So tell me, ...what did this guy do to deserve it?

[Earth_First]

Last edited Mon May 21, 2012, 09:37 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm sure there's an appologist or two out there willing to defend the beating and arrests of journalists...



CHICAGO, IL - MAY 20: Getty Images photographer Scott Olson is seen with blood on his head after being hit by a baton by Chicago police
during a protest near the Nato conference venue on the first day of the Nato summit on May 20, 2012 in Chicago, Illinois.

[monmouth]

1. Remember when we were kids and told "Policemen were your friends." I don't recognize much of this

Last edited Mon May 21, 2012, 10:05 PM - Edit history (1)

country anymore. I'm wondering if the CIA is involved in any of these tactics or some other unknown organization.

[RKP5637]

11. I was told the same. In fact, most of the cops where I grew up were

pretty nice and one could respect them. That was a long time ago. I don't feel easy around cops anymore and I have no reason to be bothered by cops. ... but, as you say, and same here, "I don't recognize much of this country anymore."

IMO there is a strong undercurrent of endless hostility. Your comment on the CIA is interesting. I was telling someone the other day that I feel like the US has been invaded by an unknown force that is tearing the nation apart. All of the hatred in this country is staggering.

[roguevalley]

14. feels like a political convention once

[msanthrope]

2. Who is he? I mean, I'm all for detail-free posting in the Lounge, but in

General Discussion, I think it helps to have context.

[randome]

6. Look, it's a guy with a blood head!

How much more proof do you need that we are living in the End Times???

[MineralMan]

3. Do you have any other information?

Who is the guy? Where is he? How did he get that injury? What were the circumstances when the injury occurred?

Any additional information would be great. Otherwise, we have very little to go on, here, to answer your question.

[dems_rightnow]

4. Is he under arrest?

He does not appear to be.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

5. Are you kidding me?

He breathed the 1%'s air.

Lucky he's still living.

Duh.

[sabrina 1]

7. Lucky he's not in jail, well I assume he's not. They've been throwing journalists in jail

since these protests began, especially Bloomberg's Army in NYC.

[zappaman]

8. Yes, can someone explain this photo?

Who is he and how did he acquire the injury to his head?

[GeorgeGist]

9. No context.

No contest.

[Earth_First]

10. The context of this particular image may not be equally as important as the fact...

that there have been dozens of journalists beaten, bloodied and arrested for doing their work this year alone.

I wish that there could be more context associated with this image, however unfortunately I am finding none.

The only context I find is that this image was from Chicago this past weekend.

Maybe this OP is mired in hyperbole, but the truth is that it IS happening and IS documented in previous instances all over protests this year...

..and yes, there are appologists for it.

[Art_from_Ark]

12. The picture is of Getty Images photographer Scott Olson

after he was batoned by a Chicago police officer

http://features.rr.com/photo/09m5eMtfJV1k8?q=Illinois

[Earth_First]

13. Thank you, Art...

Much obliged.

Frankly, it doesn't matter WHO it is.

The matter is that it is an individual who has the ability to document what is happening.

If the past 8 months have been any indication towards the receptive nature of law enforcement officials and journalists, it's that they are not welcomed. Period.

But this is just an image of a guy with a bump on his head, after all...

[sabrina 1]

15. See below, he is a photo journalist who works for Getty images.

But regardless, even if he was just a citizen exercising his rights to protest in this so-called democracy, as even the CNN reporter, not know for their willingness to question the Corporate State said after watching the cops brutally swinging their batons and whatever else they were wielding, into a peaceful crowd of protesters 'Does ANYONE deserve this'??

What do you think?

[Zanzoobar]

16. Doesn't look any worse than Zimmerman's. A scratch, really.

[sabrina 1]

17. Well, Zimmerman killed a man, so he deserved a few 'scratches'. The question was, what did this

American citizen do to deserve being beaten by a cop? I find your response to seeing, what we know now is a photo-journalist, beaten by the police, odd. We do live in a democracy. Are some people so desensitized already that seeing American Citizens, including journalists, bloodied by the cops is just 'Oh well, so what'?

I would love to understand your lack of outrage at such abuse of power.

[Zanzoobar]

18. He doesn't look beaten to me

Maybe he bumped into a stop sign in his haste to get a good photo. I don't really know what happened, but it doesn't look too awfully bad.

[sabrina 1]

24. He's a photo journalist. He wasn't exactly in a war zone, although he sure likes like he was.

I imagine he will explain what happened and I am willing to bet he was beaten by the cops like all the others. In fact it's more than likely there is video, as nearly everyone knows the cops will lie, as they did under oath, just last week, but were exposed by video from multiple sources, including their own. It's stunning how willing they are to lie even when they know there is video proving them wrong. Is that just stupidity or what is it? It was perjury however, so we'll see if they are charged as they should be. After which, btw, one of the videographers whose video exposed their perjury, was arrested in Chicago. Tim Pool is well known to them, and after his video exonerated the protesters, I guess they decided to shut him down, for a while anyhow.

[Earth_First]

26. It kills me that so many here are willing to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt, first...

and question the motive of the journalist second.

[sabrina 1]

30. Lol, I know. There is simply no logic to it considering the past seven months of evidence that

beating up citizens is what they do. And that each time someone tried to give them benefit of the doubt, the right wingers always believe cops even AFTER the evidence surfaces and leaves no doubt, we always end up seeing the video. Then there is silence, until the next time and the whole scenario is repeated.

It helps explain though how things got this bad. There should be zero tolerance for this kind of behavior, and it should be unanimous. When a society refuses to excuse criminal behavior in its elected officials and public employees, there is far less of it. The US tolerates torture and other war crimes, there is virtually no outrage, it's amazing. Also tolerated are massive economic crimes, there is an acceptance that this is how it is. Again, no appropriate outrage.

I read a while ago that Americans are traumatized as a nation, like abused people. That they know nothing better so don't realize how awful and inappropriate what they accept as normal, really is. I doubted that, but now I'm not so sure. To be so desensitized to brutality and crime of such magnitudes, probably is a form of trauma. Not even our government killing children with drones gets any kind of appropriate reaction.

Maybe it's all too horrible to acknowledge so denial is the only way to cope?

[coalition_unwilling]

40. It is positively disgusting and pathetic. - n/t

[Bake]

88. The loyal apologists for the police are here in force on DU

And it makes me sick.

Bake

[CTyankee]

31. a journalist carrying a camera, what more do you need?

OF COURSE, he is a threat.

I love this photo. It speaks volumes.

Yup, carrying a camera...there are few things that strike more fear in the hearts of dictatorships than a roving photojournalist...it is a hallmark of tyranny...

[Generic Other]

80. This is how a police state maintains its power

when good citizens refuse to see or care what is being done in their name. Shame on you.

[boppers]

20. I don't know what he did. Do you?

Was a cop swinging at a guy nearby who trying to strangle somebody to death, and the baton glanced?
Was no cop involved, and they guy just wanted to get famous, so he cut himself, pro-wresting style?
If he was "beaten" by a cop, why is there no swelling, no bruising, just one tiny cut?

[sabrina 1]

23. I don't know yet, but the video will be available soon. I do remember so many instances like this

where people questioned whether or not a cop could actually behave that way. And in every case, when the video surfaced, sadly, there was no question. This movement was very smart to make sure that everyone there who could, had a camera. Had they not had the forethought to do that from the beginning, so many incidents like this would have been blamed on the protesters. Which is why the cops tried to make it illegal last week, to photograph them.

And two people would maybe have gone to jail last week, because of being falsely arrested and because the cops blatantly lied under oath, had there not been video, some of it filmed by Tim Pool. Those cases were dismissed and innocent people were exonerated. Imagine if there had been no video.

And in Chicago, for the first time, Tim Pool was arrested, just days after his video exposed the lying cops.

[Earth_First]

25. So many are so quick to take defense of law enforcement? Why?

As though there is no precedence behind the accusations that journalists, credentialed press pool members or not; are being targeted by law enforcement at these events...

This year has been INCREDIBLE in the amount of of journalists that have been arrested, detained, or beaten by law enforcement that one would believe that this is happening in a far off land. It's not.

It's happening every day here in the good ole U S of A.

:sigh:

[boppers]

29. How many were arrested, detained, or beaten in each of the last 20 years?

Somebody's been keeping up with those numbers, I'm sure. There's also the problem that somebody with a molotov cocktail in one hand, and a camera in the other, can claim they're a "journalist" now. Many seem to, as it's kind of part of the playbook.

[sabrina 1]

36. Do you have an instances of that scenario you just conjured up happening at any of these

protests? REAL journalists have been attacked, injured and jailed since these protests began. Doctors Without Borders have filed complaints about the treatment of journalists by the US Police and as a result of that treatment, the US has been ranked around 47 on the list that shows which countries respect freedom of the press. That is a disgrace, in case anyone is wondering.

Also arrested and detained and wounded, some elected officials in NYC eg. As a result, a lawsuit has been filed by one of NYC's Council members about a week ago.

As for lists, over 7,000 protesters have been arrested and detained since last September, some longer than others. Most report being very badly treated while in detention, prevented from getting medical help when injured, prevented from using the bathroom, forced to defecate wherever they are being held, sometimes after hours of not being allowed to relieve themselves. And sometimes with no information for their families and attorneys as to where they are being held, for days.

