So much hatred

[jehop61]

Today I'm seeing many, many anti police statements on DU that it almost brings tears to my eyes. Yes, police actions can sometimes be overboard, but have any of you ever thought about the men and women behind these badges? They are people just like you who have families and who face danger every day just so society as a whole can function. Without police presence, life in this country would be intolerable. Who among you have ever scraped bodies off the pavement after a serious accident? Who has looked down the barrel of a gun? Who has been beaten by a crazed husband after a police officer has responded to his wife's call for help? Who has taken abandoned children on Christmas Day to a shelter so they can be cared for?

These are some things a person close to me has witnessed as a police officer. Police Officers are not all bad, nor do they hate protesters. They are charged with protecting a city and some protesters are intent upon hurting others and seriously damaging property. No matter what your protest, it should be lawfully carried out. So be mindful when ranting about the police state in Chicago for two days. There are two sides to every story.

[coalition_unwilling]

1. Hmm, wonder what your take is on this pic:

Or, for that matter, on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002710303

[Rose Siding]

24. My take is that the guy he watched break a stick over another cops head,

got lucky that this cop didn't use the riot stick he was probably trained to use.

The progressive shots leading up to this incident are here-

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/21/1093454/-The-full-context-of-the-police-beating-at-the-top-of-the-rec-list-

Two sides. There are lousy cops and some lousy protesters. Both cost us so much.

[coalition_unwilling]

28. I'll just bet you have a tidy little police-brutality-enabling

explanation for every picture in the thread immediately below it, too.

A lot of people emerged from the demo with scalp lacerations or worse. Are you seriously going to maintain that each of them attacked the pigs first?????

Puh-leeze.

[11 Bravo]

35. The poster was responding to a specific incident which YOU brought up.

Your preferred narrative regarding the picture which you chose to use to support you viewpoint has been proven to be bullshit. (Or maybe those brutality-loving anti-progressives at the Daily Kos photoshopped the whole thing.)
Learn how to pick your spots. There were certainly legitimate instances of police brutality you could have used to make your point, but as for today, you lose the internets.
(And "pigs" is soooo trite.)

[UnrepentantLiberal]

37. He won that point.

Now you're moving the goal posts?

[coalition_unwilling]

48. That's just splendid. Turning excessive force and police brutality

into yet another sports metaphor. Oy vey.

According to the thread on Daily Kos, there are mixed interpretations of the sequence of photos that precede the still shot. N.B.: Said sequence was not there at the time I originally posted it, nor have I had the time to review all the mixed interpretations of the sequence of photos which themselves apparently begin in medias res.

Care to spin this photo to the cops' advantage?



Oh, I'm sorry, there I go moving the goalposts. I always hated sports, so moving the goal posts is my revenge on the fucking jocks.

[randome]

50. You are on the right thread.

You seem to have a lot of hatred for your fellow DUers.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

57. Oh, no sports!

The only thing the "true progressive" hates more than the "pigs".

[coalition_unwilling]

58. Well, I was in chess club in High School. Does that count? :) - n/t

[zappaman]

68. Ha!

Glad to see someone else has picked up on that!

[Dragonbreathp9d]

91. Omg! I know him from Occupy Austin

Jesus I hope he is ok

[Cave_Johnson]

146. You seem to be complaining about his use of facts...

Individual frames in a busy situation can easily be taken out of context as well.

The millisecond before and after show something else entirely, as was shown with this photo.

[adigal]

39. Looks like someone in the back of the crowd starting pushing, One cop started swinging.

An idiot citizen started hitting the cops with a big white stick, and then a lot of cops started swinging their sticks.

I still think excessive force was used.

[jehop61]

96. Ah yes,

If you go to WGN.com you'll see the photographer tell the story behind this picture. This officer was hitting a protester right after the protester had knocked off the helmut of another officer and hit him in the head with a stick. Methinks there just might be another story surrounding this shot. Be careful of believing everything you see on the internet.

[KharmaTrain]

97. I Was Watching It Live On Channel 9...

Firstly, the Channel 9 reporters were all rooting for some kind of confrontation...disgusting coverage. That said, I was watching the peace rally on UStream and the WGN live coverage of what was happening at Cermak & Michigan. After the rally organizers asked the crowd to disperse and not to head east on Cermak (toward McCormick Place)...99% of those attending did just that. A group remained...locked arms...in the middle of the intersection and then started to move eastward down Cermak and ran into the police lines...that's where the "fun" begins.

Not only did that CPD have a wooden slat smashed over his head but there was a constant barage of bottles and other debris flying in their direction. It's not as though the CPD went into the crowd indiscriminately...they held their ground and when someone attempted to breach their line that's where the confrontations happened. Seems like there were instigators...be it black bloc or whatever...that were determined to put on a show for all those cameras that were present.

I've seen the CPD at its worst...the Days of Rage riots which were worse than the ones in '68. The attempts to paint this as some police riot is way off base.

