On "police state" and "fascism"

[IDemo]

If one finds the terms "police state" and "fascism" to be overly hyperbolic or historically inaccurate, does that mean that they really do understand things better than many here? Or could it be it that their viewpoint is clouded; they're not paying attention; that perhaps the idea things have become much worse may have made them squeamish?

My opinion: if you're able to view threads such as this and believe that there's nothing overly wrong here in the good ol' USA, you've failed. That citizens are not being taken away in the night to be shot or buried alive isn't the dividing line between a civil nation and a police state. Yes, things have been worse in other places and times, but this is not a binary equation - it's a matter of degree. When the weight of evidence shows that out of control authoritarianism has become the new normal and that peaceful protest can easily get your head bloodied (with a smile!), we have crossed a very real line, and inertia tends to indicate the trend will not reverse itself anytime soon.

Screw the "police state" and fascism terminology if you feel they're just rhetorical over-reach. If they cause you offense, fine. But try not to use that as an excuse to ignore or downplay the very real threats to lawful, civil society that have been on public display all too often in our recent history.

[randome]

1. I have not experienced a police state or fascism personally.

But I know enough to know that I don't know enough. I would rather hear from people who DID live through those kind of upheavals.

Because the terms get bandied about here as often as Glen Beck has fits of 'Nazi Tourette's Syndrome'.

[backscatter712]

11. I have seen police excesses, which are systemic enough that I'd use the term "police state".

I saw people at demonstrations explicitly targeted for the police, locked up for weeks, for crimes they did not commit, because the police and the city government that employs said police didn't like their message.

Fascism, IMHO, is an imprecise term, which is why there's so much argument over whether a state is "fascist" or not. I prefer the term "authoritarian state," which I'd argue the U.S. is in imminent danger of becoming, as electoral politics are being manipulated by corporate money, our elected officials are openly defying the will of the people, and using the force of the state - the police and their truncheons and guns, to enforce their regime and quash dissent.

[sabrina 1]

15. I have read three books about the Nazi occupation of France and one about how it all

happened in Germany itself. They were all written by people who were there, as the situation developed.

Contrary to what we often think, it took years before it reached the point where people were being taken away in the middle of the night, and eventually, in broad daylight.

All of the authors make it clear that they never suspected, even as they stood up against what was happening, how far it could go. All thought that Hitler was just an 'aberration', crazy but that he would not last long. They could not have imagined, as some of them say, such evil even as it escalated and they began to fear for their own lives and those of their families.

Even then, they refused to believe in such evil. Some of them, not just the authors, but the many people they interviewed later who were there, wondered how they could have been so blind.

No police state develops overnight. As another recorder of that particular period of history explained when asked why the people, especially those who were more educated and aware, did nothing as each new law passed. 'We were uncomfortable with some of what was happening' he said. But 'it happened incrementally, there was not one major event that might have prompted a huge response, just a series of events, each one adding to the others'.

We are supposed to learn from history. Germany of course is not the only example where the people waited too long and as a result were too late to stop the police state from developing into the major tragedies they became.

I am just glad that here, people ARE standing up, at this stage, before it is too late. Because what I have learned the more I read of history, that in none of the cases that went too far, are the people any different that we are. That no country is immune from the threat, that there are people here who would welcome a police state and join it, as others throughout history have done. Ordinary people. No country is safe from becoming a police state. The Founding Fathers understood that, which is why they wrote the Constitution. It would be foolish to think it could not happen here.

[Major Hogwash]

20. It only took 2 years for Hitler to build his Nazi state.

No, it didn't take many years for him to build Germany into a fascist state.
The United States is not a police state.

[sabrina 1]

22. I don't believe I said the US was a police state.

And Hitler was trying since approx. 1923 to achieve the power he eventually got.

Circumstances at that time, the aftermath of the First World War, eg, economic collapse, and then a few other major events which were used by him, and should be instructive in order to avoid any chance of a repeat of what happened there, helped him to gain further control of Germany. Not to mention he was ruthless. The laws that were passed without much opposition, gave him all the power he needed to reach the zenith of his disastrous 'career'.

