Things American Muslim women don't wanna hear from you

[Syzygy321]

I get the feeling on this site that no one here actually hangs out with Muslims and knows them as people.

Which doesn't surprise me since (a) its a small minority and (b) the serious ones socialize mostly amongst themselves (at least the ones I know) and the liberal few are not especially recognizable when you see them at your book club or your workplace.

So this OP is in the interest of cross-cultural understanding. Muslim women in hijabs are mostly kinda sick of being singled out as if they're weird or special or cute pets or the enemy.

Some things they hear too much:

(1) "Aren't you hot in that?". (said to any woman wearing a hijab, abaya, etc in summer.

Ask this and you'll probably get a polite smile and a "Actually, no. I'm not."

Meanwhile, she's thinking that you're the fiftieth person to ask her that this week, that you're boring and boorish and intruding on her clothing choices and you're probably trying to insult her religion.

And BTW, she probably IS hot in that but she'll never admit it, and it's still NOYB.

(2) "You speak such good English!". Usually said to a woman in traditional Muslim garb who is a lifelong American.

(3) "Hey, I know some Arabic. 'Allahu Akbar!'. How was that?"

This was said to my visiting relative in the local park, by an older guy who was probably just trying to be nice. She smiled painfully and angled her shoulders as she turned back to me, and I know what she was thinking: "Americans are idiots."

. (This is probably the equivalent of making "Indian war-whoop" noises when someone mentions that she's Cherokee.)

(4) "Does your husband treat you well? Don't let him treat you like chattel!".

Ding ding ding! You've just won the "ugly stereotype" award.

The fact that the stereotype is often true (husbands lead; women follow; and if he wants to treat her 'like chattel' there may not be much she can do about it) does not mean she wants an outsider flinging innuendos at her and her husband and the way of life she has chosen (or is stuck in). You're. Not. Helping.

(You know the old saying, "I against my brother; my brother and I against our cousin; my cousin and I against a stranger"? You're the stranger in that lineup, buddy.)

(5) "You don't *really* think God cares whether people eat a slice of bacon, do you? I mean, God's so much bigger than that."

Your Muslim acquinatance is thinking, Shut up and butt out, asshole.

(6) "Whoa - is this a stickup?".

I heard a guy say this to a niqabi (face-veiler) woman outside of a store. She ignored him. Okay, so I laughed after she was gone. But that's because I hate those friggn niqabs.

My daughter got scared of a faceless woman in a mall when she was little, and I made a point of answering loudly, "Yes, hon, it does look scary. Let's move."

(You can hide your damn face (women) or refuse to shake my hand (men), but I'm not obligated to support your bullshit when you inflict it on the public.)

That concludes this PSA.

[Iggo]

1. Okay, that's enough.

[roguevalley]

32. in the winter here i wear hijabs. i have pashminis and wear them that way. DO IT! I

guarantee, Boston et al you won't regret it. First time I have EVER been warm. I love hijabs. As for the remarks, anyone who makes them is sad to me. Sad, sad, sad. We aren't noted for our cosmopolitan outlook as a people.

[Lizzie Poppet]

2. "Aren't you hot in that?

Traditional male dress from many of the regions where Islam is predominant also features head coverings and voluminous body clothing. They didn't pick that stuff because it's bad at keeping someone reasonably cool in a hot desert environment. Lots of exposed skin under desert sun is a bad idea (and doesn't keep you cool).

Sheesh...some people!

[riderinthestorm]

4. The naked and near naked desert tribes of Africa, Australia etc disagree with you

its hard to not see the shrouding garb as particular to those religious cultures when so many other desert dwellers simply abandon clothing altogether.

[Lizzie Poppet]

7. Good point.

I'm sure religious beliefs have a lot to do with those choices...superstition is powerful, powerful stuff.

[Fawke Em]

18. Have you ever worn one?

Many of those flowing garments act like a wind tunnel and keep you cooler.

[riderinthestorm]

27. I work outside every day. I've tried every type of garment available to stay cool

in 100+ degree humid Illinois weather.

A black burqa is NOT cool. Sorry. I'd hazard you've never tried it before. The Internet is full of stories of women who've done it - read Honeymoon in Tehran for a first hand report about wearing a chador for months, not even a burqa, and come back and tell me her heat stroke episodes were actually imaginary and she really was "cooler" than her male companion who didn't have to cover...(and never fainted once during the "honeymoon".)

An open weave straw sunhat, my Merrill trekking sandals, loose shorts and a tank top with a frozen neck bandana works best after 25 years of trial and error. I'd go naked if I could get away it - air moving across my sweaty skin is the most effective.

