Does anyone else have a problem with children saying the Pledge of Allegiance?

[white_wolf]

I don't know if it's still being done now, but when I was in highschool in 08 the Pledge was still said daily over the intercom and when I was elementary school the teachers would lead the class. Does anyone else have a problem with it? Children pledging their allegiance to the state before they are even old enough to understand what they are saying seems like a bad thing to do. It seems like it could foster strong and sometimes dangerous nationalist sentiment in later years. I know it isn't actually mandatory in schools, but you aren't ever told you don't have to do it and the pressure to conform is strong.

[Posteritatis]

1. I find the idea of daily loyalty oaths silly at best at any age. (nt)

[lamp_shade]

2. Nope. I have no problem at all with it.

[earthside]

3. I must have recited the Pledge a gillion times ...

... in school.

A lot of good it did.

I am most decidedly not a U.S.A. nationalist or a super-patriot in any way, shape or form.

Now, my preference is for children not saying the Pledge of Allegiance, and even more for schools to make clear that reciting it is a matter of personal preference and that nothing negative should be drawn from folks who choose not to say the Pledge.

But, in the end, I'm not so sure it matters much.

By the way, I also watched a lot of 'Combat!' and 'Rat Patrol' on TV when I was young ... I must have killed another gillion imaginary Germans when I was little, too. And now, I'm a dedicated anti-war activist. So, one can never tell how a child will turn out by what they are expected to do when in their formative years.

[white_wolf]

11. Good post.

I don't really think it will cause children to grow up to be nationalists. I just find the whole concept of children pledging loyalty to the State to the kind of creepy.

[left on green only]

23. +1 Your post took the words right out of my mouth and left me breathless.

The only thing that I can add is that I can remember in later school years, after I started to become aware of all of the hypocrisy that was prevalent in our country, how I used to just pantomime and lip sync the act every morning. In my own cynical way, I figured that it was the best thing to do in order to fit in with the hypocrisy that was being shoved down my throat as a part of my education.

[ejpoeta]

4. they still do it where my kids go to school. It feels weird

but I have never said anything.

[bluestate10]

5. No. nt

[Happyhippychick]

6. I do.

It feels wrong and indoctrinating, for lack of a better word. I hate it.

[Warpy]

7. I think daily loyalty oaths from children are creepy

[southernyankeebelle]

8. I remember in elementary school saying the pledge in catholic school. We didn't even say

"under god" because it wasn't in the pledge at the time. I lived on military bases overseas and in school we always said the pledge. Why even in the movies (on base) you had to stand up before the movie started and listen to the Stars Bangle Banner play then we sit down and watch the movie. I don't know if they still do it today. I doubt it. It's kind of sad really because that is one thing that unites the country.

[Codeine]

12. "Star Spangled Banner," actually.

That's the funny thing about these repetition exercises that begin before we're old enough to know what we're saying -- they become meaningless as all hell and we usually have half the words wrong.

[white_wolf]

15. I still don't know what the Star Spangled Banner says.

I can never understand it when it's sung out loud. I don't know why.

[Art_from_Ark]

48. The Star Spangled Banner is based on a poem

written after the Battle of Baltimore (1814), by Francis Scott Key, who witnessed the bombardment of the American Fort McHenry from aboard a British ship. Basically, the first verse of the poem states that the American flag over the fort that Key had seen as twilight fell was lit up by the bombs coming from the British ships during the night, and then Key asks if the flag is still flying, metaphorically, over the country.

[Javaman]

71. And set to the tune of an old English drinking song. :) nt

[Art_from_Ark]

72. I must have read the name of that drinking song 100 times or more

but I still can't remember it

[hifiguy]

74. "To Anacreon in Heaven"`

is the old English university drinking song.

[Art_from_Ark]

77. Maybe this time I'll remember it

The 101st time is a charm?

[southernyankeebelle]

34. I just misspelled it sorry. But it meant something to me and was always happy to say them. I

come from a military environment growing up. My dad and my husband both retired from the military along with my father-in-law. I never mind saying that because my dad was in WWII, Korea and VN before the built up. He was wounded in WWII. I think saying the pledge honors him and his fellow soldiers who died. I feel it unite the country.

