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Wed Sep 9, 2015, 09:18 AM

On the trolling concerning transgender women using the women's bathroom.

Almost 29 years ago, one of my employees came out to me as a transgender man. I say this only to establish that I have some experience here. (I didn't even know the word at the time).

Notice that the "concerns" are almost always about transgender women using a women's bathroom. This is a red flag to me, that we are still in a patriarchical society. A society which looks at women as possessions to be guarded. A society that protected women, versus guarded, would do much more to prevent sexual assault of women and children.

That said, I will say that bathroom use was a major issue in the case of my employee. My company was wonderful in how they helped ease the transition. My employee voluntarily chose to allow an open presentation and discussion, and to voluntarily restrict his use to a few bathrooms. Note I said, voluntarily. The company would have backed him if he had not chosen this.

I think there is little evidence of transgender women being a threat to other women, but there is certainly danger for a transgender person using a men's bsthroom.

I have been in places which have had unisex bathrooms, equipped with completely enclosed stalls, no separate public urinals. Some public facilities have changed their labels on separate bathrooms to include both genders, rather than one for each. (I've always wondered why men wanted to urinals so publicly). There are solutions which ensure the safety and dignity of transgender people, but there has to be the will to use them.

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Arrow 24 replies Author Time Post
Reply On the trolling concerning transgender women using the women's bathroom. (Original post)
s-cubed Sep 2015 OP
Name removed Sep 2015 #1
gollygee Sep 2015 #3
merrily Sep 2015 #4
Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #10
Ms. Toad Sep 2015 #12
merrily Sep 2015 #18
Ms. Toad Sep 2015 #19
merrily Sep 2015 #20
Iggo Sep 2015 #14
CBGLuthier Sep 2015 #13
JTFrog Sep 2015 #17
Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #5
Ms. Toad Sep 2015 #8
Goblinmonger Sep 2015 #9
Ms. Toad Sep 2015 #11
Tree-Hugger Sep 2015 #15
kcr Sep 2015 #23
Tree-Hugger Sep 2015 #24
Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #2
merrily Sep 2015 #6
johnp3907 Sep 2015 #7
Tree-Hugger Sep 2015 #16
Vinca Sep 2015 #21
Lancero Sep 2015 #22

Response to s-cubed (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 09:31 AM

3. would you consider editing?

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but use of the phrase "normal men" suggests that transgender women are abnormal men. Would you consider changing that to "cis men?" I know language can be tricky, but that would be less hurtful to transgender people who might read this.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 09:42 AM

4. Jury results.

On Wed Sep 9, 2015, 09:28 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

The concern isn't trans women using that women's room..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7152987

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

transphobic right wing sock-puppet troll

Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't like the use of "normal men" here, but without more evidence of trollhood, I'm not inclined to hide because of that.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No disagreement or even issues allowed? Geez.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I looked for other posts and could not whether the poster is truly afraid of sex offenders or is transphobic. With very mixed feelings, I am leaving in the hope of discussion. I won't do it a second time, though.

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Response to merrily (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:22 AM

10. That jury is why DU stinks like rotten eggs. Every fucking morning it is insulting OP's about LGBT.

 

Lots of them pose as backhanded concern. But the message is always negative. Those who do this are decidedly unsavory and the stench is beginning to rub off on their cohorts.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:27 AM

12. And, as I predicted when the jury system rolled out -

It would work reasonably well for civility, but really stink when the insults were directed at minorities - and especially when targeting LGBT individuals.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 11:32 AM

18. I am not so sure about civility, either, anymore.

On the one hand, some hides that make me wonder what the reason for the hide could possibly have been. On the other hand, some posts that seem very rude to me glide by, maybe even with a juror or two chiding the alerter.


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Response to merrily (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 12:20 PM

19. It worked reasonably well in the beginning.

But I think many of the people who care most about having civil conversations have gotten tired of the increasingly hostile/black & white attitude around here and have left - or have given up on alerting because obviously uncivil and/or bigoted posts keep getting left.

It never worked well to make it a civil place for minorities.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #19)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 02:55 PM

20. I am very sorry about that. Bad enough to face stuff IRL, where you must contend with all

kinds. DU should be safer.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:32 AM

14. Fuckin' A right.

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Response to merrily (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:30 AM

13. The jury system sucks

Lets admin cash the checks with no concern for decency.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:43 AM

17. Nailed it. n/t

 

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Response to Name removed (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 09:47 AM

5. The concern isn't a concern, so you can save your concern.

The law won't back you up.

If you see someone taking pictures under a stall in a bathroom, call the police.

Nothing at all to do with trans women using the bathroom, at all.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:17 AM

8. Thank you. n/t

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Response to Name removed (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:20 AM

9. You do know that taking pictures like that in the bathroom is illegal now.

 

Neither women nor men can do that. Call the cops.

And it kind of strikes me as really paternalistic to say "letting the fox into the henhouse."

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Response to Name removed (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:25 AM

11. Nonsense.

There are laws prohibiting the behavior you are afraid they will engage in. If the laws prohibiting that behavior doesn't stop them, laws keeping them out of women's bathrooms won't either. Enforce the laws that exist.

Do you seriously think that in a public, well trafficked area a man would enter a women's bathroom to rape her? And if it isn't a public, well-trafficked area (i.e. one where he feels safe to rape), do you really think he would stop and think, "Wait, that's a women's room - I can't go in there?"

The fear of sex offenders is a bogeyman being trotted out to keep transwomen in their place, which far too many believe is not the women's bathroom.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:40 AM

15. Common TERF argument

They believe men transition to women in order to further control them and gain special access to them in order to rape them. Fucking insane belief.

Not all transphobic people are TERFs, but they usually roll out the same lame argument that allowing transwomen to exist will increase chances for men to rape women.

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Response to Tree-Hugger (Reply #15)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 05:20 PM

23. Common bigoted and transphobic argument, period n/t

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Response to kcr (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 05:23 PM

24. Very, very true nt

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Response to s-cubed (Original post)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 09:28 AM

2. The solution is already in place in several states.

 

Use the bathroom that is gender appropriate. Those states have not experienced the alleged rape crisis caused by opportunistic rapists taking advantage of the non-discrimination laws in those states. That is because this alleged problem is a right wing fantasy propagated by fear mongering bigots. Such expressions of fake "concern" have no place here on DU and the people propagating that crap should be shown the door.

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Response to s-cubed (Original post)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:01 AM

6. What an incredibly brave thing to have done 29 years ago. As we evolve into better humans, unisex

johns that are safe for all users will become more common.

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Response to s-cubed (Original post)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:03 AM

7. Your definition of a "normal man" is a sex offender?

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Response to johnp3907 (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:43 AM

16. What transphobic people don't realize

...is that their "concern" about transgender people (and almost always trans women) is also highly insulting to cis men and women. They don't get it.

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Response to s-cubed (Original post)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 03:08 PM

21. I'm still trying to figure out how anyone would know if someone was transgender in the first place.

I've never been in a lady's room that was so open one had the opportunity to examine genitalia.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #21)

Wed Sep 9, 2015, 03:55 PM

22. And that's pretty much what the 'concern trolls' are calling for.

Exams at the door to protect people. Or something.

Perverts the lot of em.

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