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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsmom makes daughter post embarrassing photo as punishment
the girl is obviously crying in the picture. what do you think?
ReShonda Tate Billingsley, Mother, Creates Unique Facebook Punishment After Daughter Posts Alcohol-Related Photos
While the rise of social media has certainly created new ways for children to get themselves in trouble, it's also given parents a whole new set of tools to reel in their kids. A recent Facebook post, first highlighted by BuzzFeed, serves as a wonderful example of this.
After author ReShonda Tate Billingsley found her daughter posting alcohol-related photos to the social network, she came up with a very original, and no doubt effective, form of punishment.
Following up the post her mother deemed inappropriate is a new photo that features the young girl holding a hand-written sign that reads, "Since I want to post photos of me holding liquor I am obviously not ready for social media and will be taking a hiatus until I learn what I should + should not post. BYE-BYE."
Rough.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/18/reshonda-tate-billingsley-daughter-alcohol-photos-facebook_n_1528542.html
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bluestate10
(10,942 posts)
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)The mom wins the battle, yes. But she may lose the war. Humiliating a child in front of her peers breaks a bond of trust between parent and child. Parents are supposed to support their children, not tear them down. She can take away the computer or put a block on facebook. There is no need to publicly humiliate. Parents are supposed to teach children to respect boundaries. What did this mom teach her daughter about the boundary that family members should have when it comes to not humiliating each other in public? That it doesn't matter, that's what. This daughter will likely find ways to retaliate.
DLevine
(1,791 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)with a young girl appearing on social media with alcohol. This punishment fits the crime. Remember, in today's society, the MOTHER could go to jail or lose her daughter for allowing her to get liquor.
Bravo, Mom.
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)Then maybe she should have locked the liquor up. That is what responsible parents do. This mom is on a power trip and her daughter is suffering for it. Humiliation of a child is psychological abuse.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)
KitBitBack
(4 posts)When I was growing up, I was expected to apologies and make up for my bad behavior! How is this any different then me telling my peers I was grounded or not aloud to use the phone? When I was ten I stole candy from a very large, crowded local store. When my Mother found out what I had done she marched me right back down there and forced me to give back the candy to the store manager and made me apologies to him...in front of the whole store! Darned right I never forgot it! And I never stole anything again! Way to go Mom for making a horrible mistake into a great learning experience! She will certainly think twice about drinking as well as what she posts on the internet! Everyone here seems to think that her apology post is some how going to psychologically scar her, what about the original pictures? Those will be much more haunting in the long run! What if the next time, not only does she decide to make bad decisions and drink and take pictures but she does it with out her clothes or while driving or something truly dangerous? I think she will absolutely think twice about what she puts out into the world from now on!
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)Punishment should fit the crime. In this case, taking away the computer for a fixed period of time would have accomplished the same thing. In the case of stealing from a store - having to go back and make apologies to the store owner is fitting. What if, what if. You can what if all day. You are more likely to get the what if if you overreact and unnecessarily humiliate a child. Children have a strong sense of fairness. When a parent overreacts and abuses their power as parent they resent it. Why would you want that? By the way, there is no evidence that she took a drink.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)until something serious results from it.
She get's one "oh you're such a precious snowflake and I cherish your independence and would never dream of making you feel bad, but maybe don't . . " speech after another until she wraps the car around a tree and ends up paralyzed or dead. Or worse, takes someone else out in the process.
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)Last edited Tue May 22, 2012, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)
That's gotta be a record, three strawmen in one sentence.
And even if she were doing all that, this is NOT an effective way to deal with the problem. A child who is getting drunk is not going to stop because her mother humiliates her and in fact it is likely to make the problem worse rather than better. This is NOT "tough love", it is meanness.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)Last edited Wed May 23, 2012, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)
I agree w/you. I would only add that public humiliation is not only ineffective, but hypocritical.
One poster described this case as a sort of eye-for-an-eye type 'punishment', in that the young woman humiliated the family, thus it is okay to humiliate her. Uhm, no. If perceived humiliation is wrong for the family it is also just as wrong to keep that same ball rolling by humiliating her.
It literally makes no sense. Your suggestions otoh do.
azmom
(5,208 posts)would retaliate for sure. I would never do something like this to my daughter. It's frustrating dealing with teenagers, but one has to be the adult in the relationship. I totally agree yellocaine it is abuse of parental power.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)Or is it just hit and run?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Off to bigger and better threads..
I'm pretty sure this poor girl will be just fine 
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)It is so stupid of us to even talk about the merits of this kind of parenting then, because "this poor girl" will be fine, according to Snooper2. What impeccable logic! 
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)
derby378
(30,262 posts)Do I really need to go into detail about all those assholes out there just looking for drunk teenage girls they can take advantage of?
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I'd like to know how old the girl is though.
And the tears don't affect me, I'd bet she's crying because she got caught.
Neue Regel
(221 posts)(or in addition), she's crying because her mom just told her no more computer and no more smart phone.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)If he couldn't play video games online with his friends or upload his videos, I think he would whither away and die.
(Just kidding, of course)
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...this seems to be quite a traumatizing way to make a point.
Thus, I'll conclude with....
"Dear Ms Tate Billingsley, Thank you for being present enough in your daughter's life to have noticed this photo and, further, to have wanted to take some action. However, the approach you chose to correct the behavior or to leave an impression may have done more harm than other effective parenting measures would have."
"I wish you and your family well, especially your daughter, and please thing twice or three times or seek some outside and/or professional guidance before humiliating your daughter again."
"Sincerely, NYC_SKP"
(with deep sadness for the child)
~
`
Control-Z
(15,686 posts)In fact, if more parents were as creative there might be less pressure for kids to join and/or compete with their peers in this and other dangerous ways.
