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Wed Oct 28, 2015, 01:42 PM

 

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Arrow 60 replies Author Time Post
Reply Post removed (Original post)
Post removed Oct 2015 OP
Bluenorthwest Oct 2015 #1
Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #3
jonno99 Oct 2015 #5
Spider Jerusalem Oct 2015 #6
Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #12
LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #16
Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #59
demmiblue Oct 2015 #2
Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #4
LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #15
LeftyMom Oct 2015 #7
KamaAina Oct 2015 #8
Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #13
LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #17
Lordquinton Oct 2015 #23
frizzled Oct 2015 #9
yardwork Oct 2015 #10
Monk06 Oct 2015 #20
joeybee12 Oct 2015 #25
Monk06 Oct 2015 #28
joeybee12 Oct 2015 #29
Monk06 Oct 2015 #35
stevenleser Oct 2015 #44
Monk06 Oct 2015 #48
stevenleser Oct 2015 #49
LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #50
yardwork Oct 2015 #30
LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #32
Monk06 Oct 2015 #37
stevenleser Oct 2015 #45
LeftyMom Oct 2015 #41
Monk06 Oct 2015 #43
kelliekat44 Oct 2015 #24
Skittles Oct 2015 #55
LeftyMom Oct 2015 #11
LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #18
LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #14
Lordquinton Oct 2015 #21
Major Nikon Oct 2015 #27
beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #34
Starry Messenger Oct 2015 #36
LexVegas Oct 2015 #40
bullwinkle428 Oct 2015 #42
Agschmid Oct 2015 #46
RedCappedBandit Oct 2015 #56
Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #57
Goblinmonger Oct 2015 #19
stevenleser Oct 2015 #47
joeybee12 Oct 2015 #22
Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #26
hifiguy Oct 2015 #31
Skittles Oct 2015 #54
gollygee Oct 2015 #33
Lordquinton Oct 2015 #51
Starry Messenger Oct 2015 #38
LexVegas Oct 2015 #39
Gormy Cuss Oct 2015 #52
Skittles Oct 2015 #53
stevenleser Oct 2015 #58
ismnotwasm Oct 2015 #60

Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 01:55 PM

1. Greer is incorrect and an atavistic bigot. That's an opinion, not a prohibition.

 

nt

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 02:02 PM

3. Maybe. Should Cardiff students be able to hear her views?

 

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #3)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 02:31 PM

5. +1 I have zero patience with those who wear "being offended" as a badge of honor,

and so seek to stifle every opinion but their own.

What does it say about the strength of one's convictions if the mere hearing of a dissenting opinion - puts them in a tailspin?

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #3)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 03:10 PM

6. Would you make the same argument about a virulent racist or homophobe?

 

Or a Holocaust denier? If Cardiff University had invited, say, David Irving, and the university's Jewish students protested the invitation of a Holocaust denier, would you agree with them, or not? It's interesting to see how some forms of bigotry are more acceptable than others.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #6)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 05:05 PM

12. I think universities are places to exchange views and perspectives.

 

I would have no problem with students protesting a speaker selection, but I wouldn't think too highly of a university administration that let itself be bullied into censoring speakers.

And if it's students doing the speaker selection, well, that's their choice.

As for nasty folks, let them speak, and let their own words hang them.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 06:45 PM

16. So should they allow the KKK to give rallies there?

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=indigo]Of course not, tax payers should not ever be forced to in anyway help promote or give a platform for bigots to promote hate.[/font]

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:54 PM

59. Yeah, you're wrong.

Universities are first and foremost centers of learning. They are as obligated to fact as they are to intellectual freedom, and they suffer no compunction to hand a podium and a microphone to just any asshole with an opinion.

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 02:00 PM

2. New level needed: MIRT300. n/t

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #2)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 02:24 PM

4. Nice example of the case the OP is making.

 

Nuke the poster for posting something "offensive."

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #4)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 06:41 PM

15. We nuke people for being racist so why not nuke a transphobe?

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=indigo]Oh yeah...some people on DU doesn't give 2 shits about trans right[/font]

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 03:31 PM

7. Oh my goodness, what a pile of crap. I hardly know where to start.

First off, let's remember that whether or not one has free speech and whether one's speech constitutes a good use of a limited budget for hiring guest speakers are two very different questions. Greer has free speech: her views are well known and widely published.