[Codeine]

9. I think it's stupid and archaic.

That said, the little buggers don't have a single clue what they're saying or what it means, so the oath has no significance whatsoever in their minds. Perhaps by making it a mindless exercise in robotic mantra-ism all the harm is sort of washed out?

[uppityperson]

19. That is my take on it also. Thanks.

Hi Codeine.

[whathehell]

25. Maybe..

but I fail to see where "all the harm is" in it. .

I would bet other nations have similar types of "pledges"

My father stood in HIS OWN LIVING Room when the Star Spangled

Banner played, and he was an ass-kicking union organizing FDR Dem!

[Raine]

31. Yup, I said it thousands of times in school and it was meaningless gibberish

it didn't effect my ability to think for myself.

[RiffRandell]

37. I agree.

I think most kids just zone out during it anyway. I know I did.

[GoneOffShore]

10. Not in favor of it.

Or at political events or sporting events.

It's creepy. Didn't used to think so, but do now.

I will not recite it, I will not sing the Star Spangled Banner and I will not stand for "God Bless America".

[Codeine]

14. I stand for the national anthem, but I don't sing.

It's not an easy song to sing, really. It would be more disrespectful for me to mangle it than it is for me to stay quiet.

The hand-on-heart thing is goofy -- won't do that either.

[greytdemocrat]

13. Commie!!!!

[Cali_Democrat]

16. I have a big problem with it

It reeks of extreme nationalism/jingoism. Plus, the kids don't have much of a choice. They will be ostracized if they refuse.

[SoutherDem]

17. Honestly

I didn't know why or what I was really saying. I didn't even think of what the words meant until I was an adult.

I can't say I have a problem with it but it is a bit nationalistic and we do have a larger number of non-americans in our school now than when I was in school.

Also the under god part was added in either 1954 or 56, when publicly admitting you were an atheist might get you beat up as quick as admitting you were gay. For an atheist this might present a problem.

As to voluntary? Volunteering is helping hand out something for the teacher. To be told the pledge would be voluntary is asking for ridicule from the child of a right winger when someone choses not to do so.

It might be time to reconsider the pledge in school beyond part of history.

[LaydeeBug]

18. Call them on it when they bring this shit up...CALL THEM ON IT HARD.

Tell them to video the school in question's morning announcements and FUCKING PROVE THEY ARE NOT SAYING THE PLEDGE.

It is as fake an outrage as the welfare queen, and every bit as dangerous.

[Arugula Latte]

20. We tell our kids that they should stand for it, but they don't have to say it.

We don't believe in god, and I find it ridiculous that that is forced down kids' throats at public schools. "Liberty and justice for all" is a complete joke. It's more like "liberty and justice for those who can buy it." I think the pledge is ridiculous. It's worshiping a rectangle of material and it teaches children to not question, just go along, put up and shut up -- the exact opposite of our supposed "democratic" ideals.

[Enrique]

21. i think it's good for kids to know what our country stands for

hopefully they will be upset when it falls short. Hopefully when they see some injustice, they will think, hey what about liberty and justice for all?

[abelenkpe]

22. Every time I hear the pledge I think of this:

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.

Every time I watch star trek I remember the pledge:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

[RZM]

80. It makes me think of prayers. Here's my customized hybrid version

'I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name. Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is heaven, with liberty and justice for all. Amen.'

[bluestateguy]

24. No, as long as it is very truly voluntary to participate

and not just voluntary in name only.

In other words, none of this: "oh, OK, little Johnny, you can be an un-American, unpatriotic, communist, terrorist loving little shit and NOT show your love for our country. While we say the Pledge of Allegience, you can go stand in the corner."

[Raine]

26. No, I had to say it and didn't make me some

nationalistic brainwashed RW tool.

[rug]

27. My daughter stopped saying it in third grade.

[Skip Intro]

28. Nope.

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. Nnnnnope.

Not at all. Neither does The President.

"In order to recognize the American spirit of loyalty and the sacrifices that so many have made for our Nation, the Congress, by Public Law 85-529 as amended, has designated May 1 of each year as "Loyalty Day." On this day, let us reaffirm our allegiance to the United States of America, our Constitution, and our founding values.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2012, as Loyalty Day. This Loyalty Day, I call upon all the people of the United States to join in support of this national observance, whether by displaying the flag of the United States or pledging allegiance to the Republic for which it stands.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this first day of May, in the year of our Lord two thousand twelve, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-sixth."

