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[Agschmid]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Agschmid) on Sun Sep 27, 2015, 12:22 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Indydem]

1. So what you are saying...

Is that if the laws on the books were enforced, the guns getting to criminals would drop by a huge percentage? Maybe by as much as 90%?!

Then why don't we start enforcing the laws?!?!?!

[sharp_stick]

3. See message below. n/t

[MohRokTah]

9. The reason the laws are not enforced goes back to the NRA.

The NRA lobbies Congress to effectively undercut all BATF action at the behest of gun manufacturers.

In other words, those who manufacture the guns used in crime pay the NRA to lobby Congress to insure there is not enough money to stop those lucrative gun sales that end up being used to commit crimes.

[Martin Eden]

21. Existing laws are insufficient, and not universal

To effectively reduce straw purchases, every gun would have to be registered to the owner and every sale (including private sales) would have to be like an automotive title trasfer. Owners must report the loss or theft of a gun, or be held criminally liable when that gun is uded in a crime by someone else.

If the above was universally applied & enforced, I believe obtaining guns would be much more difficult for criminals.

[sharp_stick]

2. One effective method

would be to allow the ATF to actually do their jobs. Congress for years, at the bidding of the NRA of course, has stymied and stalled any ATF action.

They haven't been allowed a headcount increase in years, they aren't allowed to seize records from gun stores - if they want to check records they have to sit in the store and do it...Great short of people and now two or three have to spend hours or days hanging out in the back room of a gun shop going over records.

[Wellstone ruled]

5. But but it is their Second

Amendment Right to do this cause Obama is going to take their guns. Went to a flea Market yesterday,long guns and hand guns for sale at several tables. And you knew no one is running back grounds. Ask one old timer if he had any concerns,naw cause it's my right to sell these and besides ain't going to let some liberal take my guns. All you need to know is were when and what time these Flea Markets happen and you can purchase all the guns you want,just bring cash.

[hack89]

11. Private sales that do not cross state lines are not covered by the Brady Act

it is purely a state issue and not a federal issue. 17 states ( including mine) require background checks on all gun sales.

[hack89]

17. Varies. High in VT and ME

in the middle for NH and low for RI, MA and CT.

http://qz.com/437015/mapped-the-us-states-with-the-most-gun-owners-and-most-gun-deaths/

[PotatoChip]

19. Here you go. Hope this helps.

http://qz.com/437015/mapped-the-us-states-with-the-most-gun-owners-and-most-gun-deaths/

[nichomachus]

20. Pretty closely tracks

The map of places where I'd prefer the yahoos didn't have guns.

[Eleanors38]

27. Yes, Florida does have a lower rate than Vermont.

[nichomachus]

41. Whatever that means

[Eleanors38]

45. Texas, too.

[nichomachus]

46. Still not making any sense

we need more than random words and phrases

[beevul]

43. Interesting map. How does it square with this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172149251

[PotatoChip]

44. You might want to ask your question of the poster I got the link from. ^(A couple of posts up)^

That person is apparently a frequent poster in the gun forum based oh his/her profile.

I stay out of there for a reason.

[Eleanors38]

47. What do you think of the 80-megaton air burst over Chicago?

A lot of folks don't post in the Gungeon because their arguments Will be joined; a lot do if they want to consider why murder rates and childhood accidental gun deaths have fallen. Open argument is welcome, unlike in other groups.

And if the gun discussion isnin GD, the arguments Will be joined here, too.

[PotatoChip]

48. Not interested. But thanks for the invite. (nt)

[beevul]

51. Not just that, but the lack of substantial gun violence in the upper center...

Not just that, but the lack of substantial gun violence in the upper center of the map, where that deep pink 5 state bloc is, which all have those loose gun laws we continually hear about.

I rather figured nobody wanted to talk about it.

[Wellstone ruled]

16. Bingo,did not mention that.

And what you here on Fox News and ABC,NBC is the criminals steal their guns and have all the guns. Bullcrap! Stood back and watched some of these sales yesterday and they were not all local buys. One dude was parked next to us in the lot,and his License plate was from a State that requires Back Ground Checks. If you grew up in any Rural Area of the Midwest,everyone trusts most people and here in lies the propeller. Most of these sales are I got the Money and I'am out of here.

[hack89]

7. Quadruple the ATF's budget and crack down on illegal gun sales. nt

[sharp_stick]

8. Makes sense

it's too bad Congress won't allow a budget or headcount increase.

[MohRokTah]

10. Because any Congressperson who votes in favor of doing so gets a failing grade from the NRA

The gun manufacturers NEED those illegal gun sales from the FFLs.

[sharp_stick]

13. Absolutely

now that they've sold about as many as they can to survivalists and anti-Obama crackpots the sales are lagging...Time to get them back into the hands of gangs and thieves.

[Lizzie Poppet]

12. Straw purchasers need to be severely punished.

It's rare for a person to end up in prohibited status for possession of firearms without there being a damn good reason. Providing a weapon to such persons is the very definition of recklessness. I have no problem with throwing the book at them.