Only two cases have gone to court out of all those arrests so far. Both were dismissed because the cops lied which was clear from video taken of the arrests.

That is not a record of the past 20 years, it is a record of the past 7 months.

[boppers]

41. Well, how does it compare to other years?

Is this the same as five years ago, or not?

I believe there was an assertion that something unusual ("INCREDIBLE&quot was happening, so we have to establish what is "usual", to compare it to.

[sabrina 1]

42. I don't know, maybe the phony War on Drugs or the detention of Muslims suspected of being terrorists

How many other groups have had 7 seven thousand of their members arrested and detained and charged over the past seven months? I don't think even that many 'terrorists' have had that many arrests in such a short period of time over the past number of years, other than when Bush's war scooped up thousands of Iraqis in Iraq and threw them in Abu Ghraib. But in the US?

How about Journalists? Before OWS, how many journalists were arrested while covering stories and beaten and detained? Since Doctors Without Borders keeps track of these things and took the extraordinary step, in a first world country, of filing a complain with the US Government and down-grading the US Free Press status to such a low position on the chart, probably very few, if any.

Does any of this bother you at all? I remember when Bush was president and there were huge anti-war demonstrations, the left went wild when, at one demonstration in NY there were some injuries to some protesters by the police. The outrage went on for months airc.

I guess I'm beginning to wonder, was all that fake? Situational ethics, Bush was not really so bad, but he was a Republican? Personally I was genuinely outraged as I value our Constitutional rights but since Bush has been gone, it seems some on the Left are no longer outraged by many of the things they claimed to be outraged over when he was president. Isn't something right or wrong no matter who is in power? It is pretty remarkable. Maybe some just got used to the loss of rights?? Maybe this is what happens, slowly the outrage goes away, and then more rights are removed. Or maybe it never was real outrage after all.

Frankly I think it is absolutely outrageous, the treatment of peaceful protesters we've witnessed over the past several months. And I would think so no matter who it was aimed at, and no matter who was in power.

[boppers]

47. Give me numbers, not rhetoric.

You made an assertion that can be demonstrated with data.

So, what is the data?

[Earth_First]

44. Josh Sterns has been documenting arrests of journalists since September...

In a mere 8 months, 85 journalists have been arrested: http://boingboing.net/2012/05/20/tracking-the-arrest-and-harass.html

That's an average of 10 per month, yet this isn't alarming to you?!

[Earth_First]

45. ...and there is also "Photography Is Not A Crime" -ran by a DUer who doesn't post very often

probably because there are folks here at DU who seem to have no problem identifying with cops first and the Consitutional rights of citizens second...

Millers' documentation of the corruption against journalists, "credentialed" or otherwise e.g. Independent Media, Citizen Journalists, Photogs et. al is followed globally...

[boppers]

49. Compared to what?

What is the baseline?

[Earth_First]

50. When was the last time you heard of 10 journalists being arrested every month, for nearly a year...

Within the United States, sir/m'am?

C'mon now, if necessary tonight I'll find you the peer reviewed evidence; however you know just as well as I that this is a disturbing upward trend.

[boppers]

56. I have never heard of it.

So, some numbers from a peer reviewed source would definitely be illuminating and informative, especially if there are other years to compare/contrast.

[sabrina 1]

68. One journalist arrested and detained

is one too many in a democracy.

Demanding 'peer reviewed' information is just another tactic, imo. This is so recent a trend the evidence is easy to find.

So, here's my question, why are you, a Democrat, not alarmed, as so many others are, that this country has suddenly started to harass and even jail journalists all of a sudden?

There is no doubt it is happening so let's just move on from there. Why does this abuse of the Constitution not alarm you?

[boppers]

74. Journalists who rape children should be arrested and detained, to point to the obvious.

Hiding behind "freedom of the press" is not license to commit a crime. Just because your "journalism project" was to document child porn, doesn't justify having a huge stash of videos of children being brutalized. Same with "bloggers" who have video cameras claiming to be "journalists".

Oh, and peer review has been going on for over 400 years, 1,300+ if you count religious textual interpretation debates.

"So, here's my question, why are you, a Democrat, not alarmed, as so many others are, that this country has suddenly started to harass and even jail journalists all of a sudden?"

Because it hasn't happened in a new or different way, as far as I can tell. Journalists have always been arrested, and jailed. They are not immune from law. It is not "sudden" to be arrested and jailed for a crime, regardless of one's profession.

"There is no doubt it is happening so let's just move on from there. Why does this abuse of the Constitution not alarm you?"

Uhm, how is it happening in a different way than before? You may have "no doubt", but I'd like to see some numbers. I have doubt, even if you are certain of your religion.

[sabrina 1]

83. Report: Press freedom holds steady worldwide

Report: Press freedom holds steady worldwide

Freedom House’s annual survey of freedom of the press around the world found that for the first time in eight years, global media freedom showed no overall decline. The report came out just before Thursday’s observance of the U.N.-declared World Press Freedom Day.

As usual, Western democracies ranked high in the Washington-based group’s freedom of the press report.

But Freedom House marked down the United States slightly for heavy-handed police crackdowns on journalists covering various Occupy Wall Street protests in 2011.

In January, Reporters Without Borders dropped its ranking of the United States to 47th in the world in its annual Press Freedom Index, due to the Occupy media suppression, from 20th in the world a year before.

We should be ashamed. And we do not have the numbers for 2012 yet. At a time when the Free Press around the world has improved, the US has dropped 27 places on the World's Free Press chart. Shameful in a democracy.

You can continue to deny the facts if you wish. The world will not though.

As for your comment, what does 'a reporter who rapes someone' have to do with this topic?

A Congressman who rapes someone, a King who rapes someone, a President who rapes someone, anyone who rapes someone is a criminal. Was there some reason for introducing this totally off topic issue here?

[Bake]

90. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant"

Journalists are the sunlight. Cops prefer to operate in the dark, where nobody knows what they do and whom they beat on.

Bake

[Earth_First]

51. When was the last time you heard of 10 journalists being arrested every month, for nearly a year...

Within the United States, sir/m'am?

C'mon now, if necessary tonight I'll find you the peer reviewed evidence; however you know just as well as I that this is a disturbing upward trend.

[WriteWrong]

158. None, of course. Is there some legitimate number of inappropriately beaten-up innocents?

[boppers]

160. Sure. They get their day in court, and their lawsuits.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. So how does that compare with the number of banksters arrested since September?

85:0 ?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

65. So, how many instances of these molotov cocktail throwing "fake journalists" can you point to? nt

[boppers]

71. Hm, at OccupyPortland's last stand, I counted 10 who were armed for combat *and* journalism.

No record other than anecdote and personal memory, so that's not worth a damn thing, other than how it formed my opinion.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

75. You're right.

Not worth a damn.

[boppers]

78. Just like everybody who carries a camera and claims to be a "journalist".

Yup.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

82. What is this? "I know you are but what am I?" You're

the one making up bullshit scenarios. Then demanding other people provide "data and not rhetoric".

[U4ikLefty]

106. It's his typical approach.

Wanna have fun? Ask him to prove marijuana causes overdose deaths.

[boppers]

28. You're pretty fascinated by video evidence.

You mention it in a lot of posts (enough for me to notice, anyways).... up here in Portland, the cops are taping, the activists are taping, the media is taping.... seems to keep things pretty well behaved all around.

Of course, selective video editing is like selective photographic evidence. There's a thread going around (maybe even in this one) where the first photo seemed to show a cop hitting a protester, but didn't show the protester hitting the cop seconds before, until furor over the first released photo erupted.

[sabrina 1]

33. Multiple cameras produce evidence from many different angles, that is why so far, no one has

questioned the evidence of the brutality of the police towards protesters since this movement began.

You asked what happened, I am used to being asked this question when photos like this show up after a protest. So I responded that, as always happens, we will most likely see video of what happened.

The organizers of this movement who received training in preparation for what they thought at the time, might be only about a month or two of occupation in one city, correctly predicted how important filming everything would be. They have been meticulous about doing this and it paid off every time there have been questions, like yours.

[boppers]

35. It's also why some protesters get arrested, and convicted, for their actions.

"He started it" works both ways.

I think this is a positive development, be the accused "black bloc" or "blue bloc", anarchists or cops.

[sabrina 1]

43. No protesters have been convicted, BECAUSE of video evidence. Have you followed any of this at all

because you seem to be very misinformed frankly. Black bloc are not part of OWS and, btw, as far as I know none of them were even apprehended, in Oakland eg. The police seemed uninterested in detaining them that night in October, they arrived after nearly everyone else had left, set a few garbage cans or something on fire. Police got their photos but no one was arrested. In fact, rather than go after THEM, most of the cops hung around the few stragglers left over from the huge march earlier that day.

There has also been video of undercover police caught returning to their vans and some of Feds posing as protesters, returning to the Federal Building. They weren't very good at pretending to be protesters so they were followed and photographed using their keys to enter the Fed Bldg. More video of one cop who had hung out for days at an encampment, and then video of him in his cop uniform. When asked why he had pretended to be a protester, he walked away, but later wrote a blog post claiming he really was a supporter of the movement and was there in his spare time. Lol!

