Reparations All Around! Hear! Hear!

[AllFieldsRequired]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by TexasTowelie (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Mon Sep 28, 2015, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)

If Bernie's fans are right, and income inequality and economics is at the root of all evils in this country including racism or race issues, then...



It makes perfect sense to me that you must provide some method of reparations to Black Americans, Japanese Americans AND Native Americans.

Hey, we know righty will never agree, so this is a liberal discussion.

Before we debate how, how about we debate why not?

[Iggo]

1. Ah-choo!

[Jester Messiah]

2. I'm descended from Irish, where's mine? [nt]

[saturnsring]

5. i was gonna say the same thing

[NaturalHigh]

11. I'm descended from Irish and Cherokee.

When they cut my check, I should be sitting pretty!

[daleanime]

3. At least this Bernie fan doesn't think they are the 'root of all evils'.....

I think that when you're attacking a multi layered problem you need a multi layered approach. And yes, that includes income inequality, wealth inequality and economic issues.

Is that a bad thing?

[Maedhros]

4. Ta-Nehisi Coates made an excellent case for reparations in The Atlantic in June 2014.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

He shows very, very clearly how economic inequality was fostered in and used against the black community.

As a Sanders supporter, I agree with Coates' analysis. I would imagine Bernie does as well.

[AllFieldsRequired]

8. I hope Bernie and supporters agree that reparations are necessary. But if they do, I havent heard.

Dont know what is being proposed as to actual payment in that article.

[Maedhros]

59. I can speak only for myself.

I would imagine one would find a spectrum of opinion amongst Sanders supporters on this (among Clinton supporters as well).

Note that Coate's justification for reparations is not based solely upon slavery, but also on the systematic and institutional financial manipulation and oppression of black people from 1865 forward.

[tishaLA]

72. and it's your second paragraph he addresses eslecially well

There's a myth that reparations are needed as a consequence of slavery. Not for Mr Coates. The crimes have continued to accumulate even to this day. So the predictable arguments of "what about me? I'm Irish/Italian/etc and we faced discrimination, too" rings completely hollow, except in the case of Native Americans.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. ...right.

I doubt you will get what you're looking for, but keep trying!

[Retrograde]

6. As soon as I get mine for serfdom I'll pass on some of it

Although I'm not sure which country to bill, since Eastern European borders were very fluid for centuries.

[bobclark86]

7. But we did give the Japanese Americans reparations...

"Payments to WWII Internees to Begin : Reparations: The budget agreement clears the way for the program. The oldest survivors will be the first to receive the $20,000 checks."

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-10-01/news/mn-1299_1_budget-agreement

[AllFieldsRequired]

9. $20,000? Wow, not even close.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

84. Better than anyone else ever got.

How about we start handing out 20k checks to every Native American and every black person, then we can get around to discussing another round of reparations for all?

[Nye Bevan]

10. How much should Clarence Thomas get? (nt)

[wendylaroux]

28. 20 yrs. nt

[Nye Bevan]

35. .

[AllFieldsRequired]

12. I should not be surprised by some of the comments in this thread.

[saturnsring]

14. no you shouldnt

[AllFieldsRequired]

16. Many privileged white folks will always have a problem with this, I agree.

[saturnsring]

17. calling people names isnt helpful either

[AllFieldsRequired]

18. You dont believe there are many privileged white folks in America? You dont believe

there is white privilege?

[saturnsring]

20. i dont believe calling me names is going to help

[AllFieldsRequired]

21. I didnt call you any names. Now, do you believe all white people have privilege?

In America?

[saturnsring]

23. it depends on what your definition of priviledge is

[Jester Messiah]

44. "Privilege" is just shorthand for "not at a disadvantage".

There are many ways in which one can be at advantage or disadvantage, and it's up to everyone to play the hand they're dealt as best they can.

[gollygee]

67. What names did he call anyone?

I didn't see any name calling.

[Comrade Grumpy]

83. Oh, go away. Don't have much use for the needling.

[LittleBlue]

13. Even attempting to do this would see a Republican majority for 50 years

And probably start a race war. Do you think poor whites and Latinos are going to sit by and watch an entire group of people economically elevated above them?

We don't have the money even if the country did support it.

[AllFieldsRequired]

15. So what you are actually saying is there are a whole lot of racists masquerading as Democrats

because republicans arent a majority. Mathematically that is what you are saying.

And I dont believe for ONE SECOND Latinos would start a race war.

