Exploding the myth of the feckless, lazy Greeks

[Lars77]

Last edited Tue May 22, 2012, 03:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Myth: Greeks are lazy. This underlies much of what is said about the crisis, the implication presumably being that our lax Mediterranean work-ethic is at the heart of our self-inflicted downfall. And yet, OECD data show that in 2008, Greeks worked on average 2120 hours a year. That is 690 hours more than the average German and 467 more than the average Brit. Only Koreans work longer hours. The paid leave entitlement in Greece is on average 23 days, lower than the UK’s minimum 28 and Germany’s whopping 30.





http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/05/exploding-myth-feckless-lazy-greeks

[xchrom]

1. du rec. nt

[PoliticAverse]

2. "Maria has never dodged a tax in her life." And he knows this how ? n/t

[Warpy]

3. Poor folks pay regressive taxes: fees and sales taxes,

while the rich dodge taxes on their high incomes and their property.

I thought you knew this.

[Zalatix]

5. Because of lack of evidence that she ever dodged taxes, perhaps?

[SnowCritter]

6. If you read the article,

you'll find that the Maria in question is the author's mother. I suspect the author might know a thing or two about how his mother deals with her finances.

[PoliticAverse]

8. I did read it and saw that it was about his mother. I'm convinced that he loves her. n/t

[4th law of robotics]

12. So on the one hand you have meticulously collected tax/income statistics covering generations

on the other hand you have an author who loves his mom.

I guess that's a wash.

[Zalatix]

29. Yes, let's blame the working class instead of the banks

[4th law of robotics]

31. I blame the voting class

and those who knowingly committed tax evasion.

1/3 of their revenue disappeared due to people not paying their taxes.

Imagine what that money would do now.

One in three dollars, gone due to corruption and greed, every year for decades.

It adds up.

/the banks never put a gun to their heads and said "skimp on your taxes or I'll shoot!"

[Zalatix]

99. Ah, blame the voters, democracy. Not the rich, of course.

I'm sure you think that the taxes that the rich dodged would have amounted to what, 1/1000th of a percent of the taxes Greece failed to collect?

[4th law of robotics]

110. Who put Greece's government in power?

[Zalatix]

120. The Government betrayed the people.

In both Ireland and Greece the voters demanded one thing and got the exact opposite. Fine Gael ran on an anti-austerity platform and upon being elected they walked it all back. The same with the Greek parties that are now losing power.

In fact, it's threatening to happen in France right now, with Hollande running on an anti-Sarkozy platform and now he's already walking back some of his promises.

The people not getting what they voted for is a COMMON problem.

Next argument?

[4th law of robotics]

123. You didn't answer my question:

Who put Greece's government in power?

And this problem goes back a long ways before this current government.

[Zalatix]

127. I did answer your question.

The PLUTOCRATS put them in power. The voters didn't get what they voted for.

[4th law of robotics]

128. Ah so greeks live in an authoritarian state where they have no control over their government

I can see you are not living in an objective reality.

[Zalatix]

133. You don't think the rich control the politicians?

Here's how your argument plays out (hilariously so, in fact)

The people voted for certain politicians.
The politicians passed laws putting up red light cameras.
Ergo the people voted for red light cameras.

Your argument completely ignores the reality of campaign contributions and behind the scenes influence - a problem that is widely recognized as an epidemic here in America (much less Greece).

I can see you are quite naive. You're probably the ONLY person who doesn't understand the concept of political corruption.

[4th law of robotics]

137. If the politicians ran on a platform of putting up red light cameras

and did it every time they were elected, for generations then perhaps your analogy would make sense.

You're probably the ONLY person who doesn't understand the concept of political corruption.

I've noticed this trend. You like to make claims that are true in your head but not substantiated elsewhere then build your arguments around those.

[Zalatix]

144. Actually your argument is all backwards.

The problem is that politicians don't talk about putting up these cameras. People vote for them, not realizing what these politicians are going to do to screw them. Fact of history. Yet another indication that you don't understand the concept of corruption.

I've also noticed a trend. You like to make claims that you can't back up, and then blame me for your failure to do so. Hey, we can go on like this forever. You can constantly be wrong and I can constantly point it out.

[4th law of robotics]

150. So for generations the Greeks voted for balanced budgets

and decent enforcement of the tax code but those mean ol' politicians tricked them every single election?

I've also noticed a trend. You like to make claims that you can't back up, and then blame me for your failure to do so. Hey, we can go on like this forever. You can constantly be wrong and I can constantly point it out.

I provided a source for my claims. You did not. So at this point you're either just messing with me by making this claim or you are suffering from a mental illness.

[Zalatix]

156. Your source doesn't back up your argument. Your argument is not logical.

Yet you accuse me of trolling or of having a "mental illness"?

The reality of it is more like there's a bunch of us here explaining to you that you're wrong and you can't refute any of us, and now you're going over the top with your personal attacks.

[4th law of robotics]

160. Repeating something does not make it true

I have provided a source for my claims: that tax evasion in Greece is rampant.

You have refused to address that an instead accused me of not providing a source for my claims.

Since this is in such staunch opposition to reality I have to assume that you have some ulterior motive.

[Zalatix]

163. Funny, that applies to you, too. Your source doesn't support your argument.

Downthread you even deny to others what you said in post #12.

You seem to be getting called out by a lot of folks who don't agree with your idea of reality. Perhaps you think you are the only sane person here?

[4th law of robotics]

166. You are coming across as an inherently dishonest person

what you claim I said in post 12 is clearly not there. Anyone can see it.

And I did provide a source that *explicitly discussed the tax evasion problem in Greece*.

Now you're claiming I never provided a source that covered the tax evasion problem in Greece.

[Zalatix]

169. Coming across as dishonest to whom?

Who else here shares in your version of reality?

The reason why you're going into these conniptions is not only am I showing you to be wrong, but other people are, too. The OP of this thread now has sources that contradict and even discredit your "sources". I'll repeat that again so you understand where you're going wrong. The edited OP discredited your sources.

You need to take a step back and ask yourself why nobody here is buying what you're selling.

[4th law of robotics]

168. I'm going to go ahead and put you on ignore

frankly I've let you get me too initiated. I should have ended this when you first began posting lies about me. I guess that since I don't do those things I tend to believe others are likewise basically decent. I just assumed you were confused. Now I can see that it was deliberate.

I will gladly discuss it with anyone else. But I see no point in talking to someone who views strawmen and false quotes as valid debate tactics.

[Zalatix]

170. I'm the first of many from here that you're putting on ignore. Bye!

[4th law of robotics]

32. Out of curiosity: do you deny the fact that the Greeks underpay on their taxes?

[Zalatix]

39. I acknowledge that the rich ones do.

Tax evasion was primarily done by the rich. And you seriously discount the role of the banking system, particularly Deutsche Bank AG, in Greece's problems. To be specific, you don't mention the role of the banks at all.

http://roarmag.org/2011/06/roar-on-bbc-world-dont-blame-the-greeks/

[4th law of robotics]

45. Ah so it's just the rich

which means that a full third of all taxes (assuming the rich are paying zero taxes and the poor are paying everything) ought to have fallen on the rich.

Interesting.

Not supported by the facts. But interesting.

[HiPointDem]

55. assuming their income tax system is something like ours, slightly progressive with ordinary people

having taxes automatically deducted from their checks and rich people being able to finesse the system better, yes.

in the us, the top 5% pays 50-60% of income taxes. because they get most of the income. i don't doubt it's different in greece.

[sabrina 1]

42. Rich Greeks, yes, just like here. Why, did you buy into the 'blame the working class

for the Global Financial Meltdown, generate enough anger at them, then we can take their Health Care and their jobs and whatever we haven't yet taken more easily while we use everything we take from them to bail ourselves out, again?'

Austerity = Make the poor and working class pay the gambling debts of the corrupt, wealthy Wall Street gamblers who collapsed the world's economy. To do so you must blame THEM for being lazy, worthless, non-tax-paying, welfare cases.

So sad to see this ancient tactic, this 'blame the poor and the working class for, this time, the Global Financial Meltdown actually even being considered here.

[4th law of robotics]

47. Assuming it's only the rich doing this is not supported by facts

It's an entire culture that views paying taxes as not worth the effort.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki

[HiPointDem]

56. of course it's supported by the facts. where the rich get most of the income, they are paying

(or not paying) most of the income taxes.

[4th law of robotics]

106. *most*

funny thing about "most". It doesn't mean "all".

Also you'll need to define your terms. Who are "the wealthy". And what are you considering to be "most" of the unpaid taxes.

[HiPointDem]

124. 5% of the people get 50% of the income in the us and pay about 60% of the income taxes.

i define "wealthy" as the people taking the lion's share of the cash.

how do you define it?

[4th law of robotics]

125. Greece is now part of the US?

When did that happen?

/although we could pick them up cheap at the moment.

[HiPointDem]

129. didn't say it was. but the people with the money are responsible for the majority of income taxes,

even when the tax is flat.

In greece income is about as unequally distributed as in the US. Ergo, the rich are responsible for the majority of the income tax, even if they have a flat income tax.

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SI.POV.GINI/compare?country=gr#country=gr:us

[4th law of robotics]

131. You can understand the confusion of course

since we were discussing Greece and you referenced the US.

Also people keep stating that this is true (that it's only the rich not paying their taxes rather than the poor and middle class as well) but no one so far has provided evidence to back this up.

[HiPointDem]

135. yes, i understand *your* confusion. if you acknowledge the obvious you have no argument.

[4th law of robotics]

136. On the contrary, I have been extremely consistent and logical in my debate

you and others have been trying to change terms (like taking a discussion on Greece and turning it in to a discussion on the US) and have made claims without source material to back them up.

I provided evidence that the Greeks have a pervasive culture of tax avoidance.

So far the closest anyone has come to refuting this is to say "well maybe but it's all the rich!!".

And of course no one has provided relative stats to back this claim or even defined what they consider rich (for Greece, not the US).

[HiPointDem]

143. You have provided no evidence whatsoever of anything. I linked Greece's GINI index.

33-34. That means, in case you didn't know, that income in Greece is divided just slightly more equally than in the US. What means that the top 5% in Greece receive about 45% of income rather than 50%.