Thank god for video or people, probably even you, would be claiming the protesters were making this all up.

[boppers]

46. You have made my point.

Thanks.

[sabrina 1]

48. Your point must be a state secret, because I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Seems to me your point was to dismiss the violence that the whole world has been shocked by and I can only assume that the only reason anyone would do that is because they have not followed this story at all.

Well, to be clear, any Democrat. Right wingers of course have always dismissed it because to them, anything short of eliminating 'lefties' is nowhere near enough.

[boppers]

54. My point is that bullshit allegations get refuted by video evidence.

On all sides.

Real allegations get supported by video evidence.

On all sides.

That's why everybody is taping now, so exaggerated claims can be dismissed, and real claims can be prosecuted....regardless of who is making the claim.

[sabrina 1]

59. And I agree, which is why I keep asking for the video evidence of violent protesters.

We have seven months worth of video, some of it used to prove the cops were lying last week, showing who is responsible for the violence at all of these protests. What is it that you are disagreeing with here?? The cops bring the violence every time and there is irrefutable evidence that this is the case.

Please show me an hour even, of video showing protesters who started any of the violence at any of these protests. Not Black Bloc btw, they are not OWS.

OWS is a non-violent, peaceful movement, understanding that they get their support by NOT being violent and knowing also that each time the cops beat up an old lady and are filmed doing so, which they have been, that gets more support for the movement.

Iow, their non-violent stance is a TACTIC. That is why what you are saying makes zero sense.

You've presented nothing to refute the findings of Doctors Without Borders, nothing to show that the protesters are violent, refused to acknowledge that over 99% of the violence has been caused by the police. You've been given statistics, which you then say you do not want.

What is apparent from all of your comments is an attempt to use the old false equivalency argument which goes like this: If 99% of the violence is committed by the side you are on, but 1% is committed by the side you don't like, rather than concede the facts when they cannot be argued against, fall back on the false equivalency claim that 'they both do it'.

Sorry, that is simply so outrageously wrong, and transparent (the MSM have been trying it from the beginning) that even people who are not supportive of OWS haven't bought it.

Either provide something to back up your claims, or there is no point in playing this 'false equivalency' game any longer. You can't win that game when the numbers are so completely off the charts against it.

Facts matter. And never mind 'demanding' proof. You were given proof, you refused to acknowledge it and while demanding it thought that no one noticed the total lack of proof you yourself provided.

Wrong, the glaring absence of anything to back up the false claim that 'they both do it' in this case, from you, was fully noted from the beginning.

[fascisthunter]

60. well done Sabrina

[sabrina 1]

61. Tired of the circular argument, with zero to back it up. Not that I hadn't noticed but

decided to give the poster a chance to stop the games and provide some evidence for the claims. One thing I despise more than anything is that false equivalency argument. I thought we all had enough of that from the MSM by now. Anyhow, thanks

[fascisthunter]

100. you are always welcome!

you are a valuable Duer!

[Generic Other]

81. +100 Sabrina

Chicago police have a history of brutality.

[boppers]

70. If 99.9999% percent are innocent, that's still not 100%.

Again, on both sides.

Claiming OWS is "innocent", while claiming that actions committed, by people at OWS marches, aren't "really" OWS, is like cops claiming that violent actions committed by cops are "bad apples", and "not representative" of the police.

The hypocrisy is quite obvious.

Now, as you rightly point out, false equivalency has its problems, but so does claiming that people who were part of OWS marches somehow "aren't really part of OWS" (paraphrasing).

[sabrina 1]

95. Black Bloc is not OWS. How hard is that for you to understand?

Last edited Wed May 23, 2012, 02:35 PM - Edit history (1)

But it's clear you are attempting to use, as I pointed out before, the false equivalency tactic which cannot work, which is probably why you are having such a difficult time, when the numbers are so clear.

I'm still waiting for something to back up your assertions, I did ask before, but only got anecdotal opinions, which as you said yourself, mean nothing.

Here's what might help you. Post a transcript of any General Assembly or video, there are reams of this kind of evidence as to what OWS is about and it's principles, plans for actions etc. where they in any way condone violence. That would be helpful.

[boppers]

102. How is OWS preventing Bloc infiltration? Blood tests or something? eom

[sabrina 1]

103. 'Infiltration'. Thank you!

[boppers]

109. So, members.

You may not like them being there, but they infiltrated. They're there. They're members.

[sabrina 1]

118. I don't care what they do. They are a separate group who have been around

for a very long time, but no, they are not part of a movement whose methods differ from theirs like night from day.

Were the violent infiltrators in MLK's Civil Rights Movement 'members'?

[boppers]

119. If you think the Civil Rights Movement was all non-violent, shame on your schooling.

There were very real arguments and fights about methods, tactics, etc.... from *within*. Not to mention real, actual, street violence. I guess you kind of hint about your education on the topic, though, by calling it "MLK's Civil Rights Movement".

Do you consider Malcolm X an "infiltrator"? Stokely Carmichael? Huey Newton?

[sabrina 1]

120. What was MLK's approach to achieving his goals?

Did he agree that violence was the answer? Do YOU think violence is needed? People disagree on this issue, OWS has committed itself to being non-violent. Some don't agree with them. What is your opinion on this issue?

Is it possible that MLK would have failed without those other leaders of the movement who believed violence was necessary at times?


I will ignore your personal attack for now, and not decide, for the moment, that it diminishes your credibility totally. I'm curious as to what your point is, who you agree with. Why are so determined to blame OWS for what Black Bloc does, especially if you believe that violence is okay or was, during the Civil Rights Era, or are you saying it was not? And are you saying that MLK was not a leader of the Civil Rights Movement? You seem to be all over the place and I'm trying to sort out where you stand.

Edited to add, are you denying that there infiltrators during the Civil Rights era, attempting to discredit it, and no, I was not referring to MalcolmX.

[boppers]

123. MLK advocated non-violence.

However, he wasn't the whole movement.

Same with 99%/OWS. If you read the early discussions and debate on the civil rights movement, there was a great emphasis on making peaceful, non-violent, action, the "public" face, and drawing together the factions that advocated more direct action under a 'peaceful, non-violent', umbrella. In short, it scared white people less, so there was some "sit down and shut up" directed at those thought to be contrary to the movement.

I don't blame all of OWS for it's violent factions, any more than I blame the civil rights movement for Huey Newton's actions. I also don't turn a blind eye towards the problems of forming coalitions. I do think OWS coalition members have just as much of a right to walk around in public with a gun or a club as a black person has, but am quite aware that such a thing causes huge PR issues.

Are you familiar with the "True Scotsman" fallacy? Claiming that "no true OWS participant would be violent" is an excellent example of the fallacy.

If you are trying to figure out where I stand, I believe that movements, for political expediency, tend to hush up, or distance themselves, from their more unpopular fringes, but that all large social movements also attract elements of the fringes. Sure, the movements have various leaders, and MLK was *a* leader, but he wasn't the only one. (Who is OWS's leader?..... that's right, there isn't *one*).

Oh, and every movement is "infiltrated", by both the fringe, and their opposition. That doesn't mean that every annoying Blac Bloc action, or cop stirring up moronic "anarachists", should be laid at the feet of OWS, but that it should be accepted as part of operational realities when dealing with any large group. Likewise, with stupid cops who like to abuse their power, idiot district attorneys who throw the book at everybody.... judging a whole group with simple smears and labels only demonstrates a shallow understanding of the problems of dealing with large groups of people.

Any clearer? Or is it too complex to process once it leaves the realm of "good guy"/"bad guy"?

[U4ikLefty]

107. boppers...you have been owned!!!

[boppers]

110. Only for those lacking a dictionary.

OWS has also been infiltrated by socialists, communists, anarchists, libertarians, hippies, and all kinds of special interest groups.

infiltrated: past participle, past tense of in·fil·trate (Verb)
Verb:
Gain access to (an organization, place, etc.) furtively and gradually, esp. in order to acquire secret information.
Permeate or become a part of (something) in this way: "computing has infiltrated most professions now".

[sabrina 1]

121. And nurses, construction workers, fire fighters, pilots, school teachers, students,

Military Veterans etc. some of whom may be hippies, socialists, libertarians, communists, anarchists, democrats, republicans, independents, young people, old people, African Americans, Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Gays, and every kind of American. Iow, a cross section of the American people. Which is why it is so successful at this early stage. It's a beautiful picture of the American culture, the melting pot, coming together for one purpose. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it is a wonderful thing to be a part of.

What kind of country do you think this is if it is not made up of all kinds of people? And are you opposed to hippies, socialists, communists who are US Citizens doing nothing wrong, free thankfully to believe what they want to believe, without harassment, standing up for the rights of the people?

What would your Social Justice movement look like?

[boppers]

124. Indeed. It's a huge coalition, rarely attempted before.

If I was *leading* a social justice movement (unlike OWS, which doesn't really have leaders), it would look somewhat like OWS, only with more effort placed on taking care of the health, and hygiene, of the group, and more of a focus placed on preservation of the commons, and more respectful discussion.

