For people talking about having a 50 year old retirement age

[RB TexLa]

Do you have any idea how worthless you will feel retired at age 50?

[Logical]

1. I am 52 and think it is a stupid idea. n-t

[TBF]

2. Who is talking about that?

do you have a link or something to refer us to? at the rate we're going in this country most of us will be lucky if we retire EVER, much less at 50

[white_wolf]

42. Here you go:

It's a thread proposing lowering the Social Security age to 50. For what it's worth, I would support the decision. Here's the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002717474

[TBF]

80. I would too - it would free up jobs for young folks, 55 for sure.

I would also support single payer health care so folks could actually afford to retire and not worry about their health.

I was just surprised to see someone talking along those lines in this country! Ha.

[Zanzoobar]

3. I turned 50 this year

If I could, I would retire right now. I've been productive for 38 years. That's enough, but I will probably work until I drop dead.

[Politicalboi]

4. It wouldn't mean

You have to retire at 50. I sure would like to have that option. But I feel I have a good 10 years left of employment. I'm 51, and unemployed at this time.

[Brickbat]

5. Is it a manditory retirement age?

[LibertyLover]

83. There is where I work

Currently you have to retire at age 62. Some of the senior people get exceptions for a year or two. Us lower level staff, not so much. We don't have a union, per se, but rather a Staff Association. They are seriously fighting to get the mandatory retirement age lifted to age 65. I only have 3 more years until I'm 62 and I hope they do get it raised, if for no other reason than I have a few more years (please the Gods!) of raises that will determine my pension amount. Luckily I'm under the old pension plan which is 85% of the average of my last three years' gross salary. The new pension plan is based on a percentage of net salary.

[BeyondGeography]

6. Worthless?

Weird choice of words there.

Bored, maybe. If you have a limited imagination.

I'll turn 53 later this year and if someone told me I could retire at 55 I would hurt myself celebrating.

[Wellstone ruled]

7. Retired at 63 and flunked it 4 times so far!! HEE HEE

[badtoworse]

8. Pretty worthless

I lost my job when I was 50, but I got a great package and I didn't feel so bad about it. It took me a few months to find another job and in the interim, I was climbing the walls wanting to do something.

[abelenkpe]

9. There are a lot of things I'd like to do with my time yet

I'd like some good years to labor for myself not others.

[Cleita]

10. Back when my husband retired, during the Clinton years, many of the retirees we met

were in their fifties having taken early retirement because their companies sort of pushed them out. Actually, they took second jobs, like we did, in campgrounds and the retirement money they received kept them solvent because the money we got from the Forest Service was only a few hundred a month. My DH was in his sixties so we relied on his Social Security and retirement savings. We hardly felt worthless and at that age we were able to provide a service we would have been too weak and ill to do fifteen years later. Many other retirees were able to follow their life's dream they couldn't while tied down to a career and raising a family.

I think retirement from one career at fifty would be about right and yet the retiree is still young and healthy enough to pursue another job or career opportunity, he or she couldn't do before.

[TrollBuster9090]

15. I like your signature banner! nt

[DavidDvorkin]

11. People have to work for others in order to feel worthwhile?

[Zalatix]

33. Please make a thread about this so I can rec it. It deserves to be discussed AT LENGTH.

[bhikkhu]

46. Employment is often the primary role one plays in society

...whether it is self-employment or any other form.

Everybody naturally wants to play a role in society; it doesn't have to be earning a wage, but most people have little experience outside of that, and our culture hasn't exactly done a good job of valuing other roles. Plenty of people I have talked to retire and just feel lost, for years, until bad health or memory loss provides them with new challenges.

[DavidDvorkin]

56. And plenty of people retire and love it.

[Selatius]

68. I think what you said is probably the worst indictment of western civilization I've read here.

The fact that people feel "lost" without working for somebody else or to enrich oneself in the form of a business owner shows how deeply ingrained our way of life has become.

