Use your head. Please.

[MannyGoldstein]

Whoever sent those letters to Bravenak wanted to... well, to get exactly the response they got. Why else send it? Mission accomplished.

Would it be an (actual) Bernie Sanders supporter? That makes no sense. If you haven't noticed, other than rummaging throught decent people's trash cans at night dressed in raccoon costumes, Sanders supporters are the folks that want to make love, not war. Why would a person support Bernie if they were into threatening people? Does not compute, except perhaps to the crowd that believes that only misogynists could not want Hillary to be President.

My best guess is that it was one of our friends who like to watch. And to mess with DUers. And they're likely mightily amused by their work right now.

There is some chatter about my good friend, Occam's Razor, but it is being misapplied. Occam's razor states that if several hypotheses are all equally plausible, then the simplest explanation is most likely. Even if it were being applied correctly, using it to cast aspersions on one candidate's supporters would be irresponsible. But misapplying it and making such an accusation? Grotesque.

[Luminous Animal]

1. I agree. Discussionist anyone?

[arcane1]

38. It is the logical first place to start, as fucking with DUers is apparently a pastime there.

And I can't imagine even the dumbest of dumb-asses thinking "I support Sanders, and I think this action would be of benefit".

[Art_from_Ark]

61. The thing is, how would the dumbasses on Discussionist

know how to get this person's actual mailing address?

[arcane1]

65. From what I've read, this person apparently exposed their real name and location in some posts

With that, anything else is possible.

[Bubzer]

71. Yeah, that would do it.

[Android3.14]

262. Well, there's a lesson there

[davidpdx]

396. That is why on every post about this I have encouraged people to take a look at how much

information they put out there about themselves. I have a good friend who recently went through something similar and was getting threats from someone. She fortunately knew who the culprit was and pressure was applied very quickly to stop the harassment. In this case it probably will take awhile to find out who it was. Either way, if you are on Facebook or use any other social media site make sure to keep your personal information protected.

[Android3.14]

404. Good reminder.

I just went to my social media accounts and tightened up who can and cannot see my data. Thanks for the reminder.

[davidpdx]

406. Facebook recently changed all of that and made it supposedly easier to do, but actually they

made it more complicated for most. Of course that's suppose to surprise us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

487. Facebook keeps telling me to tell it where I went to HS.... fat chance

I use my FB for somewhat of business so it has a tad more info, but I know the exact risks I am taking. I understand them... after all I am always gobsmacked at how much info there is... when I need to do this for work when somebody misbehaves...

Which reminds me. anybody on FB that does not need to have the city you live at on the profile... remove it!

[davidpdx]

519. They do try to get you to add as much information as possible

I don't use mine for business (which is good because I cuss up a storm especially when I'm mad about something politically). There are a few people from high school I've reconnected with, but the majority of the 260 odd people I could care less about.

[blackspade]

481. Irrelevant. There is no excuse for what happened.

Bravenak could have posted her addy on a billboard and it would still not excuse this asshole's stalking.

[steve2470]

492. +10000000000000000000000000000000000 nt

[arcane1]

516. I agree. I was talking about the "how" not blaming anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

493. There are 20 ways to Sunday you might have exposed who you are

so if this happens to you, should we blame you?

Most folks are not aware of just how much they give up every day and twice on Sunday.

[arcane1]

517. Of course not. The only blame goes to the person who wrote the letters.

[Bubzer]

70. My guess would be it would have to be somone who knows Bravenak's real name....

and perhaps got the information through some form of social media...say facebook. A heck of a lot of people post way too much personally identifiable information there. Or, even were it not that, it's possible someone pieced information together into a composite to get her address. We know this person is some kind of stalker...a phone-number would be more than enough to do a reverse-phone look up... and that's fairly cheap.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. BINGO!!!!

And people drop information like bird droppings all the time... this is how identity thief work as well

[Bubzer]

109. Exactly right!

The good news is, all those who have information on facebook and on other social media can either remove it, or alter it so it's inaccurate. Both options work well to help mitigate the threat.

[aikoaiko]

194. DUers are still linking to her social media that contains all the info one would need.

And now pictures of the envelope with the zip code are circulating online which will help anyone confirm what they found online.

Please note that I'm not blaming anyone except the asshat who sent the letter, but it is exceptionally easy in bravenak's case to determine her physical address.

[nadinbrzezinski]

534. You want to shake your head

it is exceptionally easy to do it with a few people here. What they have ON THEIR PROFILE, should make heads spin.

[AlbertCat]

381. how would the dumbasses..... know how to get this person's actual mailing address

Bravenak has poetry blogs and black history blogs and a ".com"... (if you put Bravenak in a Gooogle search)

Seems like it'd be easy to find out who and where she is..... if you wanted to.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

303. My first thought...

went there could find nothing. Rather exceptional since they talk about DU all the time.
But the silence may be damning.

[Roy Rolling]

305. Someone Seeking Attention

When I saw (as a casual user) how much attention the topic had generated I immediately became suspicious.

To offend people and generate conversation is the goal, don't create OPs and give them their wish.

Sometimes silence is the best response.

[Doctor_J]

384. never been to discussionist

Every once in a while someone will drag a turd from there and drop it here. I honestly can't think of a reason for a democrat to go there.

The op is correct. I think it makes Mrs Clinton's du supporters feel better to believe the letter was sent by a duer who supports Sanders.

[Blue_In_AK]

2. I agree with this 100%.

Not a DUer and not a Bernie supporter. I don't know about Discussionist, but there are other RW sites that are inordinately interested in DU goings-on.

[Luminous Animal]

4. Yep. And one specific organized board. That Bravenak was targeted sickens me. I hope she is ok.

[CTyankee]

101. what happened with Bravenak? I hadn't heard...did she get threats?

[sarge43]

330. Yes

She received a snail mail letter containing thinly veiled threats and signed "Go Bernie". The stuff hit the propellers.

[CTyankee]

335. scary stuff. wow.

I am now more on guard than ever with my personal stuff online. I don't reveal travel plans, any kinds of personal info about family stuff that can be identifiable, etc...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

489. "The stuff hit the propellers." Yep, and DUers ran with it.

[Texasgal]

3. I do not agree.

I honestly believe that this is an asshole Du'er. Sanders or Hillary supporters mean nothing.

There are mean and jerk off people on DU. Yes, shock...shock.

[jeepers]

9. DU just went through its' own racial skirmish following the netroots nation BLM protest.

It was quite divisive and contentious. I would suggest this is an outside agitator pouring salt into a community wound with the hope of dividing us and setting us one against the other. Not a DU'er, most likely a republican operative.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Not even a republican, DU does not register that badly

but this has RW certain lovely sites that have done this shit in the past written all over.

[Hortensis]

112. IS DU too small to warrant investing paid subversive(s)? Real question here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

249. This place used to be read by House staffers

and Senate staffers. It used to be a place where having a robin dirty trick was likely. This is not a roving dirty trick. That is why this makes no sense.

It has paid operatives, for multiple groups...but sending mail to a poster in AK is way out of what they do.

[Hortensis]

253. Thanks, Nadin.

[jwirr]

21. That could be another option. Someone who either

lurks or is posting. A racist who has read Bravenak's posts and want to shut her up. Whoever it was they went to a lot of trouble to identify her and send that letter.

I do not know who did this - there are many options both inside DU and outside. If it is a Bernie supporter then it is a really stupid one. They really did nothing for Bernie whatsoever. And likewise this has not helped DU.

But one very sure thing I do know is that Bravenak did NOT do this to herself. I believe in her enough to know this.

[blackspade]

482. +1000

[SMC22307]

5. It's got "Cave" written all over it.

And that person could have an account at DU. People seem to forget this is an open board... anyone can join.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. I'm not sure they'd even need an account at DU. nt

[SMC22307]

7. True. But appears many get their jollies from trolling.

There aren't enough hours in the day...

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Some of them are FORMER DU'ers who were PPRed and have more vendettas

than I have time left to live.

[jeff47]

14. I really wish we could tap their rage. Limitless, renewable energy. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. adopt an angry person and I don't have to pay the power company

sounds like a plan! Just keep them away from guns or knives.



And yes, I know it is needed

[jwirr]

26. I don't think you would - when I am not signed it I

can still come here and read. I just cannot post.

[totodeinhere]

58. Nope they can just lurk here without joining.

And they obviously found out a way to get her mailing address. I think we all need to be careful about giving out any information that might allow us to be identified. That's why I make no mention at DU of either my Facebook page or my blog. I try to remain as anonymous as possible.

[dorkzilla]

105. I lurked for years before joining

I feel horrible that she got those letters-I've had a stalker for 23 years (he's a persistent little bigger) who is pretty harmless but I had one who was so deluded that although we never spoke (he was a carpenter working in a building I worked in) he told people we were destined to be together and even though I was married at the time I was really *his* wife. NYPD got involved and security procedures were changed...and he still managed to get back in the building after being escorted out. Point is being stalked is the most terrifying experience you can imagine, and whoever sent her these letters knows that.

I still don't think it was a Bernie supporter...to be that glib and obvious to put "go Bernie" at the end of the first letter just seems way to obviously OTT that it feels really forced i.e. fake supporter who wants to see fissures in the DU community.

[jwirr]

23. "Cave"? Do not understand?

[LittleBlue]

32. Conservative Cave

You can Google it if you're interested. They have an entire forum dedicated to us.

Which is the main reason I won't give out any personal info on DU.

[jwirr]

41. Thank you. And no I try to stay away from that kind

of sites. I am older and afraid of getting conned.

[AngryOldDem]

100. Do yourself a favor and stay away from it.

CC is pathologically obsessed with DU. It's sickening. Life is far to short to spend even a nanosecond of your day there.

(And I admit by even talking about them, we're providing an absolute catered banquet for the trolls,)

[jwirr]

202. Yeah we do that with a lot of subjects IMO. We want

them to die down in the media or on-line but we just keep talking about them.

[PatrickforO]

88. Yeah, I just went on there, and they were actually naming some of the people

who belong here. The forum is called DUmpster. Fuckheads.

[romanic]

245. That's super creepy.

I know conservatives are crazy and everything but that's on a whole new level.

[Android3.14]

264. Now that is off the rails

I had no idea.

[SMC22307]

35. Conservative Cave. They're obsessed with DU.

I can't imagine having *that* much time in life, but whatever floats their boats.

I just popped over, and they're ALREADY discussing this thread. Losers.

[jwirr]

43. Thank you. I can imagine what they are saying. They

sound like a prime target. I didn't even know that we attracted that much attention outside our own posts.

[SMC22307]

51. I didn't either, until I learned about CC here at DU.

Or maybe it was during my brief stint at Discussionist. Hmm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. They got a lovely file on me

from time to time they post snippets. The fantasy writing is kind of entertaining but they are far from harmless. They have files on many people here.

[cwydro]

72. They do indeed. When I first went over to read them

I was amazed at the info they have on some DUers, especially the more prolific posters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. I just live with it

What are you gonna do?

[cwydro]

76. Well, hey, it's flattering in a way lol!

There seem to be some DUers they're really obsessed with.

I guess everyone needs a hobby, right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I "won" a few awards there

but the cheapskats will not hold a ceremony with the obligatory rubber chicken dinner, or even printed a cheap paper award.

Yeah, it used to bother me greatly, but as I said, either be afraid of the low lives (and they are not harmless) or live your life. I chose the latter. Hell, I had not been there until today. They are following all this with theater sized popcorn buckets... scratch that, they are on the deep end of the olympic pool gorging themselves.

[cwydro]

79. I haven't explored a lot there, so I didn't know they have awards !(?)

That's kind of funny.

Are these folks ex-DUers? I mean, wondering why the interest in DU?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. More than a few

the original crew are just ex from other places and originals, fixated on Libtards who are the enemy within. And of course we are primitives who have not evolved or worst, low vermin that should be exterminated in the coming race\civil war... and of course we are all poor and on food stamps... The number of things that we fit in the stereotypes the RW has of democrats (this is the common way they spell democrat) is close to 100 percent.

The fixation started early in the history of DU... so it is not precisely new. Part of it is that one of the founders lives in the same town as another regular here. And they started to follow him... as they say, the rest is, in this case rotten to the core, history.

To the inevitable jury. this is exactly how they talk of us. Ok. I actually have better grammar and can spell, the misspelled words are on purpose here for illustrative purposes only.

[cwydro]

83. Well, I used to be a real spelunker back in my college days so

I'll just turn up my helmet light and go exploring lol!

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Don't forget to make sure your line is in good shape

you do want a way out.

[Marty McGraw]

285. and by all means

get all the necessary shots & vaccines prior to proceeding into that murky hole

[sarge43]

332. And a HAZMAT suit n/t

[jwirr]

193. If I were investigating the stalking of Bravenak I think

this site might be the first I look at: files on us, racist, combative......

[nadinbrzezinski]

278. And some of their members are currently here

some are PPrd folks who hate DU and some DUers with a hot rage that makes the sun seem cold

[Curmudgeoness]

333. And this is not the only place they are watching us.

I checked out the cave to see what they had to say about this incident, and there was one comment that was telling. It referenced the DU Facebook page that is a closed group, and how posters identities are posted inside that group. I don't belong to that group, but apparently someone who posts at CC does.

[nadinbrzezinski]

342. Yup, I remember, before leaving the group

pointing this out, but you see I am just paranoid.

I am like whatever, they have a long dox on me anyway..

[kenfrequed]

282. That would make me a bit edgy

I was going to check if they have a file on me, but I don't really post enough to merit it and when I tried searching the thing was requiring me to log in.

There is no way in hell I am going to start an account on that hellish pit of suck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

286. It used to bother me.

It is strangely flattering.

What is really creepy though, is that at times personal attacks posted here, denying what I have done in my life, read verbatim. What are the damn odds?

[davidpdx]

397. Must be nice to feel loved

[nadinbrzezinski]

424. Well, dime on the dollar they got one on Bravenack

Boston Bean and more than a few others in HOF and the AA groups. They love me, as it were, but uppity women and colored (they use that and other even less nice terms there) truly drive them up a goat tree. They are prominent enough.

I am not going to join to search though. And I have been doing some web surfing into some less than nice places in the last week.

But it is the way they operate.

[Scootaloo]

95. Their threads on the subject ARE just full of smug.

[treestar]

111. Yep. They are the ones who go to the effort of figuring out

who posters really are.

[NuclearDem]

195. I doubt it. They're too busy fucking goats.

Because, as we know, people on Conservative Cave fuck goats. It might seem ridiculous or mean-spirited to say people on Conservative Cave fuck goats, but on the question of whether or not people on Conservative Cave fuck goats, it is quite clear that people on Conservative Cave fuck goats.

[SMC22307]

256. Heh. OK, then, howzabout Spamdan, Smartypants, et al.?

As asked elsewhere in this thread, who benefits from this? Those pushing the "useless white supremacist liberals aren't humble enough" narrative. Someone is still smarting from Seattle, and this letter is just icing on the "white libruls suck" cake. Now, who would do something like that?

I've been painting all morning, gotta catch up on the latest drama...

[GoneOffShore]

291. It's been said that they fuck dead goats too.

I'm not sure that the Conservative Cave people fuck dead goats, but if they fuck live goats, then the Conservative Cave people most likely would fuck dead goats as well.

[sarge43]

329. Any goat fucked by the CC creeps would commit suicide (goats have standards),

so yeah they probably fuck dead goats. Live goats don't go near them.

QED

[pacalo]

383. I agree.

Also, whoever did this would most likely have a history of alerting on bravenak.

[DonCoquixote]

8. at this point , I do not care

any more than when I hear Fox news talk all about how Dylan Roof was a loner, like every opther person that shoots up people is a loner, and the fact that they got support from bigots supposedly means nothing.

Yes, I want this followed to the end. If "mr. Citizen is some freeper/miles o Keefe wannabe, fine, he can enjoy Leavenworth, If is IS a self described democrat, I want him held up as an example of why we are sick and tired of bullshit where bigots can eat our food, take our money, and then stab us in the back.

[tomm2thumbs]

10. and Kim Davis was a 'Democrat'. Either way, the person who sent it is crazy... whoever they are

And in the end, they don't represent anything other than a sad, solitary sick person.

[bvf]

13. Thanks for the post, and for

Last edited Fri Sep 11, 2015, 02:24 PM - Edit history (1)

the correct description of Occam's Razor. I winced at a mangled version I read here recently.

Good post.

[OilemFirchen]

15. Your friend William of Ockham points and laughs.

"Among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."