Where OWS seems to be failing in the public PR war, IMHO, is that there does not seem to be proportionate representation of the elements of the melting pot, as least, not in the media sphere. I've only been to one occupy site (Portland), and the place was horribly trashed: part homeless camp, part drug market, part "festival" site, no respect for the grounds, fights breaking out every few minutes, people screaming slogans about policy issues... not exactly a place to find "nurses, construction workers, fire fighters, pilots, school teachers, students".

What would you say the ideal OWS group experience is like, as demonstrated by which location?

[Fire Walk With Me]

122. And you know what? They don't make policy, at all.

Policy comes from group concensus. Anyone may present an idea, but it only happens if the entire group approves it.

The Communists often show up at Occupy LA, set up a table, talk to folks, sell their newsletter...and they're not making policy. All are welcome to attend so long as they don't disrupt or cause harm. Any obvious haters such with signs such as "God hates fags" will usually quickly find someone standing next to them with an even larger sign saying "Ignore this idiot".

But you appear, through your 99.99999% pure statement, and your above statement, to believe that 0.000001% impure, is "infiltrated". So I won't bother talking with you any more. Peace, good luck.

[boppers]

126. They do, unfortunately, make news.

If you cannot get the news on your side, it's a tough row to hoe.

Imagine, if you will, what would happen to DU without tombstoning, without a way to "permanently" sanction the disruptive, the trolls, the sociopaths, the people who exist to create chaos.

That's the problem OWS faces.

[sabrina 1]

128. Oh please. You are talking about the US media? They create 'news' to fit an agenda. No one

with any real interest in actual news even watches the MSM propaganda anymore. Even Hillary Clinton had to admit that they have become irrelevant compared to the sources now available to people around the world. RT's and Al Jazeera's coverage of OWS was actual reporting. But if you are getting your news from the US Media, then I perfectly understand why you so misunderstand what this movement is, is about, and where it is going.

OWS organzers of course anticipated this, they prepared for it by creating their own media. That is why the MSM has failed so spectacularly to discredit the movement and they sure tried as expected, to do that.

Independent and foreign media however are where most people get their news now. The US media is rated #47 on the World Free Press scale, making not worth watching. Young people especially, do not watch the MSM which is they are so much more informed.

OWS is a global movement, it did not start in the US. In fact, we were late to the game.

I see now why you know so little about the movement. Seriously, the MSM tried to ignore the movement in the beginning, that was a GOOD thing. Because we all knew what they would do if they covered it. But other media did not ignore, so the MSM realized they had made a strategic mistake, assuming it would not last, when in fact it spread across the country, as it had already in Europe and other parts of the world.

When they did decide to cover it, it was as expected, attempt to discredit it. That failed miserable as OWS's own media was way ahead of them. Polls in NYC eg, showed that over 80% of respondents were NOT influenced by the MSM's smears, but supported the right of the protesters to be in Zuccotti Park. That is why Bloomberg and his 'army' the NYPD, could not shut it down immediately.

The MSM is dying. Propaganda doesn't work the way it used to. It is boring, recycling the same old talking heads on the Sunday Programs, using the same old tactics to smear anything that threatens Wall Street.

The Poster Girl for the attempted destruction of OWS on CNN, sent to Zuccotti Park to help end this movement, was basically destroyed because she LIED, and OWS's own media was easily able to expose her agenda. Her ratings now are probably less than a good OP on an internet forum can get.

I will be back later to respond to your other posts. We have company and I have some cooking to do.

[boppers]

129. I propose the following ideas for a GA:

1. A wall cleaning march.
A OWS march through a rough section of town, where everybody makes an effort to scrub or repaint graffiti. Alert the media.

2. A greening march.
Similar to above, only trimming, pruning, planting and gardening are the theme. Even better if *food* is planted in publicly available spaces. Alert the media.

3. A public pet clinic.
You know who has even worse health care in the US than "our" people? Their pets. Open one-day clinics. (Needs vet tech volunteers). Alert the media.

4. A mop march (best for big cities).
If you've lived in NYC, or other big city, you know the scent. March, try to fix it. Alert the media.

OWS has had some serious damage inflicted by assholes who want to (supposedly) firebomb something, damage something, break something. If you/we can *fix* something, or make the world better, the media may not cover it, but everybody on a street will remember it. And then another street will remember it. And another.

[sabrina 1]

132. Each comment you make shows how little you have followed this movement.

OWS in various parts of the country, HAVE organized cleaning crews, provided community services to people in some of the poorest areas in the country, even worked with officials and the police in some cities, where they were actually welcomed.

They have saved people's homes from foreclosure, fed the poor, organized treatment for addicts cities have no provisions for, held education seminars for people to which they have invited such well-known Economists as Stiglitz eg, so that people understand how this government's economy works.

They have fed and cared for stray animals at the various encampments, can't believe you never saw the photos of all these actions.

And that is why they have been among the most popular Social Justice movements because as you must know, most Social Justice movements have NOT been popular while they were in existence.

They have participated in one of the most successful 'Move Your Money' actions after BOA announced even more fees causing that huge Corporation to withdraw those plans.

They were arrested when they went to withdraw their money, a stupid move on behalf of whoever made that decision, as people were outraged that an American citizen would be arrested for withdrawing their own money from a bank, getting them even more support, rather than what was intended.

The actions they have taken across the country are so numerous, it is impossible to list them all here.

If you have ideas for other actions, then rather than sitting here criticizing them for not taking those actions, all you have to do is go to a General Assembly meeting and raise the issue. That is the beauty of the movement. There is virtually no excuse for people to whine about what is NOT being done since it is so simple to actually get it done now.

[boppers]

135. You missed my refrain.

Media coverage is all but required to spread the message fast.

Spread it slow, block by block, over 20 years, if that's what it takes.

Sure, be a dick in front of the cameras, if that's your thing, or just move the money, no muss, no fuss.

Want to "win fast", though, you need the media. MLK started his work over 60 years ago.

Even with the media, it's still "in progress".

[sabrina 1]

138. I didn't miss your refrain at all.

No, they didn't need the media. They have their own media and the MSM did not cover OWS in the beginning, hoping and expecting it would go away, as I already stated. The movement grew rapidly, much faster than anyone expected, spreading across the country while they media was ignoring it, 'first they ignored it'.

There were no 'dicks' in front of cameras oddly, and there were plenty of cameras around, lots of independent media there, until the MSM realized that ignoring them was not working and then jumped in doing what everyone expected them to do. We live in a time, fortunately, where the MSM is not the only media anymore.

Wait, there were 'dicks' in front of the cameras, the NYPD as I'm sure you recall if you were watching, disgraced themselves once again and since there no OWS 'dicks' to find, it was the NYPD whose photos beating up peaceful people whose behavior was recorded and went around the world.

So who are these 'dicks' you speak of? I can provide reams of footage of them, and their victims, as they, unprovoked, from city to city, carried out their brutality on American Citizens. Are they who are talking about?

Here, this might help you. Check the media section a few minutes in, a record of the behavior of the MSM. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=31239

Please, keep them away. Their participation was as expected, disgraceful, nicely compiled in this film.

[boppers]

142. Maybe you didn't see it.

http://www.pixiq.com/article/occupy-portland-protester-turns

[sabrina 1]

164. Lol, of course I saw it, months ago, on Glenn Beck's blog, and on Free Republic

It was all over the Right Wing media. What a flop, they really thought they were going to destroy OWS with that.

They keep getting caught, as O'Keefe the moron did when he went to Zuccotti Park pretending to be something, not sure what, but was made a fool of, not that it took much in his case.

And poor Erin Brown, caught acting like she was really trying to find out "But what do they waaaaant? Nobody seems to know?" and instead she became the Poster Girl for Goldman Sachs and probably the laughing stock of the world, for her efforts. She didn't reveal who her fiancee was, but OWS did it for her. Like I said, the old media cannot be trusted at all. And the NYT, caught editing a true headline online as people were reading it, trying to make OWS look bad. That was funny, caught in the act!

The stupidity of the far right knows no bounds. And it's hard to tell CNN from Fox anymore.

Btw, did you see this? Kind of exposed those 'news' people, don't you think?

KGW Accidentally Airs Graphic Counting Stinky People And Angry People At Occupy Portland



Lol!! No, no, THEY had no agenda! Lol, totally trustworthy 'news' from the unbiased MSM

But what words did you have to put in the search engine to drag up this, mostly right wing non-story on Google? The only way you get this kind of thing is to search for negative stuff. And the far right has plenty of strange, made-up stuff as we all know. Surely you were't doing that!

Did you know that this is a Global Movement, meaning it is everywhere, in Africa, Australia, Europe, South America, even in Antarctica, which I thought was really fun btw? That millions of people belong to the movement? Wondering what was the point of dredging up this pathetic, seven-month-old, right wing story?

Because there are literally millions of people you could have linked to, tens of thousands of wonderful stories from all over the world, about people who are actual occupiers including real life heroes, and some who are very well known, like Tom Morello eg. It makes no sense for you to have dug through the garbage of the right wing media to point out that pathetic failed attempt to make that poor fool the face of a world wide movement.

Here's someone who could be called representative of OWS:

That was a perfect example of the far right media trying to undermine OWS and picking someone they obviously thought would act like an idiot, instead they got a typical member of OWS who happens to be very articulate who wiped the floor with Fox.