My daughter was acting out in the waiting room of the doctor's office, using foul language and disrupting everyone within hearing distance. I was ready to drag her butt out when she was finally called back to see the doctor. When she continued with the obnoxious language in front of the woman who was taking us back I apologized and told her my daughter had tourettses syndrome. I've never seen a kid shut up so fast. (She does not have tourettes, btw.) She was so embarrassed she never pulled anything quite like that again in public. At least not with me.
LiberalFighter
(53,544 posts)Control-Z
(15,686 posts)That is what made it an experience to remember. She thought she was the one in control of the situation. 
I laughed so hard I almost wet myself. (after, though it wa difficult to contain myself in the office).
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)She made me take it back and apologize.
This seems much the same thing.
Embarrasment is not a fatal condition. Underage drinking very well could be.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)The same thing would be if your mom had taken you to the town square and made you make a public apology to everybody, and then open you up to all their ridicule after. Ridicule that wouldn't stop for the rest of your life because the moment was preserved there for all time.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Sheesh, that really puts thing like poverty, terminal illnesses, child abuse, violent injury, parent abandonment, etc. into better perspective. Glad you were here to sort it out for us.
Good night.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)and make her a laughing stock? Just part of the punishment?
underseasurveyor
(6,428 posts)There are boys that find out she likes alcohol and they give her some, as in too much, and then rape her because she's drunk and/or passed out?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Ya know, like rational parents do.
underseasurveyor
(6,428 posts)Because you don't agree with her choice of punishment.
That's a pretty harsh standard and dare I say, an irrational one.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)That is my opinion.
underseasurveyor
(6,428 posts)entitled to it 
KitBitBack
(4 posts)Isn't the photo that will follow her around for the rest of her life the one SHE posted first of her with bottles of alcohol? Let's not forget what the really damaging photo is here!
underseasurveyor
(6,428 posts)Chalk it up to dumb stuff teens do. She's is lucky to have a mother that is not afraid to intervene and cares.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If the girl was drinking in high school, she has a certain amount of high school cachet.
But the attitude you've described gives bullies legitimacy and power, as if what they do is legitimate and they are not to be 'provoked."
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Last edited Tue May 22, 2012, 10:34 AM - Edit history (2)
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Try teaching your kids to have a thicker skin.
Punch bullies in the gut. Eventually they'll learn.
Talk to school officials ad make them be part of the solution of school bullying rather than part of the problem.
Or... get a little creative, instead of whining.
Good day to you.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Toughen her up a little.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)First get a Chihuahua and a large room....
Sheesh....
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and he turned into a good man because of it. The reason why children are out of control in the United States is because people are too soft with the youngsters.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I think people make overmuch of FB and its public nature. Nobody cares about our FB pages but a few of our friends. Not even all of the FB friends follow our page with bated breath.
shraby
(21,946 posts)not proper...also what is proper behavior for a teenager, and drinking is not.
Robb
(39,665 posts)I don't know how well humiliating children works at teaching them things. I mean I remember being embarrassed as a child for various reasons, parent-caused and otherwise. But I don't recall it necessarily making me a better person. 
SWTORFanatic
(385 posts)criticize parents, grandparents, teachers, school officials for every decision they make?
Yeah there are some obvious ones that are no-nos like beating a kid or sending him or her to bed without dinner, but come on. Nothing wrong with punishments like this IMHO.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)And I think this one is very wrong.
SWTORFanatic
(385 posts)if social media was taken away and she got back on it...
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)The mom could have taken the social media without humiliating the child. The humiliation was just meanness and an abuse of power. It breaks trust between parent and child. If this is indicative of how the mom interacts with her daughter on a day to day basis, it definitely will scar her for life. Family members should hot humiliate each other in private yet alone in public. Ever. Period. It damages relationships.
SWTORFanatic
(385 posts)taking social media away would have been fine.
However, do you know how many kids these days will find ways to go on the computer even without the parent's consent? I used to do this 18-19 years ago when I was 13. I would go on this one BBS (similar to a website) to play an online game every night after midnight until about 1am even on school nights. Even after my mother caught me I did it again.
Also, the humiliation is not going to scar snowflake for life... my father was physically abusive to me and I disowned him when I was 15 - not justifying his behavior but the sign punishment was MILD in comparison and what my father did did not scar me for life. Since I disowned him I've been fine.
yellowcanine
(36,776 posts)
patrice
(47,992 posts)Better an appropriate "scar" that contributes to a little muscle that will protect her, than pretending that lying for social rewards, especially social rewards associated with dangerous substances, can't result in some critical, even fatal, scars and slavery later.
marlakay
(13,257 posts)My oldest daughter has a 15 & 13 yr old and she said, want to be on FB fine give me the password, and my son n law who is less busy than my manager daughter who also cooks and cleans, checks what they write.
They also have cell phones, son n law paid extra for some gps tracking thing, they caught the kids a few times where they weren't suppose to be and put on restriction.
My daughter was a bit wild in high school, I had my hands full. Julie tells me her having teens is pay back for stuff she did. But because of it she has eyes very open.
I think it would be hard to be a parent now.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)had to deal with a teenager with Facebook. Mom in this case sounds desperate to set her kid on the right path, my guess is this isn't the first Facebook infraction. Although, publicly humiliating her probably isn't going to get the intended results.I just see a desperate parent with a kid who's not being age appropriate, that's scary for any parent.
TrollBuster9090
(6,123 posts)publicly humiliating her is another.
