De facto punishment of transgender individuals in the penal system.

[BarstowCowboy]

Currently strict gender segregation is enforced in prisons, jails, detention centers and other locations where people are kept against their will. Usually when a transgender person is held at one of these facilities they are placed in solitary confinement, which is a de facto form of punishment for being transgender. Do you agree with me that these people should be allowed to be housed with those with whom they identify?

[Lulu Belle]

1. No

Their presence in this environment would cause a security problem.
Their chances of being assaulted by other inmates would be very high.
There would probably be violence among other inmates because of their presence in general population.
I worked in a prison, and trans people were kept in admin confinement for their own safety as well as for institutional security.
I'm sorry if this upsets some people, but that's the way I think it should stay.

[BarstowCowboy]

6. I respect that your opinion comes from experience

I respect that your opinion comes from experience.

Where I take exception with your view is the idea that ftm trans gender persons can't necessarily defend themselves against cisgender men. This view seems to be predicated upon the notion that ALL cisgender men are stronger than all transgender men, just as the arguments against allowing females to serve in combat units are predicated upon the notion that all men are stronger than all women. This is a false assumption. Two women just proved that by completing Ranger training, which not all men are strong enough to do.

If a mtf transgender person comes to prison now, their choices are to live with cisgender men and risk assault, or go to solitary confinement and risk the mental health issues that can arise from living in those conditions, EVEN though they've done nothing to merit being placed in solitary confinement. That is real discrimination based on gender identity. I'm not saying that transgender people should be forced to live with the gender they have transitioned to, but shouldn't it be an option?

[TipTok]

10. It's not about who wins or loses the fight...

It's about conflict starting in the first place...

[BarstowCowboy]

12. I know but

One could also make the argument that it's about civil rights for transgender people. Assaults take place in a correctional environment, and there are mechanisms for dealing with that. We no longer allow racial segregation is prisons, and I'm sure that that policy accounts for some violence. Should we go back to having "separate but equal" prisons for different races?

[Monk06]

13. "idea that ftm trans gender persons can't necessarily defend themselves against cisgender men"

Why would you force them into a situation where they would most certainly be abused and attacked just to satisfy some feel good sexual identity principle.

People get murdered in prison for cigarette debts for criminy sake.

[BarstowCowboy]

17. I don't know if I already mentioned this or not...

I don't know if I already mentioned this or not, but I'm not talking about forcing anyone to live anywhere, I'm talking about giving people choices about where they want to live, and NOT putting them into a punitive status simply because they are transgender.

[Monk06]

20. Segregation isn't solitary confinement. You are under protective custody along with other targeted

inmates which include convicted members of police organizations, informers or handicapped inmates all of whom would be subject to abuse and exploitation.

Any LBBT person in the general population would quickly become a sex slave and a trans person in a women's prison would not find life particularily easy either. Although that option has not been tried I'm not sure it's worth the risk. Women's prisons have violent inmates as well and are also run by gangs and tier bosses.

[BarstowCowboy]

26. I just think they should be afforded the choice.

I can't believe no one here agrees with me that they should at least be given the choice. Solitary confinement can have serious long term effects on a person's psychological wellbeing. Also, everyone seems to instantly think of a ftm transgendered prisoner's plight if they choose (key word choose) to be housed in a male housing unit, or that of a mtf transgender on a male unit. What about a ftm transgender or a mtf transgender being forced to live in a very small cell all alone for years on end, in conditions normally reserved as a punishment, for no reason other than their gender orientation? Why shouldn't either one of them be given the choice to live in a female unit? Also, not every correctional center is a maximum security facility for dangerous people. Immigration detention centers are a perfect example.

[Marrah_G]

30. They are in prison, they no longer have a choice

The prison is responsible for their safety and what you are suggesting would be guaranteed to cause trouble and most likely violent sexual assaults.

[BarstowCowboy]

35. I don't think you've thought your answer all the way through

I guess there's a chance that if you gave a mtf transgender person a choice about where they live and they chose to live in a male unit that there might be trouble, but what about a mtf transgender person? Why shouldn't she be allowed to live in a female unit as opposed to living in a solitary confinement cell? What has she done to deserve to be punished?