See the difference? Did Fox air that footage? Lol, what do YOU think?

Didn't matter. As I said OWS doesn't need the MSM, that footage was probably seen all over the world by more people than it would have had Fox had the integrity and the guts to show the truth for once. As if that could ever happen.

They've lost control of the 'message'. The world has changed, the old media has totally discredited itself and the new media has out-classed them especially during these beginning stages of OWS, which is why they are now trying to make it illegal to photograph the 'dicks' who caused most of the violence at the protests.

Just thought of something, maybe you were searching for the 'dick' you referred to above, and that was all you found? From seven months ago. Well, I'm sure there are a few more 'dicks', to use your word again, in the movement, but nowhere near as many as are in the various Police Departments and we have plenty of evidence for that claim.

[boppers]

165. Some wang thought that a local Fox news guy was part of the 1%.

Enmity towards Faux, in general, I guess, but that is like hating on cops (who are part of the 99%), for the whole system.

Oh, and yes, I went to Occupy Portland. That shit smelled bad from blocks away. There was *one* toilet facility for men, *one* toilet facility for women. For the whole freaking camp. That's it. (And they would shut it down, for hours, to clean it). The camp was filled with gutter-punks, anarchobabies, homeless, young idealists, and the otherwise lost/fucked under our current systems. The people there trashed the park grounds, which is a HUGE Portland no-no. Ride naked through our streets, cool, but do *not* fuck up our green space.

"Well, I'm sure there are a few more 'dicks', to use your word again, in the movement"

They get press, just like David Duke.

David Duke didn't crash the republicans, so.....

[sabrina 1]

166. Really, I have a friend who was part of the Portland Occupy movement. I guess you just stopped by

but were not an occupier. He was and is. Funny, his account and photos, and video were absolutely wonderful. Thank god for video, and so much of it. I also talked to the Portland PD about the brutality of the police in Oakland and how they were planning to handle things in Portland. Funny, the cop I spoke to told me he was worried, had seen the footage from Oakland, wished he wasn't 'so low in the chain of command' and wished I and others would talk to the Chief. Also talked to members of the City Council when protesters were arrested and no one could find where they were, including the City Council members, who btw, told me many of THEIR friends were part of the movement.

Did you know that? That in many cities, City Council members and elected officials, Democrats of course, joined OWS. You give yourself away so often. You should stop reading those right wing sites and watching their media. You actually are using their language now. Reading right wing propaganda is harmful to the intellect, not to mention, the soul.

Yes, the Portland Occupiers are the best, they have the support of many city council members and from my conversation with the Police, some of them were very happy they were there, as they were taking care of the addicted, the poor, the homeless which the city has failed to do. Did you know that the police themselves dropped off the homeless and people who were addicted to be taken care of by the occupiers?

Btw, I notice you always ignore the refutations of your claims and veer off in a new direction when you are corrected. I hope you didn't think I didn't notice that.

Did you look at the garbage from the righties on that channel? Lol, we had so much fun when that happened. And you didn't tell me what key words you used to dig up that old story. It brought back happy memories of how successful OWS has been at dealing with the expected attacks from far right.

What, no comment from you on a topic YOU raised?

[boppers]

167. I was *not* a camper.

You do yourself no favors assuming that everybody who doesn't agree with you is "opposition".

I did know that Occupy PDX was a dumping ground for the mentally ill (etc.). It has been spun a few ways.

And yes, I accept correction, and opposition. It's a sign of maturity.

I hope you notice it, and continue discussion.

[boppers]

143. Thanks for posting this link, BTW.

Looks like a good piece.

[Fire Walk With Me]

67. Please see my post #58 in this thread.

Thank you so much for your work for freedom, you kick ass.

[sad sally]

19. Another story about another victim in Chicago that didn't deserve what he got:

Published on Monday, May 21, 2012 by The Guardian/UK
Nato Talks Security and Peace, Chicago Has Neither
The paradox of such a city hosting this summit lays bare the brutal way in which inequality is globally maintained and locally replicated

by Gary Younge

On Friday morning in Brighton Park, a neighbourhood in southwest Chicago, around half a dozen Latina volunteers in luminous bibs patrolled the streets around Davis Elementary school. The school sits in the crossfire of three gangs; the Kings, the 2/6s and the SDs (Satan's Disciples). The trees and walls nearby are peppered with "tags" denoting territory and mourning fallen gang members. There is a shooting in the area every couple of weeks, explains Mariela Estrada of the Brighton Park Neighbourhood Council, which facilitates the volunteers.

That same evening, just a couple of blocks away, a 14-year-old, Alejandro Jaime, was shot dead while out riding his bike with his 11-year-old friend. According to witnesses, a car knocked them both off their bikes. They picked themselves up and ran. A man got out of the car and shot Alejandro in the back. "Although it's the city's job to provide public safety, we had to respond since our children are in danger and continue to face threats of gang violence," said Nancy Barraza, a Parent Patrol volunteer.

The next morning world leaders started arriving in Chicago for the Nato summit where, just 20 minutes from Brighton Park, they would discuss how to maintain international security. The dissonance between the global pretensions of the summit this weekend and the local realities of Chicago could not be more striking. Nato claims its purpose is to secure peace through security; in much of Chicago neither exists.

When the city mayor Rahm Emanuel brought the summit to Chicago he boasted: "From a city perspective this will be an opportunity to showcase what is great about the greatest city in the greatest country." The alternative "99% tour" of the city, organised by the Grassroots Collaborative that came to Brighton Park, revealed how utterly those who claim to export peace and prosperity abroad have failed to provide it at home.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/05/21-0

[sabrina 1]

34. How terribly sad. And even more so that it occurs on a regular basis. Those children should be

protected. Maybe if the police had not been so busy keeping their promise to 'crack some skulls' at the protests (and there is footage of them making that threat and more footage of them carrying out that on CNN) they could have been doing their job and that child might be alive today.

The alternative "99% tour" of the city, organised by the Grassroots Collaborative that came to Brighton Park, revealed how utterly those who claim to export peace and prosperity abroad have failed to provide it at home.

What a tragedy RIP Alejandro

"Although it's the city's job to provide public safety, we had to respond since our children are in danger and continue to face threats of gang violence," said Nancy Barraza, a Parent Patrol volunteer.

Parents have to do the job the police are not doing. I can't imagine the sadness of those parents.

[treestar]

21. How do we know what was going on?

We're supposed to make up our minds based on this?

[sabrina 1]

37. Well, he is a photo journalist for one of the best organizations that often send their

photo journalist into war zones. According to the link in this thread he works for Getty Images.

We know that because of the treatment of journalists by the police since this movement began, arrests, confiscation of equipment, injuries, detention even when they show their press cards, Doctors Without Borders have filed a complaint with the US Government, something they mostly have to do in dictatorships, rarely in first world democracies. And, because of these abuses of journalists, US ranking on the list of the World's Free Press has plummeted to around #47. So filming these protests has become nearly as hazardous for journalists as filming in war zones.

Considering all of that, combined with the threat by the police to 'crack some skulls' (caught on video) at the protests, and CNN's and other news media footage of the police actually carrying out that thread, we can draw a conclusion that he was most like one of the many who was beaten with a police baton.

Of course a professional photo-journalist like him, probably with experience in war zones, could have simply punched himself in the face.

[lunatica]

22. So the police are thugs. What else is new

Anyone who is surprised by what the riot police do during demonstrations now hasn't been paying attention. This is what happens now, and it will continue to happen. It happened in the 60s, and it happened in New York City and it happened in Oakland.

It will get even worse.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

53. What else is new is that "we" have an AG who apparently won't prosecute any of them, the

oiut-of-control police that is.

[hfojvt]

27. maybe he was stalking somebody with his camera

and they got frightened.

How the heck is anybody supposed to know what he did or didn't do unless they were on the scene?

[Fire Walk With Me]

57. Why the hell would you side with the police!? I'm about to post livestream of what happened to him

and it was the COPS who did it. All he did was his job. Like all of the protesters fighting for the 1st Amendment, which was trashed AGAIN that day in Chicago, right there.

[Iggo]

32. Yay, Cops!

They're the best!

[Fire Walk With Me]

38. Chicago cops also arrested a Getty photographer. Just nonsense... n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

39. How dare Olson bang his head on the pigs'

batons?

(in case it's needed)

Channeling the brutality-enablers on this board.

[fascisthunter]

55. the same posters always siding with authority

and who seem to be cozy with New Dem right wing ideology. Anyone surprised?

[Dragonfli]

64. Surprised? No. Most of them were likely Republican before the GOP purges, they have not changed

but now that they are registered as Democrats (because their true party won't have them anymore), it isn't because they like Democratic policies and attitudes, they are still Republicans at heart and are trying as one might expect to change our party to match their own Friedman school of economics, republican police state, kill entitlements mindset they have always promoted, that ideology is still the one they prefer after all.

Of course they are siding with the militarized version of our police, they are 90's Republicans, most of which still idolize Reagan, they are what they are, the only problem is we appear to bend over backwards to let them infiltrate and turn our party "90's Republican" from within.

It would be better if the big tent did not let in so many authoritarian knuckle dragging Repugs as they do, and letting them set policy as "Third Way" pragmatists. That was never what the big tent approach was about, but rather what ex-Republicans have made it.