Which means that even if they have a flat income tax (which they don't), the top 5% is supposed to be paying half the income taxes.

That's mathematically obvious.

[4th law of robotics]

152. And that would be quite relevent if we were discussing their GINI index.

We are not.

You made the claim that the only people not paying their taxes are the rich.

I pointed out that it is everyone. Then I provided a source for it.

To back your claim you provided evidence that . . . there are rich people in Greece.

You have a hypothesis: only rich people are not paying their taxes in Greece.

Ok, now do the legwork: define rich (for Greece, not the US). Figure out how many people that amounts to. Find sources showing it is only them not paying their taxes and that those unpaid taxes (again, find a source for the amounts they aren't paying not merely speculation) were what caused this crises.

[HiPointDem]

186. don't be disingenuous.

[sabrina 1]

84. Sorry, that is BS.

The MSM? Who reads or watches the western MSM anymore?? So what happened to all the countries whose economies have collapsed?? Spain, Italy, Ireland, Iceland, USA, Portugal, France to name just a few?? Was it their 'culture' that did to them what was done to Greece, because they are in no better shape so it has to have those 'cultures' you know, the white Europeans, who refused to pay THEIR taxes also?

This is using bigotry as an excuse to scapegoat Greece for the Global Collapse, you know it is a Global Collapse, not a Greek collapse? And in a month or so, when Spain becomes the next scapegoat, what will be said about them? How about the Irish, how did they get in the same mess as Greece?

Please, we should not be using these neocon/neolib talking point here. We are better than that.

[Zalatix]

98. +1,000,000, that was very well said.

[4th law of robotics]

107. You are simply making claims

provide evidence please that the problems in Greece are caused exclusively by the wealthy not paying their taxes rather than a pervasive culture of tax avoidance.

I provided a source for my claims. Please do the same.

[sabrina 1]

114. What happened to Spain, Iceland, Ireland, Portugal?

What caused their economies to collapse? And no, no one said that Greece's problem was caused exclusively by the wealthy no paying their taxes, what people said was that Greece's problems were not caused by the POOR not paying their taxes and that if anyone didn't pay taxes, it was the wealthy.

You have been given evidence which you ignored. Go back and reread this thread, you will find it.

[4th law of robotics]

117. They likewise had weak economies going in

however they aren't on the verge of collapse due to consistently high debt/gdp ratios. Notice that it is Greece that is soaking up all the bailouts.

And yes, you did say that it is the wealthy not paying their taxes, and only the wealthy.

Also saying that the MSM is lying and that you are right is not what I'd consider a valid source.

[sabrina 1]

139. You are making the ludicrous claim that the Global Meltdown was caused by

the Greeks 'not paying their taxes'. You have provided not a shred of evidence to back up that claim.

Please either provide evidence that the Global Meltdown was caused by the Greeks, or I see no point in continuing this conversation.

[4th law of robotics]

154. No, I never said that

that is either a strawman or a lie. Take your pick.

I said the Greeks problems are caused by decade long structural issues that were brought exposed by the global economic collapse.

You have provided not a shred of evidence to back up that claim.

And you have provided no evidence that red is blue.

See how weird things get when we make up arguments for each other and then demand proof? Let's just stick with actual arguments, for clarity sake.

Please either provide evidence that the Global Meltdown was caused by the Greeks, or I see no point in continuing this conversation.

I think the real cause was strawmen. Those devilish bastards, always manipulating the economy.

/please find where I said the global economic collapse was the fault of the Greeks or I see no reason continuing this conversation. I have a very low tolerance for people who intentionally lie about me to deflect from the weakness of their own claims.

[Zalatix]

159. Yes, you did say that, in Post #12.

[4th law of robotics]

165. No, I didn't. This is a lie

Here's the actual post:

4th law of robotics
12. So on the one hand you have meticulously collected tax/income statistics covering generations

on the other hand you have an author who loves his mom.

I guess that's a wash.

/where in that am I blaming the entire global crises on the Greeks?

//really you need to stop doing this. It's getting annoying. I have not attributed any false claims to you. I expect you to do me the same courtesy. Surely you can agree that no matter how passionately you wish to defend the Greeks in this mess that it is uncivilized to falsely assign quotes to others to avoid addressing weaknesses in your own arguments. Can I get you to agree to that, for civility sake?

[sabrina 1]

172. So what did cause the meltdown?

[sabrina 1]

102. Where did the bailout money, forced on the Greeks by the Goldman Sachs contingency

go? Who got that money? Seriously, try to figure that out and your eyes will suddenly be opened as to the insane and ludicrous propaganda you appear to be buying, that Greek people collapsed the Global Economy, all by themselves.

[4th law of robotics]

109. Why did they need bailout money

Basically you're arguing that because the fire department screws up some time there's no reason to check your smoke detectors.

Instead of complaining about the people trying to fix your mistakes maybe avoid making those mistakes in the first place.

Why did Greece need a bailout?

[sabrina 1]

140. Why did the US need bailout money? Why did Ireland need bailout money?

Why did anyone need bailout money? Maybe if you can answer that you will see how wrong you are to blame the Greeks for the biggest, Global Economic Meltdown in history.

[4th law of robotics]

153. You keep ignoring a key point

if it were exclusively the economy and that hit everyone equally why is it that Greece is needing a bailout, but Germany is providing it? Why doesn't Germany likewise need a bailout?

Did the invisible hand of the economy bestow it's magical blessings on the germans because they sacrificed a virgin or two?

[Zalatix]

167. Germany is running a massive trade surplus, this is a big help to their economy.

Greece, on the other hand, ran an average $2.5B deficit yearly, from 2001:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade

Germany's balance of trade was an average of $5.5 billion, yearly, from 1971 to 2012! In 2012 it skyrocketed to $17 billion.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/balance-of-trade

You want to know why Germany is bailing people out? It's PROBABLY because everyone is in debt to them to begin with, and DEFINITELY because Germany is running one HECK of a trade surplus with the world. Germany doesn't need a bailout because they're taking in money, not bleeding out money.

Simple, basic economics.

[sabrina 1]

173. You didn't answer the question I have asked. Why did Ireland need a bailout, why did the

US need a bailout? What caused the Meltdown that made it necessary to bail out all these countries?

[4th law of robotics]

176. Well the US didn't get a bailout

so that's not true. (since we're talking about the ability to raise money via taxes you really can't count bailing out ourselves).

And Ireland got one and that was it. It was much smaller than the Greeks, had harsher terms, and did not cause the virtual collapse of their economy, nor are they being seriously considered for expulsion from the EU.

They had a weak economy going in. And when the rest of the market collapsed they were hit hard.

BUT, unlike greece they did not have consistent deficits and an inability to raise large sums of money via taxation. Hence their relatively small bailout and lack of concern over whether they can pay it back.

You see the difference?

[sabrina 1]

177. Portugal also received a bailout.

The American people bailed out the banks here. Where did all that money go? And if you think Ireland's economy is doing alright, you couldn't be more wrong.

Spain and Italy are in a state of economic collapse.

Country after country, all falling apart economically, but it's all the fault of the Greek people?

Iceland is the only country that has survuved and is on the rebound, because they refused to bail out corrupt banks for one thing.

The Global Meltdown was caused by corrupt Wall Street criminals. I do not know why you are determined to defend them. Hopefully we will soon see some investigations, now the attempts to bail them out have failed, over and over again. And then some indictments and prosecutions.

Greece was a victim of this corruption, as are all the other countries now in dire straits economically.

[4th law of robotics]

178. Sigh, this is getting repetitive

Everyone was hit by the economic crises.

-I feel I've repeated this ad nauseum because well I have.

The Greeks did not cause the worldwide economic collapse.

-I feel I've repeated this ad nauseum because well I have.

Many countries are in a bad place right now.

-I feel I've repeated this ad nauseum because well I have.

The Greeks are in a uniquely bad place because A) they were hit worse and B) due to their horrible fiscal policies (ie "not collecting taxes&quot they are in no position to repay any new loans they are given meaning C) those giving out said loans are less than eager to burn their hard earned dollars.


Now go ahead and say that I am arguing that everything wrong in the world is the fault of the Greeks.

/It's like you don't even read what I write.

[girl gone mad]

179. The Greeks are not in a uniquely bad place.

Last edited Thu May 24, 2012, 05:06 PM - Edit history (1)

You are totally wrong in this assessment.

You need to explain how taking more money out of the Greek private sector through taxation would help get Greece out of depression. Economics is clearly not your strong suit.

[4th law of robotics]

181. "You need to explain how taking more money out of the Greek private sector through taxation"

Interesting.

So a tax cut will save the day? Laffer curve maybe? Cut the taxes to 0% and you'll increase revenue infinitely!

/the one thing wrong with government is that it's funded. If we just go rid of taxes everything would be perfect. I'm surprised someone on here is using that line.

//also how does running permanent deficits put money back in to the economy, ultimately?

[sabrina 1]

188. Finally, so the Global Meltdown caused by corrupt Wall Street

criminals is responsible for Greece's and Ireland's and the US's and Spain's, Portugal's, Italy's and all the rest of the world's economies, collapsing. It wasn't the fault of the little people in Greece after all.

That's all anyone has been trying to tell you. Greece, like all the others, even with a not so great economy, would have, as they have for centuries, managed to survive. But once the criminal activities of the world's biggest gamblers got involved in their business, like everyone else, they were destroyed. As I said, there will have to be prosecutions before people are satisfied to just let this go. I believe we are getting closer to that day thankfully.

[4th law of robotics]

189. I. Never. Said. Greece. Was. At. Fault. For. The. Global. Economic. Meltdown

My god you cannot be this dense. You just can't. I have repeatedly refuted this strawman you've thrown at me and your response is to pick him up again and try to see if it works the nth time.

I must ask, are you deranged? I can find no other reason why you would continue to say that I am claiming X when you can easily read the dozen or so times when I specifically said that X was not true.

That's all anyone has been trying to tell you.

Which would explain why none of your responses have matched what I stated, since you would be arguing against a horribly abused strawman.