[CBGLuthier]

99. Fuck em. and their fucking families too.

[coalition_unwilling]

104. Fuck whom? The protesters? The police? And why "their families too"?

[Zalatix]

2. So the cops' hatred for protesters and free speech doesn't bring tears to your eyes?

[Lionessa]

3. You wouuld think that people who have "scraped bodies off the pavement,"

might have some sense of not causing undue harm. But apparently when faced with real people with real complaints trying to peacefully and constitutionally exert their right to voice their frustrations with the 1%, they instead just go on power/ego trips.

You want the police not to be hated? Convince them to quit acting hatefully.

[Zalatix]

98. +1,000!!!

[Brickbat]

4. What? And get people to put down their broad brushes?

That's crazy talk.

[Iggo]

5. Oops.

I mean, "Yay, Cops! They're the best!"

[bigwillq]

6. There's some good cops and there's some bad cops.

Some are decent, some are corrupt.

Just like there are bad teachers and good teachers and corrupt politicians and clean ones.

I guess personal experience plays a role in how someone judges cops, or anyone for that matter.


Sometimes humans like to group folks together; sometimes fairly, sometimes not.


Cops dig their own grave when they use excessive force, and I think that's the impression many make about cops: That they abuse their power.

But I feel there are probably more good cops than bad ones out there. It's just that we usually hear more about the bad ones (as we should).

[jehop61]

21. Thank you

Some of the posts on this have proven my argument. As you say, there are good and bad among us all. I just wanted to make the point that all this hatred is destructive.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

38. I've met good police officers as well

when working at a convenience store years ago. Calling them all violent pigs is ridiculous.

[SoutherDem]

7. I agree

The police do many thing the average citizen will never know about, or want to know for that matter. I too have many friends who are police officers and they can tell of experiences which compare to that of soldiers. To condemn the whole group because of a few is wrong. Also, the police are charged to carry out the laws which protect us. If we have a problem with the law then demand our elected officials change the law, but don't blame the police for doing their job.

That said there are times when the police go over the top. But that is seldom and sadly our news media can make sure we know about each and every time a police office does something wrong, but they don't tell of the ones who are doing a good job. I can assure you if the news covered to good the same as the bad the new would be hours each day just to give equal air time.

[Bake]

52. That's the "few bad apples" argument.

You say, "There are times ... ut that is seldom." Seldom? Really?

We see the stories about the "bad apples" every week: a granny gets tasered on a traffic stop, a homeless man gets BEATEN TO DEATH after being told by a cop who is putting on his rubber gloves, "I'm gonna f### you up", the NYPD shove a broomstick up Diallo Amadou's rectum just for fun, apparently. How many others? We could list hundreds of these stories.

But that, you say, is "seldom." I say you're wrong. It's not just a few bad apples. There is something rotten to the core in PDs that never seem to weed out the bad apples, in fact, they seem to attract the psychos who just want a license to beat/shoot/brutalize people.

Seldom? I don't think so.

Bake

[FrodosPet]

83. What is the alternative?

We need police officers. To do their jobs, police occasionally have to be violent and authoritative. But only rarely.

How can we get more progressives to become police officers to crowd out the righties and do the job properly?

[Bake]

88. Lefties, righties, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEIR POLITICS ARE.

What matters is that they not be monsters. What matters is that they do their damn jobs. The answer has to be in a firm community control of the police who are supposed to "protect and serve." Weed out the so-called bad apples and make examples of them. Let it be known far and wide that a cop who does bad stuff gets fired, no pension, and maybe goes to jail. Make it clear that police brutality will not be tolerated -- fire the PD chiefs who won't do their damn jobs. Have psychological testing and recruiting, and thorough training for new recruits, so you don't get the "bad apples" in the first place.

Bake

[freshwest]

147. LEOs follow orders. Elect people who will change what those orders will be.

It has happened before, it can happen again.

[GObamaGO]

133. I personally believe that Internal Affairs Divisions need to be abolished

Instead, investigations of police officer misconduct need to be done by impartial community boards, and not police officers.

[FrodosPet]

138. As long as the boards are well trained

They should not be sworn officers, but they should have all the training that police have, so they understand not only what the laws are, but what normal procedures are. Some kind of licensing or testing is definitely necessary.

If the idea is to get a bunch of citizens together - I believe that is what the grand jury is about - to consider the raw case from the prosecutor and hand down indictments.

As far as the actual arrest goes - since the investigators are not sworn officers in your scenario, but merely fact finders, would there be an obligation that the suspects are arrested on demand by a senior officer in the department, or by an officer of the State Police or other county or statewide jurisdiction?

[Bake]

8. No, they're NOT "people like me."

I don't delight in beating people to death. I'm sick and tired of hearing the "one or two bad apples" excuse. It's a helluva lot more than one or two bad apples. I don't trust ANY of them. Not anymore.

Bake

[treestar]

11. Whatever the percentage, it still makes no sense to judge them all

And assume they are all bad. They perform a necessary function. When people do this, I'd like to know what their job or profession is. None of us are immune when it comes to that.

