Would-be Waffle House robber dies after having been shot by customer

[StrongBad]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by uppityperson (a host of the General Discussion forum).

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20151010/PC16/151019902

Just another senseless gun death.

[Human101948]

1. Public execution...that's the ticket!

No need for a trial! Save hard-earned taxpayer dollars!

[saturnsring]

3. the shooter should be sued for taking away the victim's right to trial

[NobodyHere]

13. Perhaps the "victim" should not have been committing armed robbbery

Shame that a 19 year old felt the want need to commit armed robbery though.

[saturnsring]

23. no he shouldnt have just like our citizens shouldnt be our executioners

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. Yes, but only one person is solely responsible for setting things in motion.

[niyad]

87. wow. . . .just. . . wow

[treestar]

142. armed with what?

I hope it was a gun, and that it was attempted to be used.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. Will you be footing legal expenses?

[Human101948]

31. If there's any basis for a lucrative suit, the lawyer will work on contingency...

There may be some sort of shield law in this case however.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. Shield law such as self-defense laws?

[GGJohn]

46. OMG!!!

Are you fucking serious?
The citizen, who was defending himself, should be sued for removing this POS armed robber's right to a trial?
Here's a thought, the POS armed robber shouldn't have been robbing the Waffle House in the first place, the POS armed robber shouldn't have pointed his weapon at someone, especially someone who's legally armed.
Your post has got to be the stupidest one so far this year.

[niyad]

88. where does it say that the robber shot at the citizen?

[GGJohn]

92. So the ARMED ROBBER pointing his weapon doesn't constitude a deadly threat?

Mr. Rivers should have waited for the ARMED ROBBER to shoot first?
Is that your position?

[niyad]

96. try again. NOWHERE does it say that the dead man aimed at the shooter, in the

linked article.

[GGJohn]

100. Try again.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20151012/PC16/151019801/1006&source=RSS

Rivers, 39, of North Charleston told police he took cover behind an SUV in the parking lot and ordered Davis to drop his weapon as he was coming out of the restaurant. Instead, Davis raised his gun and there was an exchange of gunfire. Rivers shot him once in the abdomen near the groin, according to the report.

[niyad]

102. try again. that was NOT in the originally linked article. what you are quoting is an update,

NOT the original.

[GGJohn]

105. Yes, an update.

So are you willing to admit that Mr. Rivers was defending himself from a deadly threat now?

[niyad]

110. forget it. my response was to what was in the ORIGINAL article.

and, having read the entire updated article, there are some serious questions about rivers' actions. looks like that family has a history of shooting people.

[GGJohn]

111. Just can't bring yourself to admit that this was a justifiable homicide can you.

That's ok, the police and the DA will do it for you.

[niyad]

112. based on what I read, NO. quite frankly, I have no faith in police or da's at all.

[GGJohn]

115. Well, the police and the patrons of the restaurant, you know,

those patrons that were victims of this violent criminal, or should I say, former violent criminal, disagree with you.

[niyad]

116. as is their right. just as it is MY right to see what I see, based on the reporting.

[GGJohn]

117. Yep, it's your right to have that opinion,

but legally, you're wrong about it not being a justifiable homicide.

[TipTok]

124. Sounds like they already did...

[Ghost in the Machine]

94. In an updated link here:

Kenneth Rivers was sitting in his car waiting on some food at a North Charleston Waffle House early Saturday when he saw a young man approach the building with a gun in his hand and a hoodie tied tight, according to 911 calls released Monday. He was on the phone with his brother as the restaurant was being robbed and some of the employees ran out the front door.
{snip}

Rivers, 39, of North Charleston told police he took cover behind an SUV in the parking lot and ordered Davis to drop his weapon as he was coming out of the restaurant. Instead, Davis raised his gun and there was an exchange of gunfire. Rivers shot him once in the abdomen near the groin, according to the report.

Police have not determined who fired the first shot.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20151012/PC16/151019801/1006&source=RSS

Much more at the link...

Peace,

Ghost

[niyad]

98. thank you. that was certainly NOT in the original article.