[sabrina 1]

190. Lol, 'am I deranged'?

Um, no! Disagreeing with someone does not make them 'deranged'.

What you have done throughout this thread is to defend the neo-liberal lie that the Greek people are responsible for the collapse of their own economy. That is patently untrue. No more true than to blame the people of any of the other countries whose economies are not much better and are heading towards being as bad if not worse, than Greece's.

The crooked Wall Street Gamblers collapsed the world's economy and attempting to introduce other issues to try to deflect the blame from the actual criminals, IS what you have done in this thread.

Without the massive corruption of this historic crime, none of these countries would be close to the shape their are in now.

[4th law of robotics]

192. "Disagreeing with someone does not make them 'deranged'. "

No, but repeatedly attributing something you just made up to someone else may make you deranged.

Find the exact quote where I said the Greek people are to blame for the global economic meltdown.

Do this or failing to find such a quote acknowledge that you are using a strawman/lying.

/notice how I have not attributed false claims to you? Nice isn't it?

[sabrina 1]

193. Start here and follow the subthread:

and those who knowingly committed tax evasion.

1/3 of their revenue disappeared due to people not paying their taxes.

Imagine what that money would do now.

One in three dollars, gone due to corruption and greed, every year for decades.

It adds up.

/the banks never put a gun to their heads and said "skimp on your taxes or I'll shoot!"

You will note, as you read through the subthread, that despite having it pointed out to you over and over again that the voters were deceived and betrayed, you ignored those facts and continued to blame the people. Forgive me if your own words convinced me of your determination to blame the people.

Also note the title of the OP, and the charts disproving the rightwing meme, which IS what the OP is about, that it was the people of Greece who caused the collapse of the economy.

[4th law of robotics]

195. Yes, I pointed out that tax evasion has been a problem for Greece

Now point out where I said the Greeks not paying their taxes caused the global economic collapse.

Do this or admit you are lying.

[sabrina 1]

196. Point out where you made a clear statement refuting the Right Wing claim

as seen in the OP, that they didn't?

You not once addressed the OP's main point, that the accusation that the Greeks are lazy bums who caused the meltdown because they didn't pay their taxes. NOT ONCE until finally it became too difficult to keep distracting from the main point of the OP, WHICH IS ABOUT THAT FALSE CLAIM

That is why, when you finally, after so many, many comments derailing the thread with your focus on an irrelevant issue, admitted that this was not the cause of the meltdown I thanked you.

It is an old tactic. Called a strawman. Do not address the actual issue, but deflect and go off in a whole other direction.

The topic of this thread was NOT about the state of any country's economy prior to the interference of the Global Capitalist mobsters. The entire point of the OP was to NOT allow the criminals to place the blame for their crimes on the people of Greece. Yet, you continued over and over again to point the finger at the people, the voters, the tax payers etc.

I'm glad finally we were able to drag you back to the main point of the OP. But it has been a wearing experience. Most of the other commenters as you will note, did not take up space in this thread pointing fingers of blame at the people which is totally irrelevant to the point of the OP.

Next time start your own thread if you want to talk about the periods prior to the corrupt, takedown of all these economies. Thread-jacking does not make for good discussion.

And refrain from giving me orders please 'either do this or you are a liar' is probably against the rules here.

[4th law of robotics]

201. So you're lying then?

I never said the Greeks caused the *GLOBAL* economic collapse.

You claimed I did.

You lied.

I don't like liars.

[4th law of robotics]

202. Also the OP *never said the greeks were responsible for global problems*

it was addressing the notion that they had a role *in their own demise*.

You continue to say global when I, and the OP, are discussing Greece.

That is dishonest.

[4th law of robotics]

203. So to summarize what I've stated now 3 dozen times:

Greece did not cause the global economic crises.

Greece was hit like everyone else.

However due to their profligate deficit spending they were in a uniquely bad position when they were forced to rely on even more credit-spending once their meager tax based was devastated even further.

This explains why they have weathered this far worse than other nations, such as Germany with it's far stricter policy towards tax enforcement.

Now go ahead and repeat that I am instead claiming Greeks are responsible for every economic downturn in history.

[Zalatix]

4. Ultra Rec!!!

[SunSeeker]

7. (Sniffle) Reminds me of my mom

She passed away a few years back from pancreatic cancer. She too held down two or three pathetic low-wage jobs at a time, and kept us clothed with her manual pedal Singer sewing machine. She too survived the air raids and starvation of WWII as a child, though most of her family did not, leaving her an orphan to take care of her even younger sibling. These stories are found all over Europe. To think that these proud, brave people would be left destitute in their last years of life is just unfathomable. It's the banksters that should be eating cat food.

[Peace Patriot]

9. Thanks! I've been wondering about this Corporate Media (1%) hit on the Greeks.

It's reminiscent of Reagan and the "welfare queens," and white portrayals of black Americans prior to the civil rights movement ('I don't know nothing' 'bout birthin' babies, Miss Scarlet&quot , and so many other goddamned lies--outright murderous lies or sneaky, false impressions built up over time with clever phrases and highly selective facts, headlines and images.

I'm thinking of the WMDs that weren't in Iraq, and, also, Corporate Media's snide implications about all those Venezuelans who keep voting for a "dictator" (in an election system that is far, FAR more honest and transparent than our own, which they never tell you). The implication is that ordinary Venezuelans are stupid peasants--not worth mentioning, quoting or profiling in Corporate Media coverage of Venezuela--who would repeatedly vote for a "dictator" because of "hand-outs" to the poor. What has really been going on, however, is a "New Deal" political revolution "from the bottom" (a "grass roots" revolution), which has, in fact, been the inspiration for similar revolutions throughout South America and into Central America. The Corporate Media has systematically suppressed information about the nature of this revolution AND about its immense economic and political success in the region. The many LatAm countries that elected Leftist governments over the last decade are NOT suffering from the Bushwhack-induced Great Depression (or recovered quickly and spectacularly) precisely because they rejected the "austerity" policies imposed on Europe and the U.S.

The Corporate Media does NOT want you to know this, so they LIE, LIE and LIE some more, about the Venezuelan people and their leadership of this movement.

In every case, these "Big Lies" serve BIG MONEY. The rich getting richer, the poor getting looted.

I figured this thing about Greek "laziness," too, was another lie by the Corporate Media on behalf of the rich and the corporate, who are out to loot the poor of Europe and destroy all of their hard fought for social justice programs, similar to what they did to Latin America in the 1990s and what they are doing to us, now. Induce a Great Depression, deliberately, with de-regulation and unjust war, then, "Whoopee!", sell "austerity" for the poor for yet more looting by the rich.

I'm very glad that an intelligent writer took up this issue of Greek "laziness." My instinct and my experience of the Corporate Media told me that the "welfare queens" in Greece--the mothers with two...ahem, THREE...jobs, the pensioners living on sparse pensions that they EARNED with fifty years of SERVICE to businesses or public programs, and the CURRENT workers trying to make ends meet in a bankster-looted economy--the teachers, the nurses, the factory workers, the retail workers, the tourist workers, the garbage collectors, and all the rest are NOT "lazy" people, any more than our people are, or the poor are, anywhere--because THE POOR DON'T EAT IF THEY DON'T WORK, and whatever pittances the very poor, the sick and the weak are provided for the good of all are ALSO EARNED--by suffering, by ill luck, by hopelessness, demoralization and despair and by the daily grind of being poor, sick, unprivileged and/or alone--by being human beings bearing more than they can bear.

The rich and the corporate have long been casting off the latter--the very poor, the sick, the elderly, the homeless. Now they are casting off the working class as well and our "New Deal" democracies. And, to accomplish this, they need to demonize the working class, thus the "lazy Greeks."

And, lo and behold, the Greeks, who invented democracy, have fought back with democracy--and have thrown the rich and the corporate into a tizzy, by their recent election. It's not exactly a moment to laugh out loud, but I can't help it. I did! I laughed out loud when I saw the election results from Greece (and also from France). The Europeans are starting to catch up with the Venezuelans and all the other voters in Latin America who have voted in "New Deal" governments (Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Uruguay, Peru, Nicaragua), in alliance with Venezuela, and who are experiencing astonishing economic growth and poverty reduction precisely because they rejected "austerity" for the poor while the rich get ever richer.

[Dreamer Tatum]

10. That might explode the myth of a single Greek taxpayer

...what about the rest?

Sorry, but Greece is getting austerity, no matter what happens.

[Lars77]

14. "Greece is getting austerity, no matter what happens."

This from a progressive? You don´t even see the need in expressing resistance?

I assume you feel the same way about the situation in the US.

[Dreamer Tatum]

15. So where is all this magical money going to come from?

Tell me a REALISTIC scenario for increasing Greek revenue.

Not what you think SHOULD happen - something that COULD happen, that is politically viable, practical, implementable, and sustainable.

Tell me how Greece can avoid tightening its belt. Please.

[Lars77]

17. The Greeks are victims. I thought it seemed like you didnt really give a shit.

[Dreamer Tatum]

18. In other words, you have nothing.

Yes, they're victims: of their own politicians, their WELL-KNOWN culture of tax avoidance, and their own expectations.

Hence austerity. They can't print money and avoid the problem, because that money will be worthless as soon as it leaves the presses. They can't borrow more money if their answer to creditors around the world is to "piss up a rope," as I have seen said here on DU more than once.

Sorry, them's the facts.

[Lars77]

22. I have nothing? I havent even tried to argue with you so calm down.

I am merely pointing to the fact that working class Greeks work more than almost anyone else in Europe and they still get fucked over.
Do you think they are all doing well over there? They came out of fascism in 1979 and are now trapped in a kind of colonial relationship to the central EU powers.

I don't like that, even if you apparently could not care less.

[RZM]

54. Minor correction. The 'Colonels Regime' ended in 1974, not 1979

There were free elections and a national unity government that year and the new constitution was ratified in 1975.