[Marrah_G]

37. I absolutely have thought it out.

You are under the assumption that just because a F2M transgender is Transgender means that they are peaceful and non-violent. That just is not the case. Also, there is no way a pre-op F2M prisoner and even a post op F2M would not be sexually assaulted in Gen pop. Prisons are responsible for prisoners and guards safety.

I say this as the mother-in-law of a pre-op F2M person who happens to be in the other room at the moment.

[BarstowCowboy]

49. I respect that you have skin in this game

I respect that you have skin in this game and that this is not just an academic exercise for you. A transgender may or may not be a violent person. I think that we assume too often that just because a person is a prisoner that they're violent. That isn't true, given all the people incarcerated for drug offenses and other non-violent crimes. As I understand it, prisoners are grouped and housed according to a variety of factors, which tends to put violent and predatory prisoners in areas apart from less violent and less predatory inmates. I don't think people should be forced to live in solitary confinement based on their gender identity, and I don't think that gender identity necessarily determines a person's potential for victim hood. I doubt that Kristin Beck would have trouble defending herself if she were a prisoner and chose to live in a male unit.

[1939]

70. So a convicted rapist could say

"There is a woman inside me trying to get out. I am not Robert anymore, I am Roberta. Put me in the female facility."

[BarstowCowboy]

71. Apparently that's the way it's going to be in San Francisco soon

Wow, it's almost as if I knew this was coming, but I swear I didn't know:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-transgender-san-francisco-jails-20150910-story.html

[Monk06]

34. Again you are confusing segregation with solitary confinement. Not the same thing

[BarstowCowboy]

36. I'm talking about being confined to a single person cell...

with the door locked except for when it's opened for recreation and showering, and not having access to common areas with other people. Is this a semantic thing, or is there a difference? I'm not an expert on corrections, so please, if there's a difference explain it to me so I can understand.

[Marrah_G]

40. Segregation is protective custody

It is a unit where people are put that would be victimized in the gen pop.

[BarstowCowboy]

50. Semantics

It sounds like a semantic difference. Prisoners are sent to solitary confinement for breaking rules. If they are sending transgender people to the same housing situation for being transgender, how is that not a punishment? On the other hand, if they offered transgender people the choice of a male, female or solitary confinement unit and they chose a solitary confinement unit, THAT to me would be okay.

[Lulu Belle]

14. I'm sure that a trans person could fend off

Some attackers.
But the situation is seldom one on one, or empty handed.
Prison is a violent place, filled with people that are often not averse to violent acts.
I also realize that violence happens between non trans people as well, I just think that in the environment that I worked in, the presence of a ftm inmate would be dangerous for that inmate.
I don't know for sure, but some of them might consider it to be punishment to be placed in Population status.
I will also say that the institution that I worked in was populated by the most dangerous inmates in the entire state, the only inmates that came straight there were those on death row. All the others were put there for escape attempts, assaults on staff or other inmates and the like. So the conditions at other facilities might be very different. Maybe it would be OK, you could always transfer them if it didn't work?
I have no experience in a women's institution.

[BarstowCowboy]

18. Once again, I respect that you have experience

I do a lot of work with the immigrant community, and as such I've been to a few detention centers. In my experience, predatory prisoners (the ones who would be most likely to commit a sexual assault) are identified and placed in solitary confinement. Less violent, less predatory prisoners are also identified and housed together. This is something called a Quay system. I don't know if I mentioned it in the OP, but I'm not in favor of telling a ftm transgender person that they have to live in a male housing unit. What I am in favor of is offering transgender prisoners a choice of where they want to live instead of putting them in a punitive housing assignement in solitary confinement. We didn't accept seperate but equal when it came to racial segregation, but we're accepting seperate and quite obviously unequal treatment for transgender prisoners.

[Chemisse]

2. I have concerns about that.

Men and women differ greatly in stature and physical strength. Having women housed separately from men helps to protect them from being at a physical disadvantage, and thus more easily subjected to prison violence.

Men who identify as women still have that physical advantage. Conversely, women who identify as men would enter a system at which they would easily be overpowered.

I'm not saying I am against it, only that this needs to be taken into consideration.

Another factor would be that many men would consider declaring they identify as women so as to get into women's prison, where they could hold a comfortably superior position.