[whatchamacallit]

18. And which scenario would that be? n/t

[OilemFirchen]

20. The one that uses the evidence at hand.

1) Identifies as a "DU Member"
2) Begins with "We"

That's enough. Manny's proposition requires assumptions contrary to what is known.

[jeff47]

22. Yours requires assuming that only DU members can see posts on DU.

Her home address was found via information leaked via a DU post. Anyone with an Internet connection can see those.

And we also know that non-members read DU and coordinate trolling DU members on other forums.

[OilemFirchen]

34. Nope.

This is about Occam's Razor. Again...

The only evidence is the letter. The letter writer states that he or she is a DU member. If one believes that not to be the case, that's an assumption - one not required based on the evidence at hand. Therefore, less likely per Ockham.

[jeff47]

137. No, there's lots more evidence.

For example, we know how the sender found her address. A leak via a DU post. We also have evidence of groups coordinating their trolling via other sites. Because we can see those threads too.

Additionally, you make the assumption that the letter writer is not lying.

[MannyGoldstein]

143. If one believe's it *is* the case, that's also an assumption

[Android3.14]

273. I went round-and-round with this guy earlier

He actually responded with, "Suspicion goes both ways, friend. Your interjection into this and the bravenak thread with ill-considered conspiracy shit gives one pause. See how Occam's Razor really works?"

[MannyGoldstein]

277. Why do we assume that logic is logical?

Silly preconceived ideas.

[OilemFirchen]

322. That's not an assumption about the letter.

That's an assumption about your behavior.

Something about logic below this post?

[Rex]

313. So your evidence is what someone says in a letter.

Yet you don't give a shit about the content of the letter. Strange.

[MannyGoldstein]

24. That's known information?

In that case:

Dear OilemFirchem:

You owe me $10,000.

Regards,

Manny

[OilemFirchen]

36. Yep. It the ONLY information.

Dear MannyGoldstein,

Take it out of the $11,000 you owe me.

Have a pleasant evening,

Oilem

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. You are forgetting one piece of critical information

this has been done by people from this particular site in the past to other DU'ers. There are many stories of this crap. So you might need to sharpen that razor a tad

Also here are the questions to ask, kind of basic

WHO: Citizen from the letter, who is citizen and could that be code for SOMETHING in red blinking letters?

What: Well we know the letter

WHY? The surface answers are too facile and lets just say a tad obvious...

What is there to gain? IN other words, the old CUI BONO?

Open your mind because what is happening here is part of the con... no pun.

And here is a pro tip from doing some investigative reporting... sometimes what looks like one thing, is truly something else. Actually this happens often.

[sarge43]

336. "Who benefits?"

Obviously it isn't Sanders supporters. We've been called almost every name on the latrine wall. Can't prove a negative; we're guilty.

[azurnoir]

62. well there is occam and his razor but some things not asked

what is gained from committing such an act? who benefits from stirring this hornets nest back up just when folks seem to have moved on? or was a cave dweller doing it for the lulz?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

494. Lots of possibilities, but no way to tell. Some have made up their minds.

Others would like more information.


The moral: Don't leave an online presence with your real identity.


Sorry to Bravenak. No offense, and I hope that you are alright.

[whatchamacallit]

25. So you believe a cadre of DU Bernie supporters conspired to threaten and harass

a DUer who has been on a timeout for weeks? Really?

[OilemFirchen]

29. If you mean cadre OF supporters, then no.

Nor did I ever imply anything of the sort.

[whatchamacallit]

31. Well you made note of the "We" in the message

What's the significance?

[OilemFirchen]

39. It's relative to "DU Member".

The sentence begins "We grew tired of your race baiting bullshit..."

We. As in DU.

[whatchamacallit]

40. Uh huh...

[OilemFirchen]

46. Glad I could help. (n/t)

[merrily]

304. Another assumption.

[HooptieWagon]

362. Could be a royal 'we'...

Referring to oneself in the plural.

[whatchamacallit]

365. Ha, I suppose it could be

😜

[SMC22307]

45. So much drama: Time-out, Thom Hartmann,

threatening letters sent via U.S. Mail. Seriously, who's got the time? Cavers, is my guess. They're already *analyzing* this thread. Can you imagine being that obsessed with... a website?

[Rex]

314. They take the word 'loser' to a level most humans would be ashamed of.

Yet I am convinced Cavers lack empathy or compassion and show it all the time. Even on DU when they are trolling, it is obvious imo.

[snagglepuss]

222. Since when is the contents of an anonymous letter evidence, other

than evidence that an anonymous letter was penned. Let me state categoricaIlly that I am Elvis. By your logic, I indeed am Elvis.

[Zorra]

505. heehee. I knew it! I've always believed, Elvis.

Thank you, thank you very much.

[MannyGoldstein]

19. I'm not sure that's functionally different. nt

[mhatrw]

59. Your Razor is a bit dull when you assume that somebody that despicable

would be likely to tell the truth, be honest about his inline identity and hurt the cause he ostensibly supports.

I am sure that racist, braindead Bernie supporting bullies do exist.

But I am also sure that racist Republican bullies exist in far greater numbers, even among DU's own membership.

[rhett o rick]

246. He said that it should be selected first when attempting to solve a problem.

No where does Ockham state that the simpler explanation is always more correct or that the more complex explanation is always less correct. He said that the simpler explanation should be the place to start.

[retrowire]

16. agreed entirely. entirely. n/t

[Raine1967]

27. The fact that someone wrote this in the name of a DU member is disturbing.

and I personally stand with people who believe it was from a member of this board.

I believe it because the author wrote it as such. I am willing to be wrong — more than willing — however…

that people are quicker to deny that this was a DU Sanders supporter than they are outraged that a member of DU is being targeted is very disturbing.

Too many people are trying to excuse this letter as being from a person not on DU and that is very much missing the point.

BRAVENAK IS A MEMBER OF DU. It is happening to her. It could happen to anyone, and I will be damned if it happens to a sanders supporter that get a letter saying the same thing only they say they support HRC. Try flipping it around.

Anyone's best guess is nothing.

A member of DU got a threatening letter. It was a letter that clearly said she was a target for alerts. that should give everyone pause and hopeful give everyone a damn good reason to slow down on hides for BS alerts.

[LWolf]

57. For the record,

I'm a Sanders supporter who has, until this moment, posted nothing about this topic but a post supporting Bravenak. I haven't commented on the identity of the stalker at all, and whatever my suppositions might be, they are secondary to the point: this is not okay.

Personally, I would like this stalker tracked down, outed, and stopped. ASAP. That's my only position.

[Hortensis]

117. Me too, LWolf, all of it.

[hfojvt]

28. that makes too much sense

but the other problem is - the letter described what actually DID happen.

She got multiple alerts, multiple hides and is now on time out. Now so is !SBM.

Both seemingly hidden for taking swipes at Sanders supporters.

It would be interesting to see alerting and jury stats.

[Marr]

47. I agree-- the alert record there could be elucidating. /nt

[SMC22307]

48. The letter plays right into the...

bullshit "white supremacist liberal" narrative about Sanders supporters. Someone knew what they were doing.

Skinner (58,773 posts)
1. The alert stalking claim is bogus.

The number of alerts is very small, and even if they don't result in a hidden post the vast majority of them are legitimate. Certainly some people alert more than others, but we don't see anyone doing it in a manner that is abusive. Yes, some alerts are occasionally bogus, and yes sometimes people alert on other people multiple times -- I have even done so myself from time-to-time. But the system has shown itself repeatedly to be self-regulating -- juries rarely if ever hide posts that do not deserve to be hidden, and if a person sends an alert that is found to be bogus they temporarily lose their ability to alert.

The alert stalking claim persists because some people here want it to persist. They don't want to consider the possibility that their own posts were hidden because they deserved to be hidden on the merits.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4282915

I'd be interested in jury stats as well.

[hfojvt]

55. well I guess he would know,

thanks

I am not sure I agree about the "juries rarely hide posts that don't deserve to be hidden'

but that could work both ways. Sometimes some people are upset that a post was NOT hidden and other times upset that it was. I disagree with some of the hides on both 1SBM and Bravenak that I have looked in to, but the last one was voted 6-1, so I guess I am in a minority.

Once I tried to keep my own stats on my own jury duties, but it was too much work. I wanted to see how often I disagreed with a majority of the jury. As I recall, the answer was - not very often. Plus there were times when I was the swing vote, when a vote was 4-3 or 3-4, although really all four of us are swing votes, not just me.

Sometimes I am torn between keeping it or nuking it, my bias is towards letting it stand, especially when I have seen much worse. Skinner perhaps wants us all to be much more civil than we generally are.

I also have a problem when a post says basically "FU 2". I would like to hide it, but when I see two people exchanging insults, I don't like to hide just one, especially if it is kinda hard to tell who started it. Mods used to be able to wipe out whole subthreads. If somebody is told basically "FU" I kinda understand if they respond "FU 2".

[SMC22307]

78. I've recused myself from jury duty lately...

mostly from those "FU 2" threads. I don't have the time (or inclination) to scroll through some of those epic threads where there's a whole lot of misbehavin' going on. But compared to the internet overall, DU is like a little oasis. Twitter? Yahoo? Total toxicity.

I forget the parameters of the Jury Blacklist. Five with no star and 15 with a star? That's a pretty cool feature.

There's a pattern lately: people are taking their chances and losing. And they're very vocal about condemning DU and the site owners, which I don't think is fair. This drama plays right into the "white supremacist liberal" narrative pushed by #BLM, and it's bullshit. In contrast, a high-profile Vermont Sanders supporter has been sent on forced vacations, and I don't ever recall hearing her whine about it. It's all a big conspiracy, though, for some others.

Yep, someone knew *exactly* what they were doing with the letter(s) to Bravenak.

[jfern]

87. I highly doubt it was a Bernie supporter

Clearly someone trying to stir up shit to feed the existing narrative of white supremacist liberals for Sanders.

[HooptieWagon]

378. Transparency would alleviate concerns about the jury system.

Since the alerter remains anonymous, and alert/jury data not released, there of course will be speculation that the system doesn't work. If the system is working fine, then that data should dispel concerns.

[SMC22307]

390. I must be one of the very few who doesn't have major concerns about the jury system.

My take is that a certain group of posters have a narrative to push ("white libruls suck!&quot , and they're taking their chances with the jury system and losing, then whining about it. Because of this Bravenak brouhaha, we've got some posters consulting attorneys, others demanding that Homeland Security get involved, one nailing black Jesus to the cross in the AA Group, and some stating they're now fearful of posting to DU. That's a whole helluvalotta drama. My guess is Bravenak is sitting back enjoying a smoke and eating up all the attention. She couldn't go quietly like everyone else on time-out... she reached out to Thom Hartmann, and now this with the *mysterious* letter.

This from Skinner is interesting:

Star Member Skinner (60,641 posts)

1. 1StrongBlackMan is a smart person.

He knew he had 4 hides, and he knew that one more would lead to a suspension. Despite that, he went ahead and posted: "Idiot and Bernie supporter are not necessarily exclusive descriptors."

When he posted that, he knew that he was likely to get a 5th hide, and a suspension, but he did it anyway. That post was his choice.

There are currently a very small number of people who are on suspension for five hides. Two thirds of them (including 1StrongBlackMan) are people who have been previously suspended for five hides and know exactly how the system works. They are people of all different races, genders, and sexual orientations. They are supporters of Sanders and Clinton, and people who don't support any candidate. The one thing these people with multiple suspensions have in common is that they did not appear to make any effort to change their behavior. That is their choice.

But let me be clear: The people with multiple suspensions (and even people with just one suspension) are EXTREME outliers. They represent a fraction of a fraction of DU members. The vast majority of DU members are able to participate here without ever coming close to that 5-hide threshold. And the reason they never come close to being suspended is because they are making an effort to be civil, non-disruptive, even positive members of the community. It really isn't hard to do, but you have to actually try.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=8650

As suggested down-thread, posting the police report, with certain info redacted, would be helpful.

[davidpdx]

400. Also very interesting....

I don't frequent AA, but it intriguing to hear Skinner's take on this stuff. He seems to dismiss the CT stuff pretty quickly on the jury stalking. I know there are DUers who are on vacation from different groups and who support different things. It seems to me that a certain group is quick to claim that only two groups are affected and they overlap quite a bit.

[SMC22307]

415. I'm pretty impressed with how even-keeled and neutral/fair he seems to be.

There are overlapping groups -- definitely two, more like four -- which are hell-bent on portraying DU in the worst possible light. But they're also the ones who claim DU isn't the real world, yet spend an inordinate amount of time on the site. The general gist is that DU is any number of the many -ists and doesn't care about women or POC, and that the owners are apathetic about it all. Now, why would these folks push that narrative? Even a notorious ranter has posted -- with glee -- stats supposedly showing how DU's readership (or whatever the term is) has fallen off. A couple of her OPs were hidden and/or locked recently... posts whining about DU. Then the whole *victim* thing starts. What's the agenda? "White liberals suck?" We've already got Ann Coulter for that... why are supposed Democrats bringing it to this site?

The more I think about this, the more it seems to be some sort of *revenge* for "useless white supremacist liberals" telling "Bow Down Bernie" #BLM to stuff it. Were you online that weekend? It was, for me, the most intense I've ever seen DU (but I've only been here since 2013).

As asked elsewhere... who gains? Where's the police report?

If I'm wrong about the letter, I'll admit it.

[davidpdx]

518. I was and I know exactly who you are talking about

I think there is a lot of jumping to conclusions about who wrote the letter and what the motives of the person was. We may never know for sure. It was creepy as hell to do that to someone. People do need to keep it in perspective though that the threat was to get that person banned from DU, not to physically harm her or her family. If it was a DUer, I hope they are banned for life (there is a possibility it could have been a former DUer as well).

While being banned from DU would be disappointing, life would go on. Certainly if I wanted to I could walk away from DU and it would be no huge loss. I like talking politics and that's why the site interests me, but I have plenty of other stuff going in my life as does everyone else on here most likely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

425. That is true, they overlap

but the problem is actually real. Skinner also dismisses the very real bullying that happens here. What he is doing there is blaming people.

What this is doing though is that it is chilling speech.

I know that I will not post here anything we produce at reporting San Diego...no analysis, no primary coverage, if (when) we have a major fire people can find out on CNN. I am waiting from the Health department the numbers of people who died this heatwave. News worthy, yes...DU worthy...I like not to get sweaty palms palms and fans, thank you very much.

I offered him raw audio from experts on cyber bullying and bullying in general. He is managing a website, but he refuses to see he does have a real issue and blames the victims.

As to people leaving DU...antisemitism will become a real problem. It already is starting. That is my exit point, because it will be tolerated.

[davidpdx]

515. Well I have offered to others if anyone is willing to start an informal group

on jury reform, I'd be willing to help. There were plenty of good ideas thrown around in that one thread in AA. Maybe it's a matter of consolidating some of the better ones and getting enough long term DUers to support such an idea. Just my 2 cents.

[davidpdx]

398. Thanks for posting that

Though it is a bit dated (It was from Jan 2014 here is the original link), I wonder if Skinner would still say the same thing.

[SMC22307]

418. From ATA, this Skinner post re: hides is dated 09/11/15.

Star Member Skinner (60,647 posts)

1. 1StrongBlackMan is a smart person.

He knew he had 4 hides, and he knew that one more would lead to a suspension. Despite that, he went ahead and posted: "Idiot and Bernie supporter are not necessarily exclusive descriptors."

When he posted that, he knew that he was likely to get a 5th hide, and a suspension, but he did it anyway. That post was his choice.

There are currently a very small number of people who are on suspension for five hides. Two thirds of them (including 1StrongBlackMan) are people who have been previously suspended for five hides and know exactly how the system works. They are people of all different races, genders, and sexual orientations. They are supporters of Sanders and Clinton, and people who don't support any candidate. The one thing these people with multiple suspensions have in common is that they did not appear to make any effort to change their behavior. That is their choice.

But let me be clear: The people with multiple suspensions (and even people with just one suspension) are EXTREME outliers. They represent a fraction of a fraction of DU members. The vast majority of DU members are able to participate here without ever coming close to that 5-hide threshold. And the reason they never come close to being suspended is because they are making an effort to be civil, non-disruptive, even positive members of the community. It really isn't hard to do, but you have to actually try.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12598641#post1

It's what I expected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Ok what site watches DU to the point that they know what happens on DU better than most DU'ers do

secondly, what site has a bunch of former DU'ers with a longer axe to grind than most of us have days to live? (I know mixed metaphors)

And thirdly, members of what site have done this shit in the past?