The fact that this is posted on HuffPost is proof of that. Punishing her by grounding her and taking away her computer and her account would have made the point. But THIS is going to follow this girl around for life. Why not just put her in a block in the town square and let the townfolk throw rotten tomatoes at her, or sew a scarlet letter on her shirt and make her wear it around, like the good old days in the 17th century? At least those humiliations could be forgotten. But this humiliating photo could very well be her only 15 minutes of fame, and it could screw up her life and development from now on. Like it or not, she's 'the girl holding the "I'm an idiot" sign' from now on.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)Publicly humiliating your child is disgraceful. There are much better ways to deal with this. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)This reminds me a bit of the father who shot his daughters computer a little ways back when she dared to speak badly of them on facebook and posted a video of it on youtube. It was a childish temper tantrum on the part of the parent, and this strikes me as more of the same. And the sad part is who knows what kind of long term damage this may lead to.
Yavin4
(37,182 posts)That's the point of the punishment. To show her that posting has consequences.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)You don't public humiliate your child as punishment. There are much better ways to handle it. For example, grounding her and having a discussion about the risks involved with drinking and explaining why she is too young. That would have accomplished far more than this childish act by the girl's mother.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Underage drinking very well could be.
If this is the cruelest thing that ever happens to this child, then she'll be living a very priviliged life indeed.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)There were significantly better options available for dealing with the situation that didn't involve public humiliation and would have had the same if not better chance of achieving the objective without many of the possible negative repercussions of this move.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)I doubt the mom would be praised for beating her daughter.
This seems the more humane/effective way.
pa28
(6,145 posts)It's public humiliation and it's going to stick with the kid long after the lesson is learned.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)respects.
Someday, when this girl is applying for a job and that job is doing a check on her, this picture will come up. Someday, this girls future adult friends and prospective significant others will see this picture.
adigal
(7,581 posts)or change her name. This will only follow her because of the worriers who are wringing their hands over this, and posting it all over the place.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)that are also permanent.
Which is worse: having one picture of yourself drinking and one picture of yourself being punished for drinking (or holding a bottle, whatever) at 13 or not learning this important lesson until you're looking for a job and having all sorts of idiotic pictures out there (forever) of you misbehaving in your 20's.
I would think a future employer/spouse/etc would be more forgiving of this sort of "permanent shaming" then they would of a series of such events perpetrated by the girl well in to her adulthood.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The adult should act like an adult and make mature decisions.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)That what you put on the internet can be embarrassing and it's not something you should do casually?
That would be a horrible lesson for this girl to learn, right?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Let's review: she was forced to post this as punishment because it is embarrassing. In the process she was forced to think about the fact that all her friends and family could see this potentially forever. Those are good lessons.
How does that translate to "smart behavior"? Smart as a punishment sure. But for her to engage in voluntarily? That's like saying that spanking a kid teaches them to spank themselves because you make it seem fun. Seriously your argument has a huge gap between facts and conclusion where logic would normally reside.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)If I tell kids "You really shouldn't drink" as I guzzle beer, or "you really shouldn't smoke" as I contentedly puff on a cigarette, you can bet thatmost of them will get the wrong message.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)the mom isn't saying it's cool for her (the mom) to post such pictures but not for her kid.
She's saying it's wrong to post pictures of her drinking underage, period.
Canuckistanian
(42,290 posts)If you're going to punish, fine. But public humiliation crosses the line when applied to a kid.
She made a mistake. But the picture (and the hurt caused by this) will last a lifetime.
treestar
(82,383 posts)because now we have short attention spans and there will be new shiny objects daily. I had forgotten about laptop dad until this thread. There's too much available out there now - back when I was a teen it wasn't even possible for a mere punishment of a teen for misbehavior could be made available to the national media. I do think the punishment gets more attention than the drinking, though, so a simple grounding from the internet would have sufficed.
Raine
(31,171 posts)there is nothing amusing about it. My boyfriend's sister was killed by a drunk and I don't find it cute, smart or funny to post alcohol pictures. Better her tears now than after herself or someone else is injuried or killed because of alcohol.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)There are much better ways to handle it and the child's mother handled this very poorly.
Liquorice
(2,066 posts)hate themselves and should never be used as discipline.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)This mother could have done so many other things.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)I'm not sure if this was all the parents did, but this public humiliation does not address the issue of her daughter beginning to show interest in alcohol. Superficial or not, I don't see how the possibility that the daughter wants to drink, or does drink is addressed in this particular punishment.
I wonder if it is about her. Maybe she fears that other parents have or will see it and will judge her?
Regardless, IMO the relationship to the substance matters more than the photo.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)The only message this girl is learning is not to post incriminating pictures. They didn't address the drinking. Doesn't seem like an appropriate punishment to me.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)"since I want to post pictures of myself holding liquor"
I don't know what her household is like, but couldn't that be interpreted as drinking it is okay- just don't tell anyone? That is a message I got when I was growing up with an alcoholic father.
I should also point out that I would disagree with a sign that said she went to rehab too.
That's not just humiliation, she will probably lose friends because parents don't want their kids to have anything to do with her. The social world of teenagers is distressing enough. The last thing any teenager needs is to lose friends.
adigal
(7,581 posts)in risky behavior, like drinking and perhaps sex, which often go together. Get some nice new friends who haven't seen her Facebook page.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)If she does already have "nice" friends those are the ones she will lose.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)
malaise
(295,642 posts)She'll learn
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Tho it may not be the lesson mom was hoping for.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)
Selatius
(20,441 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)with alcohol on Facebook. It seems they would learn, but they don't. Narcissism of the teen years, they keep on doing it.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)She thought a good senior prank would be to hold a fake columbine.
Even more stupid when you know that 2 boys, same class, same school, were arrested and expelled after a lengthy facebook exchange about how they would go about doing a "columbine" including how they would kill the safety officer a couple months back.