[Lars77]

69. Right :)

[Zalatix]

30. The Greeks are switching to a barter system. How's that for "nothing"?

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. That's actually worse than nothing. nt

[Zalatix]

40. For the rich, yeah.

[Javaman]

116. Actually, the rich are probably running the black market.

[girl gone mad]

28. Where did the USA's "magical money" come from?

[katsy]

103. The same place we are getting all of

our magical money here in the US of A?

We have an enormous deficit/debt. It is the gop's wish that it be paid by slashing wages, breaking unions and collective bargaining rights, passing out inadequarlte vouchers to replace Medicare, cuts to education... You get the picture? It's a dandy plan, no?

The working class people in Greece, those who received a paycheck from their employer, paid taxes and contributions into pension and healthcare systems. That was done through payroll deduction. It is the rich and business and professional classes that have gamed the system. It is the corrupt polititions who saw to it that the rich bled the treasury dry. Sound familiar?

To impose austerity on the working class is no more just than if we were told that our social security funds must be taken to pay down our deficit.

The rich in Greece are as filthy a creature as the Koch clan.

I don't know what a realistic plan to get their fiscal house in order would look like, but I assure you that killing the working class would be a great injustice.

[girl gone mad]

180. Well said.

Greece will need to improve tax collections (particularly on the wealthy) if they revert to the drachma.

Increasing taxes while still on the euro will only push Greece further into depression, especially when those increases are so regressive.

[katsy]

205. I have a friend leaving for Greece next week.

She has loaded up on her medications because the pharmacists in Greece have no money to buy pharmaceuticals. No life-savings drugs! People are left wondering why they are left to die.

So to those who insist that the poor (who already have paid their fair share) pay the fair share of the rich, corrupt and connected, shame on you!

This isn't austerity. This is genocide. It's murder. Kill the poor so the rich may party!

[4th law of robotics]

20. "expressing resistance"

Resistance to what? Math?

Or their own history?

I'd feel bad for them if they had paid their taxes all along then got hit by something out of their control (like Japan and the tsunami) that sank their economy forcing them to ask for help.

But they did this to themselves.

[girl gone mad]

34. They did it to themselves?

But it just happened to coincide with the global economic collapse caused by financial sector profligacy and greed?

And Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Iceland also did it to themselves at the same exact time? Amazing how all of these countries simultaneously happened to destroy their economies. And what an incredible coincidence that the destruction happened right after the banks had run up massive piles of bad debt and loaded it onto the sovereign books. Nice work, Sherlock.

[4th law of robotics]

50. You have hit on what you seem to believe is a point so you're posting it over and over again

let me disabuse you of this notion: the financial collapse didn't cause these problems. It exacerbated them.

If the current economy were the sole cause of this then why has it hit those nations selectively? Why were the other EU nations spared this calamity? Seems that Germany would be in no position to loan anyone money as they were likewise hit.

You don't understand this situation. I suggest you read up on it first if you believe the Greeks position was fundamentally sound and only hit some bumps because of factors entirely out of their hands.

[girl gone mad]

59. Actually, the financial collapse did cause these problems.

You have no real answers, you merely repeat ridiculous neoliberal propaganda.

I'm sure I've forgotten more about this situation than you will ever know since you are clearly more interested in parroting ignorance than approaching the subject with logic or reason.

The Greek economy was fundamentally sound before the crisis. The crisis exposed the major structural defects of the EMU, which were described in detail by neo-chartalists contemporary to the formation of the Eurozone. Germany's competitive advantage was also predictable and predicted, as it was built in to the treaty. But now Germany's advantage is (also predictably) disappearing.

The financial crisis caused our deep recession, too, but we muddled through, thanks to our currency sovereignty.

[HiPointDem]

92. except that there are still fewer jobs in the us than when bush ii took office.

[girl gone mad]

95. Yes, we have only muddled through.

The full power of our sovereign currency system was used to great effect to bail out the banks and to keep defense contractor profits healthy. The American people were largely left out in the cold, but we did avoid technical depression and the full horrors of debt deflation.

[4th law of robotics]

113. So nothing the greeks did prior to this in any way made them particularly vulnerable to the economic

downturn?

Interesting.

I assume then that every nation is at least as bad off as Greece (who did everything perfectly until now) or worse?

So who then is providing these bailouts to greece since they are doing at least as well as anyone else?

[girl gone mad]

182. as I have said repeatedly..

signing away currency sovereignty made Greece particularly vulnerable to the economic downturn. You should read the Wynne Godley piece I linked to (also here). This outcome was predicted for Greece and the other peripheral Eurozone countries back before the ink was dry at Maastricht.

The troika is bailing out the German, French, UK and American banks. The troika consists of the IMF, the EC and the ECB. The ECB is the European Central Bank and just like our central bank, the ECB can never run out of its own currency (the euro). The IMF borrows from sovereign currency countries such as the US and Japan as well as budget surplus EU countries such as Germany.

[4th law of robotics]

183. The Maastricht treaty was signed in 1993

19 years ago.

And you say *at that time* people were predicting a disaster for Greece.

And yet Greece's problems are entirely caused by the current economic collapse that occurred within the last few years.

Meaning there were psychics in the 90s.

OR there were long term structural problems that experts picked up on that doomed Greece's role in the EU from the get-go and this current collapse merely brought things to a head. In other words: exactly what I've been saying all along.

Please explain how, according to your own argument that this was all predicted 20 years ago, that Greece's problems are *entirely* due to the current economic world crises.

/I think in the parlance of our day "ya dun goofed". You accidentally argued my case in your desperation to prove me wrong.

[girl gone mad]

197. Did you take any time to read the piece I linked to?

Of course this disaster was predictable because the EMU was designed solely as a currency union, not a true fiscal union. As Godley wrote at the time, the member countries could not withstand a severe financial crisis because:

“If a government does not have its own central bank on which it can draw cheques freely, its expenditures can be financed only by borrowing in the open market in competition with businesses, and this may prove excessively expensive or even impossible, particularly under conditions of extreme emergency….The danger then, is that the budgetary restraint to which governments are individually committed will impart a disinflationary bias that locks Europe as a whole into a depression it is powerless to lift.”

You are totally out of your league here, talking about psychics, etc. I see you have been furiously trying to backpedal throughout this thread since your ignorant austerian talking points have been exposed for what they are.

As was predicted, when the financial crisis hit (yes, the global financial crisis, the true cause of Greece's current depression), the peripheral countries could not take appropriate actions to restore balance to their economies. This is fairly straightforward math, but you prefer to preach moral arithmetic.

[4th law of robotics]

200. And this is why I get irritated

when people intentionally lie about what I've said.

Here you are, ignorantly, claiming I'm backpedaling simply by repeatedly pointing out that I never made the claims that others are attributing to me.

So someone claims I blamed the entire worlds problems on Greece. Someone else repeated it. I pointed out that I never said such a thing and a fourth person uses that to claim I'm backpedaling.

A rational person would realize that relying on such tactics is not the sign of a sound argument.

[sabrina 1]

111. Ireland, Spain, Iceland, France, Portugal and the rest? They have no problems?

Do you know, eg, what the unemployment rate in Spain is right now?

The Global Collapse caused Greece's problems, as well as the collapse of our economy, and all those other countries, who have also received bailout money. But for how long can this go on, protecting the banks at the expense of the people of these countries? Greece was just the first domino to fall but won't be the last.

Where did all of our bailout go, btw? Why did Henry Paulson and Geithner want that kept secret?

[4th law of robotics]

112. Please compile a list of nations not affected by the financial collapse

[Zalatix]

146. That's her point. Greece was affected, and that's why they're in trouble.

Their problem is, exactly, that they had austerity forced upon them, while we took the moderately Keynesian approach.

America is slowly crawling its way out of its muck. ALL the nations who took the austerity route are sinking in the tar pits.

Sabrina 1 long ago won this argument. Her arguments are perfectly logical.

[4th law of robotics]

147. Greece was affected

so was everyone else.

Not everyone is demanding a series of bailouts.

If it were just the economy then that would not be the case.

See how that works?

And they haven't had austerity forced on them until *after* their collapse. Hard to blame austerity for their economy collapsing when austerity came second.

This is how time works in my universe.

[Zalatix]

151. If Greece had chosen a Keynesian approach* instead of austerity

they would have begun to pull out of that mess, just like we are doing, instead of getting deeper into it.

* Edited to add: that includes rigorously enforcing taxes on the rich, which kind of goes beyond us.

[4th law of robotics]

155. Again, time flows in one direction

you can't blame their response *after* the crises for *causing* the crises.

Unless we can agree on a uni-directional flow of time I really don't see how this conversation can progress.

[Zalatix]

157. Okay let me explain this slowly.

Since you are all hung up on the flow of time:

At the start of the financial crisis:

Greece was put in this mess by the same financial shenanegans that screwed up America and Europe.

As time wore on:

What made things FATAL for Greece was the austerity moves which have been an abysmal failure all over Europe.

[4th law of robotics]

162. "Since you are all hung up on the flow of time:"

It's kind a big deal. Allows us to establish cause and effect and all.

Greece was put in this mess by the same financial shenanegans that screwed up America and Europe.

That exacerbated their problems. Yes.

What made things FATAL for Greece was the austerity moves which have been an abysmal failure all over Europe.

Every other nation was able to fix their own economies and maintain social spending because they were able to collect taxes to afford all this. Greece was not able to do so because she doesn't collect taxes in this way. So Greece demanded ever increasing bailouts from the rest of Europe. Which they got. But only to a point.

Why is Germany doing ok despite not getting any sort of a bailout? Please answer that question.

[Zalatix]

171. Every other nation was able to fix their own economies? O'RLY??? ROTFLMAO!!!

You've got me on ignore now so I guess it falls to others to explain to you how Ireland, Italy and Spain are doing. Hint: they aren't showing an ability to fix their own economies.

Hooboy that was a good one.

[sabrina 1]

174. Which nations have fixed their problems? Spain? Italy? Ireland? Portugal?

That would be news to them.

[Zalatix]

185. Careful, you'll get put on ignore like I did, lol.

[girl gone mad]

198. Oh, good grief..

Every other nation was able to fix their own economies and maintain social spending because they were able to collect taxes to afford all this.