[white_wolf]

33. Loyalty Day is such bullshit.

It's May Day,I international Worker's Day, not Loyalty Day.

[whathehell]

35. Tell it to Barack.

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. Ze Google. Try it zometime.

Then write The President and tell him how you feel.

May 1. Loyalty Day, as proclaimed by President Barack Obama.

Learn it. Live it. Love it.

[white_wolf]

39. It's still bullshit.

May Day is a lot older. Besides if the President was listening to my advice, I would have far more important issues to discus with him than a holidays. However, since I'm not a millionaire donor I'm not on the list of people he goes to for policy advice.

[whathehell]

41. Sez you...

Sorry 'bout you not being one of those "millionaire donors".

[daaron]

63. Yeah. Fuck that holiday. nt

[treestar]

65. I missed that

Guess I'm a traitor now!

[whathehell]

30. Nope.

For all the fuss being raised by some here, do we really

imagine other countries don't have similar declarations?

[Throd]

32. No.

[independentpiney]

38. I was suspended in 6th grade for refusing to say the pledge in 1968

because of the 'under god' and 'liberty and justice for all' parts. The first of a series of problems I had with that school administration. My parents were pretty supportive of me but in hindsight should have probably sued the district for some of the things they tried.

[yellowcanine]

60. My daughter all on her own stayed seated during the pledge.

The teacher tried to make her stand - practically begged her to because it embarrassed her. But she held firm and the Principal informed the teacher that she had the right to stay seated.

[Ship of Fools]

40. I think I was in the 4th grade

when I began to refuse to recite it. I didn't know why then, but
I well remember feeling VERY uncomfortable reciting, en masse,
"One nation, under God."

[CK_John]

42. Doing away with the pledge will prompt a call for the Lord's Prayer

or Hail Mary's.

I believe most ed theory believes in a consistent mantra to start the school day and it gives the kids comfort in a world of caucus.

[LeftofObama]

43. I've never understood the need to say it EVERY F'N DAY!

Did something happen between yesterday morning and this morning that made people have to re-recite the pledge of allegiance? I figure if I say it once and I don't change my mind or pledge allegiance to another country in the meantime, what the heck is the point in saying it again?

Sorry for the rant. It's just something I've always wondered about.

[Nye Bevan]

44. No. And complaining about it is a big vote loser. (nt)

[TBF]

45. I personally don't care for it -

but have never told my kids not to do it because it's bad enough living in Texas as it is.

They say the both the Pledge of Allegiance to the US and Texas every day.

[The2ndWheel]

46. If children weren't, the state wouldn't be doing its job

It's brand loyalty. Any organized effort that plans on surviving over the long term has to nurture that, especially with children, and the younger the better.

[surrealAmerican]

47. The whole idea of small children reciting something they don't understand ...

... has always bothered me. It seems like the antithesis of what should happen in school. Once they are old enough to understand it, it's coercive even when not technically required.


That said, it is not particularly influential to the children who recite it. When I was in school (this was the late 60's and 70's), they had us recite the pledge, the creed, and sing the national anthem. Apart from it being a waste of time, and painful to listen to (in the case of the anthem), we tended to take no message at all from any of it.

[RedCappedBandit]

49. It's ridiculous

and I stopped reciting it the moment I finally thought about what it actually was they wanted me to say.

[hack89]

50. No. nt

[MadrasT]

51. Yes I always thought it was creepy.

And I stopped reciting it in the 3rd grade.

Loyalty oaths are B.S.

[Egalitarian Thug]

52. I'm so old I had a teacher that refused to say the, under God, phrase that

was inserted by the crazies during their last great uprising in the 50's.

I'm not sure whether the Pledge is a good idea or not. Surely, instilling a sense of pride in the ideals of and community within the U.S. is a good thing, but as pointed out elsewhere, it is a short trip from there to the jingoistic nationalism that invariably leads us down roads better left untraveled.

[aikoaiko]

54. I'm fine with my 7 yr old pledging to keep the nation whole, and liberty and justice for all.

I like the original best:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Someday I'll explain to my son that some people consider God a real entity, but I consider it a cultural metaphor.