[saturnsring]

19. yea we're all racists in the dem party that's what we're known for

just because we dont fit your definition i guess

[AllFieldsRequired]

22. Ahh, the strawman.

[saturnsring]

24. not a strawman just some snark ansd btw you brought it up

. So what you are actually saying is there are a whole lot of racists masquerading as Democrats

[jwirr]

70. Oh, wait you are wrong Hillary is not a racist she has done

so much to help poc.

[LittleBlue]

29. This would happen in any country regardless of party affiliation

Voters will support legislation to make the playing field more even.

No majority group will tolerate the government-mandated elevation of an ethnic group above others in that majority, and Latinos would never vote for a Democrat again. What do you think will happen when Latinos, who work the most undesirable jobs and hours, see people of another race essentially given their money?

[AllFieldsRequired]

30. You sound so sure of yourself. So absolutely certain...so no point in you and I discussing it any

further.

[LittleBlue]

36. Then why ask "let's debate why not". I'm telling you why not

Let's discuss reparations! Why not? Oh, you're actually going to answer why it can't happen? No point in discussing this any further!

[AllFieldsRequired]

40. You are making absolute statements, you arent discussing anything.

[LittleBlue]

43. I'm telling you why it can never work

What do you want me to do? Add statements like "IMHO" or "I apologize in advance"?

If you don't want people to disagree, then don't ask for opposing viewpoints!

Edit: checked your join date. July 2015 What was your name before this account?

[AllFieldsRequired]

47. Are you bothered that someone wants to discuss reparations? Why is that?

If you are a POC I would think you wouldnt want to dismiss it so easily, and if you are NOT a POC, it would be really arrogant to do so.

Right?

[jwirr]

85. I think you can take the ethnic group out of the argument.

The truth is no powerful group will tolerate the government-mandated elevation of any group above another that has power.

We are all dealing with wealth inequality and we think they are going to welcome any of us up to the ladder? Any of us. Very few of us have any chance at upward mobility today regardless of who we are.

All you have to see the truth of that is to take a look at anyone who has had to live on welfare for any reason. I took care of my disabled daughter for 45 years for less than $.60 an hour (welfare). I am white and I do not see anyone offering to pay me even a minimum wage for that even though they know that it would have cost them a lot more if they had institutionalized her.

Also as to reparations - just a warning TPTB will see any "welfare" we have collected over the years as a big part of any "reparations" that is claimed. And that includes things like education and a lot of things the rest of them get. After they get done adding all they think they have done for the poc in the past it will be lucky that they do not send them a bill.

This argument is not between Bernie supporters and whoever, nor is it between black and white. This issue is about keeping the little guy down and the rich getting richer. It is about money. And as we know money trumps all other considerations.

Reparations should have been paid years ago but I do not see any of TPTB doing it any time in the near future. If it was not done in the last eight years I would guess that you all have about as much hope as I do to get mine. And there will be nothing that either Bernie or Hillary can do about it. Neither of them is going to be the emperor of this country.

IMO the most we can hope for is that someone gets elected to begin to stop the downward slide we are in and work for justice.

[Throd]

25. It is an unworkable idea.

[saturnsring]

26. congrats that statement made you a priviledged racist according to some here

[AllFieldsRequired]

33. Why are you so touchy about white privilege and the fact that racism exists?

[saturnsring]

39. im touchy about people accusing me of being priviledged and racist cause i dont agree with them

[AllFieldsRequired]

42. Oh, OK...You see, I think it is a fact that all white Americans have privilege in America.

I think it is an undeniable fact.

If you arent white, then no matter.

I am, I know I have privilege.

[AllFieldsRequired]

27. Well that settles it then. I bet if I as govt took away your home and business, today, and said it

was because you are Italian (assuming you are Italian and own a home and business, for the sake of the conversation) you would very quickly demand reparations and not consider it unworkable.

I bet everything I have on it, actually.

[Throd]

31. For me, yes. For my great great grandfather, no.

[AllFieldsRequired]

32. If it had been taken from him then, you may have nothing now.

When is the cutoff, 2 yrs?

20 yrs?

Weird how this cutoff works to prevent African Americans and Japanese Americans and Native Americans from receiving justice

[Throd]

38. You're pulling definitions out of your ass and presenting them as undisputible truths.

[AllFieldsRequired]

41. Example?

[Travis_0004]

52. And I agree with that

Besides the Japanese, who we had in interment camps who is alive today that had their homes take away. The Japanese were given reperations, I agree with others that it was too little too late, but there are no black people alive who lived through slavery.