Second, let's be clear that the author of the quoted piece is herself a TERF and her agenda is clear in the piece. TERFs are engaged in some seriously fucked up behavior toward trans people, including organized campaigns of outing and workplace harassment. The author is very much an involved party and that should be known in discussing her piece.

Third, comparing canceling a speech to totalitarian thought control is insanity. There are plenty of other avenues for students at Cardiff to hear or read Greer. Her books are in the library and on Amazon, a search for her name on youtube brings up over six thousand videos, no doubt a combination of video of her appearances and of others discussing her views. We live in a society where trans people face horrific violence and discrimination, Greer's transphobia isn't excluded from the discussion, it's the background noise against which others try to raise their voices and be heard.

Fourth, and this is most important: Greer's views on gender are demonstrably wrong. We know that the sense of gender is innate both because trans and non-binary people tell us their experiences, but also because case studies like the John/Joan case tell us so. Her ideas are based on science about gender that is four decades out of date. Wasting students time with her bullshit views on gender makes as much sense as wasting it on Lysenkoism, except that it's actually worse because transphobia has real world consequences and a body count attached.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #7)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 03:50 PM

8. For the record, TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

 

I had to Google it. Exhibit A would be the organizers of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, which banned transwomen from attending through most of its recently concluded existence.

edit: So might this be described as a TERF war?

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 05:06 PM

13. TERF war. Heh.

 

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 06:48 PM

17. But this ain't their TERF!

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=indigo]Besides, TERFS are not real feminists. They are just bigots trying to hide behind feminism to keep people for calling them what they are.

Transphobic assholes.

Real feminist support trans and human rights. Terfs are an insult to all real feminists!!![/font]

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:28 PM

23. They go Hand in Hand with SWERF

Sex Worker Exclusive Radical Feminist. They exclude sex workers from any kind of liberation movement, which ironically leaves the entire sex work trade in the hands of men, instead of helping women empower themselves to take charge.

It's lovely to see people go to town when SWERF and TERF is on the menu

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #7)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 04:49 PM

9. No. This is leftwing biology denial and pseudoscience.

 

It's a valid criticism to say there's concern that trans people have no biological evidence of their gender identity and there is good reason to believe that there is some deep unexplainable need to reshape themselves to gender norms.

As a gay man, I don't accept that "transphobia" is a useful word, or that it's comparable to homophobia. When people say "transphobia" they usually mean simple common sense skepticism. Just because a man says he is a woman doesn't make him one, and doesn't rate comparison with anti-gay hatred.

The fact men and women are pure biological categories implies NOTHING about the way men and women can or should behave. As I said, male and female are simple facts about a person. We SHOULD be fighting stereotypes about what it means to be male and female, and as a gay man, that's intrinsically bound to ending homophobia.

LGB activism [alongside classic feminism] is about expanding and re-defining concepts of gender; but transgender activism is about re-asserting and codifying traditional gender.


Second, let's be clear that the author of the quoted piece is herself a TERF and her agenda is clear in the piece. TERFs are engaged in some seriously fucked up behavior toward trans people


When you look at what the trans activists are saying online, it's nothing but vitriol and death threats, especially towards women. The word "TERF" is a slur. Online, nothing but thousands of the vilest kind of threats to "TERFS". To women, not to men who actually are violent to transgenders.



Come on now: let’s be real. Who’s the one inciting violence?

Never in the history of social movements has there been such public and casual calls to kill other humans as there is with Trans.

Greer's views on gender are demonstrably wrong. We know that the sense of gender is innate both because trans and non-binary people tell us their experiences


This is neurobabble and non-science. There is no science I'm aware of that proves "gender identity" has an objective existence. I am qualified in science, and I've looked into it. "Gender identity" is a supernatural claim. All the "brain studies" that get trotted out time and again simply do not prove otherwise. The brain is a flexible organ, and differences between men and women can be purely down to socialization. Moreover, gender identity disorder is diagnosed on subjective criteria.

We don't have the faintest idea in what way homosexuality, love of music, or preference for chocolate icre cream manifests in the head, and we're supposed to believe we have solid proof that "gender" exists and where it is localized in the brain, separately to biological sex? Come on, that simply isn't credible.