[BarstowCowboy]

7. Not necessarily

Many mtf transgender people have begun hormone replacement therapy, which decreases a person's ability to gain and maintain muscle mass. Again, your statement that men who identify as women have a physical advantage is based on the notion that all men are stronger than all women, which is sexist and has been proven false.

[Travis_0004]

15. Its not sexist at all

The average man is stronger than the average woman.

That doesnt mean there are not strong women and weak men, but on average men are stronger.

[BarstowCowboy]

19. True, but...

It is true that the average man is stronger than the average woman, or so I've been told. When decisions are made about where to house prisoners, they don't make the decisions based on how strong each prisoner is. Very strong men are housed with very weak men, and very strong women are housed with very weak women. Therefore, saying that a transgender women can't be housed with cisgender women because a transgender man MIGHT be significantly stronger than the average cisgender woman is inconsistent, and is based on gender (sex), and is therefore sexist.

[Marrah_G]

31. You are thinking it would be one on one and some sort of fair fight

The reality is that it would probably be multiple men and a gang rape.

[BarstowCowboy]

38. Once again...

Once again, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to live on a male unit, I'm talking about giving all transgender people the option to live where they feel most comfortable. I'm doubt that there would be a lot of transgneder people wanting to live on a male unit. What I'm really concerned about is both mtf and ftm transgneder people being forced to live in segregation when they could be given the option of living on a female unit. Does anyone think that a transgender person should be given the opportunity to live on a female unit?

[Marrah_G]

41. My son in law say you are way off base

I went in and asked him, had him read the posts and he said "are they nuts?".

[Aerows]

45. Thank you

for being the voice of sanity. This whole thread is, imo, silly. MTF inmates will get preyed upon even worse than gay men will in a male prison, and I don't even want to contemplate what would happen to a FTM inmate in a male prison.

[BarstowCowboy]

51. Please go back and read the OP

At no time have I proposed that mtf prisoners be forced to live on a male unit. While I would support their having the option to do so, I would understand why that would probably not be a popular choice. All I've said is that transgender prisoners should have the option to live in the general population unit of their choice, rather than being forced to live in solitary confinement. Please don't call my entire thread silly. There are real human beings who aren't guilty of anything that would merit their being sent to live in the inhumane conditions found in solitary confinement, but who languish in solitary confinement just the same simply because they didn't have the good fortune to be born in a body that matched their true identity. These transgender people have been marginalized when they were free, and then after being separated from the rest of society they are further marginalized by being locked in a prison within a prison. I don't know how much you know about the effects of solitary confinement, but there is currently a credible lawsuit in the federal courts that cites several studies that show a link between solitary confinement and mental illnesses that can last a lifetime. Now, I understand that there are some prisoners who are so disruptive and so violent that the authorities have no option other than to segregate them from the rest of the prisoners for the good of everyone involved, and I can't think of a better way of protecting people than what they've already come up with, cruel as it may be. I think the fact that transgender people aren't accommodated, and are instead sent into a living arrangement that was designed as a punishment is a travesty and a true civil rights issue that we will have to address and that we should want to address. It was Fyodor Dostoevsky who said (paraphrased) that you can judge a civilization by how they treat their prisoners. I'm finding that many people have absolutely no interest in the injustices done to prisoners in their name and with their money, and it sickens me.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

3. It depends on three things, imo.

1) Safety of the transgender person.
2) Safety of the other inmates.
3) Responsibility and liability of the prison.

A ftm trans man could theoretically be very much at risk in the general population of men.

a mtf trans woman who is attracted to females could theoretically be a danger to other women inmates.

If the trans person has had genital reconstruction, then there shouldn't be an issue. At all. If the person has not, the prison officials are likely to err on the side of safety.

[Lulu Belle]

4. That's how it is

In a prison environment, institutional security is over everything else.

[BarstowCowboy]

9. Not always

Even though the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation cited security concerns in defense of their racial segregation policy, the policy was overturned. How is this so different? Obviously prisoners lose some of their rights when incarcerated, but only when the free exercise of that right cannot be accommodated. Transgender prisoners' rights are being violated when they are forced into solitary confinement for no other reason than the fact that they're transgender, and the entire policy is based on outdated assumptions and stereotypes about gender roles and human sexuality. At some point this will have to change.

