An action oriented response to active shooters

[BarstowCowboy]

Today I was driving to go to dinner with my partner and kids, and there was a van in front of me with a 5.56 bumper sticker, you know the kind of sticker that looks like one of those European country ID stickers? My partner wondered out loud at its meaning. From my studies about high powered assault weaponry, I knew that it was referring to the NATO caliber 5.56, which is also the caliber of choice of many American spree killers, including the shooter at Sandy Hook and most recently at Roseberg. Earlier today, I was at a Whole Foods in Tempe and had the pleasure of shopping with a gentleman who decided to leave the house wearing a shirt that said "Range Time is the Best Time" and was adorned with an image of an automatic handgun. He was shopping by himself, so I assume he's a fully functional adult who probably dressed himself this morning, and is most likely aware that one of his brothers in arms decided to kill a bunch of people for no reason just a few days ago, and yet he chose to wear that shirt anyways. I find myself surrounded by such people here in the heart of "The Ammo Belt", sunny red state Arizona, and have for the last 15 years. Something about this most recent shooting is different though, and I honestly felt twinges of genuine panic today at both the grocery store as well as the restaurant. As I type this I'm at a skating rink in Chandler chaperoning a birthday party, but I am not really checked in completely because I find myself looking for telling bulges along people's belt line's, wondering if days from now people will be shaking their heads and wondering out loud at why some idiot decided to shoot up a skating rink in Arizona. Anyone else going through this? I want to do something besides complain, but I feel powerless in light of what (DIDN'T) happen after Sandy Hook. Can anyone think of something short of occupying Congress?

[shenmue]

1. Few months ago, there was an open carry guy

at the place where my Mom and I were having lunch.

Who was going to attack this guy at Steak n Shake?

Just seems paranoid to me.

Now, every time I go out, I take an extra look around.

[BarstowCowboy]

2. The irony

Usually when you ask one of those people why they have a gun they cite concerns about personal safety, and just about 100% of the time they're over 40, overweight and the greatest risk they're facing is that of a heart attack or diabetes, yet they go through life wearing their Army surplus outfits and acquiring their arsenals as if they live in some post-apocalyptic combat wonderland and only survive each day based on the strength of their tactical training. Hey, good luck shooting it out with those clogged arteries!!!

[Hoyt]

4. More than a few hope to be a hero, yet can't walk out of the house without a gun.

[GGJohn]

6. AAAnnnddd another one.

[GGJohn]

10. LOL.

Thank you.

[BarstowCowboy]

17. Thanks, that gave me an idea

The thing you said about leaving the house gave me an idea about an action we can take about this. I am going to start a separate thread, be on the lookout for #safeathome.

[Electric Monk]

5. It is funny what some people choose to worry about, and what not to worry about

(more 'toons to piss off gun nuts)

[Travis_0004]

11. Im not worried about open carry

Generally criminals keep a low profile and try to avoid unwanted attention. I see open carry and I generally aasume they are law enforcement. Whether they are or not, I dont really care.

[GGJohn]

3. Nope, no worries at all.

Going through life paranoid of firearm owners is no way to live.
After several combat tours in 3 different wars, I don't even bother to worry about death, I enjoy life and all it's benefits that it offers to me and my wife and extended family.
Here in the Flagstaff area, it's quite common to see people with firearms, yet I don't feel any threat when I have to drive into Flagstaff for supplies for our farm.

[BarstowCowboy]

7. Not everyone is a combat veteran

Do you think your experiences in combat have something to do with the way you feel about this topic? I'm not asking rhetorically, I wonder if I would feel differently if I had been in a dangerous line of work my whole adult life.

Also, do you feel the need to arm yourself as you go about your daily routine? If so, do you attribute that to your time in combat?

[GGJohn]

8. My combat experience has nothing to do with my view on firearms,

I was raised around firearms, was hunting by the time I was 10 yo, my dad was a strong supporter of gun rights and a combat vet himself, that's where my view comes from.

The only firearm I regularly carried in the Army was my personal sidearm, which was part of my survival kit in case I was shot down.
I was a chopper pilot, flying attack birds.

