Enough is enough with North Korea

[Dwayne Hicks]

How long will be tolerate them? They kill SK men and we say sorry, they constantly threaten to wipe us off the map and we say sorry. its the same song and dance and I for am sick of it. As a staunch liberal and Democrat I fully support the full scale invasion of North Korea. Diplomacy has failed for 56 years, the NK people are so oppressed they are petrified! SK does call of these sham talks and launch a massive artillery strike on NK. Yes I know "we" are supposed to be pacifists (well I never was) but enough is enough, bad things need to happen before they get better. If there is one war I support, its full scale war against North Korea. Now revoke my liberal card because I think for myself.

[zappaman]

1. Lol!

Do you write for The Onion?

[Dwayne Hicks]

3. I'm sorry

I don't fit your mold of the perfect Democrat. I am sorry I have my own opinion on things. I thought this is a quality we Democrats champion? Sometimes bad things happen, and sometimes to stop genocide and oppression you have to become a "monster". I do not wish for Seoul to be attacked, but this has gone on long enough, they already possess nuclear weapons, are we to simply wait until they develop a working ICBM? Then what? We give them more aid in exchange for their "mercy"? I am a Democrat though and through, but lets face it Democrats are starting to be seen as weak and pacifist (pacifism isn't weak but it needs to be smart) Just because republicans support invading any country that gives us the cross eye doesn't mean we cannot support military action on a nation that actually deserves it.


Go ahead mock away ban me whatever....This is my opinion and those who might agree I ask to stand up, and eve those that disagree, explain why? Why should we continue appeasement?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. I was thinking Weekly World News.

Does Ed Anger still have a column?

I'm madder than a hippie with a busted bong....

[zappaman]

49. Shhhh!

Wait until the Repubs see this!

[hifiguy]

64. Don't show that to Trump.

On second thought....

[msongs]

2. many flights to Seoul every day from the US. nt

[Change has come]

4. I spose you're gearing up to lead the charge?

Best of luck Dwayne Hicks. God Speed!

Do you have any proof that you think for yourself?


BOO!

[Dwayne Hicks]

5. Expected

Instead of engaging you insult.

[Change has come]

7. I'm asking you to engage

This is your battle. Go fight it!

[Dwayne Hicks]

10. I see

So since I have an opinion I have to personally go and fight. And what if I did then what would you say? Who says I am not enlisted now? I did not agree with Iraq at all, I agreed with Afghanistan in the beginning, I did not agree with libyan airstrikes. But how dare I have an opinion that is unpopular? instead of slinging your expected cliches why not engage the topic and offer a counter?

[Change has come]

11. How about this...

Read this thread tomorrow. If it makes sense in the morning, hit me up.

[GGJohn]

74. You couldn't be more wrong.

This is a US battle, we do have a mutual defense treaty with the SK.

[arcane1]

6. When do you enlist?

[HFRN]

43. ^+ 1,000,000

[Warren DeMontague]

8. North Korea is a totalitarian hellhole, run by complete maniacs; You'll get no argument from me.

However, all-out war on the Korean peninsula would quite likely turn rapidly into a big nightmare for lots of people. I suspect that is not what the residents of Seoul want, for instance.

If you want to blame someone- besides the sociopaths who run N Korea, that is- blame MacArthur, who could have stopped short of the Yalu river like Truman told him to, and as such - by not triggering the involvement of the Chinese - left the map quite a bit different than it stands today.

Unfortunately, though, the reality we are stuck with now involves a North Korea heavily armed and nuclear capable. I want the people of North Korea to be free, but the question is how to get there. And there are no real good options at the moment.

[Dwayne Hicks]

12. I agree

The Korean war should have ended in victory, but mistakes were made and we are here today. Regardless of what the other liberals say I stand by my opinion, I am not perfect and I may very well be wrong but this is my feeling my opinion and I feel strongly about it. I apologize if that is not the model Democratic behavior.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. I can't speak for anyone's definition of "model" liberal or Democratic behavior.