For anyone to say that it is a contest between the philosophy of living to work vs. working to live is a laughable statement. It's more like a war waged against the idea of working to live.

Ultimately, I'm a geek for referencing this youtube video, but I would like to work towards a world embodied in this video, a world where greed doesn't dominate everything and where workers are valued as human beings instead of being viewed as objects from which one can extract labor for one's own gain:

[Starry Messenger]

12. Really? I have lots of hobbies.

And at least 15 years of half-finished craft projects stuffed into a closet.

[gkhouston]

32. Meanwhile, you're building another closet...

[Starry Messenger]

43. That's only half-finished too.

[gkhouston]

44. Tragically, it's not even a contiguous half. n/t

[TrollBuster9090]

13. Actually, phased, 4 and 3 day work week retirements make more sense.

Here's the economic and demographic elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about:

THERE IS PLENTY OF WEALTH to go around. But it is all being hogged by baby boomers in their late 50s and early 60s who are at the top of their careers, but who STILL INSIST on working 70 hour weeks to earn even more and accumulate even more. At the same time, these people complain about having to work too hard and not having enough time for family, vacation etc.

What happened to those 'three hour work days' we were promised in the JETSONS cartoons? All of the robotics and automation, all of the increases in efficiency were intended to give us more leisure time. At least that's how it was billed and sold in the 50s when the trend began. What ever happened to that idea? More people earning decent salaries, but having to work fewer days/hours per week. As opposed to what we got: a few people working around the clock for massive salaries, and the majority working around the clock for minimum wage?

I'm a big supporter of the four day work week. But that's not going to happen. However, an attractive alternative would be to restructure the tax code to favor top earners reducing their work hours as they get closer to retirement, and have younger workers take up the slack.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

20. Did you forget your sarcasm thingy?

_THERE IS PLENTY OF WEALTH to go around. But it is all being hogged by baby boomers in their late 50s and early 60s who are at the top of their careers, but who STILL INSIST on working 70 hour weeks to earn even more and accumulate even more. At the same time, these people complain about having to work too hard and not having enough time for family, vacation etc._
This is a rather outlandish generalization, don't you think? I'm in my early sixties and I have NO money (well, a little but not much) and I'd be glad to leave the rat race to the younger rats but I can't afford it...........

[Zalatix]

34. The wealth isn't being hoarded by baby boomers, it's being hoarded by the Plutocracy.

The rest of what you said was stellar, though.

[JDPriestly]

65. The 35-hour work week would be a good compromise.

When I was working, I sometimes had to work 70 hours and more. That's too much when you are in your 50s and 60s. But working is really a joy if you can get work.

Problem is employers will still hire people in their 50s if they really need someone, but they are generally reluctant to hire and sometimes even to continue employing people over 60. I've seen this over and over.

And, face it, we do slow down when we get over 65 or so.

But we are in our prime in our 50s. Remember that. You are probably in your prime in your 50s. Don't let anyone tell you any different. Best years in life.

It's a shame the economy is so bad since Bush. That man and his buddies really messed things up for the rest of America.

[HiPointDem]

71. i was with you until "it's all hogged by the baby boomers in their late 50s".

[ingac70]

14. Speak for yourself! n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

16. WORTHLESS????????? Good God man...........

There are SO many ways I could fill up my time productively it isn't even funny. HOWEVER, none of them actually involve putting more profits into a capitalist's wallet. They ALL involve making myself a better and more educated person.

It's TOTAL bullshit capitalist propaganda that you have to have a JOB to feel self worth. In fact, any sort of worth you get from a job is external. REAL self worth comes from within, not external factors like a job.

[OmahaBlueDog]

21. I don't have a job to have self worth. I trade my labor to pay for things.

I like my things. I especially like the things I can eat. One of my favorite things is my roof. I like my roof. I feel blessed to have one.