Common version:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The only part I don't like is the under God part.

[bemildred]

55. I would prefer that the government daily pledge its allegiance to our children. nt

[obamanut2012]

58. This!

[FSogol]

56. Unrec.

"It seems like it could foster strong and sometimes dangerous nationalist sentiment in later years." - Did all of the sophomore political science classes get out early this year?

[obamanut2012]

57. Yes

I consider it nationalistic and it really bothers me. I have refused to say it since 10th grade, which was quite a while ago, alas.

I am an American, and should not be required to take what amounts to me as a loyalty oath.

Also: the "Under God" addition is beyond unconstitutional.

[yellowcanine]

59. At least they don't do the "Heil Hitler" arm thrust anymore.

Be thankful for small victories. I agree though, I have always thought that the pledge had a militaristic group think character to it and have always been somewhat surprised that the small government folks seem to have no problem with a federal government imposition of a uniform pledge for all school children albeit supposedly voluntary but of course it isn't really.

[JoePhilly]

61. Meh.

[Generic Other]

62. red white and blue porn

with liberty and justice for some.

[treestar]

64. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but then don't see that it is needed, either

What's the point of it? DUers from other countries, how is the school day begun? Surely we can find countries that successfully educate the youth without this sort of thing!

[lynne]

66. No problem with it at all -

- my children are all 20+ years but they said it daily at school and haven't suffered any dangerous consequences as a result. Given that it's been said daily in most schools for about the last 50 years, I'm not sure there's any evidence to support your concerns.

[randome]

67. It's pointless and silly. But I never wasted my time on nonsense like a 'Pledge'.

There are larger battles to fight.

[datasuspect]

68. the hippies that taught me when i was in elementary school (early 70s)

taught us old woody guthrie songs.

there'd be a bunch of us wee'uns singing "this land is your land" and stuff like that.

[Vidar]

69. In theory yes, but it seems like a battle not worth fighting.

[raouldukelives]

70. The "Under God" is the only part that bugs me.

Really? Were under Christian values? That explains the wars for peace and depleted uranium and drone strikes and the grinning millions who profit off war, sickness and climate change through investments in the markets.
Claiming that we are doing Gods work and then doing the exact opposite might not sit well with our omnipotent lord if one does exist.

[hifiguy]

73. I don't have any big issue with the original Pledge

which was written by a socialist. My mom, born in 1922, told me kids recited it in school in her small northwest Minnesota town when she was a girl. Not so crazy about the added "under god" part though.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

75. I do. In America you are free to not have to have alliegence

And it's basically forced upon them

[LanternWaste]

76. At worst, it's benign. At best, it's benign.

At worst, it's benign. At best, it's benign. Worse things being said are justified daily.

[cliffordu]

78. I have a problem with it:

I said it every goddamned day I was in school.

And then, in 6th grade, while the girls were in "health class",

(learning about menstruation, 'cause their parents were too disgusted with biology to explain it themselves...)

We boys were taken to the Gym and indoctrinated into the "domino theory"

(Chinese and Russian commies killing and raping kangaroos after sodomizing the entirety of southeast asia)...

AND THEN:

A mere 6 years later (!!!) I volunteered to go to Viet Nam.

I boarded the plane like a medicated cow, comforted in the idea that I was going to live up to the Pledge.


*******************


"Blood. A necklace on me all my life."

(Michael Ondaatje, Memoirs of Billy the Kid.)


***************

Fuck the Pledge. Spill your blood where you will.

But don't do it on MY account.

And don't do it over some bullshit pledge to a flag that means exactly dick these days.

Maybe that's all it ever meant.


YMMV

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. It's the original Loyalty Oath to the bosses.

[jp11]

81. I never liked it, didn't want to pledge allegiance to anything

and as I got older it reminded me of the body snatchers, then other countries where people were showing their loyalty or forced to pretend to do so.

I don't think it serves any real purpose for kids, if you want kids to understand the country/patriotism teach them about it in history. There isn't any need to have little kids recite an oath when they don't know jack about what it means, and when I started I didn't know anything about it other than we all had to do it period.

I don't quite agree about it alone fostering dangerous nationalist sentiment I think it might contribute to that if there were other forces at play in fanning that fire like parents who were really high up on patriotism, american exceptionalism, etc.