[Ghost in the Machine]

104. Glad to be some help... n/t

[Beaverhausen]

122. Rivers should have stayed in his car. The robber was leaving

Should let law enforcement take care of it.

[GGJohn]

126. He didn't did he?

Did he break any laws? The cops don't think so, and neither do the victims of this former violent criminal.
Bottom line is that this former violent criminal is responsible for his own demise, he engaged in a violent criminal activity, if he hadn't, he would still be breathing.

I won't fault someone who save his own life and most likely save future citizens from this former violent criminal.

[Yorktown]

129. No. The police represents the people.

I do not see why the people themselves would not enforce what we ask the police to enforce.

If you see a rape attempt, I hope you won't wait for the police and act by yourself.

[Ghost in the Machine]

136. Why? He is a licensed, armed guard, or did you not read that part? In most States, Licensed, armed

guards have the same responsibilities, and protections, as law enforcement officers. I don't see it as any different if it had been an off duty officer on the scene.

On a personal note, death is just a job hazard when you are a criminal, whether it be a burglar, rapist or armed robber. Why people fail to understand that is beyond my comprehension. When you decide to use a gun to rob, or otherwise terrorize other human beings, you are assuming the risk of being killed yourself. Just like this guy, who terrorized a restaurant full of people with a gun, he paid the price for it, for his own conscious choice made with his own free will. As a former gang member, I can tell you that there is a motto, which is "Live by the gun, Die by the gun", and EVERY DAY you tell yourself "today *could* be my last day, the day I die".

Nobody forced him to rob that restaurant and terrorize the customers and employees, that was HIS CHOICE. He was spotted entering the establishment, hoodie tied tight around his face and with a gun in his hand, by an off duty, licensed armed security guard. 911 was called 3 times. He was confronted while attempting to flee and given the option of giving up. He CHOSE to engage in a gun fight instead. He lost. End of story. He lived by the gun, and died by the gun.

I feel sorry for his family, who lost a son, brother, nephew, cousin, etc., but I feel worse for the people that he terrorized, then witnessed him getting killed. I would also bet dollars to doughnuts that this WASN'T his first robbery, either. I'm sure the Police Department will run ballistics tests to see if his gun was used in any unsolved shootings and/or murders. How will you feel if they find it HAS been used in a few other shootings and/or murders?

Again, I just can't comprehend the people who try to stick up for, and coddle, dangerous criminals. I can tell that we don't agree on this subject, but at least I am being civil, and trying to understand your point of view. Can you please try to enlighten me some? I am actually a very compassionate human being, but my compassion level goes way down for thieves and robbers, and completely bottoms out for rapists and pedophiles. I have NO compassion for the last two at all. They should be fed to lions, bears and/or alligators, IMHO.

Peace,

Ghost

[treestar]

156. Since he was a security guard

and like LEO, then everyone else is lucky. It could have gone worse if the defender wasn't very experienced.

The purpose of gun control is for the robber not to have a gun.

[Lizzie Poppet]

20. I know it's a cliche, but...

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

The guy pointed a gun at someone in the course of committing a felony crime. There is nothing remotely unreasonable about using force at that point.

[GGJohn]

45. Play stupid games,

win stupid prizes.
So you disapprove of self defense? You would rather a criminal have the benefit of the doubt when they point a firearm at someone?

[saturnsring]

2. 19 year old shot to death over 20 dollars

[GGJohn]

48. Wrong, he was shot to death because he pointed his gun at the wrong person,

namely a man who was legally armed.
He would still be alive if he, you know, hadn't been committing armed robbery.

[treestar]

143. That's not clear in the article

They only describe him as "armed."

[GGJohn]

147. Waffle House employees said he was armed with a semi auto handgun.

he exchanged gunfire with Mr. Rivers.

[Lizzie Poppet]

61. The 20 bucks was irrelevant.

He died because he threatened someone with a deadly weapon. He willingly (and stupidly) presented a person with what they reasonably believed was a kill-or-be-killed situation...and lost. My sympathy is for his family, not for him.