(Granted, there are actually two or three that qualify, but one in particular)

Oh and since they are following. Hi guys... you really need to get a life!

[snagglepuss]

227. What you're missing is that there have been numerous threads detailing

Bravenak's suspension. If one of those details were private, known only to a few than I'd believe that a DUEr was definitely responsible. But as it stands the asshat who sent the letter in only allegedly from DU and only allegedly a Bernie supporter.

[hfojvt]

247. I am not really missing that

I am just saying that the "underlying complaint" is still an issue - even without the letter.

There is still the perception that what the letter threatened IS really happening. A perception heightened by now having at least three members on suspension.

Is this our first primary under the jury system? I think it must be. The perception is that some people in the primary wars between Sanders and Clinton that members of each group are going to use the jury to go after members of the other group. Which is especially tough for Clinton supporters/Bernie critics since they are likely to have a jury that is 70% Bernie supporters.

I think supporters of any side need to remember something - we NEED each other in November. So even if we fight and argue now, we should try to do it in a way that is not hateful.

Maybe I just feel that way because I am not on any side.

[zeemike]

30. I saw the post but did not read the letter.

It was printed sideways and it hurts my eyes to try to read in that way.

But I have been on the internet long enough to know the games people play...and the favorite one of the RW is outrage...they just love it. And some of us love it too, there is satisfaction in feeling like a victim in the struggle you are devoted to.
But then I was a big fan of the book Games People Play and Transactional Analysis.

And we are naive to think there are no right wingers here...in fact I know they are. This is a playground for the outrage creators. They get a thrill up their leg from creating things like this. It is the game of let's you and him fight.

[Juicy_Bellows]

89. Here ya go, amigo.

http://postimg.org/image/epk9m9um5/

direct links seem to be busted on postimage but the link is clean!


And if you still wish not to click a weird link, here's the text:

bravenak,

We grew tired of your race baiting bullshit against the only candidate that actually cares about the plight of minorities and the 99%. You and your fucking lying "I really like Bernie" bullshit. So you got 4 hides in one day. You deserved more.

When you come off suspension, you keep running your fucking mouth, guarantee you're going to get alerted on and suspended again. We'll make a point of it. There's a hell of a lot more of us than there is of you. So I suggest you dial it back a whole fucking bunch.

GO BERNIE!!!

Mr. Citizen
DU Member

[zeemike]

107. Well thanks, now I know what was said.

But frankly to hear it described I assumed there were death threats in it.
Even seen the post suggesting it should be investigated by the police.

[SoapBox]

33. K & R!

Thanks Manny.

[Hydra]

37. I think the trail should be followed and the full extent of the law applied

And the entire story of what was done and why to be posted here if it can be found out.

In the mean time, if this is used as an excuse to attack people on this board, I'm going to take a dim view of it and of the posters involved.

[arcane1]

50. Exactly. Nobody should be allowed to exploit this here. n/t

[m-lekktor]

68. that's already passive-aggressively happened, your last sentence. nt

[pa28]

42. Critical thinking in an emotionally and racially charged situation. Yes please.

I'm having a hard time buying the idea the whole Democratic family is under attack by crazed Bernie fans. That's not how we think or act.

[Marr]

44. It *could* be a rabid Sanders supporter. It could also be a Hillary supporter. It could

also, and mostly likely, I agree, be some right-wing douchebag. All we know is that a couple of threatening letters were sent.

[geek tragedy]

49. DUers have sent rape threats so who knows? Psycho criminals

come in all ideological stripes

[Cosmic Kitten]

52. Most remarkable is the "threat" was.... ALERT STALKING!

Of all the talk of alert talking,
most coming from a particular group,
the specific threat was to alert on posts!!!!
dun dun dun!

"They" are trying to silence some voices!
"They" work through stealthy alert stalkings!

Someone call out the scooby mobile!
We need those meddling kids to find out
who done it!

Alert stalking is cereal bidnez!

<insert silly emoji here>

[geek tragedy]

92. You apparently stand with the letter writer. nt

[Autumn]

263. Skinner explains the time outs and details how they can be avoided

for those who are concerned about voices being silenced.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12598641

[zentrum]

54. Can't believe it was

….a genuine Bernie supporter. There's something very foul in Denmark.

[840high]

60. Not for a minute did I think

it was a Sanders supporter.

[HubertHeaver]

63. I saved the letter to my hard drive and rotated it so I can read it

without getting a stiff neck.

The author has some education, probably high school, possibly some community college. The spelling is good. Sentence structure is poor and word usage is fair to poor and rather GI-ish. Hint--favorite modifier is "fucking".

My guess is a group of 6 to 8 individuals who work and travel together.

And, if they are military, they are in deep do-do.

[sarge43]

344. If they are military and active duty, up to their lower lips in fecal material

Uncle gets very annoyed with troops bothering tax payers

[HubertHeaver]

364. no...uh...fecal matter

in lieu of that other word

I have no way of knowing for sure. Someone who thinks he's anonymous and/or invincible.
Just has that "feel" to it.

[sarge43]

369. It does have the odor

Re matter vs material. Personnel/admin type here - never use a common term when the more oblique and vague will do. As in "descended rapidly and combusted" rather than "crashed and burned".

[TDale313]

64. Whoever sent these, it's seriously fucked up.

Complete invasion of privacy and the very act of taking this offline is threatening. And I absolutely believe she received these letters. And I think it's sickening and wish her and her family safety and peace of mind.

That said, I do not take any claims this pos makes about who they are or why they did this at face value. People can claim all kinds of things. If I tell you in a letter I'm a Nigerian Prince in exile who will make you incredibly wealthy if you will only give me access to your bank account and other personal info... there's a high probability I'm full of shit.

[bettyellen]

66. thanks for sharing your concern

[CreekDog]

85. seems like there is a little concern about bravenak herself

hmmm, maybe I have to read it again, I was just assuming it was in there.

[leftofcool]

269. Yea, he's right on top of this eh?

[frylock]

69. The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street

[Juicy_Bellows]

80. A winner is you! This episode is the epitome of what I believe the letters author wanted. nt.

[Logical]

102. +1000, you nailed it! Nt

[zappaman]

75. Thanks Barnaby!

[CreekDog]

82. It seems like your primary concern here is that a Bernie Sanders' supporter is being blamed

I think I'll save my recommendation here because you know...this OP's priorities.

[joshcryer]

86. The way certain "supporters" reacted to BLM...

...almost assures me that the sender of the letters is a "supporter" of Sanders in some form or another. One thing that Sanders supporters forget is that Sanders has been attractive to a lot of conservative types.

The simplest explanation is not that some troll bothered to rile up DU by doxing someone and sending letters. bravenak was called a "race nagger" here. And a jury let it stand. To act as if this behavior is beyond some Sanders "supporters" is actually the more complicated and difficult to prove proposition.

The reaction to BLM here really bothered me.

[pnwmom]

98. Once again, the voice of reason.

Yes, that the letter IS what it appears to be, sent by the person he claimed to be, is the simpler explanation!

There are tens of thousands of Bernie supporters on DU and there is no reason that that group would be the only group on DU without any bad apples.

[jeff47]

181. Except this isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened.

The folks at the cave have done this kind of thing before. And they already have "files" on many prominent DUers.

Which is more likely: They did it again, or someone else decided to start using their tactics from scratch?

[joshcryer]

345. It's not the first time people have dissed the AA community here.

Hell, mention alert stalking one time and you'll get a post hidden.

[nadinbrzezinski]

350. Josh I have been alert stalked

and bullied relentlessly.

It is a real issue the admins refuse to meet face to face and admit that perhaps exists. and keep blaming the victims for. No, it is not me, it is not them... we have a problem.

It is not just the AA community though that is getting the lovely treatment from a few bad apples. They might not be the same bad apples, though if you draw a VENN diagram, I am willing to bet that some are.

I have said for a long time that this is a problem on DU... bat signals, alert stalking and bullies. Perhaps finally something will be done about it. Alas, I am not going to hold my breath... or I will go blue and die. In fact, I expect these folks to continue to misbehave because they can.

[joshcryer]

391. I've seen the bullying against you.

But look at the hides in this very thread and tell me it's not the thing we speak of. It is. It's bullshit. You may not necessarily like the posters who got hides but those hides were not justified in any way. OK maybe one of them barely was (but in context I really don't think so; JT was referring to TWM).

And for what it's worth I don't understand the obsessive hate toward you by some DUers. I don't know if forced ignore is in use any more but for some users it's necessary. I can name two DUers who have it out for you for some bizarre reason and I haven't seen any spats recently so I don't know if forced ignore is in effect but it should be when people are pretty much incessant in their replies and attacking.

Since using ignore I know that the most vile haters of me are very likely responding to my posts and dropping shit comments but I don't see them. It sucks because if it's happening I would like to defend my position. But I doubt I'm able to do so. And I don't view the site without ignore on just to see. It's in the back of my mind at this point.

It's really simple to read hidden posts. Tell me you don't agree that most of the hidden posts in this thread were remotely undeserved. I'm sorry but it's absolute crap. Either outside lurkers are infiltrating juries or we have a real problem here. It's really sad.

BTW, I disagreed about your post about Marissa (BLM). And I didn't post in that thread because I knew it would get heated and I respect you. But you have to know that certain posts in that vein were very hurtful to me. Very.

[nadinbrzezinski]

423. It is

i am the absolute last person that will deny it. It is a real issue. But skinner keeps claiming it is what we post and who we piss off.

It is bad enough that yes, it is chilling speech. I know I will not post anything we produce at Reporting San Diego and now have a growing list of subjects I will not post here, period.

The ultimate goal is to drive people away. I know that is their goal. And if I should reach for some tin foil, it is not a bug, but a feature. Why it is allowed.

[davidpdx]

401. It could very well be a Sanders supporter who is NOT a DUer

I have brought this up before, that one does not have to be registered here to read the board. Even if the person did register they could create a fake email address easily. While MIRT works hard to zap people like this, it's not 100% full proof. Said troll wouldn't even have had to been on a jury. Empty threats are made all the time (unfortunately, we don't know if it is an empty threat or not until someone acts on it), the sick bastard who wrote it could be gleeful that a fifth hide was given. I'm not saying this is what definitely happened, but it is possible. People need to realize there are several possibilities and we can hypothesize until the end of time, but no real proof exists yet. Maybe, just maybe we will learn who did it.

[joshcryer]

402. The writer had intimate knowledge of hidden posts.

They were most certainly registered. The OP is regarding Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is that it was a deluded, hateful, Sanders supporter. That should not reflect on sane, reasonable, kind Sanders supporters. Who, btw, make up the vast overwhelming number of Sanders supporters.

[davidpdx]

405. I agree with you on the last part

On the first part, could someone who is not registered obtain the same information or would that be hidden to them? I know from my very short time on MIRT (I've only been on it a few weeks now and this is my first time) that most of the registered accounts by trolls are zapped pretty quickly especially if there are connections (I won't say how out loud because that would give things away). So far I only have one zap, but I'm doing my best to help keep DU safe.

[joshcryer]

408. The dox could've been second hand.

Not necessarily someone who was registered here, no.* But given the substance of the threat I have to go with MrScorpio. It was someone here and it was someone vicious.

*no dox without someone registered here relating that info to someone not registered here, however, her FB page was public but only to known DUers, so the info got out through someone "trusted." And by "trusted" I mean anyone on this site with access, not necessarily a friend or someone that they trusted in real life. Just someone who passed info on.

At this point to me it's irrelevant how it got out. It got out. And some seriously fucked up people enabled it. Those people are scum. It could not have happened without members snitching or giving up info. Simple fact.

[davidpdx]

410. Ok, I see what you are saying

So there is likely more than one person responsible for this.

[joshcryer]

411. Yep.

As is always the case with AA posters, many of them who have been suspended from posting. I think at this point we're looking at literally a quarter of all AA posters on DU on suspension. How must they feel? It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm this close from quitting DU. I am a Sanders supporter but something is seriously wrong here. The backlash is unwarrented.

[davidpdx]

412. I don't know about how high the number of AA posters being on suspension, but this was

posted up thread by someone. It was a recent inquiry to Skinner about those who have more than 5 hides:

He knew he had 4 hides, and he knew that one more would lead to a suspension. Despite that, he went ahead and posted: "Idiot and Bernie supporter are not necessarily exclusive descriptors."

When he posted that, he knew that he was likely to get a 5th hide, and a suspension, but he did it anyway. That post was his choice.

There are currently a very small number of people who are on suspension for five hides. Two thirds of them (including 1StrongBlackMan) are people who have been previously suspended for five hides and know exactly how the system works. They are people of all different races, genders, and sexual orientations. They are supporters of Sanders and Clinton, and people who don't support any candidate. The one thing these people with multiple suspensions have in common is that they did not appear to make any effort to change their behavior. That is their choice.

But let me be clear: The people with multiple suspensions (and even people with just one suspension) are EXTREME outliers. They represent a fraction of a fraction of DU members. The vast majority of DU members are able to participate here without ever coming close to that 5-hide threshold. And the reason they never come close to being suspended is because they are making an effort to be civil, non-disruptive, even positive members of the community. It really isn't hard to do, but you have to actually try.

The unfortunate thing is quitting DU will do nothing. We have to be proactive with trying to get people not to over react to stuff when they try to set the bait (this goes for all sides). I think a lot of stupid shit is being said on DU these days and while I'm all for people speaking their mind, there needs to be a lot more thinking before people hit the button that says "Post my reply!"

[joshcryer]

414. stevenlesner posted a link...

...that tallied up the AA suspensions and got ... his post hidden. Sorry Skinner is just not equipped to make his analysis. Yes, one post may have deserved a hide here or there. But the overwhelming hides of AA members and their "white uppity supporters" is absolutely ridiculous.

[SMC22307]

431. "Sorry Skinner is just not equipped to make his analysis."

Could you please elaborate on that statement?

[nadinbrzezinski]

437. I will

because I have pointed to him the bully problem. His answer is blaming the victim. There might be legal reasons to this as well Since Facebook denied the problem until they were sued in court. Of course in that case somebody committed suicide...but IMHO it is just a matter of time here.

After that they became more proactive. Literally admitting he has a problem could be all it takes for somebody to sue and win in court.

Of course, not doing a thing and hiding head in the sand, is just as actionable as more and more social media sites get sued. When DU was established there was little precedent...now there is a growing body and when giants like FB and twitter have lost, or settled out of court, the settling is far more common...

There are twenty reasons I hand moderate RSD.

One of them is bullying. It is a bully free zone. I will allow some pretty weird stuff in the comments section. I am proud to say none of my readers have been ever bullied. I caught all attacks in that very tight net.and trust me, some were extremely nasty...

Granted, that is also partly due to me. A good number of the cave is caught in the IP net, and sadly 5 people from here as well.

[davidpdx]

514. Ok, that could be why I didn't see it

I also don't go through every thread, so I miss a lot that is talked about. I won't ask you to post the thread because I don't want you to get a hide.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

495. No. Not really. The writer seems to be able to read other posters post on Bravenak suspension.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/118720393

and

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=58380


But that doesn't mean that they weren't registered.

The simplest explanation is that it was a deluded, hateful, Sanders supporter.

No, not really. The sophomoric one perhaps... in a closed universe perhaps...where accusations can be leveled without proof.

[Zorra]

90. A herd of jackalopes came through the lower forty and ate my cabbages this morning.

Here's a photo.

[bettyellen]

230. mocking those who get stalked? and people actually argue DUers are above this kind of stalking....

while a few here are happy to make light of it, right here in this thread. Lovely.

[leftofcool]

272. Did you really expect any better?

[leftofcool]

271. Pathetic and predictable

[joshcryer]

392. What else to expect from they who coined the term...

I mentioned in a post above.

[lovemydog]

91. I've learned here that when someone mentions Occam's Razor

a mountain of preposterous speculation will surely follow.

[geek tragedy]

93. Ditto "cui bono" nt

[lovemydog]

94. That too.

I'm waiting for someone to say 'follow the money.'

[pnwmom]

97. Hah! n/t

[pnwmom]

96. Or maybe, Occam's Razor, it was sent in a misguided attempt by a hostile person to shut Bravenak up

ANY large group of people, including DUers and even Bernie supporters (who comprise most of DU), can include some bad apples.

So the simplest explanation is that the situation is exactly as it appears on the surface: that some disturbed, hostile Bernie supporter didn't like her political views and wanted her to shut up -- just as the note demanded.

[CJCRANE]

99. Occam's Razor isn't what people think it is. It increases in accuracy the more information you have.

(This is in support of your post Manny, just pointing out how Occam's Razor works).