The US did not raise taxes. We cut taxes. We increased our spending (though not nearly enough) and enacted monetary policy (Federal Reserve "printing&quot .

Your questions have already been answered.

[sabrina 1]

43. You bought this garbage, seriously?

But since you did, could you prove these rightwing allegations against the poor and the working class, because they tried it here too.

We KNOW the wealthy in Greece pay no taxes just like here. But where is your proof that the working class has not? Please don't use MSM sources, such as CNN, MSNBC's economic capitalist tools, Faux and the rest of the Corporate owned propaganda machine. That is what we expect from them, to simply pass around the Corporate memos.

I have asked this question so many times, rather than simply repeat propaganda, but never get a detailed, credible, response proving the talking point, to back up this now-familiar 'blame the poor for the crimes of the Wealthy' tactic.

They need new talking points, the people are awake at last and it's the corrupt, thieving Wall Street gamblers who are currently in the line of fire hopefully facing Austerity like they never imagined, as prosecutions begin as in Iceland, and their ill-gotten gains are returned to the people.

Imagine if Greece could get back all that Bank Bail-Out money forced on them by the Global Economic Cartels??

[Dreamer Tatum]

46. I doubt you have the slightest idea of who pays what in Greece.

This isn't rich vs poor - as usual, the rich will be fine. This is Greek politics and economics coming home to roost, plain and simple.

And this sentence makes absolutely no sense:

Imagine if Greece could get back all that Bank Bail-Out money forced on them by the Global Economic Cartels??

[girl gone mad]

67. It's Greece politics and economics coming home to roost in Ireland, too?

Also Spain and Italy?

Sabrina's statement makes perfect sense. Every time the troika forces the Greeks to accept another loan to bail out foreign banks and financial speculators, more money disappears from the Greek economy.

You can't bullshit your way through an economics discussion on DU, I'm afraid.

[Dreamer Tatum]

70. Has anyone ever legitimately lent money to Greece?

I'm guessing your answer would be "no."

In any case, you are ample proof that one can absolutely bullshit one's way through an economics discussion.

[girl gone mad]

72. Way to ratchet down the discussion.

Next time add a few smilies next to those straw men.

[sabrina 1]

76. It makes sense if you know what you are talking about.

Where did all the bailout money, forced on the Greeks, enslaving them with debt for generations without their consent, go?? Where did all of our Bailout money go? Into job creation maybe? Lol, sorry, I think you haven not been following all of this, but the people Greece have and now they have spoken.

It is what it is everywhere that corrupt, unregulated Capitalism inserted itself into the systems of countries all over the world now. They've been doing it in third world countries for decades, then moved to second world countries, running out of places to exploit, using their resources to gamble with, they finally tried it on First World countries. Greece is just one of the many, many victims of this evil, corrupt system.

Maybe they should have left first world countries alone, that may be the final down-fall of this destructive, brutal system that has destroyed so many lives. I hope so. The signs finally show it may be about to blow up in its own face, like all other destructive 'isms' before it.

The Greeks will be fine, they are smart, hard-working people sold out by their own politicians like everywhere else, much wiser now and no longer so trusting as they used to be. It will be tough, but it was for Iceland also, I have confidence now that they are awake, they will work it out, WITHOUT the predatory Capitalists who caused their problems in the first place.

[Dreamer Tatum]

78. Maybe you could have a few hard numbers next time.

You posted a polemic, not an explanation or anything that would convince anyone that this was all done to Greece without its consent.

Got any numbers? Real ones?

[sabrina 1]

81. Yes, dozens and dozens, this situation has been going on for several years, where would

you like to begin? When the Greeks threw out their Government a couple of years ago after discovering their complicity in the meltdown of their economy? Or after the NEW Government betrayed the voters and failed to keep their promises to refuse to bail out the banks, AGAIN? Why do you think there have been years of demonstrations on the streets of Athens? Any idea what the people were angry about?

Read some recent history of what has been going on in Europe because it's impossible to know where to begin when someone has zero information about a subject.

Maybe check out some of the excellent documentaries that have been made about this GLOBAL crisis, yes, it was a GLOBAL crisis, not a GREEK crisis, or an ICELAND or IRELAND or SPAIN, or PORTUGAL or FRANCE crisis. Are all those people lazy non-tax paying morons also??

Scapegoats are being searched for now, as the whole rotten system is collapsing. This week Greece, next week, Spain, anyone BUT the criminals themselves.

Try for starters, watching .Meltdown, The Men Who Crashed the World' or 'Inside Job' which are both good places to begin understanding why all these countries in the shape they are in, and who is responsible. Then you can start doing what I did and do every day, start reading some of the Economic publications from all around the world which have been covering this story for years. Then we can talk about the Greek people, or about whoever is the scapegoat by the time you are finished catching up.

[girl gone mad]

86. Sabrina..

These articles which appeared over the last few days have brought me more hope, since at last some very mainstream voices are expressing support for what I have long believed is the only good solution.

Greece Must Exit
by Nouriel Roubini

NEW YORK – The Greek euro tragedy is reaching its final act: it is clear that either this year or next, Greece is highly likely to default on its debt and exit the eurozone.

Postponing the exit after the June election with a new government committed to a variant of the same failed policies (recessionary austerity and structural reforms) will not restore growth and competitiveness. Greece is stuck in a vicious cycle of insolvency, lost competitiveness, external deficits, and ever-deepening depression. The only way to stop it is to begin an orderly default and exit, coordinated and financed by the European Central Bank, the European Commission, and the International Monetary Fund (the “Troika”), that minimizes collateral damage to Greece and the rest of the eurozone.

Greece’s recent financing package, overseen by the Troika, gave the country much less debt relief than it needed. But, even with significantly more public-debt relief, Greece could not return to growth without rapidly restoring competitiveness. And, without a return to growth, its debt burden will remain unsustainable. But all of the options that might restore competitiveness require real currency depreciation.

The first option, a sharp weakening of the euro, is unlikely, as Germany is strong and the ECB is not aggressively easing monetary policy. A rapid reduction in unit labor costs, through structural reforms that increased productivity growth in excess of wages, is just as unlikely. It took Germany ten years to restore its competitiveness this way; Greece cannot remain in a depression for a decade. Likewise, a rapid deflation in prices and wages, known as an “internal devaluation,” would lead to five years of ever-deepening depression.

If none of those three options is feasible, the only path left is to leave the eurozone. A return to a national currency and a sharp depreciation would quickly restore competitiveness and growth.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-must-exit

And this, from London's conservative mayor:

Europe is driving full-tilt, foot on the pedal, into a brick wall
By Boris Johnson

I see the G8 has a brilliant solution to the problems of the eurozone. President Obama says it’s time for “growth and jobs”. Jolly good. That’s the stuff. Let me show you how to create employment – the Brussels way.

Come with me through the streets of Athens, not far from Syntagma Square, and your mind will reel with the horrified realisation that history is not a one-way ratchet, that human progress is not guaranteed, and that a proud country can be reduced – by years of torture and bullying – to a state verging on total political, economic and moral collapse.

You will see businesses boarded up and windows smashed because no one has the money or the energy to fix them, and on almost every wall a riot of graffiti full of poisonous hatred for politicians. You will see people sitting on cardboard, heads down, hands out, or pushing trolleys full of scrap metal.

Not far from the town hall, I saw a man using the pavement as an operating theatre to eviscerate a mattress for its springs. In the eyes of every politician there is a glassy humiliation, a sense that the fate of the nation is no longer in their hands. Even worse than the humiliation is the dread that things will deteriorate further still. Thousands are now being fed by soup kitchens.

Unemployment is rising by the day, and among young people it now stands at a shameful 54 per cent. Yup, folks – those are the results of an EU plan to produce “growth and jobs”. It was called the euro, and it has been a catastrophe for Greece and pretty bad (with one notable exception) for the rest of the continent.

read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/9278862/Europe-is-driving-full-tilt-foot-on-the-pedal-into-a-brick-wall.html

People are finally waking up and we are at least closer to a true resolution for Greece. I think the neoliberals are doing their best to spread fear and panic because they know that if the Greeks manage to escape the bankers' death grip and return to growth (or even stability), others will follow.

[sabrina 1]

90. Thank you! Roubini's statement here is what most actual economists have been

saying about Greece for over a year now:

If none of those three options is feasible, the only path left is to leave the eurozone. A return to a national currency and a sharp depreciation would quickly restore competitiveness and growth.

The problem has been that the PTBs have scared the people regarding leaving the eurozone. However, I hope with the people having seen the disastrous results of allowing themselves to be bullied into staying, this option will be the one they take.

I wish all of them had done so. But there will be huge pressure to prevent this. Still, all they have been doing is increasing Greece's debt, providing nothing in return, bailing out banks, and destroying Greece's sovereignty.

Remember when Papandreau proposed allowing the people to vote on whether to accept the last round of 'debt'? That was like watching an invading army coming in and taking over the country. They installed an unelected technocrat to prevent the people having a say in their destiny, a Goldman guy. Same thing in Italy.

Yup, folks – those are the results of an EU plan to produce “growth and jobs”. It was called the euro, and it has been a catastrophe for Greece and pretty bad (with one notable exception) for the rest of the continent.

Horrible, vultures and bullies, with zero concern for human beings, caused ALL of this and I hope before too long, their game is ended and finally as in Iceland, there is some accountability for what they have done.

Thanks for the links. The whole thing is the equivalent of invading armies sweeping through Europe, (S. America before them) and raiding their resources, turning the populations into debt slaves and removing their sovereignty. I wonder how history will record all of this?

[girl gone mad]

94. Yes, I do remember..

and now the "centrists" and other 'very serious people' have allowed things to get so bad in Greece that true fascists are gaining power. The Greeks have been subjected to all of this misery in the name of preserving the bankers' fiat credit cash cow and various other tools of mass financial repression. I have to remind myself every day that we are dealing with people who believe allowing the rise of fascism in order to maintain debt peonage is preferable to the democratic renunciation of financial enslavement. It's madness. "Vultures and bullies, with zero concern for human beings" indeed!

[girl gone mad]

82. Why did Greece remain mired in depression despite these significant bailout packages?

Where did the money go?