Kids have almost no filter on what is appropriate to post online. Parents need to not only be friended to their kids, but to also have all passwords.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)the logic of "we can't punish them if they get caught because then they'll just try harder not to get caught" makes any sort of parenting impossible.
meti57b
(3,584 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts) eqfan592
(5,963 posts)And no, it's not really. It's public humiliation all over again.
jp11
(2,104 posts)it isn't that this is necessarily so 'harsh' she's crying over it but it could be I don't claim total understanding of this young kid.
The stupid thing is the mother punishes her by having her write out what she did, and what the mother rightly objects to, the liquor pictures. It would have been as effective to leave the liquor reference in the note OUT and just had her post a note or the stupid picture with her in it saying the same thing.
Bad enough that there are pictures of her posing with liquor but now there is this picture posted on the internet for future employers to find/etc. Just pictures of her with alcohol wouldn't be as bad because lots of stupid kids do it and who pays attention to that alone. This picture and the story brought the attention of bloggers/internet news aggregate sites sealing her name to the images and activity she's punished with.
The only reason to put that in the note and have her in the picture is for the mom to try and scare other kids into not doing this kind of thing. I don't agree with that extreme, taking your kid off a social network site is fine even making them do something embarrassing to learn a lesson is fine but trying to scare other kids I think crosses a line.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Good job, mom.
SpartanDem
(4,533 posts)is going to kill her. I really don't think this reaches to the level traumatization like some claim.
KitBitBack
(4 posts)I think some of you should look up the term humiliation and abuse. What this Mother did does not fall under either description. A little bit emarrassing, maybe, but I bet if asked this girl is NOT crying about the embarrassment but about the punishment of no more WWW!
underseasurveyor
(6,428 posts)They post FAR more embarrassing (they just don't realize it at the time) and compromising things about themselves than this. A little humility now may save this young girl from a whole lotta grief later. This 13 year old girl is bragging that she thinks alcohol is cool.
I wish I had a mom that paid half as much attention to me and what I was doing as a teen. Might have saved me from a lot of agony and Hell growing up. For my 13th birthday? I dropped acid for the first time. My mother was too self absorbed and un-involved to care about what I was getting into.
I say good for this mom.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)The kid's gonna learn to lie. Don't see how this addresses the actual issue at hand - drinking.
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)
KitBitBack
(4 posts)trumad
(41,692 posts)Don't air your dirty laundry.
I would never humiliate my kids like this.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)She loves her child so much she did what was necessary to send a message. There are consequences for actions, and the punishment fits perfectly.
This child will grow up to become a strong, responsible woman.
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)
deutsey
(20,166 posts)Lilyeye
(1,417 posts)The daughter posted public images of herself with alcohol and now she is being made to publicly show her punishment. Maybe she will think twice about her actions now.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)I don't think what the mom did was particularly wrong or heinous, but I would've made the punishment something between me and my child.
If broadcasting the punishment is what a parent wants to do, so be it (within reason). However, philosophically I don't feel the need to incorporate media into everything I do and would prefer handling things like this offline in a more interpersonal way.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)My 2 year old cries all the time.....that doesn't make her right.
Congrats to the Mom here for taking the initiative and looking out for her daughter. She obviously has a lot to learn.
MineralMan
(151,159 posts)I don't know much of anything about what led to this particular punishment. Because of that, I don't know whether it will be an effective way to deal with a difficult situation or will do harm. So, I'm not going to say it's right or it's wrong. Not enough information.
uppityperson
(116,015 posts)make a value judgement.
I don't know the child, the mother, the family, the situation beyond the tiny bit in the article. So how can I judge?
Best of luck to all parents of pre and teens and all pre and teens everywhere. It is a time when you act oddly and are treated oddly. Good luck.
MineralMan
(151,159 posts)very differently, based on our individual personalities. I was the most headstrong and resistant to taking direction, so they used more direct strategies with me. My sister was a very compliant, biddable person, and it took little to get her to go in the right directions. My younger brother was somewhere in between. We all ended up being OK people.
treestar
(82,383 posts)it will get more attention than the pic with the alcohol did. Ground the kid from social media without the photo might make more sense.
adigal
(7,581 posts)The mother could go to JAIL for her daughter having liquor, so I think that this punishment fits the crime. She is crying?? Her mother would be crying if she OD'd on alcohol, or she, herself, was arrested.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Is the actual problem that the mother is embarrassed that her parenting has been negligent by allowing her 13 year old has access to liquor? Many parents punish kids out of embarrassment of how their kids behavior will affect perceptions of them.
In my house, it was- drink all the beer you want- just don't tell anyone. How she was able to get the liquor to pose with is a relevant question. It's possible that there is a lot more to this story. 13 year olds who experiment with drugs and alcohol usually have observed usage.
lynne
(3,118 posts)Sometimes it takes some tough-love to get an important message across. I'm guessing the young lady won't forget this lesson and I hope she turns herself around. At least her mother cares and is trying to head her in the right direction.
TBF
(36,534 posts)I am middle-aged now with 2 kids under 10 and I still cannot believe how many people in this world are so mean to their children.
Take away the computer for a day or two - much more effective than making her a laughing-stock in her school.
adigal
(7,581 posts)for a young girl who posted pics of herself with alcohol?? She is 13!!! That is a serious offense. "A day or two"? Really??
I think what this girl did has serious consequences and the punishment needs to be serious and appropriate, which is what this is. And I am NOT mean to my kids. My 21 year old Ivy League student just said that he can't even remember us even yelling at him more than a few times in his youth. But you know, he was generally good because he KNEW that we would enforce consequences for bad behavior. Our job is to raise our kids to be good citizens, and not enforcing appropriate consequences doesn't do it.