Not all work involves putting more profits in a capitalist's wallet. There are plenty of paid positions with non-profits. There are also government positions. ...and there are capitalists and there are capitalists. Maybe at 55 you don't want to make JP Morgan Chase rich, but wouldn't mind helping out some 22 year olds starting up a business.

[socialist_n_TN]

24. If it were distributed properly (to everyone according to need).........

there is PLENTY of wealth to go around. EVERYONE could have a roof and food and healthcare and education. And yes LEISURE! But it won't happen while the blood sucking parasites take a lion's share of everything as a "profit" and don't give the workers shit in return.

[RKP5637]

28. Well said! We live in an egregious capitalistic system. A few are

devouring the country, and we might as well just call congress the corporate board. Given more time, this well might reign as one of the most unfair systems devised by mankind. Ripping off people is paramount to success and the most ruthless rise to the top. No wonder this is such a cutthroat country. And about 50% of the country lives in poverty or on the edge of poverty. For the majority of people the financial system is a border failure.

[OmahaBlueDog]

39. We disagree, but we're not entirely without common ground

A certain amount of greed and striving are good, from my perspective. If one wants a better home, to eat steak every night, or to drive a shiny sports car, then ideally, one need only build a better mousetrap, become the expert mousetrap repair tech, or advise lesser mortals on where to place mousetraps. Better products and services provided to members of society willing to buy them lead to rewards. To me, that's a good thing.

Where you & I agree, in a sense, is "the blood sucking parasites take a lion's share." Government isn't the problem; multi-billion dollar multinational corporations are the problem. I have nothing against wealth, but once one gets beyond 20 times the median salary (I think currently about $750K), it get's excessive, IMO. You can't eat better, you most likely have more cars than you can drive, and there are few luxurys you can't buy. Yet the Grover Norquist crowd whines like teething two year-olds whenever one suggests that higher taxes on CEOs making thousands of times what the average American worker earns is wrong. To my mind, a multi-millionaire made at least a substantial portion of their money from the honest labor of workers making $8-$12/hour with few benefits -- everyone from drivers to clerks to warehouse workers to call center staff.

[silentwarrior]

73. I agree, self worth comes from within

but I have found alot of folk have looked down their noses at me because I have stayed home to bring up my children. My ex partner especially thought I wasnt good enough for him because I did not have a paying Job?

I intend to go back to college this year now that my children are grown and I have more free time for myself.

I am looking forward to turning 50 this year

[HiPointDem]

75. the entire concept of "self-worth" comes from without. it's a concept given to us by our society

and doesn't exist outside of society.

given that, a feeling of self-generated "self worth" is near-impossible to maintain if all social markers of "worth" (such as e.g. being "socially productive," which includes having children, having a job, having property a/o resources) are removed.

a human being in isolation doesn't think about his self-worth. self-worth only exists in relation to others.

[silentwarrior]

77. mmmm,

good point

[tawadi]

17. I'd like to try it.

Many times I feel worthless in the job I have.

[flamingdem]

18. You're kidding right?

It would be fabulous. 50 is young but 55 yes, at that age it's time for a transition

[HughBeaumont]

79. Sadly, he does not kid with you.

[Skittles]

19. because all employed people are treated as worthy

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. Worthless? Are you kidding?

I took early retirement at the end of last year because my employer relocated my job and I couldn't/didn't want to move. I'm older than 50 but younger than 65, and although I no longer have a full-time job I still have plenty to do, all of it, IMO, as worth-while as my former employment. I can volunteer for several valuable organizations and I can work on all the projects and hobbies I'd neglected for years. I do not feel even slightly worthless because my "worth" has nothing to do with how I make a living.

[doc03]

23. I retired at 62 and I am not bored. I don't know how I ever found the time to work.

Looking back I would have been even happier to retire at 50. Now I suppose if I actually liked my job
I may feel differently about it. I worked 2 years at a telephone company, 2 years in the Army and almost 40 years in a
steel mill and I absolutely hated every one of them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Do military personnel feel "worthless" when they can potentially

retire at 38?