[Fawke Em]

30. LOL. I hate being hot. I understand the "going naked" thing.

But, I did wear some traditional dresses my former sisters-in-law gave me when I was visiting Jordan. They were light-weight and very comfortable.

Then again, the heat is a bit different in Jordan than it is in East Tennessee. Here, you walk outside to get the mail in August and walk back in wringing wet. Ours is a very humid heat.

[Syzygy321]

9. In America and most Muslim lands the shrouding is extremely female-specific. And sexist.

Please don't make excuses: the theme of "women must cover their bodies to avoid tempting men, causing sin, offending God&quot or, ha, "being treated like a sex object the way western women are&quot etc, is the major driver behind the clothes.

But: still NOYB.

[Recursion]

46. Women in the Arabian peninsula covered before Islam came along. Or monotheism

It's not a religion-specific problem there.

Meanwhile, half of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia, Malaysia, and Bangladesh, and even hijab is not particularly popular among them except on formal occasions.

[Tipperary]

3. To my way of thinking, any person who would make any of those comments to someone they do not know

is an impolite buffoon. I certainly hope that your PSA is not needed amongst the dwellers of the DU.

[Syzygy321]

6. Well, I think it comes up more among

friends and acquaintances. She's your colleague or the mom of your kid's teammate so you're already friendly, and you just can't resist asking her that question that's been nagging at you...

[Tipperary]

8. I work with two women who wear the head covering. We make polite co-worker chit-chat on a daily

basis, but it has never occurred to me to ask those questions. Not ever. Seriously, I can not imagine saying something like that, but maybe it is the way I was raised.

[Syzygy321]

10. Thanks.

Yeah I find it weird too. I mean, I do think it's often just bursting curiosity or good intentions, but.

[Tipperary]

14. I am gay and when I was younger, I had intrusive comments like that directed my way. Often they were

just "curious" comments. I will refrain from providing examples here, but I am quite sure you can imagine. I never took offense, but I still found those people to be rude. But it still amazes me to hear people ask others how much money they make an hour or a year. I find it incredible that people do that. I have heard questions like that all my life and I never know exactly what to say because I do not like to be rude in response, but holy cow!

[snooper2]

5. They also don't want to hear that I smoked pot in her back yard last weekend with her husband

man she would be pissed!

Hey, I was just helping him get his tiller going

[Fawke Em]

19. No she wouldn't.

Hashish and "real" Hookah bars are quite common in many parts of the Middle East.

Pot is far less verboten than pork and alcohol in Islam.

[Facility Inspector]

11. In line at liquor store

White Guy says "Salaam a Aleikum" to clerk, did not realize that clerk was a Hindu from India and not a muslim.

Clerk got pissed and corrected dude.

[Syzygy321]

12. In line at a liquor store! LOL!

[pinboy3niner]

13. I've heard similar directed to the Syrian family that runs a local convenience store

Despite the religious icons displayed behind the counter, which should telegraph to any thinking person that the family is, in fact, Christian.

[Recursion]

47. That's why I stick with "marhaba", particularly in the US (nt)

[uppityperson]

16. Are you saying "White Guy" can not be a muslim or simply being polite?

Fail for the first as yes, "White Guy" can well be a muslim. And fail to the clerk for getting pissed at someone being polite, wonder if he goes off on people saying "have a nice day"?

[Facility Inspector]

25. It isn't a Hindu greeting

Not all South Asians are muslim.

Backstory: the clerk doesn't like Pakistanis and takes offense when people assume he is Pakistani.

[nomorenomore08]

37. Yeah, Hindus vs. Muslims makes most other interfaith beefs look mild by comparison...

[Oneironaut]

22. Omg lol

That's hilarious

The guy was probably just trying to be nice, but I would have died if I saw that.

[awoke_in_2003]

36. "The guy was probably just trying to be nice"

I agree. I have been told "Happy Hanukah" when I lived in Cleveland. I am not Jewish, but it was no big deal. Someone was trying to be polite, so I was polite back.

[REP]

15. Depends upon where you are!

I live in an area with more than a few "liberal" Muslims, and from cultures where what women wear is up to women (so yes, many Turks).

And no matter what the intention, questioning women like in your examples isn't much better than what the Virtue Police do, although the attempt to speak another language, though clumsy, is probably truly meant to be friendly. I'm sure you know the joke: What do you call someone who speaks many languages? Polylingual. Someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual. One language? American.