[Reter]

97. He would have killed at least 3 innocents by the time he was 30

n/t

[Initech]

101. Would have???? And you know this how?

[Codeine]

106. No, he was shot for threatening someone with a gun.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[Bonx]

4. He did point a gun at the guy who shot him

[hunter]

5. Two armed assholes equals a tragedy.

Yep.

[GGJohn]

50. "Two armed assholes equals a tragedy."

Why is the CHL holder an asshole?
He only shot after the POS armed robber pointed a gun at him.

[hunter]

62. Yeah, I'd like to live in a world full of moron vigilantes.

Two assholes shooting at each other.

I've been a bystander in situations like that.

Everyone with a gun thinks they're some kind of fucking hero, the cops, the gangsters, all of 'em.

They're assholes.

When my kids were small, my wife and I lived in a house with a bullet hole in through the front wall and out the back window, probably care of someone who was shooting at one of the previous occupants whose hobby was taking apart stolen cars in the back garage. (Hey, it was what we could afford, and not the worst neighborhood in our city.) The bullet holes had been patched over by the landlord, and not in a skillful way. The back window was patched with transparent packing tape.

I drive a car with a bullet hole in it. The car previous owner lived in one of those rougher neighborhoods.

I've been in rough situations, and there's not one where me having a gun might have improved the outcome. It's just that life's way too short to be carrying around a gun, looking for trouble, just to be some kind of moron hero. I don't need that kind of crap living in my head. I've got better things to think about.

[X_Digger]

65. I don't think you know the definition of vigilante. Free clue: Self-defense isn't. n/t

[hunter]

67. "Self Defense" is bullshit.

It's an especially bullshit reason to own a gun.

[X_Digger]

70. Okay, you're on my christmas list for a dictionary. *check*

I'll be sure to highlight Vigilante for you.

[hunter]

74. If someone wants you dead, they just walk up and shoot you.

And your last thought is probably

that hurts!!!

Or maybe you just get caught in the crossfire of morons fighting with guns.

Best not make anyone want you dead, or encourage gun fighting in places you live.

[X_Digger]

80. Ok, I'll also highlight Paranoia for you, too. And Projection. Any other "P"s while I'm at it? n/t

[GGJohn]

72. Oh, so cops don't carry a firearm for self defense?

The only BS here is your post.

[Codeine]

107. You're ridiculous.

Go play "More Liberal Than Thou" elsewhere.

[GGJohn]

69. So, in your world,

all CHL holders are asshole moron hero's?
Glad I don't live in your fantasy world.

[ileus]

56. Was there a second robber I didn't read about?

[hunter]

63. The guy who shot the robber is an asshole and a moron.

Piss on him and his gun.

[GGJohn]

73. LOL,

you've really jumped the shark.

[hunter]

76. What do you think of Zimmerman?

This fellow seems like a similar asshole, looking for trouble.

They'll probably find his body in a river someday with a bullet hole in it, a gift from another gun moron, or find him dead of a self-inflicted gunshot after he realizes what a shitty life he's made for himself.

Piss on him.

[GGJohn]

77. Unlike Trayvon Martin,

this POS armed robber was, you know, ARMED, he took his chances and lost, and maybe other victim's lives were saved in the future.

Like I said, you've really jumped the shark on this.

[hunter]

95. I've been threatened by armed people.

Two of my siblings have been threatened by armed people, one brother a couple of times. He worked in a bad neighborhood, near a military base, in a place that served alcohol to a rough crowd of off-duty military, hookers, and bikers, some who were all three at once.

My crazy unarmed mom has disarmed armed people. (She's a force in berserker mode. The kid's lucky he just lost his gun, and not his actual arm too.) My mom's mom had to be removed from her own house as a danger to herself and others. This was after my mom had taken my grandma's guns and destroyed them, except for my grandfather's deer rifle, which my brother has. My mom's family is wild homesteading west. My mom's cousin still owns the original homestead, a cattle ranch.

There are too many morons with guns. I include a lot of cops in that assessment too.

