd give you a freebie.

You're welcome.

[seveneyes]

54. You either believe there is a god or you believe there is not a god

Which do you believe? I believe all the facts are not in to conclude either.

Perhaps you are an unwilling agnostic. I understand if you can't tell the truth you have no proof of.

[beam me up scottie]

55. I am an agnostic atheist.

I understand that some people are incapable of comprehending more than one definition of atheism.

It's probably not your fault, some folks just aren't it-getters.

[seveneyes]

56. At least you finally admit you are an agnostic

Good enough for me. Logic can now be redeemed.

[beam me up scottie]

57. Now you're having difficulties with reading comprehension.

I understand and I'm sorry that something many of us take for granted is out of reach for others.

You've come to the right place, though. DUers can be very patient as long as you're willing to learn.

Hang in there.

[seveneyes]

58. I believe you admitted you believe there is no god

Then admitted to being an agnostic about such a belief. A bit washy washy but good enough to realize you have the ability to use logic.

I don't believe in anything without proof.

[beam me up scottie]

62. I told you I am an atheist yet you still believe I'm an agnostic without proof.

You're a true believer.

With that kind of conviction and aversion to the truth you could start your own religion. I hear the tax breaks are worth the hassle.

[seveneyes]

64. Music is as close as I get to religion

A scientist that can turn audible notes into emotion.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Nope. You're very religious in your thinking.

You're lucky it comes naturally, other fundamentalists have to work at it.

[seveneyes]

68. logic is fundamental

Believing that gods exist or not is ignorance.

[beam me up scottie]

69. It's illogical to believe something is true because you keep saying it.

But I understand why some people prefer make believe.

The truth is scary and logic is hard.

[seveneyes]

70. One has to believe in something

I believe I'll have another drink. Cheers...

[beam me up scottie]

71. Even when they know it's illogical.

That's why they call it faith.

I hope you're enjoying your own special kind.

[Ligyron]

63. lack of belief is not the same as disbelief. nt

[seveneyes]

67. If you negate believing what do you have logically ?

There is a a reason so few of us are low level hardware programmers.

(!believing == 0) == true

[Ligyron]

72. niether puters or associated hardware have beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

85. Not having a belief is the same as having a belief?

That's some real solid logic there.

[mr blur]

88. Go away and read a book or two. Not your diary, I mean a book written by

someone who knows what they're talking about. When you come back you might be able to join in without making a complete fool of yourself.

[AlbertCat]

89. Show me an atheist that allows for an undiscovered greater being and I'll show you an agnostic.

Show me proof and I'll believe. (well, I won't need to "believe" with proof, now will I?)



That's what an atheist says. I mean, if there was irrefutable proof, who wouldn't believe????

We "allow" for that. What else is there to "allow for? What else would be open minded?....unless you believe on faith.

Then you aren't an agnostic; you are a believer!

"Agnostic" is a term for atheists who are afraid to use the word "atheist"... because if we "knew", everyone would believe!

We certainly have ruled out any god described in today's religions. Changing the definition of "god" to "undiscovered greater being" won't work.

[LiberalAndProud]

59. The question is, do you believe it diety or do you not.

As an atheist, I'm willing to be proven wrong. You do seem to be confused about what most of today's atheists are saying about their state of belief. For myself, the possibility of a god is as likely as the possibility of the reality of leprechauns. Others take various other positions on the likelihood or not of a god. The evidence, however, suggests not. To be atheist is to be without belief. That's all.

Unlike others, I don't think that an agnostic is necessarily an atheist. I suspect that 'I don't know but I think so' is more likely among those who claim the agnostic position than 'I don't know but I think not.'

[seveneyes]

61. An agnostic requires proof

If that's you, welcome to the club of realists.

[LiberalAndProud]

65. Yes, and you can't prove a negative. So agnostic atheist would be me.

And I fully support unbelievers' efforts to counter the prayerful efforts of the religious to both proselytize and legislate their religious convictions from the public square. Your holier than thou attitude is rather offensive, honestly.

[Humanist_Activist]

76. No they don't, most disbelieve a claim, just like a claim about the existence of Sasquatch or...

leprechauns, no claim for knowledge is required.

[Lizzie Poppet]

87. I'd argue that many, if not most, recognize that it's a belief.

That is, most atheists I know, myself included, recognize that we don't know that there are no such things as gods and that this belief does not fulfill knowledge conditions.

[Lordquinton]

40. The worst of the three: the know it all agnostic

XKCD.jpeg

[seveneyes]

43. XKCD.jpeg requires a bit more direction to its source

Believing ain't seeing ...

[LostOne4Ever]

90. You don't have a clue what the word atheist even mean. nt

[MindPilot]

25. You keep using that word...

That's as much a religionist talking point as the "atheism is a religion too".