If you know something as basic as the difference between a stock and a flow, you don't need someone to hold your hand and walk you through the hard numbers.

[sabrina 1]

101. Thank you. It's depressing to see anyone falling for this

Reagan-style 'blame the poor' propaganda. Where did the money go? Not a hard question to answer at all, and once that question is answered, the reason for the scapegoating of the impoverished suddenly becomes clear.

[4th law of robotics]

51. "We KNOW the wealthy in Greece pay no taxes just like here"

The wealthy pay no taxes here? Not a one?

I can tell by your clear grasp of reality that I should definitely take the rest of what you say seriously.

[sabrina 1]

79. GE pays taxes?

Care to show us how much 'too big to fail' Corporations contributed to the tax base in this country, or in Greece over the past ten years? There are charts available just you know btw! Very illuminating charts.

Bush Tax Breaks for the Wealthy, remember those? The first ten years they were in place, cost this country TWO TRILLION in revenue, and what jobs did they create again? The extension will cost us some more, while the rest of us will still be paying, no breaks for the working class. Same thing in Greece, it's a great system, if you're part of it.

I can tell by your response that facts may not be in your possession about all of this. Snark and insults are no replacement for facts and often preclude the gathering of facts which tells me how seriously I should take your contributions to this subject.

[4th law of robotics]

105. GE = all wealthy people?

And encompasses both personal and corporate taxes?

I did not know that.

"Bush Tax Breaks for the Wealthy, remember those?"

He took it down to 0% for all of "the wealthy" (which is apparently just GE)?

You're the one who claimed (in absence of evidence) that the wealthy paid no taxes.

To defend this you pointed out tax cuts and corporate taxes.

[Zalatix]

161. Let's add Bank of America to that list.

Want to guess what they paid in taxes? Or, better yet, what YOU paid for their tax refund?

[4th law of robotics]

164. You're citing companies, when I'm talking about personal income taxes

and you're citing American companies at that when we're discussing Greece.

What point do you possibly think you're making?

Claim: Greeks don't pay their taxes.

Retort: nu uh, look at GE! That American based company got out of paying it's taxes which means ipso facto that Greeks pay their taxes in full.

Counter-retort: wtf?

[CreekDog]

158. I wonder what the right wing thinks of this?

[4th law of robotics]

11. Personal anecdotes don't trump the fact that for generations the Greeks have

skipped out on paying their full share of taxes.

[Lars77]

13. Like me saying "The Americans" have skipped out on paying their full share

After all, many in the US pay way too little tax as well.

But i usually do not generalize.

[4th law of robotics]

19. Using loopholes to their maximum is not the same

and Greece's problems collecting taxes are legendary: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki

Roughly 1/3 of the total tax revenue that should have been collected (based on earnings) never materialized.

[Lars77]

23. Yup. I guess that's what happens when you don't trust the government to take care of you.

I think its sad that the stereotyping of the lazy Greek is being used like this. They work the most in the EU, but people still have no money, the suicide rate has skyrocketed and they are being fucked over by the EU.

It's a sad state of affairs.

[4th law of robotics]

24. Well they report working the most

I'm skeptical that A) they're actually there for that period of time and B) they're actually working all of it.

We all know that you can be *at* work for 8 hours or more a day but do far less than 8 hours worth of work.

Given their generally low economic productivity I'd say they aren't being particularly diligent while at work.

And if they have issues with their government it's up to them to fix it. This is a democracy. You get the government you deserve.

[Lars77]

25. "You get the government you deserve. "

Did you feel that way in 2000?

[4th law of robotics]

26. Yep, pretty much every election

what people vote for is what they get.

That isn't a terribly complicated idea.

If 51% of a population votes for candidate X whose fault is it when candidate X wins? Germany? The Bankers?

[Zalatix]

33. More than likely that whole 1/3 is due to the rich skipping taxes.

A whole lot of Bank of America-equivalents paying ZIP in taxes.

Sound like another nation we know?

[4th law of robotics]

48. Speculation

you have no source for that claim.

[Zalatix]

97. And you have no source for your claims.

However, I do have a source for how the rich screwed Greece:

http://socialistworker.org/2011/10/06/ruining-the-lives-of-greek-workers

The effects of harsh austerity measures and a wave of new taxes that were part of the July 21 deal are already felt by working people. But for the ruling classes, it wasn't the same. For banks that want to minimize the risk of losing all their money, it was a pretty good arrangement to take a "haircut" on Greek bonds in exchange for being able to get rid of them and transfer a part of their losses to state budgets.

In the meantime, the government didn't collect a single cent from increased taxes on the rich. This crucial factor, along with the deep recession, ruined any chance the government had to accomplish its target of reducing the deficit to zero.

[4th law of robotics]

108. " And you have no source for your claims." Except for you know the source I provided

but yes, if you ignore that then I did not source it.

Just like you can fly if you can ignore gravity.

[Zalatix]

118. And you ignored the proof that I showed that you're wrong.

It is proof, and you disregarded it. Typical blame-the-poor strategy.

[4th law of robotics]

119. Please post the comment number where you provided objective third party proof

that Greek's do not underpay their taxes significantly and that their current problems are entirely based on the economic downterm and had nothing to do with pre-existing structural problems.

[Zalatix]

121. Post #97. Now stop blaming the poor. Because I will always come back and defend them.

I am tireless in my defense of the poor.

[4th law of robotics]

122. Wait, seriously? You think that article you posted is a source?

A) it was an op-ed piece from a B) clearly biased source that C) did not even refute what I had said. It merely argued against austerity rather than discussing why Greece is in this state. Seriously, find a real news source.

And of course your "stop blaming the poor" line is just silly.

Stop beating that poor little strawman to death! I am a tireless defender of all such abused strawmen.

[Zalatix]

126. Like I said, stop finding reasons to blame the POOR.

You have gone out of your way to prove the rich had nothing to do with the problems in Greece. I am going to work tirelessly to keep them at the forefront of the issue.

The rich were the biggest tax dodgers, and when Greece was crippled by this, the banks (Deutsche AG, in particular) inflicted the final blow with their austerity demands.

[4th law of robotics]

130. Find an instance where I said the poor are to blame for this

an actual one, not a made up one.

You have gone out of your way to prove the rich had nothing to do with the problems in Greece

False.

I am going to work tirelessly to keep them at the forefront of the issue.

Probably true.

The rich were the biggest tax dodgers

Depends on how you mean it.

and when Greece was crippled by this

I thought it was just the economy? Greeks pay their taxes. That's been the steady mantra in response to my posts.

the banks (Deutsche AG, in particular) inflicted the final blow with their austerity demands.

"Final blow" indicating that they had many problems prior to this?

[Zalatix]

132. Post #11.

[4th law of robotics]

138. I will repost it here:

4th law of robotics
11. Personal anecdotes don't trump the fact that for generations the Greeks have

skipped out on paying their full share of taxes.

To the casual observer it would appear that I was referencing all Greek voters for generations. They will point out facts like "4th law never mentioned the poor" or "there were no income based qualifiers" or "most Greeks are not poor so clearly he wasn't just referring to the poor".

But a really sharp observer would look beyond what was there and see what was never written. That observer is so astute he can actually insert his own words in to the statement and argue against those words as if they were real.

[Zalatix]

145. Once again you just don't get what is happening in Greece.

The vast majority of tax evasion is being done by the rich over there. Kind of like here in America. Yet you're blaming everyone. Anyone who is sharp, as you claim, notices that.

[4th law of robotics]

148. You keep repeating your argument, sans evidence

I keep repeating mine, with evidence.

A small but important difference.

[katsy]

206. The working class pays their taxes through payroll deduction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Greece

Income Tax

All Income Tax in Greece is progressive. An individual in Greece is liable for tax on her or his income as an employee and on income as a self-employed person. In the case of an individual who answers the test of a "permanent resident" of Greece, tax will be calculated on her or his income earned in Greece and overseas. An individual whose income is only from a wage is not obligated to file an annual return. The employer deducts tax from the employee and transfers it to the tax authority every month. Income tax brackets in Greece for the year 2008 were 0% (up to 12,000 euros), 27% (from 12,001 to 30,000 euros), 37% (from 30,001 to 75,000 euros) and 40% (above 75,000 euros). For tax year 2009 the respective rates were 0%, 25%, 35% and 40%, but since 2010 brackets and rates changed a lot[1].

[edit]Social Security Tax
An employer is obligated to deduct tax at source from an employee and to make additional contributions to social security as in many other EU member states. The employer's contribution amounts to 28.06% of the salary. The employee's contribution is 16%.

[girl gone mad]

38. More brilliant deductive work.

Greeks have had a culture of tax avoidance for decades, and it finally brought down their economy in 2008. It's just a total coincidence that it happened right after the global financial crisis. Wow, you're really good at this.

Germans are just smarter at tax avoidance, I suppose. I guess the Irish must be invisible tax dodgers, since clearly only poor and middle class people not paying their taxes can bring about economic collapse.

[4th law of robotics]

49. That is a really weak argument

Things didn't come to a head until a major economic crises, ergo everything was fine before.

I suppose you didn't consider the fact that this crises hit *everyone* not just Greece whereas *everyone* is not asking for a bailout to maintain solvency.

The financial crises did them no favors to be sure. But as germany and others have shown; basically sound nations were able to scrape by. For other nations it merely exposed systemic problems that had been covered up/ignored until now.

Also no one ever claimed that greeks are the only ones who have ever not paid their taxes, that is a strawman.

They simply took it to a level few industrialized nations have experienced.

[girl gone mad]

71. I showed you the Greek data from before the crisis.

There was no indication that the Greek economy was in peril. The financial crisis was, in fact, the cause of Greece's collapse and depression. "*everyone* is not asking for a bailout to maintain solvency" because *everyone* is not subject to the Maastricht straitjacket. The U.S., England, Canada, Japan, China, etc. are sovereign in their currencies and can run deficits as necessary. Sovereign currency issuing nations bailed themselves out. Iceland repudiated its banking debts and devalued its currency to restore competitiveness and ran deficits in the interim.