So the logical assumption we have with the current information...may change as we get more information.

[boston bean]

108. And what information is there that someone other than a DU Bernie supporter sent the letter?

I know of none, but I read a lot of conspiracies about a Hillary supporter sending it to make Bernie look bad, or that the receiver sent herself the letters.

Which ARE not facts.

The facts we have in front of us are the letters and the envelopes and the information contained there in. There is nothing in the evidence to suggest it was a Hillary supporter of the receiver sending them to herself.

That is plain old conspiracy theory and not Occam's razor.

The simplest explanation is to be derived from what we have in evidence, not made up shit.

[jeff47]

183. History.

The folks at the cave have harassed other DU'ers in real life before. They also have "files" on prominent DUers.

Which is more likely, they did it again using information they already gathered, or someone else started from scratch?

[boston bean]

192. That is not in evidence. The email sounds just like responses I've heard here from actual Bernie

supporters here on DU. I am sorry to say, but that is the truth of the matter and I know it is not flattering. So common sense leads me to believe the writer of the letter that he is a supporter of Bernie and a DU MEMBER. Just as he states in the letter himself.

That is all that is in evidence, everything else is just conspiracy speculation.

[jeff47]

217. Neither is it in evidence that they are a DUer.

They claimed it in the letter, but that makes no sense. There's no gain by saying "I'm a DUer and I alert stalk". Bravenak isn't going to run away from that.

Again, doesn't mean it is impossible for this to be a DUer. There's an asshole in any sufficiently large group. But why should we take the letter at face value? We already know it is an attempt to manipulate.

[boston bean]

218. When the letter reads like posts I've read here on DU, and they talk about alert stalking her, I do

believe they have an account here.

And the posts I am referring to are the ones calling her a race baiter and not really a Bernie supporter. Yeah, all that shit got said here by members in good standing.

[jeff47]

220. Because it's utterly impossible to write similar things as a non-DUer?

Again, we already know the letter is an attempt to manipulate. Why blindly trust any of it?

[boston bean]

221. Well, I guess it does say something that virtually the same thing was written here

by members in good standing to bravenak and nothing came of it.

[jeff47]

228. And I can cut-n-paste those posts without being a DUer.

The letter is a pretty obvious attempt to create a schism. So the letter writer is going to do whatever they can to create that schism, whether or not they are truthful.

It could still be a DUer. And it could not be a DUer. Hopefully it gets tracked back to the sender and we can find out.

I'm probably coming at this from a different angle, because I've run into too many "clever" people who pretended to be someone else in order to infiltrate/disrupt an online group. That makes me inherently suspicious of something like that letter. That suspicion may be warranted. Or not.

[boston bean]

229. uh huh, you could. but really want to go the conspiracy route versus what is plainly in view.

I will deal in facts of the letters and history of bravenaks treatment right here on the good ole DU.

[jeff47]

231. There's more in plain view than the letter.

"Plain view" includes previous, similar acts. Some of those were done by DUers. More were done by non-DUers.

[boston bean]

232. to bravenak? The plain view is her the similar treatment already meted out

right here on DU. Which forms my opinion.

OK?

I am entitled to my opinion and to state it, it's not some conspiracy theory like others would like to rely upon, and my opinion won't be changing.

[jeff47]

241. To other people, of various races and ideologies. Cavers have been stalking DUers for years.

I am entitled to my opinion and to state it, it's not some conspiracy theory like others would like to rely upon, and my opinion won't be changing.

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, or that your opinion is wrong. What I'm trying to do is discuss that opinion and understand why our opinions differ.

Again, I come at this from a different angle - I played an MMO where someone literally tracked down another player and cut the power lines to their house in order to win a virtual space battle. They attempted to frame someone else. Poorly.

That's the most egregious version of what I've experienced, but there's been many other attempts to discredit/frame one group by a different group. So I start with not trusting the letter writer's word. IMO, It's way too easy to sound like someone else for "sounds like" to be evidence.

So I'm trying to find out what I'm missing, or if this is just something where people are going to have different opinions.

[boston bean]

244. I have considered all options and come to a conclusion.

[jeff47]

254. As have I. And I wanted to know why those differed

to ensure I wasn't missing something in my "considerations".

[boston bean]

260. My considerations don't include conspiracy theories. I dismiss them outright.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

496. I hope to god that you are not in the legal profession.

[OilemFirchen]

327. There's a similar example of a non-DUer sending a DUer harassing snail mail?

Do tell.

[jeff47]

328. Folks from "The Cave" called someone's boss a few years ago

trying to get them fired.

IIRC, Will Pitt dropped his old pseudonym when he was similarly "outed".

It's been going on a long time.

[OilemFirchen]

348. That's a no then? (n/t)

[nadinbrzezinski]

351. How about calling a hospital which prevented somebody from getting medical care

which incidentally hastened his death? That was FR but I find that quite bad.

[OilemFirchen]

354. How about firing a severly ill employee and denying him health insurance?

That was DU and pretty bad as well.

[jeff47]

368. You can search DU2 just as well as I can. (nt)

[OilemFirchen]

370. Actually, no.

You're a star member.

[jeff47]

372. Google doesn't care if you have a star. (nt)

[OilemFirchen]

373. No, but DU does.

You have an Advanced Search option. I don't.

What would I be looking for, exactly?

[HooptieWagon]

380. You can cite such posts that sound like the letter?

Then let's see them.

[bvar22]

266. Really?

Well, we all know that stalkers who send anonymous, disgusting, threatening letters ALWAYS tell the truth.


Lets put THAT "in evidence" too!

[boston bean]

268. I believe the letter would be evidence, no?

That's all we got. But you can add in the multiple times much of the same was said to her directly from DU Bernie supporters with absolutely no repercussion, if you want as evidence the letter writer isn't lying.

Much better than saying she wrote them herself or a Hillary supporter is running a false flag operation or that some caver wrote it, when there isn't not one thing to ever point to that makes that nothing other than a conspiracy theory.

If someone has some evidence of a caver having a dossier on bravenak, let me know so I can review.

They usually make that shit public as evidenced from posts here to there. I don't search for it, but others do who keep closer tabs on those nuts than I would ever think of can check it out and let me know if there is a bravenak dossier.

[grasswire]

361. Bernie supporters warned bravenak directly on DU...

...that if she keeps running her %%% mouth, she will get gang-alerted and banned from DU again?

Please point me to that post or posts. Now.

[CJCRANE]

190. Do you remember "Backwards B-Girl" Ashley Todd?

She had a "B" scratched into her face allegedly by an Obama supporter.

It was only when liberal bloggers (including myself) pointed out that it was reversed that people realized that it was most likely self-inflicted looking in the mirror (which is what it turned out to be).

As, I said, the more information you have, the better your conclusion.

[boston bean]

203. yeah I do, and I don't think Bravenak sent herself the letters.

That type of claim makes me nauseous and it's offensive, if you want to know how I feel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

280. I don't think you understood what you were told

[boston bean]

281. I understood perfectly and you aren't the poster I was responding to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

287. Thst is fine

I read your other responses...and you are taking all at face value.

Too many years of looking at shit I have learned smoke and mirrors are real. For the record, since I expect you to take it the wrong way...she did not mail herself those letters.

Sad that one has to write this, but once again SHE DID NOT DO IT but with all due respect you need to consider the other things that people have spoken off here, because there is a lllooonggg history of those sites mucking with DU'ers...hell some of their regulars are posters here.

This should not be partisan...alas it already is.

Sad though, but I will emphasize this once again. SHE DID NOT DO IT.

And even with all that I expect you to misconstrue it.

[boston bean]

288. You need to read the post I responded to, because your response here is making no sense. nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

251. That's exactly what I think it is.

Until I see some other evidence that changes my mind. From what has been shown so far, I conclude that the poster sent it herself.

It's a simple matter to put a pre-addressed letter inside a larger envelope, and mail it to a friend (say in Florida), and ask them to drop the pre-addressed letter in the mail at their location. It's very easy. It's very cheap. There is nothing about the envelope that validates it at all.

There is nothing about the letter itself that validates it at all either. I think this is a scam to get more attention for herself and to use as "proof" that she has been alert stalked (which I don't believe either, I think she has antagonized a lot of people but that's a different thing, and I have yet to hear how someone can rig the jury selection software at will).

I guess we'll see what develops from here, but so far I don't believe it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

284. She did not do it herself

there is virtually no payout. And this is how you need to think critically of these things

Suffice to say, this is a question the postal inspector will ask...and will ferret out if this should be the case. They are very good about that.

But I do not think it was just a plain out crazee racist Bernie supporter either who posts on DU. It is the looongggg history of this shit at DU with a certain site. Could be a person from here? Yes, we have had a couple cases too. Radiolady is the best known.

I just don't take the letter's text at face value...too many years of being a skeptic.

[Waiting For Everyman]

295. Well, I disagree.

It COULD be someone from that nutty site or it could be someone from DU, but until I see something that shows me the receiver COULD NOT HAVE BEEN the sender, that remains the simplest and likliest explanation.

Yes, there is a big payout to her as the sender. Look at all the threads of support here. And it's to the point that I've been told in two threads, that my lack of support has been "noticed" and that I should be kicked off the site.

Except that I don't intimidate that easy. I do "notice" that they tried however, which tells me a lot about them.

Let me mention one point here. IF (a big if) this turns out to have been sent by somebody else... 1) she is only being threatened with alerts on DU; 2) if we're to believe what's in the letter and the "facts" associated with it, the writer is thousands of miles away from her.

Do we believe that "fact" or not? If we do, it's "meh" at best. If we don't, then there's no reason to disbelieve the location "fact" and yet accept the others. It's all a load of bull.

My second choice though, would be the Cavers. Or someone like that here, either way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

298. What you are presenting here counsel

is the street cred theory my DA loves it as well, especially with gang cases...most of the time the judges, diplomatically mind you, tell them it is bullshit. They still use it...and they use at times even flimsier evidence, like a single two sentence post from Facebook.

So I will kindly tell you, that won't fly. Because the consequences of being "found out" are far worst...we are talking social ostracism here, and some DU'ers are from her town. Have you checked the population size? I will let you go think about it.

[Waiting For Everyman]

299. Check, except that

I believe she considers herself clever enough to get away with it. I don't see that as a deterrent. To some people yes, in this case I doubt it. But time will tell. Everybody has an opinion, and that's my opinion.

[MrScorpio]

302. Wow. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

308. If you want to plant your flag there

By all means. My local prosecutor does regularly. Never mind 9 times out of 10. (That we have seen, the ratio could be even far worst) it blew in his face.

[Waiting For Everyman]

309. Well I don't see what's to "blow".

I don't see why I don't get to conclude what I really think is true. This was brought up by others and put out here in public. That means it's here to be commented on. I don't recognize anybody's prerogative to tell me what to think about it. I think it stinks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

311. I am not going to tell you what to think

Far from it.

I gave you my reasons why you got to the wrong conclusion. At least imho.

Mind you, we treated this as any news story where motivation is a factor. Ok, fire fighter getting a kitty off tree has one too, but there really is not a question as to what it is.

So we played the 20 question game, and plugged in all possibilities. We just could not get any to be gained here by the victim. It is like nada.

Maybe we are too biased (possible) from watching the local DA try to convict people on an enhancement with no primary crime for the last 18 months, and the constant in every one of the cases is street cred and the same exact FB posts.

Interestingly the cases involving white collar and RICO never (almost) go there.

So we will disagree. And if you are correct feel free to distribute the steaming plates of crow. But be ready for it if you are wrong.

[Waiting For Everyman]

312. I didn't think the thought pressure was from you.

Sorry to give that impression.

Nobody knows yet who wrote the letters. There are only opinions. Mine are as valid as anyone else's.

(I know you know this, it's for the benefit of others who may be forgetting it.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

315. Some of us are doing some sleuthing

Looking at different things. Myself pulling on the RW asshole yarns.

Have found some, even one that is a tad more tantalizing than the cannot even find the peg link to a very racist site.

Others are looking at other pieces of yarn. And I hope the PI takes it to that as well. Suffice it to say, I think we will find out enough circumstantial to sort of settle this

If the U.S. Attorney decides to charge...courts are very slow critters. So not before 12 months.

[Waiting For Everyman]

316. It's nice of you to help.

I hope it gets figured out eventually, sooner than later.

[grasswire]

363. There is always something to be gained on the Internet...

....by being thought a victim of bullying by others in a forum. And that would be especially true when there are "sides" involved and the said bullying comes from the "side" opposing the identified victim. Hundreds of other members come a-rallying around. Much satisfaction in that, especially when being martyred into silence.

So, yes. There could be motive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

366. Sorry, as an actual victim of bullying on this site

I will tell you this right now... that ain't gonna fly either.

[grasswire]

375. Yes, we all know what happened to you....

....and it wasn't just the cavers who were cruel.

I'm not saying it's always the case. But the potential is always there to get some satisfaction out of being perceived as bullied.

[nadinbrzezinski]

376. There are many reasons why in this case

I just don't see it.

Strong women do not get satisfaction out of it for starters.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

497. Do you ever get the sensation that nobody is listening to you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

498. Nope

and if nobody is, why do I still get stalkers and responses?



On this matter though, the same shit happened with Andy. And many, many months later many people had to admit they were wrong. Suffice it to say, that was the incident that opened my eyes.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

506. Was Andy the DUer that passed away in hospital?

[nadinbrzezinski]

507. Yes, and it almost tore this place

it led to the first great exodus.

It was just as ugly as now.... so this can get much, much worst.

[rhett o rick]

257. The simplest explanation is that it was someone that wanted to cause disruption.

Their is zero evidence as to who actually wrote the letter.

[rhett o rick]

258. Occam's Razor is often misused. He said that the simplest explanation should be

investigated first but never said that it was the only solution. And as you point out, we have very little information to go on at this point.

I am not disagreeing with you and/or MannY just adding my thoughts.

Using a poorly founded explanation to exploit political differences is irresponsible by either side.

[Oneironaut]

103. Yup 9/10 this was some cave dork.

Probably looks like Dennis Nedry and is wearing a cheeto-stained, greasy shirt.

Plus, whoever did it has to be the world's biggest loser. You send a threatening note to get someone banned from an Internet website? Wtf? Get a life, you sad loser!

[boston bean]

106. You are too nice... "foolish and naive".. I prefer stupid conspiracy theory. nt

[yardwork]

115. The fact that SidDithers' post was hidden proves his point.

There is no reason for SidDithers' post above to have been hidden. In fact, his post contained some useful information about the frequency of attacks on DU by trolls.

But apparently his post was hidden because he pointed out that a person can both support Bernie Sanders and be "unhinged." Why is this offensive?

I have never seen such defensiveness in a group. The fact that a candidate for president might attract - does attract - mentally unstable people should not surprise anyone. This is not a reflection on the candidate or his followers.

Get real, people. Politics attracts a lot of weirdos. It's not all about you. And yes, I'm saying this to the OP as well.

This is not all about you.

[PeaceNikki]

118. Yup. 6-1, no less.

[PeaceNikki]

135. Oh, wow.

:/

[boston bean]

136. And this OP here is a response to that locked thread.

But I assume, it isn't meta, or disruptive meta, when Manny makes an OP complaining about a post on DU. and calls it grotesque.

[MannyGoldstein]

147. Did your post say it's probable that a DU member sent the letters?

A simple "yes" or "no" is fine.

[boston bean]

156. Let's not beat around the bush here, this is exactly what I said:

Lastly, I think some need an education as to what Occams Razor is.. ie, when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better.

So, the simpler explanation here is that some Bernie supporter from DU sent threatening letters to a member via snail mail, as is in the evidence of the letters. The not simpler explanation is illogical conspiracy theory of sending ones self the letter.

[MannyGoldstein]

162. So you used inductive reasoning to make the case

that the letters most likely came from a Sanders supporter on DU.

My post did not suggest that the most likely explanation was that DU member did this.

[boston bean]

169. I used occams razor as I was observing that people were crucifying it's meaning.

And that if they really wanted to depend on occams razor they might want to take the simplest explanation as evidenced in the actual letter, not some conspiracy.

[rhett o rick]

306. You misused Occams razor. The simplest explanation is that the letter

writer wanted to disrupt DU. We have no other evidence. The name written in the letter isn't proof of anything. Anyone can write a similar letter. And Occams Razor says that the simplest explanation should be investigated first. He didn't say that the simplest explanation was the solution.

[yardwork]

172. The letter itself says that, so how is it a violation of TOS to agree?

I'm gonna be blunt here, Manny. You and your buddies are bullying people.