It's a fucking sad world when armed people are robbing the fucking Waffle House.

Who wants to live in a head space like that?

I've worked for two war vets who saw hideous things and did hideous things. They were happy to be home and not have to worry about guns.

The first vet I worked for was very active in Veterans for Peace and helped organize some of the larger protests against the useless war in Iraq.

There's one kid in my extended family who got messed up in Iraq. He wasn't the sort who wanted to shoot anyone, and he wasn't cut out to be a medic so they put him to work collecting bits and pieces of dead people. He's out of the military now because he started smoking pot. Now he drinks a lot of alcohol and smokes a lot of pot and is frequently unemployed.

[GGJohn]

109. What's this got to do with Mr. Rivers defending himself? eom.

[hunter]

123. He wasn't "defending himself." He was shooting a "bad guy."

He made a bad situation worse, made it more likely someone was going to get hurt.

He was waiting for a situation like this to occur so he could be some kind of moron hero. Otherwise he wouldn't be carrying around a gun.

[GGJohn]

127. So having a deadly weapon pointed at one's self and shooting the person pointing it at someone

in the commission of a violent criminal act isn't defending yourself?

Yep, you've REALLY jumped the shark on this issue.

And you have no clue as to why he chooses to carry a firearm, you're just speculating, and doing it very badly.

[hunter]

141. He chooses to carry a handgun. Case closed.

He's paranoid and he thinks someone is out to kill him, which is unlikely unless he's a drug dealer, a cop, or something else equally disreputable.

Or else he thinks he's some kind of Moron Hero.

Unless it's just a simple gun fetish, and he carries a gun as some kind of sex object. (That's why the Cocks Not Glocks campaign in Austin is so magnificent.)

So what say you?

I'd probably classify "Because I like my fucking guns!" in the sexual fetish category.

Of course it is possible he had a gun because he was planning to use it in a crime later. Maybe he's a bank robber or rapist who was offended that a mighty godly gun would be used for something so petty as robbing a Waffle House.

Nope, as much as I try, I can't see anything more than two assholes shooting guns in a public place, one who ended up dead.

That's just fucking sad and pathetic. Moron criminal meets moron hero wannabe.

[GGJohn]

152. LOL,

this is pure comedy gold.

[Yorktown]

130. Let's all let crimes be committed when we could stop them

Then let's blame the police because they were not on the spot.

Responsible citizenry in action..

[LeftinOH]

6. So- firing the weapon at the robber was the only way?

Wouldn't it have been enough to simply hold him there - and wait for the police.

[whatthehey]

7. While he's also pointing a gun at you and definitively criminal? What could go wrong.....

EDIT It's worth mentioning the customer in fact did ask him to drop his weapon. The robber tried shooting through a parked car instead.

[Bonx]

8. He could have shot the gun out of his hand and then karate chopped him

or something.

[whatthehey]

9. Ah yes; I forgot the Walker Texas Ranger documentaries.

[Lizzie Poppet]

19. Heh...good one.

Hey, if it works in bad TV shows, surely it works in real life!

[Fluothane]

10. He did try to hold him there

"The customer said he took out his gun as the suspect was leaving the restaurant and ordered him to drop his gun. The suspect raised the weapon, and the customer engaged him in fire. The customer's brother was on the phone with him when it happened. They disconnected and his brother called 911." http://www.wyff4.com/news/Waffle-House-customer-shoots-kills-armed-robbery-suspect/35795498

[SecularMotion]

24. "as the suspect was leaving the restaurant"

The customer should not have confronted the suspect and just let him leave. The police can pursue him.

[bluedigger]

38. "as he was leaving the restaurant"

So no one was in imminent threat of harm when Mr Do Good shot, apparently. He just took it upon himself to be judge, jury, and executioner, because he was armed. That is murder.

[treestar]

144. As long as that is the case, it is not bad

But then, note how much rarer this type of news story is than the one where the guy with the gun shoots a lot of people.