I've been self-employed for 19 years, and the one difference between retirement and full working for me would be that as a retiree I could choose which projects to work on instead of having to translate a lot of boring stuff to pay the bills.

I could also do more volunteer work and travel.

[OmahaBlueDog]

36. As a practical matter, most don't "retire" after their 20 years.

Most take their pension, and then either get a job or start a business. Being self-employed is a great deal more attractive to a 38-40 year old with a pension as a safety net.

[Booster]

26. When I used to see stories on the late news about little old ladies found dead in their

house and the police would say 'the place was a dump; cat cans all over the place; just a mess". I now know exactly what those little old ladies said to themselves every day - "I'll clean that up in a little while".

[Luminous Animal]

31. Nobody is a little old lady at age 50.

[Booster]

41. I'm 69 & I was talking about little old ladies older than that.

[Luminous Animal]

62. Yes. There is plenty of time between age 50 and dying amongst cat food cans

to be a vibrant part of your community.

[dkf]

27. People don't need to feel like they have worth if they can have fun and sit on their asses.

That is the point.

[doc03]

35. +1

[white_wolf]

45. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but...

did you really just say people who would like retire at 50 want to sit on their asses? I'm assuming you also have a problem with the Steve Jobs of the world and Wall Street bankers who sit on their asses for the majority, if not all, of their adult lives? After all, if you attack hardworking people for wanting to retire and enjoy the fruits of their labor surely you attack the parasites for enjoying the fruit of their bloodsucking. God, that metaphor got mixed.

[dkf]

63. It's not even about retirement.

Most people work because they need to, not because it is enjoyable and makes a person feel self worth.

Give me $10 million and I'll retire right now and enjoy life just because I can.

[HiPointDem]

76. yep. rich people don't have to worry about their self-worth. their money makes it irrelevant.

they do what they want, and if they want to avoid the competition of public life, they can just tend their own garden.

[Luminous Animal]

29. No. In fact, I would be infinately more useful...

First, I would not be working for someone else that robs my time and energy in order to enrich themselves. The 11 hours a day that I would be free to give back to the community would be heaven on earth.

Second, things I would have time for (and the skills to make a difference):
Volunteering at:

Food Not Bombs

Dumpster diving
Negotiating for underground food scraps from restaurants
Cooking

Homes Not Jails
Community garden projects

Saving seed initiatives
Community composting
Water reclamation

Tutoring at 826 Valencia

Free government paperwork filing for non-profits



Playing bass more often and (gasp) the time to play with other people.
Free time to assist my elderly friends in my neighborhood.

[raouldukelives]

48. Awesome. It is what we truly need to turn things around.

I think we need to really take a hard look at sustaining people and doing it in an environmentally conscious way. Better to spend a little additional money making people self-sustainable than to continue having people drive two hours a day to sit in front of a computer and push decimal points around to satisfy the stock market. Creating vast amounts of pollution to and fro and then creating nothing but more speculation leading to more environmental destruction and more waste leading to even more problems in the future. What could be more worthless than that?
I'm all for people feeling useful but not at the expense of helpless people and critters who should have the right to enjoy a little sunshine, nature and peace for the short visit they have on this once and still could be beautiful planet.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

30. A person's self-worth is not determined by how much money they make for the capitalists...

Get a hobby.

[Yavin4]

37. Only a dullard needs a job to make them feel worthwhile.

I work so that I can pay rent and eat. I'm 48. If I could retire in 2 Years, I would have a greater sense of self worth, then I would by working. There's a lot of drudgery with my job, and it can make you feel like a shit.

If I could retire, I would fill my days learning new things. New languages. History, philosophy, literature, the arts, music, etc., etc., etc. I would actually become a better, more enlightened person if I did not have to work.

[Coyote_Bandit]

38. How many 50 year olds

have enough retirement savings to support themselves - and their health care needs - for their remaining 25 to 30 years of life expectancy?