[fascisthunter]

101. YOU nailed it

I'm too lazy these days.

[ronnie624]

105. *

[Fire Walk With Me]

58. Here is livestream of what appears to have happened to him.

This is what cops did to a peaceful, emotional Veteran's rally, where they renounced their medals and the infinite war machine and budget, the dishonorable use of soldiers to steal oil for the 1%, etc. Cops lined up several deep and made dispersal orders against an utterly peaceful 1st Amendment assembly, then beat and shoved those who resisted slowly out of the area, nearly causing some to be trampled. It's entirely upon the cops. At about 56:15 on the left, I believe that's the short-haired photographer seen below with a bleeding head wound; Freedom comments "you're bleeding"...so that's where he got it, for being peaceful. Cops even shoved the shit out of the pistashio-capped NLG Observers.

Link to recorded livestream taken just inside the mob of cops seen in the next three pics. Set the timer to 50:00 and play:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/22742223

[Zanzoobar]

62. I was close

He was pretty close to the action and scraped his head on the fence when they were pushed back by the cops.

I didn't see any cops swinging their clubs. I didn't see a beating.

Don't get me wrong. I loathe and mistrust all cops, but hyperbole doesn't help either side.

[Fire Walk With Me]

66. You saw the pics of cops shoving people along the fence and into each other; it's the second photo

in my "Show me what a police state looks like!" thread. You can clearly see one cop with a huge grin. My friend was nearly trampled because of cops shoving people around, when they were fully righteous in expressing their 1st Amendment rights.

Inexcusable behavior on the cops part, and unConstitutional behavoir on Rahm's. $1 million to fight peaceful protesters, and none to stop his planned privatization of 11+ clinics. Beyond shameful.

They bloodied a Getty reporter and arrested another. This is how they're treating journalists and few are complaining?

They treat people with a Constitutional right to gather and peacefully stay in this manner, and people support Rahm and the cops?

[Zanzoobar]

84. I watched the video you posted

That particular guy in the OP was not hit by anything other than the fence.

[sabrina 1]

85. Why did the cops attack those protesters, right after the Veterans tossed their medals?

The police are responsible for his injury. Despite the fact that no one in that crowd was doing anything illegal. There was simply no justification for that assault on American Citizens exercising their 1st Amendment rights and no journalist should have to fear being injured on US streets simply because he is covering a story. They DO get injured when covering stories in oppressive dictatorships and it's likely since he is a Getty photojournalist, he's been in such dangerous situations before and possibly injured.

Indirect or direct, on the streets of this democracy, that should not have happened. It sure wasn't protesters who injured him. But every time the cops show up, there is violence.

[Zanzoobar]

87. I didn't see an attack in the video Fire posted

I saw cops pushing some people around and clearing the streets, as they were ordered to do by the city, I suppose.

[sabrina 1]

97. They moved in as the Veterans themselves, interviewed on various media, stated. People

were taken by surprise, they could not get out, which is why that journalist was injured.

CNN, never friendly to any Social Justice movement these days, showed live coverage of what was going on and it was so bad, the actions of the cops, that their anchor finally asked 'Does ANYONE deserve to be treated like this'.

Not sure why anyone would try to defend this kind of police brutality frankly. They are only lucky no one has died yet. Some nearly have at some of these protests and supposedly 'investigations' are taking place, but so far, even in the case of Scott Olsen, he has had no reports from the police about the cop who nearly killed him.

The world really is watching, and as a result of police violence towards journalists since this movement began, the US has downrated by two organizations who track countries' status regarding the Freedom of the Press. We are the only democracy to be downgraded like this for the 2011. So there really is no denying that police brutality towards journalists.

[Fire Walk With Me]

98. How quickly we forget the Bill of Rights.

...prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Veterans were peacefully gathered to renounce their war medals for various righteous reasons, and did so. Cops gathered six deep in riot gear and demanded everyone leave or face arrest, "less-lethal" technology, chemical oppression...and using physical force, including batons, including shoving, including pushing against people with their bodies six deep,

-interfered with the right to peaceably assemble
-while petitioning a governmental redress of grievances
-and infringed upon the freedom of the press
-overall abridging the freedom of speech.

Use it or lose it.

[Fire Walk With Me]

86. And the cops shoving him into it have nothing to do with it?

Did you see the second picture in my "Show me what a police state looks like!" thread? Cops are the aggressors, bloodying peaceful protesters who were expressing their 1st Amendment rights.

Are people forgetting about the 1st Amendment and that cops and government agencies don't have the right to go against the Constitution? Use it or lose it, that's what Occupy is pointing out. It may already be too late.

[Zanzoobar]

89. I didn't see the other thread.

I'm mostly concerned that on this particular photographer, you are crying wolf.

[Fire Walk With Me]

91. You are making a conclusion without examing the evidence provided?

And accusing a journalist of lying about a head wound?

Seriously, check my Journal or search DU for "Show me what a police state looks like!" and watch the 50-minute mark on the livestream link I've provided. Just set the marker there. Then look at the cops smiling while shoving peaceful protesters.

Or not. But if not, please recognize that you are making a conclusion without checking the evidence.

[Zanzoobar]

92. I watched the video yesterday

I set it at the 50 minute mark and watched. I saw people getting pushed back. Eventually, the photografpher in question appeared with a scratch on his head, apparently from hitting the fence, as the other lady in the video was complaining. He didn't appear to be anywhere near a baton.

In other photos I've seen the photographer appears to be chuckling about it.

[Fire Walk With Me]

93. I didn't say he was baton'd.

And journalists know they can get into dangerous situations. It's probably nothing to him.

But.

It is not okay for police to brutalize peaceful protesters OR journalists (or arrest them as they did to several) in order to eliminate our 1st Amendment rights, whether through shoving people into and against each other and dangerous objects or through hitting them with batons or using guns. This is an absolute. It is also a significant Trend in this country. I've been shoved around, quite seriously, by a cop in a public space, because I was filming cops attacking my fellows. Then he refused to give me his name and badge number after I repeatedly and loudly requested it, quoting the code requiring him to comply. He grinned at me and did nothing, and neither did his fellows. They are all complicit in lawlessness, and this is an unacceptable thing. It is occurring all across this supposedly free country, and worse, much worse.

It is in no way acceptable. The Constitution is an idea, and it is an idea quickly being forgotten. Use it or lose it...

[Zanzoobar]

94. My mistake

You did imply he was beaten.

Every single caption and story I've read about it says be was hit with a baton. Even the caption in your OP says it.

I should probably not have originally responded. I understand partisanship, but you're more than a partisan. The masses will be stirred when the time is right. There simply is not enough pressure at this time. Maybe a good hot summer in the city will ignite the fire you are trying to kindle.

[Fire Walk With Me]

99. Many -were- beaten. This is not my thread. I did not say the photographer was baton'd.

Seriously?

His rights -were- abrogated and he was injured at a peaceful assembly. Other journalists including livestreamers were arrested and pulled over by cops at gunpoint. These things are against the Bill of Rights.

I want a peaceful transition to a sane system. As has been said, Occupy is not a violent revolution. It is trying to prevent one.

[boppers]

114. "peaceful assembly" My ass.

When you turn into a dick in the social sphere, you *lose* that "peaceful assembly" right.

Do not chant.

Do not yell.

Do not say a damn thing.

Be silent.

That is how Gandhi won.

As soon as you make a noise, *any* noise, you have lost, and are playing their game.

[Fire Walk With Me]

115. It was fully peaceful until cops showed up 15+ deep and began giving orders against the

Bill of Rights. Of COURSE righteous people are going to yell, describing the problem and demanding their rights.

Cops would have shoved them out of there regardless. Period. If you've watched the last 8 months of this against Occupiers, and correlated it with what they do to other social movements, it's inevitable. That's why people righteously resist. They know in their gut the cops are destroying our Rights. For the 1%.

Cops would do the exact same thing regardless. They were sent to. Cops don't give points when you're "nice"; they create reasons. They LIE. I've seen it. It's happened to me. It will continue happening.

Silence is consent with this process. I fully agree with those who say "stand your ground" against unConstitutional police orders (read: Orders from the 1%). I'm not into picking fights and do not approve of that, but those who were brutalized in Chicago are righteous. Friends of mine were hurt, and nearly trampled as cops destroyed the 1st Amendment. Unacceptable!

[U4ikLefty]

130. Are you wearing a brown shirt today?

If Gandhi was alive, he'd be right alongside of us.

For an authoritarian like you to invoke Gandhi makes me want to

[boppers]

133. Gandhi thought people should be armed.

Violence was a last resort, and being slaughtered was an incomprehensible, brutal, insane, resort beyond that.

One he had to teach.

[U4ikLefty]

108. give it up

The Getty themselves say that he was hit by a baton .

If you believe they are in error, I suggest you have them offer a retraction. I await your results.

BTW, what do you mean by "more than a partisan"? What are you implying something about Fire?

[Fire Walk With Me]

125. Whoa, I didn't know that, thanks. Blasted cops. n/t

[boppers]

136. "hit by a baton" means nothing.

I get hit with them at least once a week.