TBF
(36,534 posts)Define "good citizen". I'd define that as someone who is anti-violence (including anti-war), kind to others (all others - not just white christian others), environmentally conscious, and considers themselves a citizen of the world. My "job" as a parent is to teach them patience, tolerance, respect for others.
If I saw my daughter with alcohol on Facebook I would first ask myself how I let that happen (where was she, how did she get there, where was the supervision?). But then having children is not a power trip for me.
ETA - Just noticed your Ivy reference - I have a master's degree (undergrad one of the public ivy's - degree in Child & Family Studies) and my husband has a law degree (undergrad Harvard). So if you want to throw around initials I can play that game too ... but I think it is pretty meaningless when it comes to determining whether your children are being treated decently & how they are learning to treat others by watching your example.
There are much better ways to handle this type of situation than to publicly humiliate your child.
adigal
(7,581 posts)I hope my Ivy league son comes out less condescending than you are. That has always been my worry - that he would be an arrogant know-it-all like you so obviously are. But he is fine. Kind, caring, a very liberal kid.
And since you are such a bigshot, why are you on DU during the day?? Shouldn't you be using your Masters degree to save the world?
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)You are the one who brought up your son's Ive League education despite the fact that it had nothing to do with the conversation.
adigal
(7,581 posts)and that I was very reasonable with my son, who didn't end up being a druggie on the corner, yet I thought this was not unreasonable to do to this girl.
Thank you, though, for misunderstanding and defending poor little Ivy League girl.
TBF
(36,534 posts)Very interesting.
adigal
(7,581 posts)So please - butt out.
TBF
(36,534 posts)I am the one you are corresponding with, perhaps you thought you were speaking to White Wolf. At any rate I didn't mean to be condescending. You responded to my comment in the thread - I didn't initiate this discussion with you.
But you did start the discussion so I will not shy away from responding that I don't agree with your parenting philosophy. That is not personal, that is a difference in philosophy. I also do not agree with sexist speech as in referring to women as girls (whether it is a male or female doing the referring), which I will always comment on because juries seem to give it a pass.
TBF
(36,534 posts)And you are the one throwing around your child's degrees - YOU brought that up.
Many parents don't have the choice to be home with their children, but I do and I elected to exercise that choice. I'm surprised you wouldn't applaud that - usually your side is all for that.
I'm not liberal - I'm leftist. I don't believe in ownership, especially of children. I just do the best I can at teaching them. Teaching, not subjugating.
YMMV.
adigal
(7,581 posts)And again, what side do you think I am?? You have NO clue, but you are such a smart Ivy League condescending woman, you actually think you know.
Someone implied that this was cruel parenting. I said that my son, who is now an Ivy League student, so not out on the streets doing horrible things, reminded me that my husband and I never even yelled at them, so we were not cruel. And still, I think this punishment was appropriate.
So let me break this down:
1. Good son
2. Reasonable parents
3. Reasonable parents who think this punishment was NOT cruel
And come talk to me when your kids are in their late teens and early 20s and we shall see how well you did.
I am now done explaining what I meant to you, Miss Ivy League, who should have been smart enough to figure it out.
Enjoy your day. Go play with your kids and get off DU.
TBF
(36,534 posts)and you're wrong. Thanks for all the personal insults, you're a peach.
adigal
(7,581 posts)so you are welcome.
Again, be a good mom, get off the computer and go play with your kids.
TBF
(36,534 posts)My you are presumptuous, as well as insulting.
adigal
(7,581 posts)so I did assume they were young and at home.
TBF
(36,534 posts)They do come home from school - they are just not here now.
I did work when my oldest was young and the juggling is hard - when they are sick, getting off at a decent hour, not being able to spend as much time with them.
There are a lot of parents (male and female) who I know would rather be home if they had a choice and I wish we had an economic system which allowed parents to make that choice either way. Or make it at least easier to work part-time, in my experience there weren't too many jobs that paid a decently hourly rate for folks to be able to do that.
Anyway, just answering your question. They'll be home at 3.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)I just do the best I can at teaching them. Teaching, not subjugating. " You win the internet. This is the crux of the debate and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that parents don't own their children and should not be able to impose whatever ridiculous punishments they wish with no thought to long term consequences.
Aside from the philosophical issue you raised, there is also the simple fact that harsh punishment does not work. All it does is teach the kids to obey around their parents, when the are out of site they will do what they want. The mother did not address the real issue which are the risks involved with alcohol and instead decided to go on a powertrip and humiliate her daughter in front of the whole world.
TBF
(36,534 posts)but I do care about children. I was raised in a small town in which there was amazing amounts of both physical and emotional abuse of children. The issue is the same for me now as it was when I was a child. I don't think folks should be able to do that to each other. It certainly upsets authoritarian folks when I explain my philosophy, but that's not really a surprise.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)This mother is way out of line and I hate to see so many people here praising her. She isn't doing her daughter any favors, all she did was make her daughter's life harder and ruin any trust that was between them. This is a form of emotional abuse, perhaps a mild form, but it still should not be tolerated one bit.
patrice
(47,992 posts)the realm is alcohol.
It's a parent's job to authentically protect a child's freedom as she grows into it and a little objectivity about peer groups goes a long way in that regard, especially when learning experiences such as this do not have to happen in alienated isolation, but CAN occur in concert with other experiences that help a child integrate a newly acquired truth into the whole pattern of her life.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)When they're grounded for the day, and their friends knock on the door, I just tell the friends today is not a good day for playing.