I read the book about the guy who escaped from the N. Korean concentration camp. The way the people up there are treated is unconscionable and inexcusable. It's probably the worst, most totalitarian regime on the planet, and that's saying something.

So like I said, I support freedom for North Korea. I don't know what the answer is, I just think all-out war has a lot of potential to turn very, very bad.

[lapfog_1]

29. The only way that the Korean war would have ended in "victory"

would have been to fully engage with Red China... and possibly even Russia... in another WWII scale war, only with nukes.

Some victory. Having just completed WWII and enjoying prosperity at home in the 1950s, the American people (including the "super patriotic never-met-a-war-they-didn't-like birchers aka now known as the Tea Party) would have not supported it.

It's not that you opinion isn't liberal or Democratic, it's that your opinion is ridiculous.

The facts are not on your side. History is not on your side. And the vast majority of people are not on your side (both in the US and the World).

[Warren DeMontague]

65. No, not complete victory. But UN forces were in most of North Korea, including Pyongyang

If MacArthur would have listened and not just gone ALL THE WAY up to the Yalu, thus freaking out China, the terms for the end of that war would have been totally different.

Once China got involved, yes, there was no way to avoid the stalemate we ended up with, short of catastrophic global nuclear clusterfuck.

[murielm99]

15. If we went to war with them,

I think they might take much of their anger out on Japan. The Japanese don't need to be attacked.

If we went to war with them, the Chinese might become involved again, in a shooting war.

The best thing might be to use back channels to see if the Chinese might use some influence to get NK to back off. All this because of propaganda coming over loudspeakers? (Of course, I know that is just the excuse they are using).

Do you live in Japan? Are the Chinese able to get through to the North Koreans, or am I wrong?

[Warren DeMontague]

17. No, never been to Japan. Spent about 12 hours in Seoul once, though.

I agree, war is not a terribly attractive option. I guess the good news in all of this is that the sabre-rattling on the part of the DPRK is a fairly common occurrence. Still, it sure sounds like the level of tension is not good.

I think you're right; I believe China is pretty much the ONLY entity on Earth that has any sort of ear with the leaders of North Korea. And yeah, I suspect they're already trying to get them to calm the eff down. China's got enough shit to deal with right now, last thing they need is an escalating conflict between nuclear powers right on their border.

[davidn3600]

16. How about sending Dennis Rodman back over there?

[Warren DeMontague]

18. yeah, that was pretty fuckin' surreal.

[GummyBearz]

42. Ambassador rodman needs more time

He is working on a diplomatic solution

[Art_from_Ark]

9. North Korea is contained

It's not a threat to anyone except South Korea and, to a lesser extent, Japan. As someone who is living in Japan, I'm not particularly concerned about the North Korean threat, even though they've lobbed a couple of rockets over Japanese air space since 1998.

[davidpdx]

19. Well put

[davidpdx]

20. You might want to look at the entire picture

Going to war with North Korea would be a colossal mistake. North Korea continues to be isolated from the rest of the world with the exception of China and Russia who have supported them off and on for the last 60 years. South Korea has the 11th largest economy in the world and a war with the North would devastate the economy and the country.

More information than ever is getting into North Korea through the smuggling of media into the country and use of television sets to watch South Korean television stations. People in the North are beginning to realize that what they are being told is a big lie. The question is at what point will the people finally get sick of it and over take the government. In my opinion it will happen eventually and it will be sudden.

The tensions you are seeing are flair-ups that occur from time to time. As someone who lives in South Korea and not that far from the DMZ, I've seen this time and time again for the last 11 1/2 years. I've been here through three nuclear tests and I don't know how many missile tests. A navy ship was sunk about five years ago and they shelled an island a few years ago.

The change in North Korea needs to come from within the country and by the North Korean people rather through a full scale war.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. I was hoping that you, as an American resident of South Korea, would chime in

to give some perspective to the armchair warriors.

Seoul is what, thirty-forty miles from the DMZ? People were just going about their daily lives.