Very few. Even when their resources are supplemented with a few crumbs from Social Security.



The issue here isn't when folks should have the opportunity to retire. The issue is why the hell our economy cannot employ the people who are willing and able to work. If we'd address those issues then maybe we wouldn't have to encourage kids to take on debt and stay in school until their mid to late 20's while simultaneously trying to discourage workers and remove them from the labor force beginning somewhere around age 40.

[flamingdem]

40. If we got Medicare at 50 many more could retire nt

[raccoon]

81. You beat me to the post! nt

[flamingdem]

85. We know that would be great!

... sigh dream on

[white_wolf]

47. Marx wrote about this in one of his books, i'll try and find it.

Marx discusses this in one of his books. He writes that the average working person doesn't consider his work to be part of his life. He considers it something he must do to get to the real part of his life. To most people stuck in a dull meaningless job, work is just a barrier to their true life.



As for what people could do to fill the time, I can think of a lot of things. Perhaps they could go back to school and learn something new they've always wanted to learn. Hell, if I can ever afford it I'm planing on going back and majoring in philosophy because I would love to learn more about it. Perhaps they could devote themselves to arts they like, maybe take up writing or photography or anything. Perhaps they are spiritually inclined and would like to get closer to God(s)/Nirvana/whatever and would like to spend some time at religious retreats in monasteries or something like that. I'm sure there are lots of things people would love to do if they didn't have to worry so much about how they are going to afford to eat or if they can keep a roof over their heads. If you actually think that people derive meaning from their work and only their work you have a dull view of humanity.

[trackfan]

57. I was just thinking of that quote.

I think it's from the tract "Wage Labour and Capital". Let me see if I can find it....
...
Here it is:

"And the worker, who for twelve hours weaves, spins, drills, turns, builds, shovels, breaks stones, carries loads, etc - does he hold this twelve hours' weaving, spinning, drilling, turning, building, shoveling, stone-breaking to be a manifestation of his life, to be life? On the contrary, life begins for him where this activity ceases, at table, in the tavern, in bed. The twelve hours' labour, on drilling, etc., but as earnings, which bring him to the table, to the tavern, into bed."

Amen.

[peabody]

49. Really?

If you feel "worthless" just because you're retired at 50, then you have a serious self-esteem problem. I hate to be so blunt, but for some one to insinuate that just because you stop working on your career, you're going to feel worthless is just plain $@#%$#@.

[CreekDog]

50. well thanks for the psychological advice

but i value that as much as your political advice.

[peabody]

51. I didn't give any political advice

Just making a statement.

[CreekDog]

53. that's correct

because i wasn't talking to you.

[peabody]

54. Oh, Sorry about that.

My fault, and my apologies.

[CreekDog]

55. No worries and I liked your response to the OP!

I agree 100%

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. I retired at 55 and would gladly have done so at 50.

Working is highly overrated as a source of worth.

[TheKentuckian]

58. Why would being retired make one feel worthless, unless their self worth was derived from work?

Apparently exclusively or enough so to get well into worthless territory.

[jp11]

59. If I get ousted from my job like many people at or near that age I'd be happy to

have the option of retiring over burning through my savings (hope I'd have some) just to stay afloat.

And there's no reason you'd HAVE to retire just it COULD be an option hell even if you got reduced benefits and it didn't kick in full for 5-10 more years it would at least be something when/if you can't get rehired and have to take some minimum wage job. At least then you might be able to get by on just one such job instead of 2-3.

As for feeling worthless so long as I was of good health I'd keep myself busy one way or another there's nothing that says retiring means you sit on you butt all day doing 'nothing' to feel 'worthless'.

[neverforget]

60. Maybe you would, but I certainly wouldn't

[JVS]

61. I'd be happy to run that risk.

[JDPriestly]

64. 63 and thereafter is a good age to retire.

I would have liked to work until I was 70.

If you retire too early, you won't like it.

I started a career (went back to school) when I was 50 and was really finally happy when I graduated and started working in my new field.