[AllFieldsRequired]

53. You should read up on why it matters GREATLY whether or not anyone alive today

was directly involved or not.

start here


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

I am also reading this now, very informative.

But there are many scholars who will explain it to you

[whathehell]

34. I believe reparations should be paid to the African Americans

for centuries of abuse, and forced slave labor

Freaking A, the White House was built by slaves!

It was done for Native Americans, why not African Americans?


Their claim is certainly as valid.

[AllFieldsRequired]

37. Thank you for your input. I would sugggest that what was done so far for NA is not enough

because of the way it was done, but it was better than nothing.

[leftofcool]

45. Since you got mostly snarky comments, I will telll you why it isn't workable

First, a commission would be set up and rule #1 would be that every Black person in America had to dig into their family tree going back to say, the late 1600's and "prove" they were descendants of slave owners. I see ancestry.com making lots of money here.

Let's say that rule #1 actually panned out and about a million or so Blacks had their "family trees" all nice and tidy for the PTB. That brings us to the next problem, a new cabinet position would be set up similar to the BIA (Boss Indians Around), probably called the BBA (Boss Blacks Around) where you would have to sign up to get on some nice neat roll with a number that might entitle you to a couple of hundred a month (if you were lucky) which would sent to you in the form of a plastic card wherein you had to pay a 25% fee every month just for using it, and even if you used it, the only allowable use would be certain things at the grocery store (any food that does not have a vowel in it). Oh, and did I mention that all commissions and cabinets would be run by white folks?

My sarcastic scenario aside, I do believe in reparations.

[AllFieldsRequired]

48. Thanks. I find it interesting the people who have an immediate negative reaction.

I can assure you if the foot were on the other shoe




well, I got that backwards, but so do most of them.

[demmiblue]

46. You are not obvious. n/t

[tularetom]

49. It's a fair question but an unworkable proposition

If you believe that Trump's proposal to deport 12 million undocumented immigrants is physically and economically impossible, what about determining the appropriate and equitable amount of reparations for probably 100 million Americans who are all or partly African-American, Native American or whatever.

Right now, I'm eagerly awaiting the results of a DNA test to determine my heritage. There's a pretty good chance they're going to find some native American in there (possibly as much as 25%), and a lesser chance that there may be some African American as well. Because my dad was for all practical purposes an orphan, I know next to nothing about the names or backgrounds of his parents. How much should I get? I was never personally discriminated against in education, employment or any other case, but if they're giving out money and my heritage would qualify me for some, sure I'll take it.

The number of Americans with a story similar to mine must be in the millions. Who is going to determine the relative value of all these claims and make sure that all of them are treated fairly and equitably? IMO it can't be done. If there must be reparations, they're going to have to be a token amount, which will just piss off everybody.

[AllFieldsRequired]

50. Doing nothing is your alternative and some say that is simply unacceptable.

[liberal N proud]

51. Let's not leave out the Irish Americans

Irish immigrants were once considered a servant race.

[KamaAina]

65. In New Orleans, a lot of the really dangerous work, such as digging canals, was done by Irishmen.

The rationale being that enslaved Africans represented property, whereas if an Irishman died, another one would show up on the docks the next day to take his place.

[Facility Inspector]

54. Then get to work

make it happen.

Movements start with people. Sometimes just one person.

[AllFieldsRequired]

55. I can count on your help then?

financially?

are you good at writing website code?

[Facility Inspector]

57. wordpress

obviates the need to write code anymore.

I don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, so no cash from me personally, but I would suggest crowdfunding.

I can school you in coalition building, you might want to reach out to BLM as a start.

Sign up as a precinct chair with your local Democratic party and run it past the membership/supporters.

Get used to being on the phone.

If you really believe in this, I will help you with some very basic skills I can teach you, but I have to find a job so I can forestall ever-impending homelessness.

Posting shit here will get you less than a bucket of warm spit if you truly believe this is something you want to achieve.

[TM99]

56. Well your first mistake is your first sentence.

Only to a very vocal minority here at DU has Sanders and his supporters ever suggested that the solution to racism is solely economic. It is a strawman, so be aware that you are building some sort of argument based on a flawed first statement.

Changing institutionalized racism requires both social and economic justice positions and policies. King said it. Malcolm X said it. Sanders said it. And now Warren is reiterating it.