[davidpdx]

66. I try to chime in when I see articles on South Korea

Some people are nervous here, but this stuff just doesn't faze me anymore. Much of the information and perception about the two Koreas is incorrect (granted when I came here 11 1/2 years ago I didn't know anything).

I'm not in the Korean or US military, but if it came down to defending Korea I'd do what I could to help because it is my home.

[yuiyoshida]

21. And I wonder how long it will take for Republicans

to start building Interment camps for Koreans in this country, once we go to war with them, or maybe it will be, since they are all so stupid, all Asians will be sent there.

[Lurks Often]

41. Democrats built the internment camps. You might want to re-read the history.

[yuiyoshida]

53. That doesn't mean PRESIDENT TRUMP

won't.

[Lurks Often]

59. Doesn't mean he will either, even if by some slim chance he becomes President

[GummyBearz]

44. Wouldn't they reuse all the Arab internment camps that currently exist?

Oh wait... That didnt happen. Nor did Vietnamese internment camps during Vietnam, etc..

[ryan_cats]

47. It was terrible for that Republican FDR to allow that

It was terrible for that Republican FDR to allow that. They didn't inter American people of Italian and German decent.
What, he was a dem?

[randome]

22. Cheese embargo. Problem solved.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[hifiguy]

62. There really needs to be a pay-per-view "ridiculous hair" showdown

between Kim Jung Cartman and Trump.

And what the hell is he doing with a wheel of Parmigiano Reggiano?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. So NK destroys Seoul and the SK economy, maybe drops nukes on Japan

Hundreds of the thousands die, millions wounded and reduced to refugees. A devastated SK inherits its northern cousins and finds them inculcated to hate, unskilled, starved and no way of supporting themselves.

Then we get to deal with an irate China that will not tolerate the encroachment up to their border.

What comes next?

[1939]

24. Unless the Chinese are involved in the solution, it is not feasible.

If North Korea shows signs of total collapse, I could see the Chinese agreeing to unification on the bases of severe limitations on the size and equipment of the armed forces of a united Korea and total removal of all US military personnel and capability from the korean peninsula.

[davidpdx]

67. I think this is the most likely scenario where the collapse is complete

and China has no other choice but to agree with SK, Japan, and the US to a plan for reunification.

Even then, I would bet that SK and NK would still remain separate for a long period of time while North Korea is brought up to date in terms of infrastructure, education, and jobs.

[treestar]

25. I give you props for expressing that

I read a book about NK once - it made the argument that what they do is logical if you recognize that what it is all about is that the leaders want to stay where they are, with their power an luxurious lives. Maybe a drone strike that takes out Kim Jong Un or lure him out of the country and get him.

They threaten with nukes and starve their people, getting us and other countries to give them money to prevent the starvation or ward off the alleged nuclear attack.

The book thought the solution was to get the relatively privileged in NK to see what they are missing out on in terms of technology, medical care, etc. Get them to overthrow the Kims themselves.

[Lee-Lee]

26. The only think South Korea fears more tha war is a collapse of NK

Because then they would be dealing with the worst humanitarian crisis the world has ever faced.

NK can barely feed its people enough to keep them alive. Any collapse of any magnitude would end that tiny bit.

You then have the huge task of dealing with trying to feed a nation made up of people so brainwashed many would starve or fight rather than take food, plus a stream of refugees going south that can't assimilate into the much different culture that is in the south and who would be a huge, huge drain on the economy.

There is, in the end, no good solution to North Korea.

[hifiguy]

56. Agreed. East Germany all over again

but a thousand times worse.

[davidpdx]

68. I think it's also worth noting that many South Koreans are unsympathetic and unempatheic

toward their brothers and sisters to the north. That honestly bothers me. The young generation seems to be the worse and just flat out doesn't care.

[leveymg]

27. If you want to turn South Korea from Seoul to the DMZ into one big crater, go ahead. Lose patience.

Have a nice, glorious war.