You bullied me the other day, you've been bullying African American posters, and you're bullying Boston Bean. That's all I've noticed but I'll bet there's more.

Your behavior is becoming obvious and it's not reflecting well on the candidate you claim to support.

Now alert on my post. I'll take the hide.

[JTFrog]

206. What's "Grotesque" is the way he is using Bravenak for his own bullshit agenda.

Thank you for speaking up.

[MannyGoldstein]

250. I think it was a forum issue, not a TOS issue

But in any case, you'd have to ask the folks who locked it as to what happened. I was just speculating, probably poorly.

Suppose I post a quote from Donald Trump saying that Latino immigrants are responsible for all of our country's problems. Should that post be locked?

Suppose I post that quote, and say that I agree with it. Should that post be locked (and my ass kicked off of DU)? Yup.

I'm sure that you see the difference, and see how it applies to the OP in question. The poster chose to construct a post that uses ridiculous "logic" to show that it's probable that a Sanders supporter from DU did something pretty nasty.

As to bullying: can you be specific? Feel free to to either post specific links here or send via DU mail. I don't intend to bully anyone, and if I'm somehow doing that I'd like to see what I'm doing so i can fix it. On the other hand, Harry Trumaning folks is fine by me: "I don't give them Hell. I just tell the truth about them and they think it's Hell."

[yardwork]

283. I didn't read BB's OP as saying that.

It's disingenuous to compare the statements of (many) DUers who are saying it's likely that the letter writer is telling the truth about their identity to Donald Trump's bigoted statements. You know that so I won't labor the point.

For the record, I have no opinion about who wrote the letter except that they could use mental health care. The writer could be anybody - I can think of at least 5 possible scenarios. Whoever they are, they're filled with rage. They need help.

Again, the letter reflects nothing about any candidate for the Democratic nominee. Any such implication is ludicrous.

The issue of bullying.... You are a popular member of DU, Manny. People view you as a leader. There's a responsibility that comes with leadership. You can use your influence to encourage a rich and diverse dialogue, or you can use it to silence people.

[yardwork]

160. So what? What is the problem with that?

Are you seriously suggesting that it is now against DU rules to say anything negative about any theoretical "Bernie supporter?"

Do you know how that sounds? It sounds like North Korea.

[MannyGoldstein]

168. No, I did not do that at all.

Possible and probable are two very different words.

[Bobbie Jo]

139. Mob behavior is facinating, no? nt

[yardwork]

142. Wow. The cult of personality here is out of control.

Your thread was alerted on and allowed to stand, but then a host locked it.

That same host went after me in another OP by Manny in which I had the temerity to disagree with the OP.

Come on you guys, this behavior doesn't reflect well in your candidate.

[Bobbie Jo]

157. It doesn't reflect well

on the moderation efforts either.

IMO...

[yardwork]

158. Hosts should be above this pettiness.

I agree. Can we appeal to have Boston Bean's thread unlocked?

[boston bean]

159. I would be grateful if someone did, cause I don't have much luck with it.

[yardwork]

161. What's the procedure?

[boston bean]

163. I think it is to send an pm of appeal to the locking host or any host, I suppose.

[yardwork]

164. Well, I doubt the locking host would listen.

[boston bean]

165. LOL, maybe any host then.

[Agschmid]

223. The OP has to petition to unlock...

They also have to send a rationale on why they feel it should be unlocked, then the locking host posts the petition to unlock and hosts review it.

I was the only leave vote from when it was first alerted for an SOP violation. Consensus was to lock it besides my vote, IMO my vote should have not blocked the lock.

[yardwork]

224. I wrote to a GD host requesting a review.

I think it is inconsistent to lock one thread on this topic as "off topic" while leaving all the other threads on the same topic, including this one, open.

[Agschmid]

226. Consistency is very hard...

And we only vote based on the OP, not what happens after.

That being said I agree that this is disruptive meta, but again I'm in the minority.

[Sissyk]

317. Ags, you sure about that?

You were the leave vote when it was first alerted?

You might want to go review the thread for accuracy?

[Agschmid]

318. I'm sorry let me correct myself.

I was the "Meh" vote.

Which is not usually code for "lock"...

Here was my post, I was the first comment.

[Sissyk]

321. Thank you!

And, just to clarify for all.

What does "Again, WSC." mean?

[Rex]

338. .

http://www.acronymattic.com/WSC.html

[Sissyk]

367. lol!

Bunches there to pick from. I see several I'm partial to.

[Agschmid]

319. You might also note I said in the previous post on this thread...

That I did not try to block consensus.

I'm not the one playing games here.

[Sissyk]

323. I didn't accuse you of playing games, Ags.

I ask you to relook at your post in that thread because you stated up above, that you were the only leave vote.

You were not a leave vote, and I thought you might want to correct. No big deal!

I was the only leave vote from when it was first alerted for an SOP violation. Consensus was to lock it besides my vote, IMO my vote should have not blocked the lock.

[Agschmid]

337. I was NOT a lock vote.

Shall I post the whole damn thread here?

Talk about making it meta.

[Sissyk]

346. You may do as you wish!

I was just pointing out that your original statement was incorrect.

[Agschmid]

347. You faux friendliness is noted.

[Bobbie Jo]

178. Should be

then again, I just took a peek...

She could certainly try, but I'm thinking it would be a waste of time.

[steve2470]

120. some on DU loathe Sid, that's no secret

I'm not surprised his post got hidden. You made good points.

[gollygee]

121. +1000

There was no reason for that to be alerted on or hidden.

[riderinthestorm]

123. I guess I read it as an assumption that the letters really ARE from a Bernie supporter

and that assumption is what got the post hidden.

I'd hide it.

[MannyGoldstein]

125. And calling one or more DUers "foolish and naive"

But there's a small group of people that think that's just an observation, not an insult.

[boston bean]

127. I'm wondering why your thread aint locked up for being meta.

It is an obvious reference to a post of mine that got locked up.

That makes it meta if you ask me. Complaining and moaning about what I posted. Meta, NO? and calling it grotesque... personal attack, maybe, NO?

[MannyGoldstein]

128. I believe the criterion is *disruptive* meta.

Yours is.

Mine ain't.

[boston bean]

129. oh, yeah... LOL so say the 90% bernie supporting hosts.

[Bobbie Jo]

149. LOL!

[riderinthestorm]

130. Sid made the comment as an observation and I'm sure that contributed to the hide

to the hide.

Nobody disputes that every candidate gets their share of crazies. It was Sids assumption that the letter obviously had to be from a Bernie supporter that would have swayed me to hide it.

[boston bean]

131. What is offensive about stating it was a Bernie supporter.

I would really like to know. Why all the sensitivity surrounding this?

Like I said every candidate has their off the wall, kooky, scary, crazy nutso supporters.

[riderinthestorm]

134. Because the letter is a despicable act. Assuming it's a Bernie supporter

that sent it, is smearing Bernie supporters without a shred of evidence.

It's far, far more likely to have been sent by a shit stirrer from the Cave than a DU Bernie supporter imo. That seems obvious to me.

Hence, it's offensive to assume it was a DU Bernie supporter as Sid did.

Obviously six other DUers felt the same

[yardwork]

154. That's not what Sid said? Have you even read the post?

[yardwork]

153. Where did Sid say that?

The word obviously doesn't appear in his post, and in fact he states that it is "likely" that the writer of the letter is a zombie, banned over and over by MIRT.

[Blue_In_AK]

289. But not just any zombie...

A Sanders zombie.

[yardwork]

290. Apparently that's how the troll identifies.

MIRT knows this particular troll, apparently. They identify as a Sanders supporter. Of course the troll doesn't represent Sanders! Bernie isn't sending disruptor trolls to invade DU. It's a troll.

This is ludicrous.

[Blue_In_AK]

294. And I think we agree

that just because this particular troll "identified" himself or herself as a Sanders supporter, it doesn't mean that they're a legitimate Sanders supporter. They could be trolling to make Sanders supporters look bad.

Can we agree on that, at least?

[yardwork]

296. Of course. Trolling is never well-intentioned.

As I said, there are numerous possible scenarios here, but none of them reflect badly on Sanders or his campaign.

Stalkers and trolls are on their own. They don't represent anybody.

[boston bean]

126. Point being, why is that so offensive to some?

Hell there are crazies that support every single candidate.

Hell, this is getting stupid, if you ask me.

[riderinthestorm]

132. Well, I find it offensive and so did 6 other DUers

[boston bean]

133. I guess I won't get the answer as to why it is offensive. ok.

[riderinthestorm]

171. I've already said why, several times. Sids assumption the letters from a Bernie supporter

But claiming the letter writer is not a Sanders supporter, 'cause Sanders' supporters aren't like that, is foolish and naive.

I think that's smearing Bernie supporters unfairly and also unfairly associating them with this despicable letter.

[boston bean]

173. talking about a letter that comes from someone who states they are a bernie supporter

is fact, it's not an insult.

[riderinthestorm]

184. You asked for a a fuller explanation on how I interpreted his post

I responded (and now regret that).

Six other jurors also interpreted it the same way.

I understand you don't agree with my interpretation. I've made my point, we disagree, and that's the way things go in discussions.

Feel free to have the last word.

[yardwork]

148. Ok, that doesn't tell us why you find it offensive.

And right now, I am supremely unimpressed with the jury system, so the fact that 6 people apparently had a knee jerk response doesn't prove anything.

[riderinthestorm]

166. He does say it

But claiming the letter writer is not a Sanders supporter, 'cause Sanders' supporters aren't like that, is foolish and naive. "

That's saying he's assuming the letter is from a Sanders supporter.

That's how I read Sids post.

[yardwork]

177. I don't read it that way at all.

He's saying that it's foolish and naive to assume that every single person who identifies as a Sanders supporter is incapable of stalking.

There are millions of Sanders supporters and probably more than a few are nasty people. Same for the followers of any candidate. That's all Sid said.

[Bobbie Jo]

140. Now why on earth would someone make

that assumption?

GO BERNIE!

[Autumn]

267. Go Hillary!!!!!

See how that works? And no way in hell I am a Hillary supporter. But I can say anything I want.

[Bobbie Jo]

270. And??

Yes, I've seen how a lot of things work around here.

[yardwork]

144. Why? That makes no sense to me.

[riderinthestorm]

145. Obviously 6 other jurors read it the same as I did

It is offensive. I'm not sure what else to say...

[yardwork]

146. It is offensive to observe that out of millions of people who support Bernie

One might have mailed a stalker letter? That's offensive? To whom?

This is a serious question.

[riderinthestorm]

179. Sid assumes it's a DU that sent the letter

His post is pretty clear, he believes it's a DU Bernie supporter. Maybe not a long term member but a member nonetheless.

That's pretty shitty and hide worthy imo.

But claiming the letter writer is not a Sanders supporter, 'cause Sanders' supporters aren't like that, is foolish and naive.

I'm just saying the same thing over and over now. Clearly we read the same thing and interpreted it differently.

I'm done trying to explain how I read it. Feel free to have the last word.

[boston bean]

196. That is what the letter states. That is the only evidence.

I know you have repeated yourself, but I just got to say that people need to deal in facts here.

[questionseverything]

379. there are huge multi million dollar companies designed to hurt liberals

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/02/10/143428/chamberleaks-target-families/

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8354

The plan also involved creating "two fake insider personas", one at VR and another at the unrelated Change To Win organization, which had employed a coalition of union groups to create a non-profit campaign, some months after VR's, called U.S. Chamber Watch. The plan presented by Team Themis, as the three security firms called themselves, would then use one of the "fake personas" as "leverage to discredit the other while confirming the legitimacy of the second" in hopes of publicizing the fraudulent appearance of some sort of "conspiracy" between the various progressive organizations in order to somehow discredit them.

//////////////////////////////

[nadinbrzezinski]

451. That has me thinking

could the low level stuff the cavers et al do really be test runs?

[questionseverything]

453. sure...not saying ever case is an op but to deny they exist is foolish too

if you read that whole article, somewhere it mentions they were working on programs that would enable 1 person to manage 100 personas...that would take some practice

and that was a couple years ago so by now i am sure some have really developed skills

[nadinbrzezinski]

458. The FBI and the DoD were also as well

from what I remember

[zappaman]

186. Anyone who has served on MIRT, knows that Sid is right.

Some people can't handle the truth.

[JTFrog]

214. Exactly. n/t

[Agschmid]

339. Yup.

[davidpdx]

403. I agree, it very well could be a Sanders supporter who has been previously banned

or is not even a DU member (in good standing).

[Agschmid]

215. Yup.

[randys1]

234. I thought sid was one of the accounts of the owners of this forum, how could his post be hidden?

[Agschmid]

340. Lol. Turns out he isn't actually Skinner.

[leftofcool]

275. Sure does. Proves a lot of things.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

499. Long live the conspiracy!

Please stop.

[Enthusiast]

110. I agree, Manny. I believe it was someone that feels they benefit from dividing us.

I will be interested to hear the identity if they determine who it is.

[davidpdx]

407. Yep, and I'm seriously wondering if the person succeeded in doing that

One would like to think not.

[Rex]

113. I am not assuming it came from DU.

I bet good money it came from the Cave Losers. Bravenak supports BS, so I believe it came from a troll site. Maybe DI. Whoever did it is a craven coward.

[treestar]

114. This should not be your biggest concern

and it could have been anyone.

[riderinthestorm]

116. Agreed nt

[yardwork]

119. Since SidDithers's post was hidden, I'm going to repeat the message here.

In my own words. This will probably get hidden too. I don't care.

Candidates for office attract all kinds of people. It is indisputable fact that at least some Bernie Sanders "supporters" - whatever that means - are mentally unstable. This is true of every political candidate. It just is. It is in no way a reflection on the candidate or their campaign unless said candidate is deliberately stirring up crazy behavior. Many Republucan candidates do this. Bernie Sanders does not. Nonetheless, it is certain that at least some of his followers are nuts. Saying this is not an attack on Sanders or his campaign.

[PeaceNikki]

138. Absolutely. I recently read the comments on a local news page about BLM

That lead me to the page of a horribly racist asshole with the rebel flag as his profile pic. He posted stuff that would make the KKK beam with white pride... and mixed along with it was his strong support for Sanders.

Sigh.

[yardwork]

216. There you go. Crazies come in all kinds of combinations.

I don't understand the defensiveness.

[joshcryer]

409. I don't consider those "supporters" "supporters."

They are anti-Clinton, anti-Obama, anti-DNC, anti-Democrats. They have used Sanders as their wedge, their purity test, their scapegoat (they don't work for him, they don't think he has a chance, they don't care about him). They are not friends of mine. They are not friends of Sanders. They are a slight against Sanders. They disgust me.

[zappaman]

426. Spot on.

Couldn't have said it better.

[JI7]

501. exactly, they were posting the same disgusting shit about race and other issues

before Sanders was running. they are angry that Sanders is even addressing these issues .

[steve2470]

520. you nailed it

[LanternWaste]

124. Continue maintaining the pretense that only one reason exists.

"o get exactly the response they got. Why else send it? Mission accomplished."

Continue maintaining the pretense that only one reason exists-- it's a trendy meme. One might imagine that should you rule out other possibilities with actual evidence rather than mere supposition on your part, and you may receive credibility. Yet simply saying "it must be A" (and yet again, providing no evidence to support that premise) illustrates your allegation as little better than editorial. Grotesque, even.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[Gormy Cuss]

141. There are several equally plausible hypotheses here

and Occam's razor would lead to a Bernie supporting DUer. Other equally plausible explanations are a non-Bernie supporting DUer , a former DUer, posters on Discussionist who are crowing about the letter or someone from one of the sites obsessed with DU.

[yardwork]

150. Now you're going to get it. Probably get your post hidden.

Apparently it is now against DU terms of service to even suggest that any "Bernie supporter" - whatever that means - might also be a stalker.

I've never seen such a cult of personality. Good Lord.

[Gormy Cuss]

152. I know. The Sanders supporters I know IRL aren't like that.

Hell, many of the Sanders supporters here aren't into the cult of personality either.

[yardwork]

155. Same here. This is nothing about Sanders.

This is about some DUers who are a little too self referential.

[Maedhros]

353. Well, the issue isn't just about the letter itself, it's also about the politicization of it.

If the existence of the letter is being used to ascribe motivations and behaviors to "Bernie supporters" in general, then it's fair to counter that assertion in a post.

Whatever the nature of the sender may be - raging Bernie supporter, agent provocateur for the Hillary campaign, Freeper, practical joker - it's clear that he or she is simply an asshole. It's better for the forum to ignore this person than to give them the attention they want. (Bravenak, however, shouldn't ignore this incident and should report it to authorities).