I don't know who, or what, "Fire" is, other than conventional meanings.

[U4ikLefty]

151. Your reply makes you look ridiculous.

nothing new

hurry...alert

[boppers]

152. So, you don't engage in baton sport?

An SCA friend of mine had a great idea for OWS coalitions and the SCA to unite, or at least, share tactics and safety gear tips.

[boppers]

113. A bloody scratch is not a head wound. It's a mosh pit souvenir.

It mocks, and insults, those who have *died* for our freedom, to compare a minor scratch to their deaths.

[Fire Walk With Me]

116. Proportion, especially because the rally at which those injuries were doled out

was for Veterans who were refuting their medals and the corrupt mis-use of their lives and service.

This is about government thugs brutalizing citizens who were peacefully assembled, who were fully justified in the 1st Amendment.

Cops screwing that up not only mocks and insults those who were on stage ABOUT those who have died for our freedom, and WHY, because of the dishonor involved in corporate oil grabs..it should make the cops the ones you should be angry at. THEY dishonored the Vets that day. They also (again) trashed the Bill of Rights. They arrested journalists...isn't that forbidden in the Geneva Conventions? They injured peaceful citizens gathered to support our troops and they injured journalists covering it. They nearly got my friends trampled (and yes, they have photos of the bruises to prove it).

Pepper-spray is against international weapons treaties, as is tear gas, in war. Yet, they are used repeatedly against US citizens peacefully using their Constitutional rights.

Why are you not livid at the 1% and their police?

[boppers]

127. I suggest you read the Geneva conventions again.

If you are suggesting (as you seem to be) that we are engaged in a civil war, specific rules apply. Journalists ignoring the rules do not apply to that, and must be registered with combatant forces, and treated as *prisoners of war*.

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/interview/protection-journalists-interview-270710.htm

Oh, and until two governments, both combatants, haven't signed the conventions, the rules are much less applicable. So, if OWS forms a government, that can sign treaties, the rules will change.

edit: have/haven't

[U4ikLefty]

131. You are the one who needs a reading lesson.

He did not say we are in a civil war. You trotted out that lie to move the goalposts.

That is the only way you could make an argument for the police brutality.

Pretty sad.

[boppers]

134. The Geneva conventions are between states.

They do not apply to internal insurrections.

You might as well try to apply spousal abuse laws to political conventions.

[boppers]

112. Sadly, for those who die for their rights, many cry wolf. eom

[boppers]

111. Refusal to disperse is not a right.

[Fire Walk With Me]

117. The Constitution. Use it or lose it. Because it's being killed before our very eyes.

Refusal to disperse, when the gathering fully applies to the 1st Amendment, is our patriotic duty. Especially that day when the cops arrived to dishonor the Veterans who were speaking. All shame lies upon the police, and the thugs who sent them to dishonor the Veterans.

If I were at a peaceful, 1st Amendment rally for our troops, and cops demanded it end, I'd stand ground to support our troops. To support the Constitution.

Last March 17, cops screwed over a completely peaceful four-hour celebration Occupy LA were having for the six-month anniversary of the Occupy movement. Cops descended, bullied, confronted, demanded, pushed buttons, pushed through people, and eventually brought "less-lethal" weapons, shoved people, arrested four, one of whom was grabbed from behind without warning. We're working on getting all of that dropped (the first arrest was thrown out immediately). They had orders to turn something completely peaceful (a vegan chili-eating party) into something justifying arrests. Unacceptable.

Use or lose the Constitution. There are no increments in this. And our duty is to the country, not its rich. We have zero duty to do what they say, when they demand anything, after robbing us of trillions of dollars that the politicians won't do anything to retrieve. You may have heard of civil disobedience. Use that or lose it, too. Because right now they're working on an army of drones to patrol the skies, because someone is making incredible money weaponizing the police through calling all citizens potential terrorists. It's time. There is no other time. There are no other people to do this. We are the ones who will make the Change we require, or it will not happen at all, ever.

[boppers]

137. Riot is not a right. Orderly assembly, is.

An assembly for "a vegan chili-eating party" is not.

Unless, of course, chili-eating can be somehow cast as a dire political issue.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Not seeing chili in there.

[Fire Walk With Me]

141. Seriously? Seriously? I'm looking at this and looking at this

and it looks like you are implying that people have no rights, and must do everything and anything police tell them, and that police can make up any detail as they wish. Guess what, that's exactly what they're doing.

Tell me that I am incorrect on that. Because that is totalitarianism, and you certainly must be against that. This being a web site about Democracy and all that.

Arguing against our freedoms is the most certain way to lose them.

Occupy IS a movement against dire political issues.

Perhaps you're not seeing "chili" in there, as you appear to be dead-set upon using details to distract from the issue presented.

My comrades, who are fighting for -your- rights and for redress of grievances, thank you for your support and compassion. I thank you for your "concern".

Goodbye.

[boppers]

145. Basically, the last 200 years have sided with 1st amendment *limits* on speech.

(Oh, and this website is about the democratic party, not direct democracy, or the philosophy of democracy).

In the chili framework:
US society has decided that you cannot publicly serve unsafe food. They've also decided the the public should be taxed to provided for public benefits. They've also decided that political protest which does not infringe upon others should be allowed.

So, if you want a chili cookoff, great! Get your food handling permits, pass food inspections, pay your taxes if you charge for the chili, and get site permits so it doesn't disrupt the rights of others.

That's not the "police" making up rules, that's the democracy deciding against anarchy, and the resulting exploitation of the gullible. The police are just a portion of the enforcement of the rules that democracy has already created.

If you flip the gameboard, and allow absolute freedom, where any person can make, and sell, anything they want, with no regulation, no policing, no permits, you get people poisoned, ecosystems trashed, economies wrecked, and the corrupt with even *more* power than they already have.

If you are against democracy creating any rules, well, that 1st amendment is a Democratically created rule, so you kind of cancel it out.

[tledford]

63. He probably didn't do anything to deserve it...

...but these things happen in banana republics.

[randome]

69. Why do you keep thinking that DUers want to see anyone injured?

It's a ludicrous idea and posting a picture without explanation is equally ludicrous. If someone hadn't provided an explanation FOR you, you apparently were not willing to give us any information.

This all sounds very Republican -find evidence of something and use it to paint an entire group of people as 'evil'. "Get the guvmint off my lawn!" kind of crap.

So my question to you and yours is this: what are you going to do about it? Continue to whine?

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!"

Other than pulling still shots from Google, what are you going to do about what you perceive to be an organized police state and cops having nothing better to do than to herd cats?

So tell us...what are you going to do?

I have a suggestion. How about the next time a protest is planned, have representatives from the protesters meet with the police and plan on how to conduct things?

Of course that would require leaders and organization and we have seen precious little of that lately.

[pinboy3niner]

72. You obviously don't have a fucking clue

What is Fire going to do about it? Unlike you, Fire has BEEN in the streets, protesting. I know that because I've met him there, and we've protested together, as we have with other DUers in L.A.

Who are we going to believe--you, who cast asparagus from your armchair, or the many DUers who are out in the streets?

Bah!

[randome]

73. Who the hell am I casting aspersion to?

I asked a question. Everyone likes to complain about the system but are you going to do anything else about it?

This is no different from O'Keefe videotaping someone at Acorn and then using that to get the entire organization shut down.

I ask the question again -what are you going to do about this other than post on DU? If it truly is that important to you -and I agree police brutality is something to get angry about- then what will you do about it?

On edit:
I think it's too difficult to get one's mind around that it will take much more complex activities than taking pictures to make a change. And I agree that it is a complex issue -one that requires meeting with police on a regular basis, perhaps. Trying to get more police training put into place. I don't have all the answers, I freely admit that. Do you have anything to add to the conversation besides, 'Police are evil'?

And the OP's subject line clearly implies that people at DU think someone DESERVES to get their head bashed. That is total cluelessness right there.

[pinboy3niner]

76. Nice try, but no sale

Occupiers HAVE been protesting against police brutality (and all you have to do is google Occupy Oakland if you have any doubts). And here in L.A., Fire and U4ikLefty and coalition__unwilling and other DUers and I have been protesting police brutality.

And your O'Keefe comparison is ludicrous on its face. Here, in our Occupy movement, we never even entertained the idea of dressing in furs.

[randome]

77. Protesting against police violence against protesters doesn't appear to be working.

Not if we're getting ever closer to a national police state, as many have claimed.

What about the idea of meeting with the police BEFORE a protest and working out details? Has it been tried?

And I appreciate the fact that you bother to respond at all. Too many others want to shut out opinions that don't march lock step with theirs.

[pinboy3niner]

79. You asked what we're doing, and I told you what we're doing

And yes, we are getting closer to a police state. You may have seen ny thread positing that we are not a police state--yet. But there is no question that we are moving in that direction.

I have to LOL at your suggestion that protesters do not meet with police in advance of demonstrations. That has been de rigeur for ages. I had a friend with
vietnam Veterans Against the War who had meetings with the police back in '71. "Has it been tried?" LOL!

Still, I do appreciate your response. I recently went over the top at you, and I shouldn't have. I'd just lost a good friend, and I was very upset. Still, I make no apology for coming back at you when you constantly piss on and undermine the Occupy movement. That is really fucked up, especially here at DU.