[GummyBearz]

17. I'm having trouble

Reconciling your point #1 with the personal anecdote you gave in point #6... it seems quite hypocritical to ask people respect a hijab, while it is fine for you to mock (and even "hate&quot a niqab...

edit for more clarification:

if my daughter was scared by a hijab and I used your words "...I made a point of answering loudly, "Yes, hon, it does look scary. Let's move."

I don't think you would be too thrilled

[Syzygy321]

21. Oh I know the "stickup" comment was WRONG,

VERY VERY WRONG!

and I am polite to faceless women even though I never know which one I'm saying hi to,

but I can hate niqabs as hard as I want. I am not gonna pretend that I support it. Yes, even though many of the women who do it are doing it voluntarily and even joyfully.

In a perfectly non-sexist religion - one that happened to have a weird belief that God likes facelessness for both genders - I wouldn't care so much. (But i'd still think they were jerks for scaring my child.)

Edit: you do know that a niqab is a piece of clothing, right?? You're offended that I hate some clothing??

[Syzygy321]

23. A hijab is cloth on head. It's only scary to idiots .

It doesn't interfere with a woman's ability to move in the world or communicate. Yes, it's based on sexist nonsense - but in reality it doesn't affect the wearer any more than a Sikh turban or kippah.

Me drawing a distinction isn't hypocrisy. I support abortion on demand - but not in the third trimester.

Another point you may not know: many Muslims do think the hijab is obligatory for women (which is nonsense; but that's what's pounded into them.). However even the ones who wear niqabs are perfectly aware that it is NOT obligatory. That's not why they wear it.

You go around without a face? You've gone too far.

[GummyBearz]

24. So you can draw a line between going too far or not,

and claim that the line you drew is the correct line.

You have a very strong sense of self righteousness, even arrogance, to claim your way is the right way. To know for fact that the line you drew is in the correct place, and a child who doesn't know any better is an "idiot", in your words.

Where did you learn such tolerance for others?

[Syzygy321]

26. spare me.

I am entitled to an opinion. You are entitled to disagree.

However: I am wrong and self-righteous and intolerant, whereas you are perfect.

(Um. Who's self-righteous, Kettle?)

You may now campaign to have me arrested for blasphemy. Whatev.

[GummyBearz]

28. Spare yourself

from the false analogies. I never claimed to know where to draw any lines regarding what deserves mockery and what does not. I believe in freedom of religion for everybody, as far as it doesn't infringe on anybody else's rights. And from what I can tell, wearing a niqab hasn't infringed on anybody else's rights.

Mock it if you want, just remember mocking religion is a 2 way street.

[Juicy_Bellows]

39. I too thought the end of the post was out of place with the rest. Nt.

[Nye Bevan]

20. "Things nobody, whoever they are, ever wants to hear from you".

There, fixed the title.

[Herman4747]

29. How About "Does Your Male Guardian, Your Mahram, know...

...that you're out alone?

[saturnsring]

33. Why is it ok for you to be murdered if you refuse to enter an arranged marriage

Or honor murder in general

[LeftyMom]

41. Arranged marriage is common in a lot of cultures.

I grew up in a majority SE Asian neighborhood and it was not uncommon at all for girls I went to school with to be married right out of high school to somebody their parents had picked out when they were little kids.

These were Vietnamese, Lao and Hmong families (and it wasn't religious thing, as they're not even all the same religion...) but arranged marriage is the norm or at least common in a lot of immigrant communities.

[Syzygy321]

44. I could try to answer that, but I am not sure you're interested

[saturnsring]

49. I am interested so please tell me .....

[Syzygy321]

50. Ok

The Official Muslim Answer:

Honor murders are wrong and against Islam; the Quran says taking life is awful. Honori murder is just a backward cultural practice. We swear.. Blah blah blah. Oh: and if you argue, and point out all the ways that imams and scholars and legislators foster it, we will call you an anti-Muslim bigot.

A better but more confusing answer:

Islam arose in Arabia and Arab culture swallowed Islam. It's impossible to say what's "culture" and what's "religion" in Islam. But wherever Islam goes, here's what you see:

- the man is head if household.
- his reputation in front of other men suffers if he can't keep his females sexually in line.
-- Reputation in front of other men is EVERYTHING.
-- Kill the female and your reputation is cleansed.

Those are the age-old Arab notions that snake through Islam.