[Bake]

12. How many police brutality stories must we endure?

When will the "good ones" weed out the "bad apples?"

Until then, I'm done with them. They're all bad apples in my book.

Bake

[treestar]

23. It doesn't make the news when people do their job in ordinary circumstances

Cops have been killed on the job and that makes the news.

It makes no more sense to generalize negatively about everyone in a job than it does to do so on race or religion.

[Bake]

25. Then I repeat: the so-called "good ones" need to purge the "bad apples."

You act as if the "bad apples" don't even exist. Right, they're all just good, law-abiding, law-enforcing, keeping-the-peace, good guys.

They're not. A substantial chunk of them are nothing but brutal, violence-loving pigs. Say it loud enough and MAYBE, just MAYBE they'll do something about the psychos. But I'm not holding my breath.

Did you see the photos of the homeless guy the cops beat to death???? BEAT TO DEATH? Was that really necessary?

Bake

[treestar]

100. Then that applies to every profession there is

They all have bad apples and there are processes to get rid of them. Nothing human is ever perfect, however. So do you then distrust all professions? Doctors have bad apples too. So we should not go to doctors?

[Bake]

109. Doctors don't USUALLY go berserk and BEAT a homeless man TO DEATH.

While warning him as he snapped on his rubber gloves (don't want to get any blood on him, of course), "I'm going to f*** you up!"

So why don't we hear about all these bad apple cops going to prison?

Why? Because that happens RARELY -- far less often than the bad cop doing bad things.

Bake

[treestar]

119. that's not the issue

People can be killed by bad doctors, just in a different way.

The issue is you broad brush a profession or job. What's your job? I could find bad apples there, too.

[Bake]

120. Yes, bad docs can and do kill people. Usually it's negligence, not malice.

Doesn't make the vic any less dead, but there does seem to be a moral difference in terms of culpability.

And yeah, if I told you what I do, it'd be pretty easy to find bad apples in my profession. But we don't usually kill people.

Bake

[randome]

121. Cops don't usually kill people, either.

I don't see that anyone is defending cops beating a homeless man to death. That has zero to do with implying that all 800,000 cops in the country have the same mindset.

[treestar]

124. Cops may have saved lives on occasion

That is entirely possible. They have also solved murders and other crimes, helping protect society from those murders.

What of cops who get killed on the job?

Again, the broad brush is silly. You may condemn a cop who has gone overboard, but to condemn the entire profession is just as bad as any other group generalization.

[Bake]

125. The whole bunch? I'm not condemning the whole bunch

EXCEPT to the extent that they don't seem to do much about the "bad apples." And I conclude that they don't do much about them, because IF THEY DID, THESE INCIDENTS WOULD NOT KEEP HAPPENING.

At some point, you have to ask why the "good ones" don't do something about it.

Now, if you ask me, do I TRUST a cop? Nope. I don't. Not any further than I can piss against a hurricane.

Bake

[treestar]

126. Are you talking about some specific police force?

Or did you have some particular run in with a cop?

It's just silly not to "trust" them. What would you do if someone stalked you, chased you in a dark alley or broke into your house? What is your car was stolen? Mine was, and well, I called the cops. If I thought there was someone downstairs breaking into my house, I'd call the cops. There's no choice but to "trust" them.

I've had lousy teachers in my time. Still I think the schools need to remain open and most teachers get the benefit of the doubt.

[Bake]

127. I've had traffic stops where the cop the was rude, overbearing, but thankfully not violent.

My son, however, had a run-in with a corrupt cop in Giles County TN. So yeah, I've got a personal perspective on it.

But the bottom line is, why why why do we see, week after week after week, story after story about cops using unnecessary force (did they really HAVE to taser Granny for running a stop sign? And the one that was gonna "f*** up" the homeless guy and BEAT HIM TO DEATH????? OMG!!). The cop apologists like you don't say anything about the bad ones. You just come back with "Oh, the police are great! Look at all the good ones!"

And that just doesn't cut it for me anymore. The "good" ones turn a blind eye while their colleagues go medieval on someone for no reason.

And if somebody broke into my house? Ever heard the expression, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away?" Somebody who breaks into MY house meets my two friends. Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson. If I wait for the cops to get there, most likely I'm dead.

Bake

[treestar]

130. But you're going to need the cops after that

And you have a gun, so why should the rest of the world trust you with it?

Bad cases make the news. It's like saying I'll never fly, there have been so many plane crashes in the news. Since planes that have normal flights are not in the news.

I've had them be rude to me, but not as much recently, as I think they are better trained. They are the ones in danger in any encounter. They don't know you from someone who would shoot them dead in an instant. Think of J.D. Tippett, or any of the many stories like that. They just never know if they have drawn the nutcase who will shoot them dead.

[Bake]

137. You're going to defend the cops, so fine.

I don't trust them. If I or my son get stopped, WE'RE the ones in danger, not the cop. We're not a threat to him. He is a threat to us.