Since joining the euro, Greece is merely a currency user, not a currency issuer. Its debts are owed in a currency it does not control. Same for Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Notice a trend here?

Germany hasn't needed to run deficits or ask for a bailout because the Maastricht treaty provided Germany with captive trade partners with which to exercise their mercantilist dominance over the last decade. But now even Germany is in trouble. Why do you think that is?

[FarCenter]

73. Before the crisis, the Greek government could hide the problems by cooking the books.

[girl gone mad]

75. And yet government debt levels remained stable..

right up until the global financial collapse.



And the massive austerity-implemented cuts to government spending have had virtually no effect in bringing down debt levels.

[sabrina 1]

89. Excellent, thank you!

I would like an answer also, to your last question. Was it the 'German culture of lazy, non-tax-paying fools' also? Ireland, Spain? I don't know why this meme is given any credibility here on DU. Airc, Faux tried it here when our own economy collapsed, here it was the 'wellfare queens buying stuff they couldn't afford who were so powerful they collapsed the Global Economy also. Unbelievable.

[Zalatix]

134. We should rename you to girl gone sane.

[girl gone mad]

77. One other thing..

you should note that not one single country pulled itself out of this financial collapse by enacting the types of policies the Troika has demanded of Greece. As I mentioned, every country that returned to growth did so through fiscal stimulus, large public sector deficits, debt repudiation and/or devaluation to increase export growth. These are policies that actually work, as economists have known for well over 100 years now.

[cthulu2016]

16. The excerpt in the OP paints a bad picture of the article

The anecdote about a hard working woman is the very worst sort of journalism. It's meaningless.

But the point of the actual article is statistical -- that Greeks work more hours than Germans and retire at an older age than Germans and that the fact everyone is sure of the opposite is due to a propaganda campaign.

[Lars77]

21. I guess i should have known people wouldnt read the whole thing..

[cthulu2016]

27. I sometimes use four paragraphs from later on in a piece

A lot of good articles do start off with human-interest "grabbers" meant to ease readers in, rather than starting off with statistics and such.

Since you can edit, I would add the hours worked and retirement age charts to your OP.

[Lars77]

35. Ok i thought i HAD to use the first paragraphs. :)

[FarCenter]

36. Besides a few goats, olive trees, fishing the Agean, and tourists, what do they live on?

Too few resources; too many people.

[Prometheus Bound]

44. Largest merchant navy in the world by tonnage

Telecommunications, tourism, agriculture (cotton, pistachios, rice, olives, figs, almonds, tomatos, watermelons, tobacco), 19% of the EU's fish catch, cement, pharmaceuticals, beverages, rebar, cigs, beer, dairy, aluminum, big source of FDI in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania. Unfortunately, 5 of the largest 10 companies are banks.

[FarCenter]

60. 22% of Greek controlled ships fly the Greek flag

How does Greece benefit from the fleet owned by a few hundred Greeks?

Most are foreign flagged and foreign crewed and rarely visit Greek ports.

Does Greece collect any taxes on the ships? Does Greece do any shipbuilding or ship repair in its ports?

Other than shipowners being part of the Greek 1% and spending some of their money in Greece, it seems not to benefit the average Greek.

PS From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Greece

Tax Exemptions

There are several cases of Tax exemptions under the Greek taxation system, these are as follows:
- Proceeds from the sale of shares that are traded on the Athens Stock Exchange.
- Income from ships and shipping.
- A dividend received from a Greek company.
- Capital gain from sale of a business between family members, as defined by law.

[HiPointDem]

63. You seem to be undermining your own argument by giving us an example of tax evasion by the rich.

[FarCenter]

65. The Greek merchant marine is Greek in ownership only

If the Greeks tried to tax the shipowners, they would move their companies to the Cayman Islands or some other convenient tax haven.

The Greeks can't tax it because the actual economic activity is not taking place within the borders of Greece.

[HiPointDem]

83. As I said, you seem to be undermining your own argument.

[Prometheus Bound]

85. The shipping industry employs 250,000 people in Greece.

Which isn't too shabby.

January 16, 2011
In the present day, some 1,200 shipping companies are located in Athens’ port of Piraeus, the main port of Greece and one of the largest in the eastern Mediterranean. It is estimated that more than 250,000 persons depend on shipping activities in Greece, directly or indirectly, and that the industry annually generates more than $33 billion. Shipping has thus greatly assisted keeping the economy afloat in a country that suffers from increased de-industrialization, high unemployment and tightening austerity measures.

http://www.balkanalysis.com/greece/2011/01/16/greek-shipping-sector-moves-indicate-smooth-sailing-ahead/

[HiPointDem]

58. bullshit. greece's population density is about half that of germany, england, or switzerland.

greece has historically been self-sufficient in food and still is, despite trade rules that require it to import foodstuffs from trade partners.

The Greek economy produces about $28K for every man, woman & child, with industry equalling 12% of its gnp. Its shipping industry is huge, as the other poster noted.

[FarCenter]

61. Greece imports 40% of its food and all of its fossil fuels.

[HiPointDem]

62. self-sufficiency is measured by *production*, not by imports. If I import 40% and export 40%, am

I then somehow less self-sufficient in production?

The agricultural sector is basically self-sufficient in crop production, but it relies heavily on meat and dairy imports. Primary agricultural imports include cheese, beef, wheat, pork, and sugar....Greece's top five imports include: specialty cheese; beef; wheat; pork; and cigarettes.

Fruit and vegetable production is more than adequate to meet domestic demand and constitutes 40% of total agricultural exports, while olive oil, tobacco, cotton and hard-grain wheat account for an additional 40% of agricultural exports. In recent years the level of agricultural imports has decreased.

The heavy reliance on imported meats has prompted the government to seek ways to diversify the Greek agricultural sector to reduce dependency on foreign commodities and agricultural products. Recent improvements in Greek poultry farming have boosted domestic production and consumption.

http://www.ats-sea.agr.gc.ca/eur/4509-eng.htm



I didn't say anything about fossil fuels. Most countries are not self-sufficient in fossil fuels and it has little to do with their population density.

[FarCenter]

64. I believe that its imports net of exports are 40% of consumption in Greece.

In the agricultural year 2004/5, Greek exports of all agricultural products were $1,793 million, while imports were $3,184 million for a negative agricultural trade balance of $1,390 million.

http://elibrary.worldbank.org/docserver/download/4457.pdf?expires=1337726793&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=5B33274EF094D64316C50233E982AE93

Fixed the link

[HiPointDem]

66. As I said, food self-sufficiency is measured by *production* not by imports. Greece is self-

sufficient in crops (grains, fruits, vegetables), as I've proven with trade data.

Its major agricultural imports are specialty cheeses, beef, pork and tobacco.

The primary proteins in the traditional Greek diet = seafood, goat, chicken, goat cheese and yogurt. High consumption of beef = a modern development, but not one that's required for food self-sufficiency.

Your link sends me to an error message, but "agricultural products" include tobacco and cotton.

You have been unable to show that Greece is "overpopulated," or that it depends on the outside world to feed its people. You've also been unable to show that Greece has no business beyond tourism. In fact, Greece generates $28K per capita.

You have, however, given us a great example of tax evasion by the rich. Maybe you should give up while you're behind.

[FarCenter]

68. "but it relies heavily on meat and dairy imports" doesn't sound like self sufficiency

I fixed the World Bank Report link.

[HiPointDem]

80. Thank you for the revised link. The report contains a similar table for food products only,

which gives net food imports as $1.2 billion, about .4% of greek gdp.

what you haven't shown is that that $1.2 billion in imports means greece doesn't produce enough food to feed its people.

what you also may not know is that modern trade agreements *require* countries to import food, even if they don't need to. For example, Japan is *required* to import specific amounts of rice, even though it's historically been self-sufficient in rice production.

The fact that it imports rice doesn't mean it's unable to produce its own.

But what it does mean is that international financiers are, though such trade agreements, attempting to knock down trade barriers that protected domestic agriculture from lower-cost (a/o indirectly subsidized) producers elsewhere (mostly Canada, Australia and the US).


From your link:

As expected, most of the countries in the world are net food importers, i.e. 131 out of
196. This ratio is consistent with any other product group where the exporters tend to be
more specialized than the importers.

In terms of percentages, 39 percent of industrial countries, 34 percent of middle-income
countries, and 28 percent of low-income countries are net food exporters.

[ErikJ]

41. Its the REVENUE stupid: RICH GREEKS dont pay TAXES

Tax evasion in Greece is a national pastime and part of their culture. Doctors making $150,000 a year will typically declare income of $20,000 for instance. I'm sure it worse for the ultra-rich.

[4th law of robotics]

52. Neither do the poor or middle class

it's cheaper to just bribe the official.

[girl gone mad]

53. No, it's not the revenue.

Greek tax avoidance is not a new phenomenon, as you said yourself. Repeat: this is not a new issue. It is also a wildly over-hyped issue.

Insufficient tax collection did not cause the crisis in Greece and increased tax collections will not end the depression in Greece.

Once more, I'm shocked to see deeply conservative economic principles espoused on a supposedly progressive internet forum. 20th century liberals were much more intelligent than this when it came to economic matters.

A nation can't tax its way out of a financial crisis caused by private sector debt deleveraging. The one and only way for a nation to healthily emerge from such a crisis is for the public sector to run a corresponding deficit to replace enough of the money removed by debt deflation to stabilize the economy. Greece gave up its currency sovereignty at Maastricht, therefore Greece is unable to take these necessary actions. What's more, Greece is locked in to an uncompetitive exchange rate (which massively favors Germany) and so cannot export its way to growth.

Increasing tax collections only removes more money from the Greek economy, as does the austerian spending cuts and debt payments. Let's stop promoting economic policies from the middle ages which are based in religious thinking and not reality.

[HiPointDem]

57. +1

[ErikJ]

87. What? WRONG WRONG WRONG

THom Hartmann just said today that tax evasion is one of the big problems in Greece but it was Goldman-Sachs banksters that put them so far in debt by lending them money in the form of Credit Default Swaps so that Greece could hide their high debt so they could join the EU. WHen the CDS's went bust the Greek debt also exploded.