American Muslim families rarely murder daughters - in fact, most adore their children. But mainstream islam does have every single building block that creates the environment that leads to murder. Its ideology - the modesty fetish, the disempowerment of women, the Quranic injunction that disobedient women can/should be punished, the general Sharia belief in punishment of immorality and execution for some "sex crimes" (eg gay sex, adultery) etc - builds the scaffold and the steps and hangs the rope.

And so, whole cultures (Arab, Pakistani, Afghan) have this notion buried deep in them. And not every female who steps out of line (or is raped or subject to false gossip) gets killed. But some do. And many get lesser punishments (beatings). And most have their lives curtailed and controlled by the endless need to fit in and not invite gossip. And I imagine that millions live in fear of their own fathers and brothers.

Recent survey in Jordan) - by Pew I think; you can Google it - had 1/3 teen boys agreeing that immoral girls should be killed.

That's Jordan. A "moderate" country.

And what i think sucks, is that "normal Muslims" - ones who give speeches and lead American mosques and ones who live on your street and mind their own business

- they all keep saying "these murders are against Islam! don't blame Islam!". And refuse to acknowledge or (gasp) try to fix the VERY OBVIOUS ideological basis that creates girl-murdering communities.

I am not sure if I have explained myself well.

Basically: it isn't islam's fault. Except that t pretty much is. And the worst thing is the refusal of all Muslims to face this fact (and the many other crappy facts about how islam has failed as a social and political aystem) and start reforming the religion.

Criticizing Islam is unthinkabke for most Muslims. Denying and self-deceiving comes much easier.

[saturnsring]

53. Sounds like it's not part of the religion but men have adapted it as part of the religion in

Order to control their women, or so other men can't be turned on by them. And if it happens then they ,the ladies, can be killed. When it happens some Muslims say it's part of their religion while some Muslims say it is not but neither side has done anything to reconcile the discrepancy.

[Syzygy321]

55. Well... Sort of... But

the religion is (a) the Quran and (b) stuff Mohammed said and did and (c) Sharia laws and interpretations developed in the middle ages and (d) the belief that (a) and (b) and (c) are pretty perfect and must not be messed with.

And (a) (b) and (c) all push pretty hard for legal m/f inequalities (different laws if you're a woman) , female inferiority and subordinance, wifely obedience, Allah loving the execution of people who have illicit sex, etc.

So it really IS the religion.

But the religion can change. I mean, Judaism isn't much different from Islam; it's just that most Jews don't care about laws, and even the super-extreme ones (Haredi etc) don't try to copy Solomon and have 400 wives.

So I have hope it will change, beciase someday (d) will change. And I think America might be the wellspring of that change.

[Texasgal]

31. Are you serious?

Can I just say..*ahem* Duh?

What a weird OP.

[MurrayDelph]

34. Is it OK to say "nice scarf"

as long as I mean it and don't have any sarcasm in my voice?

(my wife knits, so I have learned to appreciate nice-looking headwear)

[Syzygy321]

35. Yes please!

[nomorenomore08]

38. Thank you for this. I just wish it wasn't necessary. Why is common courtesy so hard for some people?

[LeftyMom]

40. #6 is also NOYFB

My kid was scared shitless of Spiderman, but I didn't expect cosplayers or trick or treaters to change.

Nobody owes you a view of their body.

[Syzygy321]

43. Of course they don't have to change, and the stickup

comment was crude.

But I don't have to approve of everyone's jackass choices.

Neither do you.

So when you meet a guy who keeps a second wife and child in his country of origin, or parents who are raising a all-American free-ranging son alongside a hijabi daughter who lives under strict modesty rules and punishments, or a man who refuses to shake your hand because your female touch might seduce/defile him, or someone who calmly tells you that God wants gays executed for their sins,

you do get to decide whether you respect these aspects of the religion. (Do you? And do you care about the girls and the gays and the kids getting hurt?)

Apply your liberal values and decide what's acceptable and harmless - and what isn't. Having "tolerance" for everything means standing for nothing.

Just my thoughts. Best wishes to you.

[LeftyMom]

45. My neighbor seemed put off that I was cutting our shared hedge in shorts

and exposing my sexy knees at him, so I do the part that I need to stand on his driveway to do on Fridays while he's at services.

I think all religions are dumb and I get a good laugh at his wife's hooker heels poking out under her abaya, but I'm also not going to be a dick to tidy, sober neighbors. I could use more of those!

FWIW, my town has a ton of absolutely batshit Russian Baptists. They're bigoted and violent and make the Phelps clan look like the Nuns on the Bus. They think everybody is infested with demons. They're more hostile to mental health care than Tom Cruise. I wouldn't trade my observant Pakistani neighbors for them for all the tea in China. Why the focus on Muslims? A lot of immigrant communities (and a lot of American subcultures) are fucking weird.