Germany was not a police state either until it was. No country should ever assume that it could not happen to them. The Founding Fathers certainly didn't, familiar as they were with human nature and in their time, monarchies, empires and the temptation of power and how dangerous it would be to ever allow power to be concentrated in one person or one party.

As Franklin said after signing the Constitution when asked what they had done that day 'we have given you a Constitution, it is up to you to protect it'. Or words to that effect. There will always be those in every generation who will abuse power. So far we have been lucky. But it's only been a few decades since Europe was threatened with being taken over by totalitarians. There hasn't been much time throughout history, where there has been peace for long periods of time. This democracy has lasted, so far, longer than most. But only because I believe people have been diligent about improving it and about protecting it.

And if you are saying we should all just relax, especially after eight years of Bush and his Patriot Act and nationalism and 'crusades' around the world, then I disagree.

[Lint Head]

2. The road to fascism is taken in small steps. The last step is to feel the heavy heel of the

hobnailed boot on one's neck without recourse. Once the boot is on the neck for good there is nothing to do but to wait for someone to rescue you. The better course is to fight it from the beginning and prevent it from totally consuming society. We must remember that it is not just for us today to fight fascism but to make sure our fellow human beings do not have to suffer under it's smothering rule.

People who say there is no police state or fascism on the rise remind me of someone seeing the tip of an iceberg and thinking it's just the right size ice cube for a cold drink.

[SoutherDem]

3. I agree it is overly hyperbolic and historically inaccurate

We have nothing like a police state nor fascism. We also hear how Obama is turning America into a socialistic society. Both thoughts are far from the truth. But what's truth got to do with it?

Truth is a belief. We need to start dealing with facts.

[leveymg]

5. Just because they don't let you know they're reading your email, doesn't mean you're not being

watched along with the rest of us. http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/20/whistleblower_the_nsa_is_lying_us

"National Security Agency whistleblower William Binney reveals he believes domestic surveillance has become more expansive under President Obama than President George W. Bush. He estimates the NSA has assembled 20 trillion 'transactions' — phone calls, emails and other forms of data — from Americans. This likely includes copies of almost all of the emails sent and received from most people living in the United States. Binney talks about Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act and challenges NSA Director Keith Alexander's assertion that the NSA is not intercepting information about U.S. citizens."

That may not be a problem for some people.

[kenny blankenship]

10. It's not a Police State - it's a Polite State

Old style police states were intrusive, crude and heavy handed in their methods - and they usually never lasted very long because of it. We are more sophisticated now and know how to police the conscience of the population without interrupting the appearance of normal everyday life. Where others failed to deliver on their boastful promises of establishing a new order to last a thousand years, we shall succeed.

[leveymg]

17. "Friendly Fascism" - that's a great book by Bertham Gross from the Reagan era. Hit it spot-on.

So did George Carlin: fascism in America: "it won't be wearing jackboots but sneakers with lights in them and (Michael Jordan) tee shirts...."

[IDemo]

6. Case in point here

You've essentially okayed the actions of police in Chicago, Oakland and elsewhere simply because the labels don't fit your definition.

If fascism means that corporations and government have merged powers, then ALEC, Citizens United and the revolving door between Congress and the banking/finance/lobbying sector must mean something.

That the nation's many security agencies have written off the Constitution to place citizens under surveillance, that peaceful protest is often treated in the same manner that one would expect in a Third World dictatorship, are beyond 'abusive'. They're the signature moves of power-mad authority.

[99th_Monkey]

16. +100 Thank you

for reminding ourselves that the very definition of "fascism", as I've always
understood it, is that merger of corporate and government power.

How anyone can watch what goes on in DC and still not feel we're quickly
becoming the very epitome of fascism is beyond me.