ON EDIT: The cops ought to wonder why people DON'T trust them. And the good ones who maybe deserve trust ought to do something about it (and I don't mean beat the sh*t out of the people who don't trust them!).

I'm done.

Bake

[hifiguy]

13. Yep. It's the bad cops who spoil the reputations of the other

15 percent.

[Bake]

14. Or maybe you're being generous ... or optimistic.

They defend the "bad apples" to the hilt. Or the core. Or whatever.

Ask a cop, and there are NO bad apples. The "bad guys" deserved it.

Bake

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

59. How do you talk to them?

Thought you didn't trust "any of 'em"?

[Bake]

67. I say "yes sir" and "no sir"

Because I like my nose where it is. On my face.

Bake

[derby378]

89. Maybe that's part of the problem

Nobody gets a "Sir" from me anymore - we're all the same skull beneath the skin. Even cops. And I will talk to a cop the same way I talk to anyone else, because no human being is better or worse than I am simply because they wear a badge.

[Bake]

90. I don't disagree, but courtesy goes a long way

And I like my face the way it is. I don't need some cowboy cop rearranging it.

Bake

[FrodosPet]

139. ANYBODY can get a sir or ma'am from me

Like you said, "we're all the same skull beneath the skin" and "no human being is better or worse than I am". So whether you are a cop, a business executive, a waitress, a ten year old kid, or a homeless person asking for "coffee" money, you get an appropriate (not excessive, gratuitous, or sarcastic) sir or ma'am from me.

"Please and thank you"s are also excellent ways of treating human beings like human beings.

[derby378]

140. I use the latter two all the time

Gratitude and humility, to me, are not at all incompatible with a radical sense of egalitarianism.

[backscatter712]

29. By my book New York City has had exactly two good cops in the past two generations.

One of them was Frank Serpico, and because of that, his fellow officers let him get shot.

The other one was Adrian Schoolcraft, and when he blew the whistle on NYPD corruption, they threw him in the psych ward.

Everyone else is either actively criminal or at minimum, complicit.

[Bake]

31. Even the good ones are complicit.

So logically there are no good ones, except the two you noted.

Bake

[backscatter712]

33. You don't see them arresting the criminal cops. n/t

[randome]

47. Um, yeah. Sometimes you do.

Hear about it, I mean. Not see it. It should happen more often, I suppose, because of the stressful nature of the job. Some cops get out of control, no doubt about that. But a lot more do not.

[PufPuf23]

85. Thanks about Adrian Schoolcraft as this I did not know.

Certain personality types join police.

Those that join are weeded out to a self-protected "band of brothers".

There are rare exceptions in localities but never in large law enforcement institutions which are all politically and economically corrupt -- joined at the hip with "convergent interests" -- and protective of their own by habit and fear of superiors.

Many are the jock bullies of high school that did not have the brains to be a curious and creative individual.

Croneyism too.

[rug]

145. +2

[dana_b]

42. right. When we hear story after story about how

protestor's are on the street bleeding from the head (with pictures to prove it) and NONE of the police officers call for medics to help them, I know that they are NOT like you or I.

Scott Olsen can now (thankfully) attest to this. He was in Chicago yesterday evidently and I hope he stayed safe.

[slackmaster]

9. I've found most police officers to be reasonable, level-headed, and open-minded, but only after...

...I became mature enough not to get myself into situations in which I was either making trouble or creating the appearance of making trouble.

They have one of the most difficult jobs IMO, and the constant exposure to people who are truly dirt-bags must make it hard for them to get out of the mind-set that everyone is a suspect.

[Bake]

16. Funny, I've found them to assume (and act on) the worst possible assumptions.

Beat first, shoot first, then go get a donut.

Bake

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

60. Ha ha.....oh hahahahahaa......donuts

Shit, your life experience boils down to a bad stereotype from sitcoms.

You are brilliant. Tell me more.

[Bake]

66. The donut crack was unfair, I admit it.

But YOU tell me how benevolent the police are. Or better yet, tell it to the father of the homeless man beaten to death last week ... or to Amadou Diallo ...

Go ahead. I'm waiting.

Bake

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

94. I wouldn't try.....

.....any more than I'd try to tell a person whose loved one died due to medical malpractice how great all doctors are or tell someone who got screwed out of their life savings by a bad tax attorney that not all lawyers are bad.

[Bake]

110. So I assume you adhere to the "bad apple" theory.

But it's true that a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel. We need a police force to police the police.

Bake

[Marrah_G]

80. The problem is that during these protests they good ones do not stop the bad ones

The good ones do not tell their bosses that violating civil rights is wrong.

I understand that they worry about incomes and benefits and pensions, but THEY need to understand that the elected officials, the big money donors, etc are NEVER going to be the ones who fight for their union rights. The people that WILL fight for them are the very ones that they are allowing to be treated badly. In the end if we do not stand together, we will surely fail.

As I watched the livestream from Occupy Boston, I could clearly see on the faces of many of the officers, especially the older ones, that they did not want to be there the night things went bad.