If they want to tell their friends about it latter, then that is their choice.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)As I say upthreat, not everything needs to be broadcast to the world.
we can do it
(13,023 posts)the mom sounds pretty creative........
jwirr
(39,215 posts)called parenting.
heaven knows
(26 posts)I think that social media is creating children who are even more attention-getting and insecure. Is it humiliating? I fail to see how it would be. It seems a lot milder than those parents who make the kid stand on a corner and the sign says "I am a thief." At least she's not beating the kid!
siligut
(12,272 posts)Mother is just passing on her dysfunction to her child. I am surprised that some DUers agree with this.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)However, I've noticed when it comes to parenting a lot DUers tend to be as authoritarian and big on outrageous punishment as a lot of conservatives.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Conservatives are just sell-outs, they don't know how to live any other way. I generally hope progressives think for themselves.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Teenagers do not have fully developed brains so you really can't reason with them. And violence isn't an option.
But they are acutely aware of social cues.
TBF
(36,534 posts)many are capable of reasoning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development
I prefer positive methods of teaching, shaming only leads to other problems in my view.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)then shouldn't we try them as adults for crimes?
TBF
(36,534 posts)I guess my view is that it would depend upon the particular 13-yr old. People are going to develop cognitively at different ages, just as they do physically.
I was actually just writing a post about where the parents were at the time & why they weren't supervising the child. Another issue that isn't cut and dried - because obviously it's easier to supervise some kids than others.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)If she is mentally an adult (and thus can be reasoned with in lieu of humiliation) the she shouldn't need supervision.
If she is mentally a child (and thus must be supervised) then it would be wrong to punish her as you would an adult.
siligut
(12,272 posts)But not to teach them. You can stop a train by destroying the engine, but then you have a useless train. Mom obviously can't teach by example, nor does she expect anything other than obedience from her child, so shame was her "tool" of choice.
Where do you come up with this teenagers don't have fully developed brain stuff? What is a fully developed brain?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Research mostly:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2006/02/06.html
http://www.edinformatics.com/news/teenage_brains.htm
http://www.academic.marist.edu/mwwatch/fall05/science1.htm
And it's not like she was 17 and thus perhaps on the border of maturity. She was 13. Anyone who thinks a 13 year old is an adult does not know much about human development.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)If parents can't raise their children without resorting to shame and emotional abuse then they need to work on their parenting skills.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)anything that makes the kid feel bad.
Slapping their hand if they reach for a hot burner = physical abuse.
Yelling at them for being stupid = emotional abuse.
I guess kids today are smarter than they were when I was young, being able to raise themselves and all.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)The mother did not yell at her child for doing something stupid. She public humiliated her daughter for all the world to see and put it online, where it will never go away. There are much better ways to handle this. The punishment doesn't even address the root of the problem which is her daughter showing an interest in drinking. All the mother has done is taught her child to be more careful about getting caught in the future, she hasn't addressed the real issue.
Besides, all harsh punishment does is make the child scared of their parents and will make them obey when the parents are around. Positive reinforcement of correct behavior along with more mild punishments are much more effective teaching tools.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)The kid did something stupid and was punished. Should she have been rewarded?
How would that help?
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)A more appropriate and effective punishment would have been something like this. Ground the daughter for a week, but more importantly sit her down and discuss with her the risks and dangers involved with alcohol. Explain to her how dangerous it can be, explain to her the health risks and issues with drunk driving. Explain to her why posting pictures like this on Facebook, explain that there are some people out there who might try and get her drunk and take advantage of her. Talk to her about why she wants to drink. In other words address the root of the problem and not the symptom.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Not really anyway.
A lecture about social responsibility to a 13 year old warning of the risks down the road? That will be as wildly successful as all those abstinence only programs.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)Is being unable to see your friends, watch TV, get online, play videogames, etc. not a punishment? I know it isn't quite the powertrip of publicly humiliating your daughter, but I'd think it counts as a real punishment. My discussion, not a lecture there is a big difference, would have been far more effective at addressing the real problem than what this mother did. To paraphrase what was said previously in this thread, parents do not own their children and have no right to publicly shame or humiliate them like this.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)And your discussion relies on convincing the daughter of the long term effects of a behavior that is fun for her and makes her look cool with her friends.
So yes, it will be exactly as effective as abstinence only education.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)I don't see how you can see the two or even remotely the same. Grounding doesn't humiliate her in public, it doesn't have the potential to make her an outcast at school, or possibly harm her late in life. What this mom did was a powertrip, she public humiliated her daughter. As to your point about the discussion, unlike you I don't think children are stupid and they can be reasoned with. I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of young people.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Kids, if you have sex without protection you may get an incurable STD or have a child that will ruin your chances of later success in life. Here are mountains of evidence to back why you should not have sex in your teens.
There. Problem solved. It would be unreasonable for them to disagree with or ignore those mountains of evidence. Right?
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)For the vast majority of human history people were married and having children in their teens. It was necessary for survival since people did not live very long. Socitey has changed and that is no longer necessary for survival, but biologically speaking the body still thinks it is, so of course a lot of teens will have sex. The reasonable thing to do is explain to them about birth control and make sure they have access to it. Besides, this isn't what we are talking about. The difference is this, you seem to think it's okay to shame children into doing what you want. I'll say this right now and then I'm done with this argument, because it is going nowhere. Any parent who uses shame and humiliation to teach their children really needs to work on their parenting skills, because shame and humiliation are never good teaching skills. It's sad to see so so many so called "progressives" claiming it's fine, but whatever I'm done with this discussion. It's gone in circles since it started and I'm tired of it.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Now kids, smoking may make you look cool and feel like an adult but many many years from now it may cause cancer.
You really shouldn't do it but if you do I will discuss with you again why smoking may cause cancer when you're 80.