[gratuitous]

22. Perhaps a new law or two?

If you buy a gun for someone who can't buy one for himself, you're equally guilty of whatever crime he goes on to commit with the gun. If you own a gun and don't properly secure it and it gets stolen, you're on the hook for whatever crime your stolen weapon goes on to participate in (you're off the hook if you report the weapon stolen within 24 hours).

That is, if we are serious about letting the responsible gun owners freely exercise their rights while holding the irresponsible ones accountable for their irresponsibility. I'm guessing that neither of these suggestions would be acceptable to the responsible gun owners for some reason.

[gratuitous]

54. What's to prove?

The person who can't have a firearm gets it from you, by gift or sale. He goes out and knocks over a liquor store, killing the clerk in the process and is charged with felony murder. You knew or should have known that the person you gave or sold the gun to wasn't supposed to have (convicted felon or whatever). Wouldn't the possibility of being charged along with the perpetrator for his felony murder be incentive enough for you to do a background check even without a law requiring you to do so?

Or are you saying that gun owners need a lot more regulation than they're currently under so that society can be safer from irresponsible gun sales? Which was the original point I was making.

[jeff47]

57. That you were the source of the gun.

The prohibited guy "knocks over a liquor store" and a gun is recovered. There's nothing that ties the gun to you because there's no registration program.

[jeff47]

63. You can't make that assumption.

We are assuming that the gun got linked back to the initial buyer somehow.

How?

Without some sort of registration program, we find the buyer by what? Divining rod? Theoretically the gun store may have some accurate paperwork, but you can't guarantee that.

[Lizzie Poppet]

24. That could work.

Existing laws make straw purchases a felony crime, but apparently that's insufficient (although the problem could be lack of enforcement). This is a serious problem, since it's a major vector of firearms to criminals, so action needs to be taken.

I consider myself a "responsible gun owner," and I definitely think some changes to the law or to enforcement of existing laws are badly needed to address the straw purchase problem. I'm also a supporter of legally mandating secure firearms storage for similar reasons. The problems this country is having with guns are the result of the actions of an extremely small minority of gun owners, the majority of which are illegally possessing their weapons. It benefits everyone, responsible gun owners not least of all, to stem the flow of weapons to these "bad actors."

[Eleanors38]

49. So, what is the significance of "designed to kill?"

[melm00se]

37. There are lots of things that

are subsidized by taxes that I wish weren't but they are so I suck up and deal with it.

[melm00se]

39. defense spending

a lot of tax dollars go to defense spending which compromises a whole lot of "devices designed to kill".

[Eleanors38]

52. "prohibitive, but that's the point." Another poll tax argument...

but maybe a subsidy.

I advocate grants-in-aid to states to beef up school security. The money could be used to provide hard points, security for ingress, more police, training armed staff, etc. This could cost several billion, but might be worth it. What do you think?

[Eleanors38]

29. Tens of millions of trigger/action locks have been distributed free

through Project Childsafe. This might explain the precipitous decrease in childhood deaths via gun accidents.

I'm not sure of the support you would get from some about the distribution of free safes, but I certainly would take advantage of that.

I would like to see a budget increase in BATFE's budget, and an improvement in that creaky bureaucracy. I would also like somenform of universal BG checks. Currently, the gun culture war has reached such a state that the. NRA and others can play wackamole with its opposition, and are in no mood to "give a inch."

I think the childhood accident rate AND safer storage to prevent theft would benefit by Mainstreaming the movement toward those goals. Perhaps a Super Bowl ad?

[branford]

34. BATFE has been a hot mess for decades, and throwing more money at it will not fix

the ingrained institutional problems. It should be disbanded forthwith and its areas of responsibility transferred to the FBI. It would eliminate duplicative and overlapping jurisdiction and save money, and at least the FBI has some demonstrated level of competence and public trust.

Safe storage laws are great in theory, but often the proposals are nothing more than mandates that define "safe" as effectively "inoperable" (e.g., gun disassembled and locked with ammunition stored in separated location). If a gun must stored so "safely" that it cannot be quickly used for self-defense, not only will such a law not receive support, but will likely be unconstitutional under Heller and McDonald.

UBC laws suffer similar problems. They mostly are disguised universal registration schemes designed simply to make firearm ownership and purchase more burdensome and expensive. It's the reason why gun control groups generally oppose simple suggestions such as opening up the NICS system to private citizens.

Simply, many "gun safety" proposals lack support because any detailed reading reveals they have nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with control and "changing gun culture." Apart from the lack of trust between the gun rights and control partisans, gun control advocates have truly mastered making the perfect the enemy of the good.

[Eleanors38]

55. I agree with your arguments, the BATFE probably ought to be folded...

into the FBI.

It is difficult to argue for gun safes and lock boxes -- all worthy deterrents to accidents and theft -- for the very reasons you outline: Extremist controllers will no doubt pile on my regs, costs, specified features, etc. to create de facto taxes to the individual RKBA. I advocate for these measures, but am very hesitant to propose laws when they will NO DOUBT be used to continue a campaign of prohibition, backed by criminal penalties. Frankly, controller/banner extremism and the NRA's wackamole responses has poured concrete down the well.