It doesn't have to be this way.

[randome]

82. I'm not sure it's that simple.

Not when you're in the middle of a crowd of thousands. The cops probably think first about defending themselves and their fellow officers. They aren't going to make things easier by fighting themselves at the same time.

[socialist_n_TN]

10. ANY supporter of the 1% who's of the 99%.............

is NOT a worker, but is a bourgeoisie cop.

IOW, when they start supporting the people and not the owners, they'll get the props for it. When they beat people up or injure and kill people under color of authority and in support of the owners, they'll get smacked for it. Like it or not, it's a real who's side are you on time. That goes for cops too.

BTW, that also applies to the "good" cops who go along with the culture of coverup of the bad cops.

[Atman]

15. Just another hit-and-run poster.

"No matter what your {job}, it should be lawfully carried out. So be mindful when ranting about the police state in Chicago for two days. There are two sides to every story."

Yes, but in your post, I seem to only be hearing ONE side. Hmmmm.

.

[Marrah_G]

17. At some point the police are going to have to make a choice

I realize many are following orders they do not like in order to keep their jobs, benefits and pensions. But somewhere down the line they need to understand that the people who will fight for their union rights are the protestors and NOT their bosses and elected officials.

[otohara]

18. My Coversation With Two Police

after attending Occupy Denver

Well, it was more like them calling the protestors vile names like shit-bags, scum-bags, rapists, etc....

One of them had a wad of tobacco in his mouth. I reminded him that us scum-bags were going to pay for his future case of mouth cancer.

[L0oniX]

20. Yes those skulls are costing tax payers money to replace the broken batons.

[pintobean]

64. I support cops.

So, fuck me?
What a juvenile comment.

[zappaman]

69. In that case

fuck me too, I guess.

[pintobean]

73. I always thought you were

a bootlicker. It really shows in your posts.


Just in case...

[zappaman]

75. To be fair...

I'm a fucked bootlicker.

[pintobean]

78. I do?

Huh. How enlightening.

[pintobean]

81. No, it squats.

[pintobean]

86. What you do in private

is your own business.

[zappaman]

87. You deserve a DUZY for that one...

[zappaman]

113. Thank you John Edward

for speaking to the dead and telling me what they say.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

114. No, really. Just look at Zappa's life, at his words. You're on the diametric opposite end of the

spectrum. Vomit. All over.

[pintobean]

128. You have serious issues.

You can't take an innocent joke and you can't handle anyone having a different opinion than yours. Looks like a lot of anger and hatred. I sure as hell wouldn't want to go through life like that. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with it.

[randome]

22. There are more than 581,000 police departments in this country.

More than 301,000 are in metropolitan areas. More than 800,000 officers.

They aren't ALL working for the 1%. And they aren't all violent thugs, either.

The hatred comes from feeling powerless because it doesn't make sense to paint everyone in a group the same way because of the actions of a very small number.

[adigal]

44. Are you sure your numbers are right?? That would mean each state has 10000 police departments???

That seems really high.

[randome]

45. Pulled quickly from Yahoo so I haven't double-checked.

But how many cities are in the largest states? Quite a lot. I would guess the numbers are correct but I'll do some further checking.

[adigal]

49. If that is right, that is scary. 10000 police departments per state? Wow. n/t

[PavePusher]

134. It's basic math, and not at all "scary".

How many towns and cities in the U.S. with their own police department, even if only 2 or 3 officers? Then you have all the county Sheriff offices...

[adigal]

135. 10,000 departments per state?? Not officers. Departments. n/t

[WingDinger]

26. When the mission of cops transmogrifies into protecting the property of the 1%, we get Keystone Kops

&feature=related

In the depression, the cops were bullies of the 1%. Any time a cop was around was BAD, so ALL residents of poor areas, sang out to let everyone know, the PIGS are here. They will regain that mantle, if they continue to work for thugmasters, and persecute the lessers.

Cops also insulate themselves from all the rest of us. They take steroids as a majority. They disparage minorities and poor. Harbor many prejudices. And our elevating them to generic heroes doesnt help. They received permission to lie, even in court. They will pad their reports, to make themselves shine. And condemn YOU. They will trick you, misquote you, and deny your constitutional rights any time they can, without any guilt. They will laugh at their setting you up to lose possessions, or freedom. To them, that is a rush.

I DONT LIKE COPS, BUT, I always talk respectfully, till they cross the line. MANY HAVE.

[sabrina 1]

27. Yes, so much hatred. Why do cops hate the people they are paid to protect so much?

Who taught them to hate their own people like that?

Who told them it is okay to nearly kill peaceful protesters?

Whose idea was it to dress them up like storm troopers and arm them with military style weapons that they HAVE used against peaceful citizens?

If there are good cops, where are they? Can you link to just one who has spoken out against the brutality of their comrades against peaceful demonstrators, including Old Women and War Veterans who certainly risked THEIR lives assuming they had a right to exercise the rights they were told they were fighting for??