There. Problem solved. It would be unreasonable for them to disagree with that.
underseasurveyor
(6,428 posts)since I don't know any real history of her family dynamics but your list of possible punishments don't always work. Take for instance, me. Between the ages of 6 and 12 I (we) were grounded a lot and with each subsequent grounding I loathed my stepfather even more than before. We were grounded for the littlest of things like not washing the switch plates in our rooms on Saturdays (the designated 'clean up your room' day). We missed cleaning the ceilings and so everything got pulled out of the drawers and closets, bedding stripped off and we were told to begin again. Granted that's unreasonable and abusive. For us being grounded meant, no phone, no TV, no record playing in our own room, no friends over and no going to a friends house. Go to school, come home, do yard work until dinner then homework til 8 or 8:30 then lights out, bed time.
By the time I was 12-13 y/o my mother tried "explaining" things to me but that didn't work either, I was too busy rolling my eyes and bragging about the drugs I was doing, so whenever either parent grounded me I just looked at them and said, "fuck you" and walked out the door and was gone for 1 to 3 days depending on whose house I went to. When I came home I'd be told, 'you're grounded for another week' and the horrible cycle continued. Come to think of it 40 years later I should probably still be grounded.
So that didn't work. My friends knew I was getting grounded all the time there was no shame in that. I found sympathy and support among my friends/peers. By the time I was 13 I was dropping acid, doing coke, speed, just about anything except downers and drinking. Tried em, didn't like it. I was 14-15 when I finally left home for good hitchhiking from Phoenix to LA. It wasn't easy and it was scary. When I was 16 I was pregnant and ashamed and stuck with an alcoholic and abusive boyfriend..... blah blah blah.
My point is that I WISH someone, ANYONE cared enough about me to at least try, right or wrong, at least try to intervene to stop my self destructive behaviour. Knowing myself as I do being "humiliated" would have probably been the only thing that would have stopped me for fear of being embarrassed a second time. Yes I think I could have been "humiliated" into being good.
I'll tell you what's embarrassing, trying to explain to friends, today, why my parents didn't do a thing to protect or stop me then.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Of course the cerebral cortex (cognition) continues to develop, it may continue to develop as long as we challenge our minds. It is the amygdala (emotion) that suffers as a result of shame and can be stunted by it.
So, basically, to say shame is needed because cognitive function is underdeveloped, sacrifices emotional maturity of the brain.
The person who is supposed to love and support you the most makes you feel like you are the worst person alive in front of the people whom you care about. Romance novelist mom hit her daughter with a double whammy. Now, I think this is actually a stunt mom pulled to get publicity, she doesn't really care about her daughter. This is like laptop dad, I don't know why I even bothered to post in this thread.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)"So, basically, to say shame is needed because cognitive function is underdeveloped, sacrifices emotional maturity of the brain.
"
That's all I can make from that statement.
If so it's a wonder anyone born prior to 1990 was able to function at all in society. What with the massive brain damage affecting 90% of the population that was punished far worse as a child.
This, as punishments go, is pretty mild.
siligut
(12,272 posts)You justified shame and humiliation as a tool because the kid's brain wasn't developed enough to be reasoned with.
Your links lead me to information that stated that cognitive and emotional brain functions don't reach maturity until the age of 21 or older. I don't think anyone is surprised by this revelation, BTW.
Well, cognitive and emotional functions relate to the cerebral cortex and the limbic system, the amygdala is a part of the limbic system, the part that deals with shame.
So, your justification doesn't work well specifically using your reasoning. http://talentdevelop.com/articles/Page43.html
So now, are you arguing that environment doesn't have an effect on development of the brain? I think we may have a communication problem.
white_wolf
(6,257 posts)If you ask me humiliating your child in public is just as bad, if not worse, than spanking them when they are younger. Both are ineffective parenting and just serve to teach the child not to trust the parent. This mother needs to address her own issues and stop taking them out on her child.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)Will the FB ad bot put an ad for beer next to this ?
And the mother is taking her off Facebook ??? What if her Farmville crops don't get watered ??? She will virtually starve.
TBF
(36,534 posts)I may have missed a few but I didn't see anybody asking where the parents were when this picture was taken?
I don't think parents can be blamed for everything children do, but I do wonder why a 13 yr old was able to find alcohol and have someone take the picture? Maybe supervision rather than shaming after the fact would be more effective ...
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)with the technology today, a kid can take a picture of themselves and post it on-line in under 5 minutes.
What the parents need to be doing is making sure that their child knows what they are allowed to do on line, and what will happen if they step outside those boundaries. My daughters have yet to screw up, and we remind them regularly of the rules, and the consequences of breaking those rules. So far, no issues.
TBF
(36,534 posts)My kids are younger, granted, so I haven't encountered this particular issue yet.
My 8-yr old does run around with the Flip video after the dogs so I've explained to her that she must ask for permission before filming other people which she seems to understand. Kids definitely need boundaries but for mine it has been enough to take away tv, an activity, or their favorite video game for a day. In fact, the threat of that is usually enough.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)My 10 year old asked me to down load a free screen capture program. I checked it out, it was OK.
She then, on her own, used it to create a demo video of a computer game she plays ... which she emailed to a family friend in another state ... so that they could play the game together on-line.
And I agree ... just the idea of losing access is plenty. Her best friend just moved ... still in the area, but no longer in the same school or neighborhood ... they skype ... and just the suggestion of "no skype" is more than enough.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Not only that, wouldn't a parent who had no idea that their kid was even interested getting boozey be glad to have discovered it and immediately take steps to address that very real, serious problem?
TBF
(36,534 posts)
xmas74
(30,050 posts)there was always alcohol in my house. Were my parents heavy drinkers? No-it was often used for cooking. There were no locks on liquor in my house.