So I support mainstreaming the discussion of gun safety and security through popular media. The controller extremists will no doubt resist this as an attempt to put gun-ownership in a positive light -- something they Cannot culturally abide -- but it will be easier to deal with NGOs than with established government bureaus where these extremists still have choke holds on meaningful action, and are embarrassingly easy targets for the NRA.

The Super Bowl ad promoting gun safety has been attempted, I believe, but thwarted, oddly enough.

[Lee-Lee]

32. I dealt with straw purchasers as a deputy.

I took a perfect case, with a confession of a straw purchase to the BATFE.

They interviewed the guilty party to see if they could use her as an informant on anything bigger, didn't think they could, and let her go. Both the BATFE and US Astorney said they didn't want to waste time on Suzy Trailer Trash who just lied on a form.

Its a Federal law, so I had no authority to do anything other than tell the Feds.

They don't enforce it.

Hell, they didn't even prosecute the girlfriend who bought the guns for the Columbine shooters.

They also only follow up on cases where someone gets denied in a background check in 2-3% of cases. And for a person to get denied that means they filled out the form 4473 saying they are legal to purchase- under penalty of perjury- and they were not. That's a felony in itself. So this person is already ineligible to own a gun, just tried to buy one an a committed a felony while doing it, they have hard proof of the form with his signature on the form-
And the BATF and FBI don't do squat, leaving that felon to walk out the door and try illegal means...

[branford]

35. Complain to the Obama Justice Department.

It's not the NRA or gun rights advocates who oppose or are stopping such prosecutions.

[jberryhill]

53. No, it is their funded politicians who control the purse strings

Could you remind me again who is the last appointed head of the BATF?

That agency hasn't even had a director in ages, because the NRA funded Congresscritters will not even allow an appointment to get anywhere near confirmation.

It's a great game.

The NRA says "They are not enforcing the laws" and does everything they can to make sure the laws aren't enforced.

[branford]

60. Bull. The BATFE does not determine who is prosecuted for potential crimes.

That is entirely the jurisdiction of the various United States Attorneys' Offices throughout the country, generally in coordination with the DOJ in Washington, and they all are very well funded by Congress.

Simply, most US Attorneys prefer to direct their resources to more pr-friendly, sexier and generally much larger drug, organized crime, and terrorism cases, rather than small time straw-buying charges that wouldn't make the nightly news.

The NRA is not some omniscient and omnipotent boogeyman, and not all inconvenient and inexcusable failings by the government concerning gun control and enforcement can be laid at their feet.

[jberryhill]

61. Can you remind me who is the BATF director?

Thanks in advance.

[branford]

62. The Acting ATF Director is Thomas E. Brandon, he was chosen by President Obama,

has all the legal power and authority of a confirmed director, and his credentials are quite impressive, although it's completely irrelevant to the issue.

https://www.atf.gov/about/executive-staff

Now, would you kindly address my points concerning who actually determines who's prosecuted for potential federal firearm crimes, and how the NRA purportedly prevents the Obama Justice Department and various Attorneys General nominated by this Democratic administration and confirmed by the Senate from prosecuting straw purchasers?

[jberryhill]

64. Acting director -

...and is that his only position?

[GGJohn]

65. He has all the powers of the permanent director,

so what's your point?

[Lee-Lee]

42. I agree- the DOJ doesn't. It's politics

Your local US Attorney is a political appointee in a political world.

They want headlines, press conferences, and the spotlight. Their career needs it.

Your head agents in local BATFE offices are the same way- an 18 month operation to take down a biker gang that lands 20 arrests is sexy and makes headlines and gets them promoted. 18 months using the same manpower to convict 75 illegal gun purchases or attempted ones by low level nobodies isn't sexy, nobody notices.

[Eleanors38]

56. Reminds me of a public transit consultant who explained why Billions are

spent on limited, ineffective metropolitan rail service.

(paraphrase)

When we meet in convention, nobody gets awards for running a top-flight bus system.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. Multiply BATF and state/local agency enforcement dollars by 10

prioritize prosecution for a 10 year period.

To assist with enforcement, get gun registration numbers on all future guns, and register all guns like we register cars. Transfers (whether sale or gift) must be registered as well.

The reason the NRA fights enforcement like hell is that they know straw purchases and illegal purchases are part of the business model for all their constituents, from manufacture to individual owner. If Ford's profit relied on some significant percentage of stolen cars each year, you'd see attacks on enforcement capabilities of auto theft as well.

[hunter]

50. It depends where you live.

Wal-Mart doesn't sell guns or ammunition where I am, and the cops do not like gun sellers of any kind because most of them are associated with gangs, whatever flavor gang a gun fetishist might identify with.

The front door of my local 24-7 grocery store has "No Firearms" signs, and the night manager (who I suspect is a very friendly vampire of the "Twilight" sort would probably stick any gun you brought into his domain far enough up your ass that you'd gag on it in your throat, just before he knocked you unconscious with a big can of beans or a gallon of milk and called the police.

The most remarkable thing about guns is that people with the most extreme gun fetishes tend to live in otherwise more or less safe communities where most of the people killed by guns shoot themselves, kill others in "domestic disputes," and suffer many "child and mentally ill person" gun tragedies.