[seveneyes]

31. I don't expect everyone to understand quantum states

What is between existing and not existing? It sure as hell isn't believing and not believing.

[Humanist_Activist]

33. Please do NOT misuse quantum physics to try to bolster your non-point. n/t

[seveneyes]

34. My boots are full of water

Yet my feet are perfectly dry. Only those not stuck in their own reality can understand the point.

[cleanhippie]

86. He's pulling a Deepak!

Here, use this Chopra generator to retaliate!

http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/

[LiberalAndProud]

91. Somebody said Deepak.

(^ Sorry, it's Pavlovian)

[hunter]

74. Most "shit stirring atheists" have plenty experience being opressed by "religionists."

Their pushing back is entirely good, reasonable, and necessary in a free society.

I'm a Catholic heretic. My mom was going to be a nun until she met a leering, smoking, hard drinking priest who didn't seem all that holy to her. My mom bounces around between extremes, so of course she ended up with the Jehovah Witnesses, and meeting my dad, both working in Hollywood, they married and had a whole mess of kids Catholic style.

As a little kid who was already very weird, I ignored the Pledge of Allegiance to fidget at my desk, increasing my reputation for weirdness. My fourth grade teacher, who was a very wonderful person in many ways, used me as an example of religious freedom in the U.S.A.. Is it any wonder I hated school? I was always an outsider, an alien.

Unfortunately my mom has a tendency to say whatever she's thinking, sometimes about her conversations with God, and she also loves politics. That got us kicked out of the Kingdom Hall, bouncers at the front door style. After that we were soon Quakers. My mom could say whatever was on her mind, people listened respectfully, and then the Meeting moved on.

I still didn't say the Pledge in school. Quakers don't do that. I've seen my mom get in pissing contests with Catholic Bishops, and I was worried she might make a scene at my Big Catholic Wedding. (My wife is Mexican Irish Catholic, my mom's family is frontier Wild West Catholic.) I was even more worried about my crazy grandma who had a history of corrupting nice Mormon boys, throwing crockery at firemen, and biting policemen. (My grandpa was not a nice Mormon boy, but the two of them conceived a baby and fled poisonous religious tongue wagging and discrimination to non-Mormon California to work in the shipyards as welders.) My mom and her mom did not cause trouble at our wedding, they seemed to be enjoying themselves immensely. My dad, my brothers, religious heretics all of them, had a grand time making small talk with the priest about fishing.

My own relationship with the Catholic Church is complicated. Someday maybe I'll write a novel.

I know all about religious social pressures. It's not the atheist community imposing their beliefs upon anyone under color of authority.

My most disturbing heresy is time. I believe there is no such thing. Time travel and faster than light travel are impossible. We are all moving at the speed of light, nothing slower, nothing faster. Everything is relative and both the past and the future are fuzzy clouds of probability we are free to wander in from our own "now."

It's all stories, and the stories never end. The universe is very big, and our human minds are very small. We must cherish one another. What we "believe" changes both the past and the future.

[rhett o rick]

84. You are showing your lack of knowledge. Most "atheists" are given that label without their approval.

Although statistics wont show it there are millions of people that don't believe in god as defined by Christians. They are labeled atheists whether they like it or not. Most atheists are ambivalent about what is or isn't religious. Some do ask for equal rights with Christians and they get labeled "shit stirring".

[EvolveOrConvolve]

92. Fuck, haven't seen a smug agnostic like you in a long time

Agnosticism and atheism are two different concepts, and I'm not sure you know (or care about) the difference. In fact, based on your replies in this thread, you seem happily oblivious to the difference, and almost gleeful in your own imagined superiority.

[PufPuf23]

24. But but but ... The Mayor, James Fout, then went on to compare atheists to the Ku Klux Klan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/21/virginia-kkk-fliers_n_5008647.html

KKK Leader Disputes Hate Group Label: 'We're A Christian Organization'

The leader of the Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan is tired of “a few rogue Klansmen” ruining the group’s reputation, and argues that the group is a non-violent Christian organization.

“We don’t hate people because of their race, I mean, we’re a Christian organization,”

[L. Coyote]

50. Religion is often a tool for evil minds.

[seveneyes]

60. I demand they add a "maybe" booth

Our tax dollars at work.

[rurallib]

73. reason has no place in politics apparently

[niyad]

77. the satanic temple should join in.

[RKP5637]

79. K&R! n/t

[JHB]

81. "Prayer station"? No problem...

Invite the nearest muslims to pick that place to lay their prayer rugs down during prayer times, and the "prayer station" will be gone lickety-split.

"Oh, we don't mean your prayers, just ours."

[haikugal]

83. K&R!!!

Good news!! Thanks for posting!