[GGJohn]

52. The POS armed robber was pointing a firearm at the customer,

what was he supposed to do?
Hope that the POS armed robber was going to drop his weapon and surrender?
That would be a good way to either get injured or killed.
The armed customer acted reasonable considering the circumstances.

[saturnsring]

58. he's supposed to let him go and get a plate number that was his responsibility not play policeman

[Snobblevitch]

64. Actually,

you are right. I don't have a CCW but in my state, an 8 hour class is required including range time. In the classroom part, much of the time is spent on the instructor explaining the world of shit you will be in if you pull your weapon, let alone fire it.

In this case, the CCW probably should not have attempted to engage the robber. However, if the perp later robbed someone else, a good chance of that I'd say, and he shot someone else, well, that's why I do not have much sympathy for the robber. His family, yes, him, not so much.

[treestar]

151. I was thinking that too

He definitely involved himself where he did not have to.

It could have ended a lot worse, with the suspect killing people he never would have otherwise. Risked his own life and that of the others.

[closeupready]

11. It was an armed robbery. That word, "armed", is useful here.

Zero sympathy for the guy who died.

[StrongBad]

12. ;)

[Comrade Grumpy]

14. Live by the gun, die by the gun. n/t

[lpbk2713]

15. Every day for the past ten years, Loretta there's been giving me a large black coffee.

The pistol packing customer was beginning to think his special day would never arrive.

[whatthehey]

17. You might want to ask Loretta if she would have preferred to take her chances with the armed robber

When he decided he didn't want to leave witnesses.

[Human101948]

33. Conjecture...and bad conjecture...

He was leaving the scene of the crime.

[CatWoman]

59. BWAH!!

[Kang Colby]

18. Good story.

A restaurant employee expressed gratitude for the customer’s action.

“He saved us, that’s what he did.”

Said an officer at the scene: “It says something about firearms ... for good people with firearms being in the right hands.”

While lawful armed defense occurs almost one thousand times per day according to the CDC, this story just helps prove the old adage, "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

For more news reports, check out Guns Save Lives: http://gunssavelives.net/browse-stories/

[Shrike47]

21. The robber was leaving when he was shot. The killer didn't save anybody.

[Kang Colby]

22. False. n/t

[Human101948]

25. did not see anything either way about your claim or the one you responded to...

Do you have a source for more info?

[Kang Colby]

27. I didn't bother to look it up initially. It's usually a safe bet

that if someone is advocating gun control they are telling a lie.

Rivers, 39, of North Charleston told police he took cover behind an SUV in the parking lot and ordered Davis to drop his weapon as he was coming out of the restaurant. Instead, Davis raised his gun and there was an exchange of gunfire. Rivers shot him once in the abdomen near the groin, according to the report.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20151012/PC16/151019801/1177/911-calls-provide-more-detail-about-fatal-waffle-house-shooting

[lpbk2713]

34. This is the second notch in Rivers' pistol grip.

From the same link noted above ...

Justin Rivers, 34, also shot a man to death in self-defense in March 2012, when he opened fire on what he perceived to be an attempted carjacker trying to break into his rental car at a Ladson Road traffic light. He then drove away, fearing continued assault, and called 911 about 2 miles from the shooting. No charges were filed.

Gawd save me from vigilante justice.

[Human101948]

35. Wonder what the truth behind that story was...

He sounds like another Zimmerman.

[lpbk2713]

36. I was wondering the same thing.

Notice how he worked in "security" ?


Zimmie was a self styled security type as well.

[oswaldactedalone]

139. Not true

From the article it says that Justin Rivers, 34, is the brother of the shooter in the Waffle House case. Kenneth Rivers, 39, was the shooter at the Waffle House. Justin Rivers was the one involved in the shooting in the carjacking situation in 2012. He was on the phone with his brother, Kenneth, when the armed robbery was taking place.

Justin Rivers said that he and his brother work security at a local nightclub.

[Kang Colby]

37. Were you there?

Rivers, 39, of North Charleston told police he took cover behind an SUV in the parking lot and ordered Davis to drop his weapon as he was coming out of the restaurant. Instead, Davis raised his gun and there was an exchange of gunfire.