[BarstowCowboy]

8. I'm not advocating that anyone should be forced

I'm not saying that a ftm transgender person should be forced to live with cisgender men, only that it should be an option.

Also, there are already women who are attracted to women living in the general population of women, so what difference does it make if a mtf transgender who ALSO is attracted to women also lives with women in general population?

[BarstowCowboy]

52. I disagree

I disagree with the idea that we should treat transgender people differently based on whether or not they've had surgical reconstruction on their genitals. I think that gets into "grading" transgender people based on cis-gender standards.

[Alenne]

5. I'm willing to bet transgender men would disagree with you.

Prisons have a hard enough time protecting men from being raped by other men. It would leave transgender men with intact vaginas at a severe disadvantage. Bad idea.

[BarstowCowboy]

11. No one should be forced

If a transgender man doesn't want to live with cisgender men then he should have the option of living with cisgender women. At present, he wouldn't have that option. He would be forced to live in solitary confinement, which is a punitive housing assignment. Cisgender prisoners have to be given due process before they're placed in solitary confinement, but merely being transgender is enough to land them in solitary confinement. You don't have to go flipping over rocks to find that injustice, it's right there in plain sight!

[Lee-Lee]

25. Prison isn't about options.

Nor should it be.

Prisoners go where told, when told, how told. Nobody gets an "option" on where and who they live with in prison.

[BarstowCowboy]

27. Prison might not be about choices...

Prison might not be about choices, but prisoners do maintain some of their civil rights when they're incarcerated. For instance, the prisoner's right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures is greatly reduced, but they are still protected from cruel and unusual punishment. Prisoners are supposed to retain their right to due process, but being placed in a punitive housing status because of their gender orientation seems like an abrogation of that right.

[Lee-Lee]

32. It is not a punitive housing status. It is a protective one.

You may not understand the difference, but it is different. A former cop or corrections officer in jail will also end up in protective housing status, to give an example of another group that has to be segregated due to the increased chance of assault.

Its like when a prisoner shows signs of self harm they will take their clothing away and give them an anti-suicide smock. Those thing suck, and you might think its a punishment, but its really just a safety measure.

[BarstowCowboy]

39. I thought that

I thought that people had to request to be placed in protective custody. Can't people opt out of that?

[Marrah_G]

42. No, not everyone

You need to understand the prisons have to do everything they can to mitigate violence. it is a safety issue not only for prisoners, but also for the guards.

[Lee-Lee]

57. No. That decision is made based on what it best for the overall

safety and security of the facility and the prisoners/inmates.

The individuals desire plays little to no role in the decision.

[BarstowCowboy]

53. Are you involved in the corrections field? I'm just curious, n/t.

[Lee-Lee]

56. I was a deputy for almost a decade, and when they were

short female jailers for a while had to end up pulling shifts in the jail. I hated working the jail.

Now county jail and a full state or federal prison are not the same, but close enough for me to have some perspective.

[MillennialDem]

69. I've never been in a prison, but my understanding is protective custody is not

just a smaller version of the general population. Those in protective custody tend to have less facilities to use. Less general out of cell area, less showering facilities, less recreational areas for exercise, less options for television, books, and library facilities to learn while incarcerated. So in that sense, it is punitive.

I think the best option would be for each state to have a protective custody prison where the general population is those who would be in protective custody in a normal prison.

[Aerows]

16. It's a difficult situation

The main area where I see humongous problems is a MTF individual or a FTM individual in a male prison. I can't even see a way to have them be in the general population without major problems. Gay cis-gender males in jail have it extremely rough if it becomes known that they are gay. Mind you, I've never been to prison so I'm hardly an expert, but it's not really difficult to figure out what is going to happen.

I can't even fathom what would happen to a FTM in the general population of a male prison if it becomes known that they still retain female sex features. MTF are going to have a horrible time, too, because there are many ignorant people in prison (which is why some are in prison to begin with) that just assume they want to sleep with every man on the planet.

I think MTF are going to have some issues in a women's prison, but nowhere near what would happen in a male prison. As someone earlier pointed out you can't keep men from raping other men; FTM and MTF will absolutely be open season if/when it comes out. At least being in solitary confinement gives them a chance to actually survive their sentence.