[treestar]

140. Is is not "pissing on" the protestors to point out that the

police are not evil in and of themselves. And it's not always "police brutality" when something happens at these events. Crowds are inherently dangerous. People can get stomped and caught up in a wave. There's no reason to piss all over the community for trying to prevent that by sending cops.

[sabrina 1]

104. Yes!

What about the idea of meeting with the police BEFORE a protest and working out details? Has it been tried?

Yes, many times, and it has worked in some instances. I assumed you knew something about this topic since you've bee posting so much here. You just said nothing was working. That tells me you have not followed this story at all.

Oddly enough, the Chicago PD was very cooperative with the protesters when they first began to occupy. I believe I posted reports and photos of the police and the protesters working together. Do you know what changed that to what we saw this weekend?

[librechik]

96. was the aparagus steamed or grilled? n/t

steamed, I bet

[treestar]

139. What is the purpose of being out in the streets?

Sometimes it appears as if the purpose is to get the cops involved and then blame the cops.

How come we aren't hearing of any grounds for protest?

It dulls the effect of protest to just be out there for some vague reason and to try to start something with the cops. It seems people are they because they hate cops with some of these threads.

I keep asking, a crowd can be dangerous to be in, what if there is an accident or a stomping? We're then going to hear about how the cops were wrong to allow it to happen, right? Just seems more like an irrational hatred of one particular profession at work.

[suffragette]

144. To the posters not believing he was struck by baton, here's confirmation from Getty Images

http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2012/05/nato.html

CHICAGO, IL (May 21, 2012) – At least one photographer was arrested and another struck over the head Sunday while covering anti-war protesters marching in opposition to the NATO summit in Chicago.

Details are sparse, but photographs posted on Twitter and other Web sites show Getty Images freelance photographer Joshua Lott being arrested on Sunday night,while another photograph shows Getty's Scott Olson with blood streaming down his face.

Earlier reports on multiple Web sites Monday suggested that Olson had been hit over the head with a police baton. Jodi Einhorn, a public relations manager for Getty Images, told News Photographer magazine on Monday afternoon that she can confirm that Olson was indeed struck over the head with a police baton.




You are now free to continue your regular broadcasting of other reasons to doubt or blame the journalists and/or protesters.

[boppers]

146. So, somebody who wasn't there, with no actual knowledge, or evidence, has "confirmed" it?

Splendid!

I wonder how many things I can "confirm" today?

[suffragette]

148. Well, didn't take you long - lol

Somebody who is in the official capacity of verifying information and making official statements for Getty made that statement.

Her contact info looks to be readily available, so you could easily contact her and grill her about it if you choose.
Here's just one article in which it's included, in a statement confirming the death of a Getty photographer in Libya:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&tkr=GYI:US&sid=ayDGrWHyy7sw

[boppers]

149. My father was a PR flack for the Mormon (CoJCoLDS) church.

I know how these things work, so forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical, and not easily swayed by "mouthpieces".

[U4ikLefty]

153. Your dad was a Mormon mouthpiece so you "know how these things work"...too funny.

Tell me does marijuana cause overdose deaths?

[boppers]

154. Only in absurdly high concentrations.

Most are not practical in real life without a decent laboratory to concentrate substances, or otherwise having access to a highly (badum-tiss) concentrated form. It's quite possible, but also quite difficult for the average casual user.

Most marijuana "attributable" deaths tend to be more mundane, and typical, involving cars, falls, etc.... the usual "They were high and did something stupid" problems that go with most substances that alter thinking.

Yes, I know how these PR things work, somebody will say something quite wrong (for example: "It's impossible to overdose on marijuana" or "marijuana can't kill anybody&quot , assuming that nobody will ever check out the actual facts, because PR spin is their weapon... not science, not evidence, just easily accepted truisms that happen to be false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol#Toxicity

So, getting back to your question: "does marijuana cause overdose deaths?", the answer is it *could*, and *has*, but only under highly specific circumstances, using highly concentrated forms, in rare cases.

Do you think poppies cause overdose deaths? How about heroin, which comes from poppies, and is highly refined?

[U4ikLefty]

156. Here I give you the BS that is boppers.

For more fun do a search on DU2 about boppers' "opinion" on MJ overdose deaths.

This is your rational thinker.

BTW boppers, why don't you cite one of your MJ overdose deaths as an example.

[randome]

147. 'Details are sparse...'

Sorry, but you have to admit that's not much of a confirmation.

[suffragette]

159. Actually I don't. You can contact the Getty PR person yourself through the links in post #148

if you want to inquire about what led her to confirm this.

[randome]

161. I would think that if you want to support your premise, you would do this.

I'm not implying anything. The OP is. So you or he should go to that trouble.

Give us information if you want to be persuasive.

[suffragette]

162. I believe that person so I have no need for doing that

I think enough info has been presented for a reasonable person to make a conclusion.
You have doubts. Confirm them or not, play games or not - that's all your choice.

But I care not to dance to your tune.

[Fire Walk With Me]

157. Damn...thanks :(

[suffragette]

163. Thanks for your substantive contributions

here and elsewhere on DU.

[WriteWrong]

150. The thing that shocks me are the bizarre lies the pro-police posters make up to justify the violence

It's obviously easier to make stuff up and say "I don't know what he did. Maybe he's a child-raping cult leader. Can you prove he's not?" than it is to look him up and find out exactly what he did

googling "scott olson getty images may 20" (i.e. the basic information from the OP) provides dozens of stories, as well as a bunch of background as to who Mr. Olson is and what he did before this. Certainly more than I needed to know.

A more rational discussion group would delete as trolls all the "maybe he's some evil criminal" posts.

[randome]

155. I suppose the 'evil criminal' posts are...where?

'child-raping cult leader'? Too funny. You should have stopped at 'I don't know what he did.' Although most of the questions you seem to disdain appear to be more in the line of 'I don't know what happened.'

So tell us, please, how did he get his injury? And what he did BEFORE doesn't seem too relevant to me.

We get it. You think the guy is superb. Now, tell us, do you know how he got his injury?

[sabrina 1]

169. Are you talking about the photo journalist? He got his injury from a police baton it has now been

established, and it required a visit to the hospital. Why, does that surprise you? After all the innocent people who have been beaten by the police? I believe Getty has confirmed this, or other media airc. I thought it was already posted in this thread.

Did you know that Reporters Without Borders have been documented the police attacks on Reporters since the beginning of OWS? Did you know that because of these egregious violations of the 1st Amendment, especially relating to the press, the two of the most respected organizations have down rated the US's placement on the World Free Press chart to #47. What is the point you are trying to make? No one disputes the brutality of the police towards the press during these protests. Do some research, we should be ashamed that this is happening here. Surely no one here is defending it.

[randome]

170. You're absolutely correct. No one at DU is defending police brutality.

But a picture was posted without any explanation other than to take the OP's word for it that this occurred as the result of some sort of 'crackdown' on journalists. I guess that was the point.

Which started this huge thread that meandered all over the place and, as someone pointed out, the text of the current OP has little resemblance to the original OP.

Posting pictures of people with blood on their heads doesn't really add much to a discussion.

If you want to convince anyone of something, post facts.

[sabrina 1]

171. It did not have to meander all over the place. Most of us simply looked for the story and easily

found his ID and several reports from various sources as to how he, and btw, another Getty journalist, were injured/arrested or both. If people are unwilling to simply do their own research that is on them.

It's been over a week now so there are plenty of reports, so it seems to me that anyone who has not read through the thread, where the info was posted or done their own research, simply isn't interested in the facts but wants to, I don't know, what DO they want"

Since you missed it though, here's one source and there are plenty of others. Btw, this is one of two Getty Journalists who were there, the other was also arrested and yes, there is plenty of information on that story also.

Chicago Police Accused of Targeting Journalists During Nato Protests

Some journalists were injured in clashes between demonstrators and police. Max Braverman, a self-described citizen journalist, suffered cuts to his head Sunday afternoon as police attempted to disperse thousands of protesters following a veterans for peace rally he was documenting.

Scott Olson, a photographer with Getty, was hit on the head with a police baton on Sunday. Another Getty photographer, Joshua Lott, was arrested, too.

That story is one week old, so not sure why people are still 'meandering all over the thread' and have still not checked out the OP for themselves.

So back to the question the OP asked: 'What did this guy do to deserve what happened to him'?

Can you answer that question now that you know, he was a journalist covering a news story, unarmed, not threatening anyone, just doing his job? Why was he hit on the head by a cop? Why was his colleague roughed and arrested while showing his Press Card?

[sabrina 1]

168. Well, there's really no point in anyone lying to protect them. The cases are reaching the courts now

from the false arrests, and so far the cops have been caught lying under oath in the first two cases which were dismissed. It's hard to lie about that when it's on the record. Imagine that, cops arresting people on false pretenses and then lying under oath even when there is so much evidence against them, on film. What that told everyone watching was that they do it so often, they have been accustomed to getting away with it. But OWS knew this, which is why they film everything, and document the names of the protesters being arrested and the arresting officers. They prepared for this at the beginning.

Don't know how you can defend a cop falsely arresting people then lying under oath about it. I want to see anyone try to defend this.