Wait, to be fair, there are a couple. Two that I can think of right now. And they are heroes.

But when all we have seen is an army of thugs armed to the teeth, calling names, instigating violence and murderously attacking unarmed, peaceful civilians, it's a bit difficult, I hope you understand, to conjure up much sympathy for them.

I know a couple of decent cops but they have told me that their buddies do things they are ashamed of on a daily basis. NYPD so I know they are not lying, we've seen the evidence now.

Sorry but for now, my sympathies all go to American Civilians who do not deserve to be treated this way by their own employees who seem to have forgotten who they work for.

[Rex]

32. When Bloomberg is not overlord of the NYPD

I will start believing some of this pro cop propaganda.

[Rex]

30. A nice but extremely subjective post.

With the canard, 'you protest against cops, therefore you must hate ALL cops'. Just for good measure. You, like many, miss the point entirely IN THAT why would good cops follow unlawful orders? Does a protest with a bunch of unarmed civilians gives them immunity to behave badly? Like the bad cops? Like Boomberg's private army (NYPD)?

I don't think so. Keep in mind we are not talking about traffic tickets.

[Zorra]

34. Principle IV

Principle IV states: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".

This principle could be paraphrased as follows: "It is not an acceptable excuse to say 'I was just following my superior's orders'".

[adigal]

36. Well, my husband was a NYC cop for 3 years before going to be

a fireman in NYC. He looks at these protests and says he would never, ever, beat down a citizen, or use pepper spray, without serious provocation. But this is a guy who thought being a cop meant helping the kids in the neighborhood, looking out for them, rather than arrest them. My son refuses to be a cop - he thinks they are mostly a-holes, and they are in the small upstate town we now live in.

Many cops are cops because they like to be bullies, and have power over others. Otherwise, they would be accountants. I think my husband is the exception. Unfortunately.

[HughBeaumont]

40. Uh, they very much DO hate protesters who are left of center and further.

Ever see any TeaHadists get arrested? Beaten? Inconvenienced in ANY way?

Ever see the armed TeaHadists get harassed? Told to leave? Arrested?

Anecdotal experience: Five freepers in 2007 beat a Gold Star dad (that's someone who lost his son in one of Bewsh's illegal wars) in broad daylight, in a public square. DC's finest arrested NOT A ONE of them. There's photographic proof of that on this site and others. The assailants are highlighted in the pictures, along with these rednecks laughing it up with the police. All day, these chuckleheads were getting away with threats, thrown objects, assaults, etc against our side . .. NOT ONE ARREST.

I hate dirty cops who historically and currently serve as corrupted protection for the 1%. They have never been on the side of the left and wouldn't hesitate for a second to beat us down whenever possible. Countless video footage, photos, witness accounts, etc. as proof leaves your case pretty weak. When it comes to police brutality, historic and current, there really isn't a second side and it's not "just a few bad apples".

Sometimes, wrong is just fucking WRONG.

[randome]

46. Tea Party types don't congregate is as large a number as these protesters did.

There are far more liberal-minded protesters than Tea Party types.

Not saying that's an excuse for anything, just pointing out an obvious difference.

[haele]

41. Police are just as susceptible to mob mentality as any other group.

Even good cops will do stupid, mean things in when they get in a mob. Especially if the leadership at the scene either doesn't care, is looking for a promotion, or wants to break heads.

Not an excuse, but an explanation.
We learned that in our leadership class - depending on how well trained and disciplined the unit is and whether the on-site leader has a clear goal in mind, the unit's level of maturity in a tense situation decreases in a specific formula -
We learned to create a subjective rating of 1 - 5 for level of maturity and grade everyone in your unit along that rating, using discipline, training for the event, excitability, aggression and experience.
Take the total level of maturity of everyone in that unit, and divide by three. Add the level of maturity of the leader, divide by 100, and you will get your average percentage chance for disciplined activity. Most military units (10 and above) fall around the 30 - 50% level. Most smaller units (9 and below) are around the 50 - 70% level - again, depending on the maturity level of the on-site leader.

What I suspect you are seeing in Chicago is poor leadership with enough bad attitude cops that everyone in the unit, be they good or bad cops, is being influenced by the bad.
Again, not an exucuse - because it shows piss-poor political leadership. poor recruiting values, and cuts in training.

[just1voice]

43. You're a lousy fiction writer

So I won't be reading anything else of yours.

[GoneOffShore]

51. Excellent response to a drive by, flame bait post.

[coalition_unwilling]

53. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - n/t

[cali]

54. boofuckinghoo, sweetie.

Now beat it.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

55. Reports of good cops are anecdotal evidence at this point. nt

[TheKentuckian]

56. let us defund and see how many "heros" stick with it.

Minus the benefits and legal gang status most of these miserable fucks will continue on into unsanctioned crime.

I know cops by the shitload, skip the virtuous claptrap. Even the "good ones" protect, cover for, and support the worst and most of them see the work as a job like everyone else but almost all see it as a lifestyle and a fraternity that sets them apart and above those they are supposed to serve.