Horrible things happen in all prisons, but I have to think that transgendered individuals would be a hell of a lot safer for everyone concerned from staff to inmates to security if they are put in women's prisons.

[BarstowCowboy]

21. I must've really blown the OP

I wasn't proposing that if a ftm transgender went to prison she should be forced to live with cis-gender men. I am saying that they should be given a choice, and that being transgender shouldn't be used as a reason to put that person in a punitive housing status in solitary confinement. We've finally become mature enough to recognize that a transgender person should be allowed to choose which bathroom they want to choose. No one is worried about men pretending to be transgender to go see women peeing in the women's bathroom, and no one is worried about transgender men being assaulted in the men's locker room. A lot of rights are put on hold when a person goes to jail, but not all of them, and the right to due process is still valid in a correctional setting, but transgendered people's rights to due process are being violated when they are denied the opportunity to live in general population units and FORCED into solitary confinement, even though they haven't done anything to deserve being placed in solitary confinement.

[Chan790]

22. No, I think you've missed the premise of the unstated overarching objection...

most people think prison should be a state-coercive non-choice-filled experience for inmates...that is, inmates, by the basis of being inmates, aren't or shouldn't be entitled to having any great multitude of choices in their lives. It's a restricted, state-coercive environment intentionally and for reasons.

So, should transgender inmates be allowed to choose where and with whom they are incarcerated? No.
Should any inmate be allowed to choose where and with whom they are incarcerated? No.

Should the state be the only entitled choice-making actor and should they make those choices based on the state's interests combined with best interests and security of all the inmates as well as the staff?

That one, I'm going with...yes.

[Aerows]

44. This is *exactly* the take-away

that I personally didn't want folks to harangue anybody for.

You can pretend that prejudice doesn't exist, but it does, and with horrifically violent consequences.

[Chan790]

47. I know prejudice exists...

but I fundamentally have issue with the notion, central to Barstow's argument, that inmates have entitlement to choice in the conditions and terms of their incarceration. They absolutely do not.

His entire argument comes down to a "right to choose" (specifically, to make certain life decisions) that inmates don't have. If there is prejudice (and there is) it is singularly the concern and responsibility of the state as the sole choice-making entity to address. They've done that, using solitary where necessary and segregated units wherever possible (and the latter is substantially more common that the former), in a manner that Barstow disagrees with...which does not invalidate that the responsibility to be a good actor as the empowered entity in incarceration decisions has been fulfilled by the state's action.

To put it more simply...his central premise lacks merit and without it his larger argument comes apart like a house of cards.

[Aerows]

48. I think that people have the fundamental right

and the Constitution agrees with me on this one, to do their time without suffering cruel and unusual punishment.

Cruel and unusual punishment isn't limited to the correctional officers, but also that the inmates can get their shots in.

You can quote me on this: A trans gendered male should not be incarcerated in an area where he is repeatedly raped and beaten due to the fact that he sold some marijuana.

You aren't ever going to get me to agree with that. Half the people IN JAIL shouldn't be there in the first damn place and we have horrible people that aren't.

[BarstowCowboy]

54. I'm not sure how this thing got so far off track

I'm not sure how many times I've said this, maybe I should go back and clarify the OP, but I don't think transgenders should be forced to live in male units. I think transgenders should be afforded the opportunity to select a general population housing unit of their choice (most would probably choose the female units) instead of being placed in punitive solitary confinement conditions. I don't want to put transgender prisoners into situations in which they'd be vulnerable to repeated sexual assaults. Can I be more clear on that?

[Chan790]

60. You don't need to be more clear that that...I'm going to try this again.

Your opinion is that transgender inmates should be allowed to choose where in the penal system they are housed; I'm telling that they factually do not have this choice. It's a fact of law that inmates have no right (or opportunity or whatever you want to call it) to choose conditions of their incarceration, an authority that lies intentionally solely with the state. Litigated and lost. More than once. You've started from a factually-wrong premise...and built out from there.

"I think transgenders should be afforded the opportunity to select a general population housing unit of their choice." -BarstowCowboy

This is simply untrue and without a legal basis. (This authority lies solely with the state and I would categorically oppose giving this ability to choose to any inmate.)