[nadinbrzezinski]

445. I am not a supporter of Sanders

I just remember the long history of those places following, obsessed with DU, some of them even were mods...I would not be shocked if a few serve as hosts...yes that has happened..

So forgive me for expecting more mucking with individuals from this site originating at those sites...and this is following the same finger pointing camps, exodus to come, of the Andy saga. Precious few of us remain though.

As they say, history is prologue. And because of that history I take that letter at face value, not.

[Zorra]

174. I'm 100% sure it was a Clinton supporter using it to smear Bernie supporters.

It completely fits the MO of the sustained spreading false memes following "Not Good Enough, Bernie".

It could even be the same Hillary supporter who has been threatening and stalking me with PMs for two months, who the admins refuse to do anything about.

[Gormy Cuss]

180. The only way you could be 100% sure is if you know who sent them

so do tell. Who sent them?

[Zorra]

187. The sustained pattern has made this predictable, and not surprising,

given Clinton's rapidly dropping poll numbers.

[lovemydog]

459. You're 100% sure?

Wow.

[zappaman]

465. Says the poster who coined the term "race nagging"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251467790#post5

Why am I not surprised with your utterly ridiculous assertion?



Your concern is duly noted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

466. You must know who sent it to be that 100 percent sure

I have my suspicions.. and even the evidence I have is not enough for me to 100 percent hang my hat on who I think is actually behind it... I just will lay good odds that I am correct based on a LLLLOOOONGGG history here. At least I am basing mine on a LLLONNNGG history that usually has ex members of this forum and other lovely people involved. We usually call them agent provocateurs.

I will be brutal now. If I did get such a letter, and I did not know what I know about those people, or I was just a regular poster without all that knowledge of that history... I would take that letter at face value. I know better and shame on you...for even suggesting that it was either self sent or it was a HRC supporter. This is the kind of shit that happened after Andy died.. and it was just as unhelpful back then... and it was quite wrong when all was said and done.

So mull on that, and this goes for all those going but it had to be a Bernie supporter as well.

[Zorra]

513. Oh, please...if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and has webbed feet,

it's not a Bernie supporter.

[steve2470]

468. I forgot you're the one who said "race nagging"

If I say what I think, I'll surely get a hide.

[Zorra]

511. You didn't forget, and it's really not my problem when som people here have difficulty

understanding the meaning of language and vocabulary. It happens every day.


Now, off to ignore with you.

[Agschmid]

527. Not worth your time...

[steve2470]

528. I agree nt

[jeff47]

185. You're leaving out an important bit of history.

Folks from the Cave have harrassed other DUers in real life. They also have "files" on prominent DUers where they attempt to gather enough information to track down those DUers.

[Gormy Cuss]

189. That would be one of the sites obsessed with DU.

But in terms of history, other DUers have been harassed/stalked IRL by DUers. The late RadioLady stalked at least one DUer and I know that she attempted to stalk even more. Years ago there was a stalking after a group meet-up. Therefore, that a current or former DUer is responsible for the letters is not only plausible but slightly more plausible than the caver theory unless someone can cite a case when their dossier-building activities were used to contact a DUer IRL.

[jeff47]

198. The cavers have contacted DUers IRL.

A few over the years have gotten various forms of harassment. IIRC they tried to get one DUer fired from their job several years ago, for example.

Not saying it can't possibly be a DUer, I'm saying we already have stalkers coordinating elsewhere that should not be casually dismissed.

[Gormy Cuss]

201. So that makes them as source an equally plausible theory

and honestly, I don't dismiss any of the possibilities. I'm just seeing multiple DUers dismissing the most obvious explanation a little too readily.

[boston bean]

204. The most obvious explanation is what is in evidence. The letter states they are a member of DU.

States they are part of a group on DU who will alert stalk.

States they are a Bernie supporter.

The most plausible theory is they are a Bernie supporter and member of DU.

The language of the letter is much to close to what I have seen posted here from DU Bernie supporters to Bravenak in the BLM threads. It was almost verbatim.

[Gormy Cuss]

210. Which is why the insistence of some that it couldn't be from a DU Sanders supporter is silly.

I sincerely hope that the source was external to any active DUers but I'm a bit stunned at the resistance to theories that it came from a current DUer who is also a Bernie supporter.

[boston bean]

211. Many of them do believe a Bernie supporting Duer did it. They think Bravenak sent herself the

letters. She is a DU member and she supports Bernie.

Just look for that accusation right here in this thread.

It's mind boggling..

[nadinbrzezinski]

485. Many comes down to 2... yeah technically that is many

but not quite accurate either. This is the same kind of shit that tore this place apart after Andy died.

So I would tone this down as well

2 people is not a good thing for broad brushes either. And many of us have called them on it as well. They are quite frankly, out of line.

You taking this letter at face value... I understand it, to a point it is the same motivation they have... and it is your own biases, but partly you cannot, or do not want to understand the long history of this crap happening to members of this forum from those sites. If I were unaware of that history... I too would take the letter at face value.

Being aware of that history, and it is LLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGG... there is likely far more than meets the eye.

For the record it could be a DU'er who is also a member at any of these sites, who is laughing his ass off (statistically males tend to do this shit more often then females). I am sure you will not believe me when I tell you this, but one of our moderators was an active member at FR at the same time, and we have more than a few who have said at different places they were or are currently hosts.

Hell one did that at Facebook, at the protected group... quite openly. He also admitted to not just being a Caver, and that we were all DUMMies but a host and active at DI.

Mull on that. Because like when Andy died, this is quite unhelpful and is quite brutally honest playing into hands who dwell in the shadows.

And this being politicized, by design. It should not be, but hey... everybody is running around with their own agendas. I just hate to see history repeat itself, and it is.

So to our friend... well done... well done. IT WORKED... AGIAIN.

Oh and you asked about cavers having a dox on brave... yup they do, and you, and many others here Don't ask me to prove it to make you happy, becuase I do not intend to do my inspection of dark places on the web to include actually joining such swamps, but let me see if I can find them just by doing a fucking google search.

You want some horrific reading, here you go

http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=103694.0

And some on you, which is impressive, they are more fixed on you by the way.

http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=101623.0

http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=103472.0

There are more, just google yourself and conservative cave. And do remember, do not feed the trolls. They love to be fed. And i mean this, as nasty as some people are here to me, these trolls make those here look like well, well behaved saints. Nor are cavers precisely harmless.

[jeff47]

212. Because people don't lie.

And pointing back at DU does not serve the purpose of people who have done similar acts in the past.

What's the benefit of a DUer saying they are a DUer and alert stalk? What do they get out of including that information? Drive Bravenak off DU? Yeah, that's not gonna happen.

But saying that does fit nicely with the groups who seek to disrupt DU.

Again, this does not mean it can not be a DUer. In any sufficiently large group of people, someone is an asshole. But we can't just toss aside that non-DUers have done this before.

[boston bean]

225. the letter writer claims he is, and I believe what he says, because as I have already stated to you

that virtually many of the same things have already been said to her by posters on DU that were said in that letter.

[Blue_In_AK]

293. Why would you believe a cowardly letter writer

who stoops to this kind of tactic to frighten Brave and sow discord in the group? You think such a person isn't capable of lying?

I don't know where the letters came from, obviously, but it seems "naive" to take them at face value and completely discount other possibilities of their origin. They may or may not be from a DU Sanders supporter. They could have been from a devious Clinton supporter trying to cast Sanders supporters in a bad light. They could have been from a stalker of DU from a right-wing site. There is absolutely no reason to take this letter at face value to the exclusion of other possibilities.

We'll probably never know.

[Chemisse]

360. I'm sure this letter writer would never lie!

And he or she would never dream of copying comments seen right on DU! Why, that would be just plain wrong!

People believe what they want to believe, what fits into their own narrative. People who think Bernie supporters are demonic think that the author is one of them; others who think the Hillary supporters are simply evil will think that's who wrote it. I personally think it is someone who likes to troll in a big way, and is now sitting back and enjoying the show. And maybe I think that because I am very unhappy with the chasm here over the primary race, so it fits MY narrative.

And that's why we wait for actual evidence before we pass judgement on any one or any group.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

502. IMHO, I believe that your line of reasoning is two-dimensional and that you are out of your depth.

You believe an anonymous letter writer?

What if s/he they had signed it Frank Zappa?

[MannyGoldstein]

504. Frank Zappa is not above the law, as you imply

His remains would be brought to justice if he'd slipped up and signed the thing.

Regards,

TWM

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

508. I firmly do not believe that Frank Zappa has the ability to compose anything, let alone this letter

One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people
will agree with you only if they already agree with you.
You do not change people's minds.

Frank Zappa

[MannyGoldstein]

537. Fact: there is no proof that time must travel forward

Fact: if Zappa is decomposing as time travels forward, he is composing as time travels backwards.

The letter's author can be nobody other than Zappa.

Q.E.D.

It's VERY telling that you think Zappa's above the law. And after what he had Nanook do to that poor fur trapper, justice must be served. That circular motion... jeez.

[riderinthestorm]

200. Andy Stephens comes to mind immediately.

The Cave even went so far as to contact the hospital treating him for his pancreatic cancer - delaying his treatment.

What they did to him went far, far beyond simple harassment.

I believe nadinbrezinski has experienced something similar but I won't speak for,her experience. Andy's played out here though in a very public way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

446. One caver followed like a puppy to East County Magazine

comments section. He got banned. He followed to FB. He got his nose spanked, and I am not sure what action FB took...but they acted. And he is caught in the IP tight net at reporting San Diego.

He had me watching my back for a few months. Though we do keep heads on swivel anyway when covering news.

I would never ever claim it was as bad as either brave or Andy. But it was not fun.

Oh and slight correction, what happened to Andy, that was a FR production. The cave was formed soon after

[HooptieWagon]

382. How does Occams Razor lead to a Bernie supporter?

It appears that's wishful thinking on your part more than actual deductive logic.

[Gormy Cuss]

389. Because the letter declares the writer as a Sanders supporter.

Ignoring that is foolish.

[HooptieWagon]

393. And you believe the letter writer?

Uh, okay.

[tularetom]

151. I don't want to think it was a Sanders supporter

but I suppose it could be. Occams razor seems to have lost a bit of its edge here in the digital age so I'm no longer predisposed to attribute everything to the simplest possible explanation. Rather, the temptation to look for the most tinfoily conspiracy theory is sometimes overwhelming.

So I'm not rushing to any conclusions until I see a bit more evidence. Everything will be revealed in the fullness of time.

But I do feel safe in opining that "Mr Citizen" is lower than whale shit on the bottom of the Marianas trench.

[LannyDeVaney]

167. Initially, I thought no way was it a Sanders supporter...

then I saw how many people (and seriously, even ONE person downplaying the incident is too many) were downplaying the incident. "Not a threat", etc...

And all with big Bernie avatars. So, now I've reconsidered. I say 50/50 it was a "real" Bernie supporter.

[gollygee]

170. I think it was a Sanders supporter

Maybe someone who went on vacation in Florida to avoid it being obvious who did it. (I can only speak for Michigan, where I live, but the Tampa Bay area is incredibly popular as a vacation spot and a lot of people's parents - including mine - have relocated to there.) And someone who was unsure of Bravenak's zip code. I think one letter had the address from zip code A and the return address from zip code B, and the other letter had the address from zip code B and the return address from zip code A.

But there are several Sanders supporters who have gotten into it frequently with Bravenak, and who also complain about "race baiting." It sounds like stuff I've read here at DU.

[boston bean]

176. an obvious conclusion if you ask me. And I applaud you for daring to state

it in this atmosphere of alerts and hosts locks.

[yardwork]

182. The bullying and alert stalking in the AA forum leads me to agree.

I don't know anything about this letter, but I definitely see evidence of alert stalking in the AA forum. I'm also seeing bullying of African American posters here in response to perfectly reasonable threads attempting to discuss racism. There is a small but noisy group of DUers who are so passionate about their candidate they have lost all perspective.

[bettyellen]

235. It seems quite a few Sanders supporters agree with you and are doing damage control- This OP...

.....the way they mock the incident or claim it is a scam? Sure signs they are concerned about who it might be more than the fact that it was done.
It is no reflection on Bernie, but there are trolls here- using his candidacy to attack every Dem in history. Not shocked someone would stoop to this harassment.

[leftofcool]

300. Yea, like the person who used the term "race nagger"

[JoePhilly]

175. Manny, which of your personas wrote this OP?

I ask that question not because I want an answer, but to make a point.

If you put enough chum in the water, (or kick over enough trash cans) you should not be surprised when the trolls show up and take advantage of it and use it for cover as they "mess with DUers".

Go back to some of your own threads, perticularly some of the 3rd Way Manny threads, and look around for some of the trolls who have been kicked from DU and take a look at the manner in which they participated in those threads.

You and some others might want to consider the extent to which you have helped create an environment in which trolls can easily mask their intentions, right inside your own OPs.

Or not.

[GitRDun]

238. Best comment in this thread.

We're living with the culture they've created...doesn't feel so good.

[JTFrog]

248. *mic drop*

[msanthrope]

399. And there you have it. nt

[raven mad]

188. Thank you.

bravenak is an incredibly good person. And a fellow Alaskan. And intelligent, insightful, loving, and not deserving of this kind of crap.

[CJCRANE]

191. Who remembers "Backwards B-Girl" Ashley Todd?

An example where the first and simplest conclusion is not always the correct one.

[PeaceNikki]

197. The implication that bravenak faked this letter is ridiculous and offensive.

[boston bean]

199. Somehow that flies right over peoples head when making these comparisons and claims.

it is obvious she did not send herself emails from Florida. one with a wrong address that got held up by USPS until they could figure it ous, so she then sent another to make sure it got there. Hell, I would hope she knows her own address.

[Zorra]

213. Posting a police report would silence all doubt once and for all.

With critical information blacked out, of course.

Everyone knows that any anonymous person can say anything, true or false, at any time, on the internet.

Few posters here know each other personally IRL. Therefore, any tangible foundation for trust in many circumstances is weak, at best.

Any item that can be viewed as a personal threat, should be sent to the admins, and police, immediately, and not publicly published.

This is especially true if the item can also be clearly viewed as a political propaganda weapon. Publishing an item that contains a personal threat, but which also can be viewed as a political propaganda weapon, immediately and naturally places the credibility of the item in doubt.

This is not rocket science.

[NorthCarolina]

352. ^^^This^^^ is a very good recommendation. eom

[FlatBaroque]

377. RECommended nt

[SMC22307]

386. Excellent idea -- posting the police report!

Yes, with critical info blacked out.

[lovemydog]

462. You said upthread that you're '100% sure'

it came from a Hillary Clinton supporter.

Now you want to throw the suspicion on to bravenak.

Why?

She doesn't owe you or anyone else a thing.

Are you the poster who called bravenak or some others sticking up for the black lives matter movement 'race naggers' or something of that sort?

[nadinbrzezinski]

464. Ugly counselor

You are going though the street cred theory here, which stinks and is bullshit when the DA tries it at court as well.

And you are not helping by even suggesting it by the way.

[Zorra]

500. WTF are you even talking about? A police report is not street cred.

A police report is a legal document generated when a crime is reported and the cops buy it and decide it's worth consideration.

The narrative on the police report would quell all doubt.

It's no big deal to black out personal info and post it here. The truth is a very simple thing. I'm helping by suggesting a simple fact and evidence based way to end a controversy.

Are you implying that you have knowledge of some bizarre mysterious legal proceeding concerning Postal Service Inspector or FBI investigation begun because of an idiotic threat against someone, a threat consisting of the recipient of the threat getting banned from a political internet site?

What's your dog in this hunt? Most sincere journalists/reporters would want to be certain of the facts and truth. What's the real objection here?

[nadinbrzezinski]

503. Suggesting that she did it is... one might even use two words here: IMPLICIT BIAS

the real objection is that there is a llllooooonnnnnnggggg history of people mucking with this place. Hell, I even got some of it... granted never as bad, from those folks.

And the real objection is that you made your mind and are convinced it had to be a HRC person or herself. Has it ever occurred to you to ask why would a SANDERS supporter would do that? She, until at least this incident. was a Sanders supporter. I will not blame her in the least if she is no longer one.

And I am sure that if a report was filed, it is so low in the priority chain it is not even funny and likely all that will happen is a file was opened, in the off chance something actually happened.

You, like the other side, is taking the letter at face value, and cannot think outside the box. You are convinced.

And given who is actually benefiting from all this... well, in the 20 question game tells me that your theory is extremely low in the priority chain.