And your assertion that taxes takes money out of the economy is very wrong. It generally keeps the money IN the economy!

Thom also said that it was recently revealed that a lot of Greek ultra-rich have been hiding and hoarding their money in offshore banks like the rich here do.

That hoarded money is COMPLETELY removed from the Greek economy like here in the US. That is one of the purposes of high taxation on the rich, to keep the money in the country and put to good use for the public good which is recycled back into the economy much better than if it were in a Swiss bank.

This is just one of several articles about rampant tax evasion in the P.I.G. countries.

Tax evaders in Greece, Spain and Italy better beware
By Jabeen Bhatti, Nikolia Apostolou, Eric J. Lyman, Evangeline O'Regan, Special for USA TODAY

"Greece has a projected debt burden of 162% of GDP this year. The amount of taxes past due to the state is $78 billion, according to a 2011 report by the EU's Task Force for Greece. EU officials say that about half of that will never get collected, and the other half is tied up in 165,000 pending court cases.
Paying for things in cash is the norm in Greece (and Italy and Spain), making it hard for tax inspectors to track. In Greece, cash transactions accounted for 25% of GDP, according to a 2011 report by Friedrich Schneider, a professor of economics at the University of Linz in Austria. And the EU suspects tens of millions of dollars in Greek income has been deposited out of sight in Switzerland banks."

[Javaman]

115. +1 nt

[girl gone mad]

187. Taxes keep money in the economy?

When Greece collects taxes, much of the money is now used to pay off foreign creditors. It leaves the Greek economy and goes to German, French, American, etc. banks.

Really silly arguments you are making here.

Again, Greece cannot be competitive within the union and the fact that Greece must accumulate debts to fund its government is built in to the deeply flawed structure of the EMU. This is why it's a mistake to sign away currency sovereignty unless you happen to be a manufacturing export powerhouse who can negotiate a highly competitive exchange rate.

If the plan was merely to raise taxes on the wealthy, you might have a point, but there is no such plan and the wealthy in Greece could not cover the debts, so the plan is always to raise taxes on workers, students, the middle class and the poor. The tens of millions deposited in Swiss banks would not make a dent in the debt. Greece should take steps to improve tax collections only if it returns to the drachma. Doing so while still on the euro will simply worsen their depression.

[fascisthunter]

74. Thank You... the well off blaming the poor

deserve poverty

[Odin2005]

88. It's thinly veiled racist bigotry against southern Europeans

The bigoted stereotype of lazy southern Europeans goes back over a century.

[ErikJ]

91. And Conservative anti-govt/tax propaganda

They want to put the blame on the govt workers/spending and ignore the revenue side of the equation.

[sabrina 1]

141. Exactly, it is so obviously racist bigotry, same as we get here from the far Right whenever

there are economic problems. It is always the 'welfare queens' who are responsible, in their bigoted view. Greece is being scapegoated, oddly though, Ireland eg, with similar problems, has not been attacked in the same, vile way.

[ErikJ]

93. GS Banksters sold Greece CDSwaps and then shorted them exploding Greek debt.

This is a condensed version of Matt Taibbi's RS article for how Greece really got into such deep debt; Matt interviewed by Thom Hartmann.

Basically Greece wanted to get into the EU but their debt was too high so Goldman Sacs helped them "hide" their debt in 2002 by selling them a certain kind of Credit default swap and when the financial bust started in 2008, GS shorted Greek bonds which put them in deeper debt.

Full interview:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/11/transcript-thom-hartmann-matt-taibbi-greed-greece-andgoldman-sachs-november-1-2011

[FarCenter]

100. The fact that you have an accomplice doesn't absolve you from the crime.

[arikara]

96. I think this is the source of much of the information in the article

as it was written last year. I bookmarked it then, its worth a read, very moving and informative.

...

What is going on in Athens at the moment is resistance against an invasion; an invasion as brutal as that against Poland in 1939. The invading army wears suits instead of uniforms and holds laptops instead of guns, but make no mistake – the attack on our sovereignty is as violent and thorough. Private wealth interests are dictating policy to a sovereign nation, which is expressly and directly against its national interest. Ignore it at your peril. Say to yourselves, if you wish, that perhaps it will stop there. That perhaps the bailiffs will not go after the Portugal and Ireland next. And then Spain and the UK. But it is already beginning to happen. This is why you cannot afford to ignore these events.

The powers that be have suggested that there is plenty to sell. Josef Schlarmann, a senior member of Angela Merkel’s party, recently made the helpful suggestion that we should sell some of our islands to private buyers in order to pay the interest on these loans, which have been forced on us to stabilise financial institutions and a failed currency experiment. (Of course, it is not a coincidence that recent studies have shown immense reserves of natural gas under the Aegean sea).

China has waded in, because it holds vast currency reserves and more than a third are in Euros. Sites of historical interest like the Acropolis could be made private. If we do not as we are told, the explicit threat is that foreign and more responsible politicians will do it by force. Let’s make the Parthenon and the ancient Agora a Disney park, where badly paid locals dress like Plato or Socrates and play out the fantasies of the rich.

...more...

http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/democracy-vs-mythology-the-battle-in-syntagma-square/

[sabrina 1]

142. Thank you, that is an excellent article. Naomi Klein described this kind of predatory

assault on populations by the Global Capitalists.

[bhikkhu]

104. Good information; so if they had a working tax system, they'd be in reasonable shape

...it sounds like.

Of course the entry into the EU was a bad deal all around given the circumstances, but it sounds like the main problem is a bone-headed government that doesn't collect taxes, and a dysfunctional culture that doesn't pay taxes.

[girl gone mad]

199. That's certainly an odd conclusion to reach.

Read through the thread. Every country in Europe is in bad shape, even Germany's economy looks shaky.

No country escaped the crisis by raising taxes to pay more to foreign bankers and/or by cutting public sector spending.

This is the economic equivalent of arguing that the sun revolves around the earth. This is 2012. Economists and politicians solved this problem 80 years ago. Why are we returning to economic ideas from the middle ages?

[bhikkhu]

204. An economic crisis exposes the unique weaknesses in any country

In Greece it seems to be that the government collects too little in taxes to provide services, and that people pay too little in taxes to have a functional government. I think the figure for Greece is about 7%, versus the 18% or so we pay, and as much as 40% in other EU countries.

Its a much better conclusion than the one the OP was written to counter - that Greece is suffering because of national "laziness".

[woo me with science]

149. DU Rec. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

175. The whole "Greeks don't pay their taxes" show is a distraction.

At the bottom of all this are two facts; The government of Greece is and has been run by the stupid, greedy, and the corrupt for generations. And two, they were brought into a global con game and got burned when their partners double-crossed them.

The question is who will pay? I think we all know who the likely loser is going to be.
K&R

[Harmony Blue]

184. People buy into the RW supply side propaganda

but truth always prevails. Always.

Good post.

[craigmatic]

191. The stereotype about Greeks and other tropical people being lazy is based on how hot the climate is.

Generally people move around more in colder climates to keep warm. The Greeks and their current problems are a result of too much borrowing to pay for their state jobs. Not to mention that the Euro really hasn't been that good for them overall.

[jobendorfer]

194. I was in Greece last summer

I was there for two and a half weeks, my second visit to the country. ( I feel very lucky, believe me. )

My first trip was ~1994. This of course was long before Greece got into the Eurozone. It was obvious the country wasn't wealthy, but its economy was functional.

I was staggered by the changes that had taken place over 18 years. The first thing that I noticed getting off the metro in downtown Athens was that my eyes weren't burning. In 1994, the smog in Athens was so intense one could barely see half a mile.
In 2011, the air was vastly cleaner -- from the Acropolis, it looked like you could see forever. That was a positive change.

Sadly, the negative changes swamped the positives. The atmosphere in Athens was extremely tense. Syntagma Square, which is right in front of the Parliament building, was filled with protesters. (Curiously, "wanted posters" with photos of the Goldman Sachs executives were plastered all over the square. They were very clear about who their enemy was.) Everybody we talked to had multiple family members or friends who were long-term unemployed. The National Archeological Museum, which is truly one of the great archeological collections of the world, is tragically a shambles -- unkempt grounds (no money), literally one half of a 100kft^2 exhibit space closed ( nobody to watch/secure the exhibits ). The district between the Plaka and the Archeological Museum, that is, the city university district, looked (and felt) like a war zone. We walked fast.

On a foot trip to the Goulandris Museum, which is located behind the Parliament building, we saw several busloads of cops in riot gear, on standby ( they were a 30 second drive from Syntagma square ). We were held off from going down the street for about 15 minutes -- we discovered that so many threats had been leveled against the members of Parliament that they were entering and leaving Parliament via the back doors and the National Gardens, down the street from the Museum we were trying to visit. I guess they decided we didn't look like provocateurs and let us through, although we were followed by a couple of uniformed cops until we got to the museum doors. It was clear the Parliamentarians didn't feel safe using the front doors, which face directly onto Syntagma Square.

Virtually everywhere we went, the transaction was on a cash-only basis. Even hotels would have mysterious problems with their credit-card machines. It didn't take us long to figure out that everyone was working on a cash and/or barter basis to the extent possible. The goverment retaliated by putting limits on how much cash you could pull out of ATM machines, which caused us a few problems out island. After a few days, we never pulled out our credit cards out.

In terms of labor: the people that were working, were working their butts off. One cabby I spoke to was driving 18 hours a day, seven days a week, but barely cleared 20 euros a day after paying for gas, the lease on his cab, etc. ( Before you ask: he got a big tip. ) He also succinctly explained the general position of the average Greek towards the Eurozone and the big bank world: "Tell them back in America," he said, smiling, "We're tired of being Germany's cheap-labor bitch."

Looking back at what I saw, I can only think this. Greece is a culture that survived centuries of Turkish oppression, a brutal Nazi occupation, a very, very nasty civil war in the 50s, and a military dictatorship in the 60s to mid-70s. A bunch of preppy bankers are not going to be a long-term problem for them.

I should close with the usual disclaimer: this is one guy's point data, that's almost a year old. For what it's worth, that's what I saw.


~J.