You've fallen into one of the most commonly pervasive errors of a DU poster...mistaking people who disagree with you for not understanding you...I understand you perfectly, you're just wrong.

[BarstowCowboy]

63. Okay then...

Let's say for a minute that I was a mtf transgender prisoner. Imagine that I was allowed to choose to live in the female unit and I chose to do so. Tell me why this is a bad thing.

[Lulu Belle]

23. Fair enough

It might be ok at some facilities.
I'm sure the issue will have to be dealt with soon.

[Lee-Lee]

24. As mentioned, the chances for sexual or other assault are much higher in that situation

And the prison has its first responsibility to keep the inmates safe.

Period.

When confined to the prison the officials running that prison are responsible for ensuring they keep each inmate or prisoner as safe as they can.

Knowingly creating a situation where the likelihood of violence against a person is much higher is irresponsible on the part of the prison.

Life sucks. It sucks more in prison. Sometimes there isn't a good answer just the least worst answer- solitary or a much more likely chance of being assaulted? There isn't an optimal answer, but safety has to come first.

[BarstowCowboy]

29. A possible third choice?

Maybe it doesn't have to be this or that, maybe there is a third way. What would stop a correctional system from having a separate area in the prison to house transgender prisoners with other transgender prisoners? I recognize that there aren't a lot of transgender prisoners, so maybe a separate area in every facility isn't practical, so maybe they could have a designated facility within each state for a consolidated transgender facility.

[Marrah_G]

43. That would be the Segregation Unit

Seg is exactly what you are describing. it is a unit where people who would be victimized are housed together. They are not confined to their cells. It is not solitary confinement.

[BarstowCowboy]

55. Terminology

I have personally visited a transgender man who was confined to a detention center in Arizona who was, for no reason other than the fact that he was a transgender man, confined to a single person cell at all times, except for when he was taken out to shower by himself and when he was taken out for outdoor recreation, also by himself. To me, that's punishment, whether it's called segregation, protective custody or solitary confinement, it seems to me that this is something that is punitive and inhumane, and the fact that it was forced on him for no reason other than his gender seems like a violation of his civil rights.

[Lee-Lee]

58. Money, resources, demand

All those have an impact.

I doubt the transgender population is large enough in most states to justify the creation of whole specific units- much less whole specific units for maximum, medium and minimum security levels so that nobody gets put in a more controlled setting than they otherwise would.

Then if you do one per state you get into issues of it being geographically undesirable because it can be across the stage from family.

Maybe if they do something to greatly reduce prison populations they will have the resources. But as it is now there are other needs that I would rank as far more pressing- like getting better mental health services for everyone in prisons.

[Yo_Mama]

28. No, safety considerations have to win out.

Anatomically transitioned persons can probably be housed with their new gender, but in many cases, those who have not physically transitioned cannot be be legally distinguished from those who would just prefer to say they are transgendered in order to change their situation.

The first, second and third priorities in housing prisoners should be safety, for that prisoner and for other prisoners.

[davidn3600]

33. What's all this talk about safety?

It's pretty obvious the prison system doesn't give a damn about safety. There is rape and sexual assault all over the prison system and states flat-out refuse to do anything about it. "Part of the punishment" some would say. Then you got incredibly poor medical care that has been outsourced to some private company. Private prisons routinely reduce their staff levels to dangerous levels.

So when Department of Corrections officials say they are doing something for "safety," I just have to laugh.

[Aerows]

46. As ludicrous as the penal system is

Even a few of the dumbest alligators in the pond are going to become a sexual carnivore in lockup. They will brutalize gay men and a MTF? You bet, it's field day.

Our prison system is cruel and unusual punishment when applied to non-violent offenders. You can rape a child and get less time than a person that deals marijuana - that's what is so skewed, distorted and horrible that I don't know what to say other than it's horrid.

[Lee-Lee]

59. 4.4% of males report sexual assault in prison, while 59% of trans female inmates in the same facilities do

http://ucicorrections.seweb.uci.edu/files/2013/06/Transgender-Inmates-in-CAs-Prisons-An-Empirical-Study-of-a-Vulnerable-Population.pdf

A trans female in population with males is more than 13 times more likely to be sexually assaulted.