To hell with the excuses as well, if they cannot perform their duties without being pigs then they need to find other work.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

62. "let us defund"

That's usually what the right says about teachers.

[Zalatix]

101. Cops = teachers, gotcha.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

103. They are both public employees

And therefore, there are always groups who have an axe to grind with them. Sometimes it's legit, and a lot of times it's not.

I support the public sector. Do you?

[Zalatix]

105. The right wing loves cops and hates teachers for a reason.

Want to guess what that reason is?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

106. Actually, the right does not always love cops

I've met quite a few right wingers who in fact believe the police are out to get them (as much as anyone on the left does). Many police agencies support things like the assault weapons ban, which puts them in direct conflict with the right. And make no mistake, they'll be among the next on the chopping block when it comes to the right's systematic destruction of the public employees sector.

[Zalatix]

107. Cops won't get chopped... who else can the Plutocrats call on for defense?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

108. You can keep saying that all you want

But as someone in a town fighting budget cuts by teabaggers to all levels and departments of public services, I know it's not true.

[Zalatix]

117. Ok so who will the Plutocrats rely on for defense if they keep cutting the cops?

You can avoid answering that all you want.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

131. "Plutocrats" can hire their own security, they don't need government to arrange it for them

Drop the Orwellian pseudo-social babble bullshit and give me a call when you get to this decade. There are goobers being put in charge of shit in every town and city who think as long as they have an ADT security alarm on their house, a cache of guns, and a good fence they are safe and fuck everyone else.

[Zalatix]

132. They may think they're safe, but they're not.

Why don't you drop the ignorant cop cult bullshit and give me a call when you get to this MILLENIUM. The Arab Spring happened in this millenium despite all the security in the world.

The more you push the harder I will push to de-fund and reform the law enforcement system.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

136. Congrats

I know a few teabag groups who would welcome you in my town. Meanwhile I'm down here trying to fight those assholes from gutting my town of ALL services. As nicely as I can say this.....screw you.

[white_wolf]

123. The military? If things get bad enough.

[Comrade Grumpy]

115. We have too many cops. Not enough teachers.

For me "supporting the public sector" doesn't mean "supporting the repressive apparatus of the state."

[TheKentuckian]

118. They sure do and it works. Defunding the police would be orders of magnitude more successful

No more hot rod new cars, no military hardware, no vice budget to distract and inflate, no latest gadgets would make the game less appealing and hitting the perks and pay would make the field less appealing.

It may also shrink the footprint and put cops in harm's way less regularly by reducing stops and getting them out of vice conflicts. Maybe without the "enforcement" capability they will settle down to protecting the peace or failing that stay out of the way of free people.

Hell, I'm not convinced that beat cop should be a profession at all. I lean toward a two year public service tour like the military or the peace corps. We'd still need detectives and specialists but the people on the beat should be from and usually return to the community which would transform the relationship.

I'm not going to mindlessly support funding for missions and outcomes I oppose because they are public sector. That is misusing the public's resources for fetish.

Your budget is where the rubber meets the road for your priorities. Why would I budget in opposition to my priorities? Logically, it would have to be actually to their direct detriment as well unless I had manage to move resources from other areas of opposition (which means I defunded them). There are only X amount of dollars available and I am not fixated one way or the other with the size of the sector, only that it perform as dictated by the needs of the people. I tend to think government is the better vehicle to do and certainly over see many things so I tend toward the large but if small was able to do the job that would be fine too. Limited government is all I care about, that it be constrained by the will of the people and function in a manner that reflects only taking such power that is granted.

I'm quite comfortable with the concept of taking from something I don't like and either re-directing the resources I like or even just reducing the public strain by nixing bullshit. Bullshit like our bloated and mis-purposed police departments.

[Skip Intro]

61. Cop hatred is a DU tradition. nt

[Union Scribe]

74. So long as citizen-beating is a cop tradition

I'm okay with DU's tradition.

[Egalitarian Thug]

63. So much denial. n/t

[Puregonzo1188]

65. Did you feel that way about the Egyptian police? The Syrian?

And if not, how come you never thought about the men and women behind those badges? I am sure they too are people just like us have families and who face danger every day just so society as a whole can function.

[RZM]

72. The UN estimates that about 10,000 people have been killed in the fighting in Syria since March 2011

Killing on that scale in the US would mean 140,000 deaths. That's slightly less than half the number of military personnel the US lost in WWII.

Do you really think that's an apt comparison?

[stlsaxman]

70. "have any of you ever thought..." oh, puh-lease!

no- none of us have ever thought.

[Great Caesars Ghost]

71. Police in the US are the muscle of the 1%

They only support democrats for the fact that they need money to advance their weaponry. The main problem is that we don't flex ours right back at them ten fold.

[fascisthunter]

76. lol

[Dragonbreathp9d]

92. Most cops suck- there are only a few good apples

Right now I'm dealing with legal problems surrounding what was basically a stop and frisk. My rights were violated and a controlled substance was planted on me. So I have no love for cops right now.