[Syzygy321]

48. I am troubled that you came out so strong

for a Muslim's right to cover her face,

but don't have any will to defend your own right to dress as you please without a weird creepy neighbor calling you indecent.

From your post: you think if you wear shorts in front of this fundentalist Muslim man, that's "being a dick to him"?

Isn't he a dick for daring (what friggn nerve!) to criticize YOUR body?

Your neighbors should be sober and tidy AND keep their nose out of your clothing choices. As you expect yourself to do for them.

[uppityperson]

57. I find it odd that you put refusing to shake hands with wanting gays executed in the same sentence

about respecting their religion. I find it odd that you also put refusing to shake hands in the OP as being something "bullshit inflict (ed) on the public".

[WinkyDink]

42. I hate PSA's.

[Romulox]

51. Re: 1--Where I live, the men and the boys wear shorts while the women wear full, floor-length niqab.

The girls generally wear something in between.

Nobody but grown women of the Islamic faith (and even then, most do not) cover themselves from head-to-toe against the heat.

[Cal Carpenter]

52. So you "made a point of answering loudly, "Yes, hon, it does look scary." "

And we're supposed to listen to *you* for advice on what not to say around American Muslim women?

What the fuck, man...



Signed,

Someone who actually hangs out with Muslims and knows them as people

[Syzygy321]

54. You're right - it was immature.

But answering my child - who had a valid point - seemed fair game to me. And I wasn't going to tell *her* she should accept facelessness as normal. That's not what I believe. That's not what I want my kids to believe.

On the whole, facelessness hurts women, even though it's often done sort of voluntarily. In that duality, I would compare it to FGM - which lots of women suffer through and then justify and then force on their daughters in the name of religion, just as it was forced on them. They say it's good; they say it should continue; they choose it semi-freely within the bounds of an unequal society - but to me it's not right; never will be.

I draw my lines. You are free to draw yours elsewhere. But if you go down the road of "we must always respect every aspect of the other guy's culture" (which of course is the cultire commanded by the strong and used against the weak)
- I don't agree with that. Maybe I've seen stuff you haven't.

You can feel different if you wish.

[uppityperson]

58. Thinking a woman who has her face covered is scary is a "valid point". Wow.

[Syzygy321]

59. My daughter was three. Yes: she was allowed to think it is scary

Last edited Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)

And did not deserve to be talked out of her perfectly valid feelings or harangued.

If your three year old was/is cool with masked women, that's fine.

You are trying very hard for moral superiority. Enjoy it. Bowing out now.

[uppityperson]

60. Wow. Who said anything about haranguing a 3 yr old?

"Yes, hon, it does look scary. Let's move."
"Let's go tell her hi so you can see she's just another person."

"answering my child - who had a valid point"
It is valid to be scared of women with covered faces in your opinion.

She didn't deserve to be shown this woman was just a woman, but instead a scary person? You insult me and insinuate I should not participate in the discussion. You claim "I get the feeling on this site that no one here actually hangs out with Muslims and knows them as people."

Gotcha.

[uppityperson]

56. Why did you tell your daughter a woman looks scary rather than taking the opportunity to educate her

Ah, I see. "I'm not obligated to support your bullshit when you inflict it on the public". Rather than educating your daughter and reassuring her that the woman wasn't scary, you chose to single her out as weird or the enemy.

This is odd since you also write "this OP is in the interest of cross-cultural understanding. Muslim women in hijabs are mostly kinda sick of being singled out as if they're weird or special or cute pets or the enemy. "

Did you know DU has a Muslim group? This is in response to your starting position of "I get the feeling on this site that no one here actually hangs out with Muslims and knows them as people". There are quite a few Muslims on DU, or friends, relatives of. I do not know of any of them who back your position of telling their children women with face veils are scary or bullshit.

This is an odd PSA.

[KamaAina]

61. "You don't *really* think God cares whether people eat a slice of bacon, do you?"

Reality check: Would you say that to a Jew?

[KamaAina]

62. I would if I could

but my favorite Muslim went off to college 45 miles north.

[Jamastiene]

63. One through five were at least agreeable

and sounded somewhat tolerant of Muslim women.

Six was the opposite of the stated purpose of the OP. If a woman wants to cover everything, she should have the right to without being mocked. There is a big difference between forcing someone to do it and someone choosing to do it. I don't see why you hate some and like others. It makes no sense. Not a very good PSA, imo.