And at the age of 13 most kids can be trusted to be left alone for a few hours. They don't have to tag along with mom and dad to the grocery store or to PTO meetings at that age.
Also, at that age I remember babysitting for a local juvenile officer. I was allowed to have one friend (female, according to their rules) accompany me if I wanted. The JO had the best stock of anyone I knew at that time, and it was never locked up. Thinking back, I only knew of one house that locks. (Classmate's dad, former drill instructor.)
It wouldn't be all that hard to get the liquor at that age and it's not unexpected to leave a kid for a couple of hours without supervision at that age. My child is 12 and there are times I leave her for an hour while picking up groceries. She knows the rules and she knows to be ready to help put away groceries when I pull up. Most kids at that age are left for short amounts of time with nothing happening.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)LOL
TBF
(36,534 posts)here than a video on a social network ...
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)i fear for your collective sanity if there was ever a disruption of food supplies or collapse of civil order.
indie_voter
(1,999 posts)I don't know the family or their dynamics. I will admit to cringing when I saw the crying girl with the handwritten note.
I don't know if it's effective or not. Maybe it is for this child? It could be for all I know. Everyone responds differently. For some people this could be very damaging, for others it might be just what they need. I don't know that there is a one size fits all solution.
I have a tween and a teen. My teen is not the type of kid to do anything too off the wall, but my tween is. She just recently got in trouble at school for taunting the classroom bully. This kid hadn't done anything to her or anybody that day but she decided on preemptive measures. She then refused to take responsibility for what she did when held accountable by the Principal and her teacher. She eventually came clean with me. I made her write a letter of apology to her Principal and her teacher. That was tough for her but I wanted her to understand she's accountable for her actions. She had already been made to apologize to the kid at school by the Principal.
As for something like this? If she posts stupid pictures of herself underage drinking and making a public spectacle out of herself? I know I'd take away computer and social media privileges for some time, letting her use her computer for school work only. However I personally wouldn't be comfortable with the punishment under discussion because I fear the consequences of making her look foolish in front of her peers on such a global scale. These pictures go viral on tumblr, twitter, live journal, facebook, etc. All it takes is one so called friend with a case of schadenfreude to copy the image and send it out. You don't have the kind of privacy filters on tumblr or twitter that you do on Facebook. Anybody can reblog anything for example on tumblr. Her friends friends friends could see her humiliation. I don't know if that would teach my daughter a lesson or prey on her at an age when she's so concerned about what others think of her?
Case in point, this picture is everywhere. We're talking about it here.
I'd be worried that my kid would do something more radical to repair her reputation in front of her friends so they don't think she's a wimp with no control over her life.
I just don't know. I'm not judging this mother because I don't know her kid ,her or their circumstances.
The only thing I know is I don't think this type of punishment would work for me or with my kids. Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe something definitely would need to be done. My instinct would be to take away social media indefinitely until my child showed they are better suited to handle it, just as this mother did. However, I personally would do it without making a public announcement because all the friends would know she's been busted anyway when she loses all privileges.
It isn't easy knowing what the right thing to do is. One thing I do believe is this mother is doing this out of love for her child and with the best intentions.
JonLP24
(29,913 posts)I don't need to know about what she did. She could've handled the problem effectively in private. Her daughter would have respected more too.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)We're on our 3rd teenager and experience has shown that the best way to make a difference when punishing a teenager is by taking away something they really like. No sense in humiliating a teenager like this. Shutting off the social media, taking away phone, car or whatever makes the best impact is the way to go.
Teenagers have a tough enough time as it is when it comes to their peers. No need to make matters worse for them.
patrice
(47,992 posts)substance known as alcohol requires a social consequence to correct the mis-information in such a way that establishes the truth and the importance not only of NOT yielding to peer group pressure to conform to the admiration of drinking alcohol, but also the fact that parent:child responsibilities are alive and functioning in this family.
I do also hope that this consequence was accompanied by special responsibility on the mother's part to follow-up appropriately with authentic listening conversations with her daughter, to help both of them understand clearly the hows and whys of this experience.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)
cabot
(724 posts)If this girl is dumb enough to post pictures of herself with alcohol on her facebook then she can also tell those same people she's not mature enough for facebook.
As someone who grew up physically, emotionally, and mentally abused, I really get so fucking angry when I hear people say a little bit of humiliation is abusive. If humiliation is something common and every day, then yes - it is abusive. But if it is used to learn a life lesson then so be it. Call me when this girl's dad gets drunk and kills her pets and then tells her how he did it or beats her over the head with a pan or tries to choke her to death. Be very careful with the term abuse, people.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)She's not wearing an embarrassing outfit, nor does the sign call her names.
Terra Alta
(5,158 posts)at least the mom didn't put bullets through her daughter's laptop and post it on YouTube.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,108 posts)I can't see that she's crying in the one you posted. No eyes visible, of course, but I can't see any tears either. The set of the mouth looks like it could be "my mom is making me hold this crappy sign up - grrr", but there are plenty of other interpretations you could read into it.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)
SecurityManager
(124 posts)I think we are done here.
rustydog
(9,186 posts)"...and will be taking a hiatus until I learn what I should + should not post. BYE BYE."
Good job.
FreeJoe
(1,039 posts)But I've learned to give pretty wide latitude to other parents on how they want to raise their children. I wouldn't tolerate abuse, but this doesn't rise to that level.
TBF
(36,534 posts)I didn't like this at all and feel that shame-based punishment is not the way to go. But I agree that there are bigger fish to fry as well, up-thread I was just giving my philosophy.
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)four decades ago in front of just us three. It was a foolish and counterproductive thing to do. I remember it quite clearly.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)and still going strong.