Reparations is a non-starter in the US. Too many ethnic groups have experienced discrimination in this country in one region or another at one time or another. It is not just AA, Japanese, and Native Americans. There are Irish, Germans, Chinese, etc. to name just a few who also suffered.

Additionally, how do we determine who gets it. Is it going to be the old 'one drop' rule? What about mixed and bi-racial individuals and families?

Then we must ask, how do we pay for this? It would naturally have to be a tax. How to we go about getting that tax passed? Who pays for it? Is it progressive? Is it a flat-tax? Should all be responsible for paying? Or only those whose families actually were slave holders?

Finally, if economic justice will not cure racism, then why are you asking for money? It will do you no good. It won't erase the blight that was slavery. It won't punish those who actually were responsible? It won't stop a black man from being pulled over if he is driving a fancy sports car. There is no point.

[LostOne4Ever]

58. I have never claimed economics is at the root of all evils

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=3 color=teal]Please, don't over generalize.

In particular, social issues (as opposed to economic issues) are the ones I get most passionate about and a large part of the reason I support Sanders.

That said, I am in favor of reparations to all those groups. Slavery was a horrible institution that still has repercussions today hurting african american families. The internment of Japanese Americans should never have happened in the modern world and the fact that it did happen is further proof that we must ever remain vigilant against social conservatism. And the genocide of the native American tribes is one of the greatest evils ever committed and the fact that it is so often whitewashed from our history is sick.

We have a debt to every one of those groups (and more) that we need to repay.[/font]

[Facility Inspector]

60. You can make a case for funding through

predecessor corporations and corporations that still exist that largely owe their existence to slave labor.

Just try to get a US rep or senator to disconnect from their tit first.

good luck.

[LostOne4Ever]

62. Again part of the appeal of Sanders

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]He is running his campaign without the backing of corporations and if this catches on we can have more and more advocates in congress not controlled by special interests.

If we get enough people like that into positions of power we can start passing laws (and maybe even an amendment or two) to end the campaign cronyism.

I doubt that the election of Sanders alone will get the job done, but it could be the snowball rolling down hill that eventually turns into a giant ice boulder that brings desperately needed change to our electoral system.

The journey of a Thousand miles begins with a single step.[/font]

[Facility Inspector]

63. Nothing is impossible

the people, the masses have to become monolithic and a veritable threat to the oligarchs before REAL change can happen.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. How does this relate to Bernie Sanders? It's not like Hillary is supporting reparations with vigor

while he opposes the idea. I object to the exploitation of important cultural issues as partisan political tools, and it is exploitation if the issue being used is one none of the candidates have taken a position on.
So the OP is saying Bernie is bad because he's not pushing for reparations but Hillary is great because she's not pushing for reparations? Or is it that only Bernie must answer this, perhaps because he's Jewish?

It's a valid subject I could discuss all day, but how it relates to Bernie Sanders and why a post about Sanders is in GD instead of the Primary Bickering Department I am not really sure about. If it is not about Sanders but about his supporters, it's Meta. If it is about Sanders, it's primary. If it is about reparations, why all the snark about things unrelated to reparations?

[AllFieldsRequired]

66. Not even close, this isnt about Bernie, but his supporters. I said this

If Bernie's fans are right,

Bernie I am not worried about

[Starry Messenger]

64. I don't know what reparations had to do with Bernie.

Racism led to the economic theft from African-Americans, specifically. I don't know if lump sum payments are possible, although I would certainly be for it if it were, but there are certainly measures that we could take to specifically address the racist policies, like red-lining, that locked Blacks out of the middle-class and wealth accumulation.

[AllFieldsRequired]

68. AGain, I said the following

If Bernie's fans are right,

I am a Bernie Sanders fan and supporter, but many Bernie Sanders supporters here on DU have made the argument, repeatedly, that the economic issue and message deals with the race issue to a large extent. That by solving economic disparity we go a long ways in solving the race issue, they have said.

Many African Americans have repeatedly said no, it doesnt.

I believe they are right, that it doesnt.

But assuming for the momenty THEY were right, if his FANS were right, Not Bernie himself, then wouldnt it make sense at the outset to provide reparations?

Since economics solves many ills, as they say.

Just spit balling, but do you see where I came from there?

[Starry Messenger]

73. No, it's still pretty confusing.

I haven't seen many Sanders' fans who were supportive of the reparations concept, so if you were hoping to draw out the haters on that, you may have succeeded.