The only time I regularly arm myself is usually out in the fields where we have a bobcat, coyote and the occasional cougar problem trying to take our livestock.
If I travel to another state, not too frequently, both myself and my wife will carry our firearms with us, even though we know the odds of ever needing to use them are small.

[Travis_0004]

12. You sound paranoid

You probably keep a spare tire in your trunk too.

What is that for, I havent had a flat in over 100k miles.

[GGJohn]

13. And a fire extinguisher in my home.

Yeah, I'm paranoid.

[Travis_0004]

14. Yeah.

Dont tell Hoyt, but I have 2 fire extinguishers.

A small 2.5 lb on under the kitchen sink.

Plus a 10 lb one by the basement steps.

[GGJohn]

15. I promise your secret is safe with me.

[BarstowCowboy]

16. I was not raised with firearms

I am not comfortable with firearms, so I imagine I sound silly to you, but with urban and suburban living on the rise you probably understand that within a generation or two people who grow up the way you have are going to be oddities. I can understand how a revolver or perhaps a single shot rifle might be handy for a person such as yourself, but you should look at the tradeoff we're all having to make here so that people like you can have the guns you have. Because of the way the 2nd amendment has been interpreted, city folks like me have to go about our business alongside Ramboed out crabgrass commandos who have no legitimate need to be armed, and who occasionally snap and kill people who've done nothing more than left their homes to engage in what should be low risk activities. Now, I can imagine it's very exciting for you to go and shoot an animal and eat it, and I imagine it probably makes you feel rugged and independent to protect your family from predators like an old time frontier man, but look what it's costing the rest of us to protect your "gun tradition". Can you really say it's worth it? Aren't there steaks at the store? Can't you just call animal control and wait it out like we city folks do when there's a wild dog on the loose?

[GGJohn]

18. Ok, let me answer you point by point.

1.

I am not comfortable with firearms, so I imagine I sound silly to you, but with urban and suburban living on the rise you probably understand that within a generation or two people who grow up the way you have are going to be in the minority

No, I don't think it's silly, it's your opinon which you're entitled to.
I highly doubt that within a generation or two I will be in the minority, but, again, that's my opinion, you and I won't be around to see if you or I are correct.

2.

I can understand how a revolver or perhaps a single shot rifle might be handy for a person such as yourself, but you should look at the tradeoff we're all having to make here so that people like you can have the guns you have

I have revolvers along with semi auto handguns, I'm quite comfortable with owning them, and I enjoy target shooting with them.
A single shot rifle is impractical for me, when I have to shoot at a coyote, bobcat attacking my livestock, it often takes more than 1 shot to kill it, so I'll keep my AR-15 for varmints.

3.

Because of the way the 2nd amendment has been interpreted, city folks like me have to go about our business alongside Ramboed out crabgrass commandos who have no legitimate need to be armed, and who occasionally snap and kill people who've done nothing more than left their homes to engage in what should be low risk activities.

The SCOTUS has ruled in Heller v DC that the 2A is an individual right not connected to militia service, that's the law of the land now.
And who gets to decide who has a "legitimate need" to be armed?
Very few people snap and go on a shooting spree, there are almost always signs of someone with erratic behavior.

4.

Now, I can imagine it's very exciting for you to go and shoot an animal and eat it, and I imagine it probably makes you feel rugged and independent to protect your family from predators like an old time frontier man, but look what it's costing the rest of us to protect your "gun tradition".

No, it's not exciting for me or my wife to go and shoot our food, it's just the way it is, for us, it's a choice to eat healthier.
It doesn't make me feel rugged or independent, it makes me feel fortunate that I can provide health, wholesome meat to my family and those that are less fortunate than us.
What is my right to own firearms costing the rest of you? My firearms will never, god willing, harm another human being.

5.

Can you really say it's worth it? Aren't there steaks at the store? Can't you just call animal control and wait it out like we city folks do when there's a wild dog on the loose?

Yes, I can say it's really worth it. Have you ever seen the horrible conditions of factory farms that animals live in to supply most of the markets with your steaks? Hint: google factory farms for an idea of how those animals live.
Wait for an animal control officer for a predator attacking our livestock? Are you serious? What, are we supposed to tell the predator to stop and wait for an animal control officer to stop them?
It would take, at minimum, at least 60 minutes for a Sheriff's Deputy to arrive, if they did at all.
Nope, our here in the country, we're expected to defend our livestock ourselves.
I can tell by your questions that you really are a city person, you've obviously never lived in the country.