It's a huge issue- statisticlly segregation from the general population is warranted based on the evidence and for their own safety. With those facts putting a transgendered prisoner in general population would be negligence.

Putting them in a population they identify with but don't biologically match is likewise just as problematic- sexually assaults can and will still happen. In fact put a trans female in a female population and that's a whole new troublesome dynamic. It won't solve a problem, it just realigns it in a different dynamic. Sexual assault still happens in female prison populations and you could argue it's increasing risk for the female population to put a biological male in with them.

[One_Life_To_Give]

61. Allowed but not otherwise pressured? Might work I guess

I think anyone who is Trans should have the option of being held in a safer place than General Population. Would think most would find Gen Pop pretty frightening. World is hostile enough for my Trans Brothers and Sisters already.

[BarstowCowboy]

64. So solitary confinement then?

It just seems like such a bad choice...general population or solitary confinement.

[One_Life_To_Give]

65. kobayashi maru

Sometimes life only presents bad choices. Not possible to force other inmates to like one another.

[Zorra]

62. Good OP. Info from Transgender Law Center about transgender folks and the justice system:

Transgender persons know best what their conditions are, and what they need. Straight people generally know very little about transgender people. I suggest straight folks listen to, and defer to, the transgender community regarding their conditions and needs.

State of CA and Transgender Law Center reach historic settlement over trans prisoner health care

Today, the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation reached a groundbreaking settlement with Shiloh Quine, a transgender woman held in a men’s prison, to move her to a women’s facility and provide medical care, including gender-affirming surgery, determined necessary by several medical and mental health professionals. In the settlement, the state also agreed to change its policies so that transgender prisoners can access clothing and commissary items consistent with their gender identity. The state also affirmed that it is revising its policies regarding transgender inmates’ access to medically necessary treatment for gender dysphoria, including surgery.

“This historic settlement is a tremendous victory, not just for Shiloh and transgender people in prison, but for all transgender people who have ever been denied medical care or basic recognition of our humanity just because of who we are,” said Kris Hayashi, Executive Director of Transgender Law Center, which represented Shiloh along with pro bono counsel from the law firm of Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP. “After years of unnecessary suffering, Shiloh will finally get the care she desperately needs – and transgender people nationwide will hear a state government affirm that our identities and medical needs are as valid as anyone else’s.”

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/archives/11861

Prisons and Criminal Justice

Transgender Law Center stands in solidarity with those who are in jail or prison. All people—including those in prison—deserve lives free from violence, with the opportunity to live as their authentic selves. Transgender people face heightened levels of violence and vulnerability when they are incarcerated, experiencing harassment and danger throughout the system. This puts their lives and well-being in serious jeopardy.

In addition, the discrimination that transgender people face in the workplace can create serious economic hardships. Some transgender people engage in sex work, drug sales or other aspects of the street economy in order to survive. This puts them at a higher risk of arrest and imprisonment. Some transgender people have also been arrested simply because they are transgender because of prejudice on the part of a police officer who believes that all transgender people are engaged in illegal work.

Transgender Law Center regularly provides legal information to transgender people in jails and prisons and on parole. We also work with partner organizations like TGI Justice Project, Justice Now, and the National Center for Lesbian Rights to advocate for humane and just policies for incarcerated trans and gender nonconforming people.

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/issues/prisons

Policy Recommendations Regarding LGBT People in California Prisons (pdf)

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/issues/prisons/policy-recommendations-regarding-lgbt-people-in-california-prisons

Police, Jails & Prisons

Police interactions, jails and prisons can be traumatizing and are often dangerous interactions and places, especially for transgender people and anyone who is gender non-conforming. In a country that incarcerates more of its people than any other in the world, transgender people are more likely to be stopped and questioned by police, engage in survival crimes such as sex work, end up behind bars, and more likely to face abuse behind bars. Being transgender or gender non-conforming in an American jail or prison often means daily humiliation, physical and sexual abuse, and fear of reprisals for using the legal remedies to address underlying problems. Many transgender people are placed in solitary confinement for months or years just because of who they are. In recent years, these issues have gained national attention. For example, regulations to implement the Prison Rape Elimination Act (PREA) include specific provisions aimed at protecting transgender prisoners. NCTE and other advocates continue to press for stronger protections and accountability and create new tools for advocacy focused on transgender and gender non-conforming people’s interactions with the criminal justice system with local, state and federal law enforcement officials and the public at-large.

http://transequality.org/issues/police-jails-prisons

[BarstowCowboy]

66. Thanks

Thanks, for a minute there I thought I was crazy.