Most white Americans scream about the concept like the money was coming out of their personal wallets, actually. I don't think you've added any clarity to the topic with your framing.

[AllFieldsRequired]

74. I meant to show that if your typical Bernie supporter says economics is the main

problem, then surely providing reparations makes sense.

Since no decent person could deny they are due.

I suspected, however, many Bernie fans to NOT want to agree that we need reparations.

AGain, this is not about Bernie himself, only his supporters and mainly those here.

I guess I was attempting to show hypocrisy.....And I sure did get a whole lot of pushback as to the very idea of reparations.

Personally, I believe they are due and necessary before ANYONE else can go on about how they are being pushed out of this economy or society

[Starry Messenger]

78. Ok, I am on the train now.

I've been discussing this issue from a different direction, so I got mixed up.

The problem with many of the current economic reform proposals that only attack the issue of Wall Street and propose firming up the public funding programs we already have, is that this results in a trickle-down ideology of socialism, which I have objected to on a number of occasions in subforms, but normally haven't tackled out here.

Those reforms wouldn't get to the race-based economic disparities, which were in place before the New Deal, and still collect compound interest as the shortcomings roll on through in our history.

Reparations would be a New Better Deal, which would result in benefits for more of society too. Unfortunately pushback on the idea is pretty universal among whites, due to terrible education about race and economics in this country. I'm white, but I'm a woman, and I hear excuses for why economic programs that help men are the best and my folks will be helped "eventually," so I get suspicious of that line of reasoning for any other marginalized group too.

That still wouldn't get at issues like racist policing, etc.

[AllFieldsRequired]

80. Thanks...as to whites being anti reparations due to terrible education about race and

economics, I think most whites in America dont care what the history is, or the facts (in this regard), they are just opposed to it because that is their nature.

Cant say anymore than that.

[jwirr]

69. I think you should know that Native American's have taken

this issue to court and won reparations in many cases so we are kind of out of this discussion. There are also a lot of cases still pending in the courts.

[AllFieldsRequired]

71. If the majority of NA feel everything is OK now, then that would be their

position which I would respect.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. It's "hear, hear", first off.

Secondly, reparations are a non-starter, politically.

Surprising that some of the same hard-nosed political realists in thread who claim to have lined up behind the Clinton camp supposedly because practicality, havent pointed that out to you.

Hmmmmmm.

[AllFieldsRequired]

77. Of course it is, dont know what I was thinking...fixed

Non starter?

Seems kind of convenient .

[Warren DeMontague]

79. It's the truth.

As others noted, Ta-nahesi coates wrote a good piece on it, and i suspect that is where any actual discussions will get some traction- not as a concrete political proposal but more a philosophical argument to consider.


I do not believe - realism, again- you are going to see "the Sanders campaign take up the issue of reparations". Maybe try Hillary?

[AllFieldsRequired]

81. I doubt either will. But I thought if I used the logic of many Bernie fans here at DU

they would have to admit it was a good idea.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Hmmmm.

Interesting.

[struggle4progress]

86. It might be OK if you can propose good rules for tracing the money

Half my ancestors still lived in Europe at the time of the civil war

Of the rest, half lived in Pennsylvania and half in Virginia

None of my actual ancestors fought in the war

One of my unionist great-great-uncles died of tuberculosis (contracted in a southern POW camp) as he was walking back to his Pennsylvania home after Appomattox

On the Virginia side, the family originally lived not far from the West Virginia border. According to family lore, my great-grandfather was partly raised by a black man who sheltered him when my ancestors there had some serious problems in the late nineteenth century. Later the family moved west and remembered the move as a good thing

[struggle4progress]

87. The Welsh Marches

A. E. Housman, 1896

... Ages since the vanquished bled
Round my mother’s marriage-bed;
There the ravens feasted far
About the open house of war:

When Severn down to Buildwas ran
Coloured with the death of man,
Couched upon her brother’s grave
The Saxon got me on the slave ...

In my heart it has not died,
The war that sleeps on Severn side;
They cease not fighting, east and west,
On the marches of my breast ...

None will part us, none undo
The knot that makes one flesh of two,
Sick with hatred, sick with pain,
Strangling—When shall we be slain?

When shall I be dead and rid
Of the wrong my father did?
How long, how long, till spade and hearse
Put to sleep my mother’s curse?

http://www.bartleby.com/123/28.html

[TexasTowelie]

88. Locking thread.

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