[whatthehey]

26. because no armed robber ever returned to eliminate witnesses

who could put him in jail for decades?

Never got either emboldened by escaping or embittered by getting so little and decided he had to do it again and kill next time?

[Human101948]

30. Well, that sure justifies an execution...

You must be a very fearful person.

[GGJohn]

54. You keep saying it was an execution.

Maybe if that POS armed robber hadn't decided to commit an armed robbery, he would still be alive?

[whatthehey]

169. I'm an alive one - like the Waffle House employees thanks to this hero.

[Snobblevitch]

28. What about the people at his next armed robbery?

[CatWoman]

39. and "what" if the executoner shot a bystander as well?

[Snobblevitch]

41. Apparently,

this guy is proficient with his concealed weapon.

[pintobean]

42. The hero didn't shoot any bystanders.

The bystanders appear to be just fine with what happened.

[GGJohn]

55. But he didn't did he.

It was a good DGU and I very seriously doubt that the customer will face any charges.

[CatWoman]

60. whoa there sunshine

I didn't start the fire.

I answered a hypothetical WITH a hypothetical.

calm the fuck down.

[GGJohn]

66. I am calm, just disgusted at some of the comments here blaming the customer

who defended himself.
Not you, but a couple here did.

[Snow Leopard]

32. Good job

Another drain on society taken care of. Over his lifetime would probably have cost society hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[GGJohn]

44. Another senseless firearm death?

That POS armed robber pointed a gun at the man who had a concealed carry license, he brought this on himself, the POS is the only one responsible for his death.

[StrongBad]

47. ;)

[GGJohn]

49. WTH does that mean?

And can you prove I'm incorrect?

[Electric Monk]

51. It means they've been trolling the entire time, and actually believe it was a good dgu. nt

[GGJohn]

53. So why don't they say so?

I get the feeling that you might believe it was a good DGU, hope I'm correct.

[Throd]

57. One of the occupational hazards of Armed Robber is that you might get shot.

This guy started the chain of events that ended in his own death.

[name not needed]

68. Oh well.

[Lancero]

71. Not his first 'self-defense btw...

One intresting thing of note - The robber didn't use his gun to kill anyone inside the building, and was running away when Rivers decided to 'intervene'.

Had Rivers done nothing, no one would have died.

[GGJohn]

75. Except maybe the POS armed robber's next victim.

I have zero sympathy for the perp, he brought about his own demise, that's the occupational hazard for an armed robber.

[CatWoman]

78. enjoy!!!

[GGJohn]

79. How is this even related to this DGU? eom.

[Lancero]

81. Funny - the numbers say diffrient.

The robber killed 0 people.

Rivers, 2.

Wonder when he'll put it up to 3?

If Rivers was defending himself then I'd say he did the correct thing - But he wasn't. The robber was running away, when he decided to shout out, while likely pointing his own gun right at him, and further agitate him.

You know something funny? From where Rivers was 'defending' himself, his shots could have easily stuck people inside the building. He not only put himself at risk, but everyone left inside the restaurant with his stunt. The article doesn't mention the robber using his weapon inside the building either, so those three bullet holes in the windows were most likely compliments of Rivers gun.

[GGJohn]

82. And Rivers may very well have saved some future victim's life.

The bottom line is that the POS ARMED ROBBER, yes, a criminal committing a violent criminal act, is wholly responsible for his demise, if he hadn't been committing ARMED ROBBERY, which is a very violent crime, he would still be breathing.

Do you agree that if he hadn't been committing a violent crime, he would still be alive?

[Lancero]

83. Do you agree that if Rivers didn't agitate the situiation, no one would have died?

With this stunt, Rivers very well could have killed a innocent bystander.

Do you agree that Rivers actions - shooting into the restaurant - put other lives at risk?

That said, the answer to your question is yes - So now, answer mine.

[GGJohn]

85. No, I don't believe he agitated the situation, if the ARMED ROBBER hadn't chosen

a career as a criminal, then he would still be alive.