[davekriss]

7. OK, just the facts then

We have the largest prison population - both in terms of rate and number - on the face of the earth. True, to this point, it is mostly due to the political "War on Drugs", but nevertheless we lead the world in inmates.

We imprison 730 per 100,000, whereas (for example) China imprisons around 160 per. In absolute numbers we imprison about 2.4 million people, while China imprisons about 1.6 million (all data from www.prisonstudies.org).

Then there are the asset seizure laws. A denizen of the lower economic rungs? Then you are at serious risk of having your car or house taken from you. To get them back (at least in one state I consulted to a long time back), just to get a hearing you have to post 10% of their value. Don't have that 10%? You lose.

When do we get to call it a Police State?

[DeSwiss]

14. Loss of habeas corpus, the Executive branch claiming it has a right to assassinate.....

...US citizens without due process. The rendition of US citizens and of others without a warrant or a declaration of war. The spying upon our mail, email and phone calls without any right or warrant. The transferring and socializing of private losses into the public debt.

If these aren't facts, then what do you call it?

- I suppose you're waiting for the sound track before you'll believe. Well then here ya go........

[KG]

4. this a 'uniquely american' form of police state. and it's got to do with more than

protesters getting roughed up.

[kenny blankenship]

8. it's not a police state unless you just insist on exercising your rights

Such a lot of complaint about nothing! Most people will never even see the inside of a police van or a detention center. As long as they keep going to work and shopping and keep their eyes front, looking down at where their feet are going, they may never notice anything amiss or police state-y or thuggish going on around them. Unless perhaps their name gets confused with the name of an evil-doer. Then, oh yeah, they're in for the surprise of their lives. But usually a mistake like that will get corrected before loss of life or limb occurs. And it's no harm done.

The Constitution may still say you have a right to free speech and to petition and to assemble and whatever, but it doesn't mean the authorities aren't allowed to make exercising those rights very costly to you and your family. Carrot or stick. Flat screen TVs or stress positions. Caviar or pepper spray. Your choice.

Life could be so pleasant if we'd all observe that one simple Golden Rule: Those who make trouble, or who fit the profile of someone who makes trouble, are going to be dealt with harshly. Those who don't incur the suspicion or wrath of the authorities shouldn't concern themselves with the fate of those who do, or try to "get involved".

Stick to exercising your right to accumulate material wealth without limits (or if you're unable to accumulate anything, just be a good loser about it) and you'll find it's the friendliest police state ever.

[midnight]

9. This is a polite way to remind those who rather not have their weddings and such interrupted by those

without jobs, food, educational funds to be respectful of these hard won rights.... Too many of our ancestors died giving us these rights, and just because they cause an inconvenience, embarrassment or whatever else doesn't mean our police force should come in and cause harm....

[DeSwiss]

12. K&R

[center]

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such a twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air -- however slight -- lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."

~Justice William O. Douglas

[/center]

[coalition_unwilling]

18. Why are you quoting a Commie

like Douglas?

(in case it's needed)

[DeSwiss]

23. That's my kinda Commie!!!

- I wished we could have cloned him and stack the whole damned SCOTUS with him!!!

[wickerwoman]

13. Also "police states" look very different in their infancy, youth and mature forms.

I've lived in a mature police state which looked nothing like the pictures from Chicago because *nobody* would have dared been on the street protesting like that in the first place.

That doesn't mean that that thread doesn't capture an early stage of a police state, as you point out.

The point is that people shouldn't get their head bashed in for camping in a park or walking down a street with a sign. When they do, it is a symptom of a society about to go to a very, very dark place.

[coalition_unwilling]

19. Emphatic K&R! A magisterial OP - n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

21. But trying to downplay reality is their only option. We've just fallen too far

to try to the old "ignore what you see and do as I say" strategy that worked for so long. Look @ GD today, half a dozen authoritarians working overtime trying to prop up the illusion and congratulate each other over and over. It's kind of silly when you look a little more closely.

(I find the attempts to invoke Gandhi and MLK to justify oppression particularly amusing)