And yes IT COULD VERY WELL BE A DU'ER who also posts at these wonderful cesspools.

So once you can answer to me why she would do that to herself, while she supported Sanders... I will wait for that.

I will add this, same shit happened with Andy and it took MONTHS to settle, and she is not currently allowed to post. This was not posted by her either. And to be honest, I will not be too shocked if she decides to never come back to DU either.

[Zorra]

510. You're skirting the issue in circles. All I suggested was that the simple posting of a police report

would solve the problem.

It's no big deal.

Some people are skeptical. The proof is out there. All it would take to fix the situation is to post the truth, and we could all move on.

And the Cave people would be choking on DUer shit.

What's not to like with this simple solution?

[nadinbrzezinski]

522. Have you ever filed a police report? I have

Last edited Sun Sep 13, 2015, 04:16 PM - Edit history (5)

and I was wracking my head as to why this is a nonsensical demand last night. You know what I got from my local police? A case number. A string of letters and numbers... that's it. Oh and a business card.

I am sure this will not be enough for you to be convinced anyway, since anybody could make that up, right.

Granted, ours was so low priority that it went immediately into the back of the drawer to be ignored for ever. So I asked somebody who filed for something a tad more serious... would assault and battery quality for you? And this was recent too, they also got a case number and the business card, Of course I have a bunch of them in my rolodex here for several departments, both fire and police by the way. They are not that bloody hard to get. Officers usually give them away at scenes, or when they interview people.

So if her PD has the same policies, you will not get a police report. Of course that would never be enough for you.

You are immediately jumping to conclusions that fit your narrative. Myself, I have my suspicions, and I would never, ever say 100 percent So unless you actually know, you don't.

By the way here is their policy for reports release

http://www.muni.org/Departments/police/forms/Documents/CIT_REC_REQ_FORM.pdf

Notice these things... which might mean right at the moment they will NOT release it.

-Victim Rights Clause (AS12.60.100-150)
- Public Records Exceptions (AS40.25.120)
-An arrest or active criminal prosecution
-Statute of limitations/Active investigation

The fact that you jump to what you jump and push that as if true and the only possible true is what is disgusting and you are NOT HELPING, your cause, or her.

And if she did it, tell me again, what is the payout in the con?

On edit, due to a suspected child abduction nearby... amber alert is active and everything, I just got a good example of that number sequence for a police case number. Here you go.

Incident #15090022579 September 12, 2015

They usually do not even add the date, but this is on the PDF sent to well, anybody who has an active sub to Nixle and this is a critical event. So they sent one... on the bright side I did not have to work (and go read the ENTAC file), to ferret that out. I hate those ENTAC files... all caps, and in military style. SAW SHIP, SUNK SAME, writing style.

Yes, yes, yes, we already ran the amber alert. It was the first thing I did this morning, before my morning coffee actually. It is al over local media.

Oh and these days it is down to just numbers. Our case was back in the cambrian, and we filed for a minor robbery mostly for insurance purposes. We all understood it would never, like ever, be really solved. None expected it.

And since I mentioned the Amber alert, update, tragically the kid drowned according to authorities.

[Zorra]

535. lol. I've seen many police reports. Sorry nadin, but victims of crimes/plaintiffs get free copies of

police reports. The form you posted is not for victims/plaintiffs, or for those accused of crimes. They get their police report for free, in person. The form you posted is for third parties seeking copies of of police records.

It's kind of difficult to believe that any police agency would bother even taking a complaint over something like an anonymous mailing that threatens to have someone banned from an internet site.

How to cope with receiving anonymous letters:

Ignore the letter. The best way to deal with an anonymous letter is to ignore it. Many people do not believe that criticism passed through an anonymous platform is worth any attention.[1] Instead of giving the details any thought, simply push it out of your mind.

Getting upset by the contents of an anonymous letter gives the author power. If you have received anonymous hate, don't post about it on social media and try to call them out. Don't address the office, or send e-mails to people you know accusing them of sending you anonymous letters. This validates the anonymous sender because they realize they got to you. It may also cause the author to send you more messages if they know they have gotten to you.[2]

Reach out to those in authority. If you receive anonymous letters that are a cause of concern, or you repeatedly receive anonymous hate, you may want to ask for help from an authority figure. Contact your local police department if you feel threatened by the letters.[10]

If you involve the police, you will need to keep the letters as evidence. Some states may have laws against anonymous threatening that could help you.

http://www.wikihow.com/Cope-with--Receiving-Anonymous-Letters

Fear and Intent

Criminal threats are made with the intention to place someone in fear of injury or death. However, it isn't necessary for a victim to actually experience fear or terror. Rather, it's the intention of the person making the threat that matters. The intent of a person who makes threats is usually determined by the circumstances surrounding the case.

Specificity and Reasonableness

You cannot commit a criminal threat if the threat is vague or unreasonable. The threat must be capable of making the people who hear it feel as if they might be hurt, and conclude that the threat is credible, real, and imminent. If, for example, you threaten to blow up the world unless your bartender doesn't bring your drink to you in time, no reasonable person hearing it would believe the threat was real. On the other hand, if you walk into a store with a gun and threaten to shoot the clerk unless she gives you a refund, such a threat is credible and specific.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Criminal-Threats.htm

How to Report a Threat to the Police

Instructions

Go to your local police department and obtain a police report form from the desk sergeant on duty. This form allows you to provide complete information regarding yourself, the accused and the threat that occurred.

Enter the required information on the police report form. It is helpful if you know the exact date of the threat as well as the full name, address and contact information of the accused.

Give the form to the desk sergeant and wait while he gives your report a case number. Keep the case number for your records.

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/how_8441663_report-threat-police.html

Victims Obtaining Reports

Victims of crimes have the rights to police reports concerning their incidents, and they can usually obtain them directly from the department with which the police reports were filed. Usually, the victims are presented with copies of police reports immediately after they file them. However, if they need additional copies or end up losing their original copies, they can usually obtain additional ones by simply contacting the agencies that first issued the reports to them.

http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-do-i-get-a-copy-of-a-police-report/

[nadinbrzezinski]

536. Actually no, not really

but keep gnawing at that bone. It makes you look even more ugly as you keep to dig your feet stubbornly.

And of course officers could not have asked her NOT post it right.

And once again, why WOULD A BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER DO THIS CON?

With that, enjoy your bone. It really make you look well, it would get hidden.

I will add one last thing, people are usually advised NOT TO SHARE a word about an ongoing investigation\legal case. And you bloody know this.

[Waiting For Everyman]

512. Completely agree, an excellent idea.

I'll be shocked if it happens though. Because I think it's very unlikely that a police report was or is going to be filed.

Shaking my head at how gullible people are.


p.s. Back in the early 70s, driving through the desert one full-moon night, I had my car completely surrounded by a herd of jackalopes (not quite, something very similar, they looked like very large jackrabbits, but no antlers) as far as the eye could see, which was pretty far, hauling ass at a very impressive speed. That is the freakiest thing I EVER saw in my life, bar none. What I kept wondering was, where they came from and where they disappeared to, because there was NOTHING out there. Some sort of cave I guess. But odd, very odd.

[Agschmid]

529. What a crock of shit.

[merrily]

205. Occam's razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor and in Latin lex parsimoniae, which means 'law of parsimony') is a problem-solving principle devised by William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian. The principle states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove to provide better predictions, but—in the absence of differences in predictive ability—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

he application of the principle can be used to shift the burden of proof in a discussion. However, Alan Baker, who suggests this in the online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, is careful to point out that his suggestion should not be taken generally, but only as it applies in a particular context, that is: philosophers who argue in opposition to metaphysical theories that involve an allegedly "superfluous ontological apparatus."[a]

Baker then notices that principles, including Occam's razor, are often expressed in a way that is unclear regarding which facet of "simplicity"—parsimony or elegance—the principle refers to, and that in a hypothetical formulation the facets of simplicity may work in different directions: a simpler description may refer to a more complex hypothesis, and a more complex description may refer to a simpler hypothesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam will never tell us whether it is a Bernie supporter or someone posing as one. I don't know who puts a return address on a threatening letter either.

As you note, the only important thing is that Bravenak and her family be safe.

[Romulox]

207. There is no way to confirm who sent the letter, so our responses are based on our preconceptions. nt

[Maedhros]

240. Indeed. [n/t]

[navarth]

349. [phone]

The obvious wish to use this incident for personal political purposes cannot be overlooked.

NOBODY here knows who sent that letter.

It could be somebody who supports Bernie but is unhinged. I think that's unlikely, but we'll factor in the fact that I'm a big fan of Bernie'l.

It could be a supporter of Sec. Clinton who is unhinged. I see them EVERYWHERE but again we'll factor in my bias.

It could be bravenak herself. I've seen a gazillion hot headed posts from her. Still unlikely though.

It could be one of these RW clowns mentioned.

NOBODY here knows. But plenty are trying to make hay with it. THAT is undisputable.

[KittyWampus]

209. Please, in the African American Group several Bernie Sanders supporters

showed up to leave a trail of slime in threads about Bravenak they had no business being in.

They also apparently alerted on several African American DU'ers talking about this incident in the AA Forum to force them into timeouts.

THEN there is the incident of Bravenak getting multiple alerts/time-out because of her posts trying to reach Bernie Sanders supporters. And she was doing it AS an ex-Bernie supporter.

The ugliness of many Bernie supporters after Netroots stands in the DU archives for all to see.

So PLEASE spare us all your theories.

Yeah, it could be an interloper.

But it could just as easily been a real Bernie Supporters based on some of the nasty behavior exhibited on DU.

AND the writing of that letter is too good to be a stupid troll.

P.S. I alerted this thread as Meta. No reason why your Meta threads should be allowed to stand when other DU'ers have theirs locked.

HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF A SIMILAR META THREAD THAT GOT LOCKED
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027158782

[Bobbie Jo]

219. Exactly right

All of it.

[seaglass]

236. It's almost as if a Bernie supporter never used the term "race nagging"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=468498

[boston bean]

239. or told black du members they were race baiting..

read through this post to see how many times it was said. I was completely embarrassed. Alerted on one of them and got a 6-1 leave.

[riversedge]

455. It is sad that DU allows such crap.

[nadinbrzezinski]

460. This place allows blatant racism

and blatant antisemitism... close cousins actually.

It also allows the baiting of LGBT folks, and of course bullying and cyber harassment. I am just aware of it. and at this point, pretty much have stopped posting a lot of subject matter, mostly I do not want sweaty palms... or to have to defend myself from that crap.

But the Iran deal, plenty of double loyalty posts were allowed... even applauded.

BLM, people were accused of race baiting.

I could go on.

[Bobbie Jo]

470. "community standards" nt

[Android3.14]

357. "P.S. I alerted this thread as Meta"

Unfortunate.

The results from the jury speak volumes on your reasoning.

[KittyWampus]

359. Objecting to the Meta nature and its violation of Terms of Service

it goes to the Forum Hosts who would decide to lock the entire thread and not a Jury.

There are two kinds of alerts.

Apparently the Forum Hosts decided this isn't Meta.

[zappaman]

509. Having served as a host, I can tell you that some DUers will never get a thread lock.

In fact, there are some hosts who never participate unless one of the untouchables has a thread alerted on.
Then they are quick to show up and say "strong leave".
Every.
Single.
Time.

[Bobbie Jo]

526. Yep

I was there and saw it first hand myself.

[Agschmid]

530. Yup.

I just quit because it has been happening over and over lately.

Total bull if you ask me.

[Le Taz Hot]

233. Jury results:

On Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:37 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Use your head. Please.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027159165

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

It's highly offensive that this DUer of all Duers is using Bravenak as some politcal football here. Grotesque is right.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:47 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Absolutely no idea why this was alerted on. Leave it.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't get the alert. Manny is on to something. Frankly, it smells like a Parlock stunt to me. Who knows. Voting to leave.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alert Stalking!!! Is that what this alerter has been yelling for awhile now? This is one of the most ridic alerts I've seen. Classis case of alerting on a member because of who it is. Admin, please check out this alerter.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is just discussion. It's OK.

[840high]

255. I agree with juror #4

[SMC22307]

450. "Parlock stunt." Interesting. (n/t)

[randys1]

237. And the lies and attacks of Hillary by MSM and GOP and DU continue and there is no

question who is behind it all.

Too bad.

If you are a sincere liberal, BLM supporter and Bernie supporter, for instance (I dont know how you can call yourself a liberal and not support the ideas of both Bernie and BLM), then you will join with me and stop ALL attacks of Hillary and Bernie.

Support ONE candidate in a positive manner until the convention, then move on to the nominee.

If the GOP takes the WH, the death and destruction and chaos that will ensue will make you all wish you had stopped this crap, so how about it, stop the attacks, NOW.

Thanks

[yardwork]

243. Bravo!

[LexVegas]

242. I think it was a Sander's supporter from this site. Not 100% sure, of course. nt

[steve2470]

252. let's look at all the THEORETICAL possibilities

1- Bravenak did it. Sorry, I cannot fathom that she would do this. Nope, no way! I had to get this LUDICROUS theoretical possibility out of the way upfront.

2- RWer from another site: yes, possible.

3- RWer who is a mole/troll here: yes, possible.

4- Sanders supporter who happens to be, um, unhinged a bit: possible

5- HRC/OM/etc supporter who happens to be, um, unhinged a bit: possible.


I don't know who did it, and at this point Bravenak doesn't know, either. Maybe one day she will know, and maybe one day we will all know. The MOST important thing is for the culprit to be brought to justice and that Bravenak is safe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

292. Here are the questions we played

and plug answers for all your hypotheticals, and yes include in it both Bernie and Hillary supporters

What? We know

Why
When
Who

Here is the critical one... Payout. What is the payout? What is to be gained? Doing that without a political pair of glasses will offer clarity.

[Maedhros]

355. The payout is that we are all arguing with one another instead of paying attention to other,

more important, things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

356. Take it a tad further

divides, creates enemies and weakens the democratic party which is the natural enemy of these folks.

All our answers regarding bernie and HRC and boy scouts. brought also the HRC "win" in the short run... but long term could split alliances and end them.

[Waiting For Everyman]

259. Color me skeptical.

Last edited Fri Sep 11, 2015, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)

I can normally spot a manipulation a mile away, and my radar is going off all over this one. It's just a little too convenient and neat, and too easy to pull off.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027159165#post251

[840high]

279. Yes it is.

[Android3.14]

261. Exactly.

Oh, but even squeak about the simpler explanation...

I had some yahoos attacking me for using the word "alleged" in a post.

I suspect that if all the data were available, that situation with the snail mail letter would appear very different than the way people have taken it without any thought.

[AtomicKitten]

265. This could be anything including Kafkatrapping.

This reeks of trolling. By whom is a really good question.

[L0oniX]

274. I had a DU member actually call my employer and threaten to sue.

I pissed off some idiot nurse when I said that up to 20% of nurses are addicted to a drug. I had a website listed in my profile which was a stupid thing to do. Skinner banned her right away. My employer thought it was funny and was laughing about it.

[Bobbie Jo]

276. Seamstress stalker?

Now that *is* strange.

[GoneFishin]

297. But Manny, who would you never, never, expect to rob a bank wearing a Nixon mask? Nixon, of course.

It's diabolical.

So, by saying right out that they are a Bernie supporter everyone will think that they are not a Bernie supporter, when actually they really are a Bernie supporter who happens to want to destroy Bernie's reputation. See?

[gollygee]

301. A battle of wits

[GoneFishin]

320. That's a pretty fun clip. Thanks.

[FlatBaroque]

307. You know what's weird?

That an internet bully, whose only weapon is anonymity, would voluntarily declare himself a Sanders supporter thus giving up information about himself.

[gollygee]

310. That's not personal information

Especially here at DU where Sanders supporters are in the majority.

[840high]

324. It is weird. I'm not

buying this whole mess. Political and personal agenda behind this.

[GoneFishin]

326. It always stems from politics in one way or another.

[GoneFishin]

325. I agree. Only a right wing troll who stood to gain by damaging Bernie's campaign would

deliberately offend a lot of people and dragging down Bernie, while pretending to be "defending" Bernie.

It's nonsensical.

[NorthCarolina]

358. "voluntarily declare himself a Sanders supporter"

is the key. The letter wouldn't accomplish any goal without that key bit of information. After much thought on this issue, I tend to believe it was most likely an attempt at shit stirring, but not by a true Sanders supporter. Sanders supporters have absolutely NOTHING to gain by it, so the sensible answer is that it was someone with some "other" motive.