Even the patrons at the restaurant applauded his actions, so they obviously didn't feel in danger by Rivers actions.

[Lancero]

86. And if River ended up injuring, or killing, someone inside the building with his stray shots?

Would he still be deserving of applause?

This is my entire point - He didn't THINK of who else he could have hit when he decided to force a confrontation instead of staying back.

If the robber came out shooting at him, then I'd agree that Rivers did the right thing in shooting back - But it's hard to argue self-defense when you are the one who forced the confrontation, and when your actions place other people at risk.

[GGJohn]

89. Your point is irrelevant,

he didn't and the patrons applauded his actions.

Again, the bottom line is that the ARMED ROBBER would still be breathing if he hadn't chosen a career in crime, and violent crime at that.

[Lancero]

90. My point is just as relevant as your 'He might have saved someone else's life' point.

[GGJohn]

91. But he didn't did he?

And the restaurant patrons applauded him for his actions.

[Lancero]

103. He didn't save anyone like you're arguing either.

[GGJohn]

113. Mr. Rivers and the patrons of the restaurant disagree with you,

you know, those that were actually there and were the victims of this violent criminal, or should I say, former violent criminal.

[Lancero]

120. But the fact remains that he didn't save anyone.

Feelings aside, Rivers didn't enter the building when the robbery was in progress to save anyone inside, and the robber was retreating from the scene.

So, who did he save?

[GGJohn]

121. Oh, I would think that when the former violent criminal

pointed his weapon at Mr. Rivers, Mr. Rivers was saving himself.
And I would say that he most likely save future victims of this former violent criminal.

[Lancero]

125. Except Rivers put his own life at risk when HE decided to force a confrontation

Remember, the robber was retreating before he shouted out to him. It wasn't a case of the robber coming out gun blazing, shooting everything he saw like some people want to say it was. He was in the process of leaving the premises, and was no longer a risk to ANYONE there. In fact, the only risk to other people occurred when Rivers starting shooting at the robber, which meant that his missed shots were going INTO the restaurant.

And as I said before - What if's are just as valid as what coulds. So if you say my point about his actions potentially putting the people inside the restaurant at risk is invalid, then your argument that 'well, he might have saved some unnamed person in the future, maybe, possibly' is the same.

This is my entire point - One that you can't, or more likely refuse, to see - That Rivers placed everyone left inside the building at risk when he started shooting into it.

[GGJohn]

132. Uhhh, cops don't know yet who shot first,

And cops haven't said who's rounds went into the restaurant.
Again, the bottom line is that there would have been no shooting, the former violent criminal would still be alive if he hadn't chosen to be a violent criminal.
Mr. Rivers was defending himself against a violent criminal who had already demonstrated that he was willing to use a deadly weapon in the commission of a violent crime.

[Lancero]

133. As I said - Refuse to see.

[GGJohn]

134. As you do also. eom.

[Lancero]

137. Something else you refused to see, but I DID agree with your point earlier.

[LisaL]

149. Well, if there was exchange of gun fire, then presumably he saved himself.

Which he has a right to do.

[Lancero]

167. Except the only reason a exchange of gunfire occured was because he decided to force a confrontation

The robber was leaving, and Rivers decided to hide behind his car door, arm himself, and shout out to to him. He forced a confrontation with the robber, which resulted into a number of shots going into the building - A action that placed EVERYONE left inside at risk of harm or death.

He made the choice to put his own life at risk, had he not forced a confrontation then it wouldn't have been. He made the choice that could have killed people inside the building.

People want to believe the NRA kool-aid about how more good guys with guns will end gun crime - And people are slowing making him into an example of that. But so many people are willing to overlook the fact that Rivers risked other people lives with his choices and that - from all the currently revealed information anyway - had he stood back then no one's lives would have been at risk.

[LisaL]

173. He is a security guard.

His choice was to stop the robber. Robber could have dropped his weapon and stopped.

[Beaverhausen]

171. like Zimmerman saved himself after staring the fight with Trayvon Martin?

Is that what you are saying? the shooter engaged the robber first. He made himself judge, jury and executioner.