50 is still very young. Too young. I'm not opposed to providing Social Security to people who need to retire at 50 because of illness or a lack of a job, but it's too young to face as many as 50 additional years without a job.

But then, I liked working. Always did. And keep very busy even in retirement.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

66. I'm planning on being semi or fully retired at fifty,

My parents retired at 66 and 68, and too frail to do much of anything.

[ErikJ]

67. "1000 Places to see before you die" book

Some old guy told me, travel before youre old it gets too hard by the time youre 65.
I'm reading a book now "1000 Places to see before you die", which really really gets me itchy to travel the world.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

72. We have a plan,

Work our asses off till we're fifty and then liquidate, buy a tiny condo to store our shit and see the world.

My passport is worthy of a Lonely Planet presenter, however my world travel mostly amounts to getting off the plane, into a waiting car and whisked off to an office park which look pretty much the same everywhere. The upside of course is we both have a metric fuck ton of frequent flyer miles.

[ErikJ]

69. Confucius said “Find a job you love and you’ll never work a day in your life”

And probably most people havent so retiring at 50 would enable them to find that job easier. I also remember a quote by some philosopher/writer who said that man never worked as hunter-gatherers which made up 95% of human history.

[REP]

70. No, because I retired at 38 and it is fucking awesome

[HiPointDem]

74. a prolonged period of unemployment has actually led me to believe that most jobs are worthless,

not most people.

most of the things called "jobs" are

1) make-work managing and controlling the problems capitalism produces (criminals/prisoners, drug addicts, the unemployed, the poor, and all the problems these people have because of their social status and social humiliation);
2) guarding a/o maintaining the property of the rich,
3) generating propaganda for the rich, including advertising, political and economic commentary, "news", much of what's called science, etc.
4) researching and building weapons, surveillance systems, drugs and other control goods for the rich, including genetic and psychiatric research,
5) producing opiates, circuses, religion and other forms of spectacle and mental/physical escape for the masses;
6) other such.

very little paid work is actually about producing useful, life-enhancing things (goods or services), and the part that is is always tainted in some way by the fact that production is geared towards the needs of the ownership class.

for example, i consider educating young people an important function of any society. but that way it's currently done and what is taught was decided by the rulers, and when their needs change, they restructure education to fit their needs -- as they are now.

[pa28]

89. Oh my. This is an excellent post.

Especially your note at the end about education.

I live in a small town that has built an excellent school district with top notch teachers. It's the crown jewel of our community. Currently some RW asshats in the area are trying gut everything we've built and replace it with the plutocratic model of education reform. Nobody will discuss the Finnish model even though the cost per student is less.

[spinbaby]

78. At 50, it's not retirement, it's a second career

My husband is planning to retire next year when he is still in his 50s. He's retiring because he has a very physical job--that wasn't a problem when he was younger, but at this age, it's painful. Truthfully, we are somewhat worried about finances, but hopefully, my job will hold up and he can find a second career that he can manage with his arthritis.

[eridani]

82. Do you have any idea about how productivity has improved since WW II?

It takes 1 person to make what it took 4 people to make in 1949. What do you suggest doing with the extra 3 people? Turning them into soylent green? Retiring at 50 is just one option. Another is shorter work weeks. Lavorare meno! Lavorare tutti!

[AngryAmish]

84. I'm going to be retired by 50

What will fill my days? Beer and golf. I'm lazy by nature. I will have no problem cruising for 25-30 years.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. Let me explain. When one can retire at 50, one has more worth than those who must continue to labor

for money. Financially speaking. And in terms of self worth I have to say, making a pile and getting tons of praise for years on end can get as boring as doing nothing. As Willy the Shake said they are as sick that surfeit with too much as they who starve with nothing....

[bemildred]

87. Being free is not the same thing as being worthless..

The best things in life are free,

[ieoeja]

88. Does this mean you feel that retired people are worthless? How about the unemployed? n/t