This all bein said I think the reason for so many bad cops has a lot more to do with the system. 1. They are law enforcement. Period. They are not peace officers, they are not protectors of citizenry- they are not supposed to interpret- merely to arrest. 2. Payment for arrests. Yes this does exis in places - I have personally heard police discussing it. 3. Low standards allow bullies from high school to do it legally and with a gun

[99Forever]

93. I hate all brutish bullies...

.. whether they carry a badge or not. I also hate those that COULD stop the brutish bullies from plying their trade but CHOOSE not to.

Evil can only succeed when good men stand by and do nothing.

Frankly, if you or your violence loving porcine pals don't like what I have to say, too effen bad.

[daaron]

95. Not a lot of thoughtful responses in this thread, so -->

here ya go:

The rise of the American Police State (yes, a burgeoning reality, cop-apologists aside) is due to, in my opinion, two primary factors: (1) the low bar for qualification, and (2) the fraternal nature of the police union. (We could get into corruption, militarization, etc., but I would still argue that these problems are of a higher-order and dependent on the first two.)

The qualifications to become a cop are ridiculous. A GED and a couple years at cop school - not even the equivalent of an associate's degree, since it's not exactly a mind-broadening curriculum. More like one of those certificates you get. If you DO have a higher degree already, you are considered OVER qualified to be a mere police officer. You could take the detective's exam, but none of those beefy boys that can pick a kid up by the neck with one hand have a Master's degree in anything. They are the hired muscle. In short - all the WRONG people are becoming cops (our society's bullies, in large part), and it is now a structural factor.

The police union is a more complex issue. Progressives will often reflexively support cops because they are unionized. But we must recall U.S. history - this ain't the AFL/CIO, people! The Fraternal Order of the Police is just that, 1st and foremost - a fraternal order, explicitly modeled on Freemasonry and custom fit to help integrate Irish immigrants following the Potato Famine. It's a side-note, now, but it's also the roots of the organization. Today, in Albuquerque, the union has been targeted by community activists for the practice of paying officers out of their coffers when that cop shoots somebody and earns desk duty - even when the person they shot was wielding nothing more deadly than a plastic spoon (true story).

[raouldukelives]

102. I have thought about the people behind the badge.

I've wondered how they could support and partake in actions against fellow Americans expressing Constitutional rights. Of how self-professed Christian officers could gleefully cause pain upon helpless others. Unless of course they don't believe in those values themselves. I honestly don't think they really think about it all. Just following the herd I imagine. It's a job and putting your patriotic or religious beliefs ahead of a paycheck, a really fat paycheck, is a hard thing to do. Too hard for most.

[heaven knows]

116. I saw some stuff on Youtube

that made me want to puke. A woman taunting the cops, taking out all her rage on them. She knew damn well that they could not do anything to her so she bullied them. It works both ways. Thank you, I agree with your post!

[TBF]

122. I have a really good friend who is a cop so

yes I can understand being upset about the broad brush statements.

Of course all are not bullies. My friend, for example, stayed in town to rescue folks when the rest of us (and his family) evacuated for a hurricane. They put their lives on the line often.

Folks are justifiably angry after the behavior in Chicago, but you definitely make a valid point as well.

[Quantess]

142. There really are plenty of good cops!

We forget this, because of the bad ones. But, we need good cops! I thank them!

[Hatchling]

143. I'll stop hating.

Just as soon as they quit pulling my "sister" over for walking or driving while black.

Haters like that invite hatred.

[Fire Walk With Me]

144. I've been with and following the Occupy movement closely since its birth

and if you have as well, and been there, and seen the citizen journalist video and pictures, you would never ever sympathize with cops ever ever again.

There are a few good cops, and there may be cops on the line between good and bad, but the utter, howling lack of police stepping forward and condemning months upon months of nuisance arrests (7000+!!!) and blatant, utter brutality shows me when it comes to being a cop or fighting for the truth, they choose being a cop, and we pay for it, literally and figuratively.

I start to feel ill when I even begin to call to mind a list of what they have done to peaceful citizens, and our rights, so I won't even go there. I can't bear it. All those aggro, roid cops, smiling, looking for a reason, and some even saying so...and no other cops to ask them to stop, or turn them in.

I was fucked over by a cop while my fellows were being snatched and arrested. They broke at least three laws against me in the process, and then refused to give me the offenders name and badge number, even as I shouted the California code saying they have to at the top of my lungs. 36+ cops standing there listening to me, and not one made a move to fulfill my legal request. Meanwhile, this aggressor stood there smiling and smiling.

Guess it depends if you're an Occupier or not. They don't beat everyone up, but it sure helps if you're attempting to practice your 1st Amendment rights. You'll soon find out they no longer exist. There are months of photos and video to prove this. That's what should be bringing tears to people's eyes.

[Zalatix]

148. Another reason to stop hating on the cops

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002725518