[LisaL]

153. Doesn't he count? Apparently there was exchange of gun fire, so the robber was presumably

shooting at him as well.

[Yorktown]

131. Looks to me an armed robbery already was a pretty agitated situation

[Reter]

99. "Had Rivers done nothing, no one would have died"

Except all the others the robber would have killed by the time he was 30.

[Beaverhausen]

170. Seriously? Just killing someone for what they 'might' do someday?

That's not how it works here. People, however evil they are, should be given a fair trial before the sentence is carried out.

We don't preemptively execute people for what they 'might' do someday.

[treestar]

146. Nobody in the thread seems clear on what happened

It appears the suspect did raise a gun and point it. Or that is one of the alleged facts.

[pintobean]

150. This article is clearer and more up to date

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20151012/PC16/151019801

[treestar]

155. I wonder if they can figure out who fired the first shot

from other than the statement of Rivers.

[pintobean]

157. It doesn't matter.

[treestar]

158. Whoever wrote the article seems to think there is an issue

regarding that.

[pintobean]

159. "Police have not determined who fired the first shot."

is nothing more than a statement of fact. It doesn't suggest the reporter is thinking there's any issue with that fact.

[treestar]

161. Sounds like they may wish to determine that

or maybe they are never going to determine that?

[pintobean]

165. Sounds to me like they answered a question.

Unless there's video, all they have to go on are the statements of the shooter and witnesses. They'll never know for sure. Going by what they do know, it doesn't matter.

[lindysalsagal]

84. Thank goodness. Now all of our waffles are safe.

What kind of world would it be if anyone could walk in off the street and steal waffels?

Let's shoot em all!

That was the NRA talking, not me.

[Deadshot]

93. This almost sounds like the first episode of "Fargo" this season on FX.

BTW, how does the guy who killed the robber sleep at night? This is the second person he has killed.

[Solomon]

119. Sadly he telling himself he had a right to kill those guys just like the people on this

thread are doing.

[Reter]

118. The armed robber was 19 year old Joshua Jermaine Davis

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/customer-fatally-shoots-robber-charleston-waffle-house-article-1.2393200

Davis' Facebook page has several pictures of him posing with a handgun. Four days before the shooting, he posted a picture of what appears to be a police car and wrote, "We see Ya n----."

[pintobean]

138. He's one of those pics

[Skittles]

140. GUN HUMPER

[Beaverhausen]

174. So he deserved to be killed? Is that what you are saying?

I think you might be in the wrong place.

[LittleBlue]

128. Good

The robber violated the rights of everyone in that waffle house. No sympathy for anyone but his mother, whose pain is solely the responsibility of her son.

[Ex Lurker]

135. The posters claiming the shooter had no right to self defense are every bit as irrational

as the Freepers who claim that more guns will solve every problem. Two sides of the same coin.

[Beaverhausen]

175. The shooter decided he was the judge, jury and executioner.

Who point the gun at who first? Do you know?

[DrDan]

145. who appointed this customer as judge, jury and executioner?

[Throd]

160. The armed robber who started the sequence of events.

If you point a gun at another armed person they might shoot you.

[ileus]

148. Sad to see events like this, imagine the emotions the shooter must endure now.

[StrongBad]

166. Like "Thank God Im not dead?"

Or maybe "Thanks to me some worthless trash can't harm anyone in the future"?

[B Calm]

154. It really is turning into the old west.

[Rex]

162. Seriously, rushing in to rob a place at gunpoint ain't what it use to be!

Now you can get killed! Probably best not to rob a place at gunpoint, since you never know now who is packing heat!

[Erose999]

168. Who robs a WaHo? That's THE most likely place for one to find a LEO between midnight and 6am.

[LisaL]

172. I guess this dude decided to take his chances and lost.

[uppityperson]

176. Locking per this part of Skinner's pinned thread about what can be posted in GD.

Local stories about gun crime and "gun porn" threads showing pictures of guns or discussing the merits of various firearms are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted in the Gun Control and RKBA Group.