Suppose Daewoo and Halliburton will make a killing reconstructing the place.

[tblue37]

73. PRETENDING to reconstruct it, you mean. nt

[HassleCat]

28. South Koreans feel differently

People in South Korea are accustomed to the empty rhetoric coming from the north. They're confident things will go along this way until North Korea finally collapses, the same way the Soviet Union imploded. They're probably correct. The real problem is the North Koreans who are kept in concentration camps and, literally, worked to death.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. You're funny. nt

[FlatBaroque]

31. As a staunch liberal and Democrat I fully support the full scale invasion of North Korea.

Proving, once again, that the "Democrat" and "liberal" are truly meaningless labels. GO GET 'EM Dwayne!

[steve2470]

32. they are a periodic annoyance, nothing more

Unless they are completely insane and 100% stupid, they know they would be turned into a nuclear wasteland if they lobbed any nukes at Japan, South Korea or Hawaii. They rattle the saber periodically, we and the South Koreans have to take rational measures, then the whole thing blows over.

The real problem is the Chinese government. I have no issue with the Chinese people, but their government is not our friend or the friend of the South Koreans. Without the Chinese, they would have already collapsed.

[hifiguy]

63. I think the current situation suits both the SK and Chinese governments.

At least sans the nukes.

China doesn't want NK refugees and cannot figure out how to get rid of the Kim family; they also do NOT want war any more than the South Koreans do. South Korea wants unification in the abstract but not in the concrete. What the hell would SK do with 20 million mostly brainwashed and malnourished people who have no skills relevant to the ultra-high-tech SK economy? That would make the reunification of Germany look like a Lego project. The East German citizenry wasn't crazy and reduced to an almost subhuman state by their commies.

Eventually the Kims will be gone, and what to do with NK is going to be an enormous and expensive pain in the ass for Japan, China and SK.

[davidpdx]

69. I agree, China has their own agenda

I personally think that China does not ever want to see the two Koreas reunified whether US troops are here or not. A reunified Korea would serve as too much of a threat to them economically. I also believe that they could try to lay claim to parts of North Korea if reunification were to occur.

[LiberalElite]

33. Uh, why don't you just burn

that liberal card? Assuming you really have one. (Rhetorical joke) Point being, why not just express your opinion without knocking liberals?

[Nay]

39. +1000. nt

[still_one]

76. That is the most glaring point of the OP

[madokie]

34. War is an admission of failure

Never forget that and going forward life will be much better

[edhopper]

35. And if China steps in the defend them?

And if they use their Nuclear weapon if we do?

[NutmegYankee]

36. They are going to collapse on their own within 2 decades.

Just wait it out. Global Warming is going to skullfuck their farms.

[alphafemale]

37. So what?

I really don't care.

Let them do what they will.

[Nay]

38. You don't have to revoke your "liberal card," but you do have become less ignorant about

the problem of N Korea. I hope you have been reading the posts of some of the very knowledgeable people in this thread, and taken their points under advisement. And just FYI, the idea that liberals are pacifists is false, and is a right-wing meme that you may want to stop using. We know that war is required at times, but it should never be initiated stupidly.

[Sunlei]

40. lets drop a million cell phones on NK and hook them up to the real world.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. I've always felt that if the North Koreans did invade...

...the best tactic would be to set up mess tents with the finest Korean food cooking and loudspeakers offering all-you-can-eat to any troops who surrender. Yes, the NK army gets the best food, but even that isn't much, and armies are made up of young men, ages 18 to 25, the age when they can eat surprising amounts and not gain weight.

Then, when they've eaten their fill, take them on a bus tour of Seoul. Ask them how it squares with what they have been told about the South all their lives. Have them meet with emigres.

[hifiguy]

58. A few hours exposure to SK's food, media,

amazing pop culture (Hallyu), social dynamism and material abundance and they'd never, EVER go back.

SK is also famous for having loads of gorgeous and highly stylish young women, (see, for example Hyuna, as just the most famous current IT girl) a significant attraction for that male demographic. Kim Jung Cartman has nothing to compete with that.