There is apparently much hate and animosity from the Clinton camp directed at Bernie as I am quite sure they hold him fully accountable for Hillary dropping in the polls as evidenced by Sanders recent gains. Remember, it was Hillary supporters who Booed Sanders at the fair last weekend. I don't recall any GOP candidate supporters booing him as he walked passed, just the Hillary group. That in itself speaks volumes...to me anyway.

[historylovr]

417. I'm with you. This declaring himself as a Sanders supporter seems too obvious.

What does that add to the letter? What is the purpose? I've seen speculation that it's a warning not to fuck with Bernie, to paraphrase. I don't buy it. This letter helps neither Bernie nor his supporters here, and it certainly isn't going to intimidate bravenak. So who really stands to gain from sending a letter that's tailor-made for sharing on the internet?

[NorthCarolina]

421. The culprit is usually identifiable by examinimg

who stands the most to gain from it. For what it's worth though, I don't believe the recipient sent it to themselves, but that still does not exclude some form of coordination behind it.

[historylovr]

435. No, nor do I.

Whoever did it, one thing's for certain, this primary season has officially jumped the shark and landed in crazy town. sigh

[840high]

488. Good thought. I am not

discounting the benefit angle.

[Chathamization]

413. What also doesn't fit is that they seem to think the jury system works to their advantage. Check out

any of the protected groups - everyone thinks that the other side is abusing the jury system, every group thinks that there are fewer hides against their enemies than their should be and that the hides against their friends are "BS" and the result of alert stalking. Sanders supporters think the Clinton people are abusing the system, Clinton people think Sanders supporters are abusing the system, etc.

Edit: The other thing that strikes me as odd is attempting to stop someone from posting who isn't able to post now. And someone who you supposedly have the power to stop from posting even when they come back. It's also odd because if I do a search for "bravenak" over the past few weeks to see if anyone was getting agitated about her, I find a few people who were but none of them seem to be Sanders supporters.

[marym625]

331. Absolutely no doubt in my mind

That the intention was to fuck with du, using bravenak as the epicenter. It's disgusting, no matter who or why.

Bravenak is a woman I am very glad to call friend. This is a terribly shitty thing to do to her. But I believe she wasn't the only target. All us were.

Unfortunately, it seems to have worked.

[MannyGoldstein]

334. And since it worked *this* time...

there will be a next time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

343. YUP!!!!

[marym625]

374. Unfortunately, you're probably right.

I just hope they leave bravenak alone and, when it happens again, we don't feed the troll.

[MannyGoldstein]

385. Mind if I borrow the "feed the troll" phrase for something?

I'll give you credit, promise!

(If you dare )

[marym625]

387. I can't take credit for that phrase, though I wish I could.

Use it will, my friend.

[hifiguy]

341. Agreed.

The trolling on DU has increased recently. This sounds like the work of a troll/shit-stirrer.

Absolutely intolerable, whoever is responsible.

[KG]

371. this thread has been comedy gold...

[ozone_man]

388. I think you are right.

That it makes no sense that a Bernie supporter would do that.
There is also the possibility that sender and recipient are the same. Maybe i have read too many Agatha Christie novels.

[HooptieWagon]

394. There is that possibility.

However, that doesn't dismiss any of the other possibilities.

[SMC22307]

419. Where's Poirot when we need him?

[JustAnotherGen]

395. DU's owners could stop the speculation around alert stalking by releasing statistics

they choose not to.

And given that I've been told by several reliable sources that this occurs, it remains my best guess.

[SMC22307]

416. EarlG: "The problem is perception, not the reality of the situation"

Here are the jury stats from the last 24 hours.

Total alerts sent: 24
Total number of hides: 3

Distribution:

General Discussion: 10 alerts (2 hides)
General Discussion: Primaries: 7 alerts (1 hide)
Latest Breaking News: 4 alerts
Bernie Sanders Group: 1 alert
Ask The Administrators: 1 alert
Israel/Palestine Group: 1 alert

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=8662

[steve2470]

422. they are blind to the problem, I see it clear as day nt

[SMC22307]

434. You're seeing what you want to see. (n/t)

[steve2470]

436. tell that to PoC in AA forum... so we disagree nt

[SMC22307]

442. DUers sent on time-out are a mixed bag racially.

I'd share user names, but that's too much of a call-out (and just a wee bit creepy). And with at least two of the current vacationers, I have no idea as to whether they are white, black, American Indian, Alaska Native, Asian, Native Hawaiian, or Other Pacific Islander. Do you?

[steve2470]

444. I don't keep track of the alerts, except for the regulars in AA

Bravenak and 1SBM are both on time-out. I don't think they deserved it, but obviously the juries didn't see it my way.

[SMC22307]

447. Let's have a look, shall we?

Bravenak's 7 hides:

1. 4-3, Sanders' white supremacists supporters.

2. 5-2, Sanders' white supremacist supporters.

3. 4-3, Sanders' racist supporters.

4. 4-3, scared of "white ass" Bernie crowds having power over her.

5. 4-3, racist @angryblacklady tripe slamming '60s white progressives and Sanders for not knowing how to talk to black people. (That truly deserves an )

6. 4-3, goofy Game of Thrones reference that backfired with the jury ("you take your chances&quot .

7. 4-3, I'm guessing the jury went with "personal attack."

Here's a thought: Stop calling Sanders supporters racist, white supremacists and maybe, just maybe, you won't have posts hidden. This *ain't* rocket science. She deserved everyone of those hides, but for one, maybe two.

Haven't checked SBM's hides.

[steve2470]

448. we disagree about alerts

I don't give a SHIT if you insult a group of supporters. However, the second you imply or state an insult about a INDIVIDUAL supporter, then I do care.

I'm a Bernie supporter, and SOME of the supporters are out of control. There I said it. I'll probably get a hide for this.

So, I disagree. Go make your argument in AA. Good day.

[SMC22307]

449. Using your logic, if an INDIVIDUAL Hillary supporter is called something like...

I dunno, a bloodthirsty warmonger, that's bad, but if a GROUP of Hillary supporters are called bloodthirsty warmongers, that's OK? Interesting. I'm trying to come up with actual examples, but can't. Do you have examples of Hillary supporters being attacked in the "useless white supremacist liberal" vein?

Yep, we disagree about alerts.

[Number23]

454. Bravenak sure caught your attention, didn't she?

How very interesting.

[SMC22307]

457. LOL, let's read between the lines...

you're suggesting *I* sent the threatening letter!

(Has the police report been posted yet?)

[Number23]

473. Wasn't even thinking of suggesting that. But how remarkable that this is immediately where

your head went!

[SMC22307]

474. I don't believe you.

Cheers, indeed! Tonic and an interesting Irish vodka for me... you?

[Number23]

475. I genuinely couldn't care less.

[SMC22307]

476. I'm crushed. (n/t)

[MannyGoldstein]

479. Very telling.

Better Believe It!

[nadinbrzezinski]

439. I have been alert stalked and bullied as well

if the admins dealt with it when it was relatively targeted and small, this mess would not exist currently.

[840high]

490. That's your opinion.

[steve2470]

491. yep and they are still blind... go ask the PoC... not just my opinion nt

[steve2470]

420. People of Color are being alert-stalked

Those of you who are alert-stalking PoC, stop it. Now.

I'm sure this post will earn me my very first hide on DU. C'est la vie.

[zappaman]

427. One look at the AA forum

Will show you are truthful in this statement.
It's disgusting.
And your statement is in no way hide worthy.
But that doesn't mean they won't try...

[steve2470]

428. oh I'm pretty confident there will be an attempt

I've seen people hidden for pretty dumb reasons.

[zappaman]

429. I wouldn't be surprised either.

[steve2470]

430. hope you guys get more gentle rain in LA and in California! nt

[zappaman]

432. Gentle?

If forecasts are right...torrential!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2015/09/10/el-nino-california-drought/72017258/

[steve2470]

433. ah, going to read now nt

[orpupilofnature57]

478. + 1000

I'm kicked out , one of three in two months, I've been here 12 yrs I've never had problems until lately.

[nadinbrzezinski]

440. Not from me

but I do not alert or play in juries, abusive systems that they are.

[steve2470]

441. you've been alert stalked, for sure

It was glaringly obvious with you. Hopefully they leave you alone now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

443. They partially got the desired result

there is a lot of shit I will not post here. And that list is growing.

[HereSince1628]

438. I'm not sure Occam's Razor says that...

My understanding is that the principle of parsimony was a device for measuring the goodness of argumentation, not likelihoods of outcomes.

Within rhetoric the argument that gets to the result in the fewest steps without making an error is the better argument.

With respect to the making of assumptions ,needed to support an argument, it's frequently the case, that the more assumptions that are made, the the more likely the argument is to fit the model that generates the assumptions. That assumption generating model may or may not make good projections to empirical reality and models have a bad habit of being either overly general,b not needing many specifics and providing unsatisfactory results, or being overly specific and thereby impossible to implement because of a lack of detailed knowledge the model requires.

With respect to the mail in question, we simply don't know very much. It was, seemingly obviously, generated by someone informed about DU alert and jury function and Bravenak's activity on DU. But that doesn't take us very far because in this case those bits of information also describes the position of the victim. If we go just on simplest possible hypotheses, that inevitably pushes us to suspect the victim. Must the victim be required to demonstrate proof of innocence to overcome what is the most simple argument?

That seems sort of perverse and likely to generate emotional dissonance.

[Eleanors38]

452. The mass media model, which legitimizes national myth and sets agendas, has crapped.

Now, any barking spider dangling over a a stagnant pool can be a roaring gas giant by what's left of the evening news. Curious, but the supply/demand model cannot be used to explain or predict this nation's greatest asset and raison d'ete: Celebrity culture. There is endless supply, and endless demand.

No wonder some celeb takes over an awards ceremony, a tRump talks about husslin' his daughter, a punk shoots up a theater.

[DonCoquixote]

456. UGH

Manny, normally I like you, but frankly, if a lot of Bernie Sanders supporters were not yelling at one college kid in Seattle, or did not come here and start trying to make black people feel like "how dare you" just because Sanders got caught with a hole in his policy, that person, if even if they some 15 yr old, would not have been able to say something like that and have it stick. Even so, we do have not only every right, but an obligation to see that this forum is not a springboard to crime, which this was.

Yeah, whoever did this looks pathetic, so did Dylan Roof with a haircut that looked like a bad cartoon.

[Logical]

461. I have not read the letter. What was the crime? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

463. You are actually comparing what happened at Charlestown

with people being quite skeptical of taking this letter at face value, mostly (I do not support Sanders by the way) becuase of the LLLOOOONGGG history we have of certain RW places mucking with DU members? Really?

I guess uggh is the right word... if not a stronger term.

[DonCoquixote]

467. YES

not that people who speak are like Dylann Roof, but the fact that yes, we need to take threats seriously (and yes, sending threats to someone over the US mail IS A CRIME.) People who say "don't take this seriously" or opening the door that the right wing will kick down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

469. Let me clue you in as to what will happen with this

And by the way, I take the threat very seriously.

Right at the moment, after the Postal Inspector got this, there is an investigation ongoing. How much of a priority is put on it depends on a threat assessment. IF all she got was these two letters, it is a very low, thankfully, astronomically low, threat assessment. Ergo the priority will be lower than whale shit, and when the report reaches the US District Attorney, even if this is a violation of Federal Law on the face of it, all we will see will be a file opened, in the off chance something should happen.

If, and I will not ask her, or the PI, there is more to this that raises the threat level, then you may see something more happen, all the way to maybe Federal Charges.

Knowing also how courts work... you and I will not know for months, if not outright a year.

I take this quite seriously, I just do not think that the comparison is quite correct though... and on the one hand I hope this is so low priority that there is nothing more worthy than being scared (which is bad enough)...but if there is more... I hope whoever did it, and I am willing to lay good odds it's not who you think, given the history of this site and a few others, that the person doing this will face a judge.

For the record, who I believe did this has a lot more in common with Dylann Roof than a Sanders supporter.

[DonCoquixote]

471. A humble retort

for the record, I do not think it matters whether this was a sanders supporter, a freeper, Miles O' Keefe, or some glorified idiot who thought "this''ll be cool, heheheehehe", and yes, wheels of justice will grind slowly, but they need to grin, because people need to learn that when they joke around with threats, you can become that person that got a lot of trouble.

[nadinbrzezinski]

472. Fully agreed... I just also know

that they work on threat assessment levels

On the bright side, they take this shit far more seriously than back in the Cambrian when we got a threat from a whole different forum and over a game.

Yes 911 changed a lot of stuff, including how seriously law enforcement takes this shit. They used not to. IMHO they still do not take it seriously enough.

[orpupilofnature57]

477. HER and one other person are on my ignore list, I don't have time for childish antics, did someone

Last edited Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:26 PM - Edit history (1)

else actually see the letters?

[blackspade]

480. I still think it is a DUer.

One that should be bounced the fuck out of here and all info about them turned over to the Feds by the Admins.

The stalking of AA posters is out of hand at DU and I find it patently offensive on a Democratic board.
We should all be rallying around Bravenak, 1SBM, Heaven05, and giftedgirl to name a few but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.....

[steve2470]

483. were heaven05 and giftedgirl timedout too ? never mind, looked it up, wow...sigh

I agree with you.

[blackspade]

484. Sigh indeed.

Their hides were total bullshit.

[steve2470]

486. yep they were, and there's no alert-stalking, um, yea, right! nt

[SMC22307]

523. EarlG on 8/31/15: "....more than 99.5% of all posts are never alerted on."

Star Member EarlG (14,455 posts)

3. Here are some stats that I compiled last Friday

(So these were accurate for the 24-hour period between last Thursday afternoon and last Friday afternoon.)

34 alerts were sent in the last 24 hours.

Of the 34 alerts sent, 11 resulted in a hide. The other 23 were left alone.

Most of the alerts occurred during the daytime. Between midnight and 8am ET, only four alerts were sent and only one of those resulted in a hide.

The 34 alerts were sent by 29 individual alerters. 25 alerters sent one alert. Three alerters sent two alerts. One alerter sent three alerts.

The 34 alerts were sent on 31 individuals. 28 people were alerted on once. Three people were alerted on twice.

Of the three people alerted on twice, only one was alerted on twice by the same alerter. (Neither alert resulted in a hide.) The other two people who were alerted on twice were new members, both of whom were subsequently banned by MIRT.

The total number of alerts is a little on the low side compared to some days -- if there is a big contentious issue under discussion we can sometimes be in the 50-60 range (which still means that more than 99.5% of all posts are never alerted on). But overall these stats are pretty typical. I just glanced at the stats for the last 24 hours and there have been 33 alerts and 10 hides.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=8579

I love data.

What race are heaven and giftedgirl? I have no idea. I'll tell ya what I remember about giftedgirl -- her *delightful* pro-Farrakhan posts in a thread re: Bernie's family, the Holocaust, and #BLM demanding that he bow down. Fuck that noise. She deserved the hides.

[steve2470]

524. you are so wrong. Good day nt

[mia]

532. Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

On Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:27 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

What an amazing dust storm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7166389

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Another ridiculous accusation that Bravenak wrote the letter herself, I am sick of this shit. How about people just stand up for a fellow DU'er? Nope apparently it's not going to happen. This accusation is insensitive, hurtful, and over the top please vote to hide this.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:37 AM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with the person who sent the alert.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's just one person's opinion, and he/she did it out in the open. We can't always hide what we don't agree with. The best counter to it is continued support for Bravenak, out in the open.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree with the alert. There are very good analyses of the letter on DU, and this is yet another attack on Bravenak. There is a lot of racism and sexism in the responses to this letter issue. It's bad enough without more personal attacks based on pure speculation. Hide it.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This post and so many others are OTT nasty, including many of the ones accusing and attacking Sanders' supporters. I would vote to hide many of them as well.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[nadinbrzezinski]

533. That was ugly and I do hope this poster is NOT a lawyer

that was one ugly post.

[SMC22307]

525. Better get working on a good seat...

for the ticker-tape homecoming.

Played, indeed.

[Agschmid]

531. .

What crap.

[stevenleser]

538. The outside agitators you want to blame aren't the ones alert-stalking non-Bernie supporters.

And they aren't the ones in the juries voting to hide posts by women, LGBT, African Americans and any other folks who don't support Bernie and/or support Hillary.

While it is convenient to blame non-DUers for what happened to bravenak and to say that Bernie Supporters believe in love not war, there are a lot of folks currently on timeout, who were on timeout in the past, and who have received a smattering of hides, and it was not at the hands of Freepers/DIers or anyone else outside of DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=24852