[KamaAina]

67. Places with large trans populations like SF and LA could have special trans units

to deal with this issue.

[KamaAina]

73. Turns out SF has such a unit

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Jail-to-house-transgender-inmates-based-on-6498107.php

The San Francisco jail is taking steps to house female transgender inmates based on their gender identity,

The San Francisco Chronicle reports (http://bit.ly/1K1S3AY) Friday that Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi says that beginning next month, inmates and staff members will be educated and trained to make for a smooth transition for transgender inmates to participate with other women in drug and alcohol abuse education programs and women's empowerment groups.

The Sheriff's Department currently houses transgender inmates in their own unit for their protection.

He described the move as a first step toward fully integrating all transgender inmates into the general jail population.

[BarstowCowboy]

68. Some corrections professionals see the logic in not segregating someone just for being transgendered

Oddly enough, Donald L. Leach, a Jail Risk Management Consultant based in Lexington, Kentucky agrees with me, and the people at a website called correctionsone.com thought enough of his opinion to post it online:

http://www.correctionsone.com/correctional-healthcare/articles/2082675-How-should-agencies-manage-transgender-offenders/

Housing: Predator vs. prey
Regardless of sexual preference and gender identity, a fundamental objective in corrections must be to “separate the predators from the prey,” Leach said.

In many facilities, he said, “we’re not doing a good enough job of separating by classification.”

In other words, an inmate’s sexual identity or preference is only important to officers in so far as it helps them to decipher whether the inmate is likely to become a victim of abuse in the facility, Leach said. They should then be housed accordingly.

“We need to eliminate all types of violence,” he said. “Identify the predators and then remove them. It’s about protecting inmates from violence, sexual or non.”

Housing: Sexual preference
So, if our goal is to better protect vulnerable inmates, should we be using sexual preference as a method for classifying inmates? Leach says “no”, because knowing an inmate’s sexual preference shouldn’t affect how we house them or define whether or not they’ll be victimized.

“We don’t care what your preference is,” Leach said. “There is no sex in the jail - period.”

Leach also challenges the notion that because an inmate is sexually attracted to someone of their own sex that it means they’re going to have sexual relations while incarcerated.

“It’s not true that people will automatically couple-up,” Leach said, emphasizing that just because a man is gay, it doesn’t mean he will be attracted to all and any men.

Instead of focusing on issues of sexual preferences, Leach said, “what you look for is sexual identification”.

Housing: Sexual identity
When booking offenders, Leach said, it pays tenfold to ask the incoming prisoner whether they identify as male or female, regardless of what might seem like obvious physical characteristics to you and other staffers.

For instance, if someone is clearly (from a physical standpoint) a man but claims to identify as a woman, should this affect how we house them?

The best thing to do in these situations, Leach said, is ask. First, ask the transgender or intersexual offender whether they would like to be housed with men or women. If they say “with women”, then ask the women in the housing unit if they’ll be comfortable living with a man who identifies as female. In these situations, clear communication between all parties is critical and often very effective, he said.

This is not to suggest, Leach stressed, that inmates should be allowed to choose which gender they are to be housed with. It is simply another "predator vs. prey" risk to be considered by staff.

Once all predator vs. prey risks have been evaluated and the inmate has been housed, Leach reminds staffers to make sure to document the whole process that resulted in classification and housing of the offender, thus protecting themselves from any future liability risks.

There is, however, one specific case scenario Leach said to beware of: the male inmate who claims to identify as female simply to get a chance to prey on women sexually. However, this is again an issue of predator vs. prey and should be combated through a rigorous classification system.

[BarstowCowboy]

72. Wow, I guess I predicted the future

It looks like the Sheriff of San Francisco county read this thread and thought my idea was pretty good:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-transgender-san-francisco-jails-20150910-story.html