To paraphrase the old song, how you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen Seoul?

[davidpdx]

70. It's not so much the music, but where the music is coming from that would distract me

[yuiyoshida]

75. Love Hyuna..

And of course SNSD: Girls Generation

[hifiguy]

78. The girl group Sugar was my gateway drug

to K-pop. To me it sounded like YMO (one of my all time favorite bands) playing Euro-techno pop with four ludicrously cute and surprisingly solid singers fronting the show. It was pure catnip for me

I love prog rock, The Grateful Dead, classical, EDM, chill and nearly all types if music but girl group techno K-pop is completely irresistible to me. It is so much FUN! And I also dig Ayumi Hamasaki.

[Warren Stupidity]

46. The estimated casualty rate for the first day

of a renewal of hostilities is in the tens of thousands. The potential casualties for the battle at the dmz and Seoul are in the hundreds of thousands unless it goes nuclear, in which case they will be in the millions

Nobody in South Korea wants this war. Ever wonder why,hot shot?

[Takket]

48. I don't want to spend a trillion dollars on a war

Just because I find it offensive their leaders say they want to wipe us off the map. I care about threats from countries that actually have the ability to back up their threats. North Korea can't.

[Glassunion]

50. You forgot to post your bank account info

so we can deduct the cost of a full out war from your checking account, as well as a poster up thread mentioned, your enlistment paperwork.

Sorry. I don't condone war. It may be necessary at times, but not this one.

[Teamster Jeff]

51. When the 1% and the Multi-Nationals want it to happen it will

The oppressed people will be nothing to them other than an excuse to invade.

Cheap labor and natural resources will be the real reason

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Are you from South Korea?

I was there last year, and people there seem a lot less upset about the North Koreans than you are.

Unless you are South Korean, what business is it of yours?

[davidpdx]

71. LL, you should have told me you were coming over

I would have invited you out for coffee or lunch.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. I may be over next year, so I'll let you know

Thanks.

[Rex]

57. Horrible idea, that would mean half of SK would be killed and a lot of our military too.

Despite what you might imagine it is like in Korea, the truth is NK holds a huge sword over the heads of NK and SK and people don't want to talk about it.

Your idea is madness, someone from inside NK will have to severe ties with the Kim bloodline. Sucks don't it? Has nothing to do with your cred...

[roamer65]

60. Turn up the volume on the loudspeakers.

Have them rockin' from Pyongyang to the DMZ, baby.

Talks with these tyrants are useless.

[tabasco]

61. Who's "supposed to be a pacifist?"

I'm an Airborne Ranger with two combat tours and a life-long liberal.

Not a pacifist just demand just cause for any military action.

I think you took a wrong turn somewhere.

[tblue37]

72. Our last Korean war didn't go so well--and NK is still China's client state.

China thinks of NK as an annoying but useful buffer between US troops stationed in SK and the Chinese border. If we were stupid enough to try out the Bush doctrine on NK, China would try out the Asian version of the Monroe Doctrine on us.

We've tried that business before with China in Korea. Wouldn't be prudent. (/dana carvey)

[truebluegreen]

77. Yea! Let's do another round of Regime Change!

'cause that always works so well.

Clearly the events of the last decade and a half have taught you nothing--that should be sufficient reason to revoke your liberal card.

[alarimer]

80. You are aware that they are completely unable to attack us, right?

The threat is the hollowest of hollow threats.

The people are suffering, certainly, but there isn't much we can do about it. They would suffer worse if we invaded and certainly CHINA wouldn't stand for it.

So, go ahead and wish for WWIII, if you like, but count me out.

[pampango]

81. No one is arguing that a government has a 'right' to starve and repress its people.

That is hardly a liberal take on human rights.

The problem is finding a solution to the starvation/repression that does not cause even more problems both in the short and long term. A military "solution" is often quicker but rarely results in a lasting improvement.