[BarstowCowboy]

20. One good point by point deserves another

No, I don't think it's silly, it's your opinion which you're entitled to.
I highly doubt that within a generation or two I will be in the minority, but, again, that's my opinion, you and I won't be around to see if you or I are correct.

Statistically speaking rural people have been in the minority since the 1920 census, but there are still about 1 in 5 Americans living in what's classified as rural areas.

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/37_urban_and_rural_population_and_by.html

This shows the trend line for rural living. Every census since 1790 has shown a decrease in the number of rural residents. Of course not all of this is due to rural people saying,"HOO DOGGY, they got dancin' girls and a picture show Dotty, let's git on in to dat der city now!" A lot of it has to do with the way the census now classifies an area as urban versus rural, but still, people are coming to live closer and closer to one another, which rules out keeping livestock, and blasting away at varmints and so on.

And who gets to decide who has a "legitimate need" to be armed?
Very few people snap and go on a shooting spree, there are almost always signs of someone with erratic behavior.

I can't argue with you, uh, yes, very few people do go on shooting sprees. Isn't it kind of a drag though, when they do go on shooting sprees? It's hardly comforting, in the aftermath of a shooting spree, to tell one of the family members of the victim of a shooting spree to, you know, buck up, because after all, not that many people go on shooting sprees, right? But, maybe you're right, there really aren't that many people going on shooting sprees, and usually they act erratic first, so I'll just take solace in all the people who DON'T go on shooting sprees, and whenever I see an erratic person I'll just whip out MY gun and take cover, yeah, that's a great idea.

No, it's not exciting for me or my wife to go and shoot our food, it's just the way it is, for us, it's a choice to eat healthier.
It doesn't make me feel rugged or independent, it makes me feel fortunate that I can provide health, wholesome meat to my family and those that are less fortunate than us.
What is my right to own firearms costing the rest of you? My firearms will never, god willing, harm another human being.

So, you get ALL you food from hunting? You live so far from the store that you're unable to get meat any other way? I've seen plenty of documentaries on factory farms, and like I said, I was at Whole Foods today, getting the good meat, not the crap meat they sell at Fry's. Somehow I was able to do it without a gun. Imagine that.

I didn't say that YOUR guns were costing the rest of us anything. As you astutely observed, most people don't go on shooting sprees. What I meant when I said what I said (in other words, in other words) is that the policy of letting just about anyone who wants a gun to have a gun means that we have shootings.

Murders.

Unjustifiable homicides.

Spree killings.

One offs here and there.

Accidental discharges.

Suicides that are FAR more successful than those attempted by other means.

Armed robberies.

Drive-bys.

Political assassinations.

Hunting accidents even sometimes, even with people like you, who are "raised with guns" and "well trained" and all that. Hell, even Dick Cheney himself messes up sometimes...

My point is that I don't value your ability to run off varmints so highly that I wouldn't gladly sacrifice it in exchange for a few less shootings.

tell the predator to stop and wait for an animal control officer to stop them?
It would take, at minimum, at least 60 minutes for a Sheriff's Deputy to arrive, if they did at all.
Nope, our here in the country, we're expected to defend our livestock ourselves.
I can tell by your questions that you really are a city person, you've obviously never lived in the country

And you see, this is what I don't think you understand...no one cares about your livestock. At least, not enough to say that the blanket right to bear arms to protect your livestock justifies all the trouble it causes. I don't care if you have cows that pump out strawberry milk...they're not as valuable as the lives of all the people killed by guns, and the sorrow felt when someone dies at the hands of a man with a gun. If one of your cows has to get eaten...I think we'll be okay. Build a better fence, or spray some "varmint be gone" on the cow's ass, or whatever.

You have no idea how pompous you sound when you say that we'll all just have to suck up some more gun violence out here in the city because, well, that's all part and parcel of making sure that you can live out your Green Acres fantasy out there on the range, and hell, if a bunch of (mostly minority males in the 15-24 year old age bracket) city folks die, hell, that's just too bad.

[Hoyt]

19. GG, America is not a combat zone, your military gun training really doesn't apply here.