I find it bewildering that women fought so hard against the notion that women and men are somehow inherently different in ways that matter, who now support this claim when transgenders make it! It's just scientific sexism.

The John/Joan case does not prove otherwise; nothing about a single person can prove any general case, let alone a child who was sexually abused by Mengele-like psychiatrists. Mutilating a boy who then says he is not a girl does not prove that boys who claim to be female are ever female, let alone always female.

This is a bewildering form of science denial. It's a left-wing version of creationism.



We are supposed to believe that Bruce Jenner who is the biological father of 6 children by 3 different wives is magically and mysteriously just like intersex people because of his special “lady brain”. This is bullshit and people know it.

We’re told “gender is not sex” like a mantra bereft of enlightenment. Well, what is gender? They never answer. Where did it come from? They never answer. Reality is that male/female sex dimorphism is how mammals reproduce. Define gender, I ask.

Gender is a socially constructed hierarchy of sex based norms imposed onto bodies. There. That wasn’t difficult, was it?

Now, it’s pretty obvious that such is absurd immaterialism. “Inner, transcendental gender essence” can’t hold under scrutiny, according to any understanding of self and subjectivity.

Transgenderists well know this.

So, to protect this essentialism, transgenderists bully anyone — women or transsexuals in particular — who know females (women) and male transwomen have differences. So that, recently, an American professor sought to ban the word female from the classroom, since it might hurt male feelings.

I kid you not: Biology is now considered offensive.


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Response to frizzled (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 04:57 PM

10. Why does this matter so much to you?

Your obsession with this reminds me of Linda Harvey's views about gay folk. I'm a lesbian and it's fine with me for people to say they are female, male, intersex, whatever, it's none of my business.

You have a right to your opinion and so does Germaine Greer. And students have a right to decide which speakers to hire. Or not.

Good grief.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #10)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:23 PM

20. It's a short, philosophically sound, well reasoned argument. What makes it obsessional?

My ex brother in law is trans. I had no idea he was LGBT until two years ago and I've known him for 35 years. Let me make that clear. I had no idea he was gay let alone trans.

He came out to me by opening his front door one day in a very odd looking denim mini skirt outfit. My first impression was who is this person, not why is my brother in law dressed up like a woman?

Over two years I fully supported his transition until it became clear he wasn't transitioning. The fact is he is clinically diagnosed as bipolar with narcissistic personality disorder.

Notice I said he because other than external appearance there is nothing in his behaviour, speach or interests that is remotely feminine. For most of the thirty years I have known him he was a heavy equipment operator, large excavators and surface graders and in his youth he had a reputation as a formidable bar fighter.

This was during the seventies and eighties when there were no women in that profession so I'm not being sexist regarding women's employment. I'm just stating an historical fact about how my BIL gender identified most of the years I have known him.

When he came out he immediately breast implants but has chosen not to have genital surgury. So my view is that he is a gay man who prefers to have sex with men as a woman.

I think poster frizzled has legitimate misgivings about whether trans identity is an authentic identity or a style of sexuality like BDSM or Latex or other types of role play.

Maybe Greer is right and women's rights should be the exclusive issue of persons who are biologically female.

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Response to Monk06 (Reply #20)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:29 PM

25. It's not short and it's far from philsophoically sound...it's garbage...nt

 

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #25)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:46 PM

28. Well you are correct in saying it is not, "philsophoically sound", (sorry couldn't resist lol) Your

nt response however indicates you are unwilling to contest poster frizzled in any serious way. So your opinion of the soundness of the poster's argument doesn't carry much weight.

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Response to Monk06 (Reply #28)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:52 PM

29. The whole thing is crap...

 

One online poster is an example that transgenders and their allies are inciting violence? You think that make his case...ridiculous. And I don't buy what you posted, not one word...

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #29)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:34 PM

35. Not buying something is not arguing against it. It's Crap is not a counter arguement. The issue

at hand is what Germaine Greer has said and it is a political view that is exclusive not inclusive in an important way.

What she is saying is the that Feminism is the exclusive province of women and that men have no place in setting the terms of feminist debate. She excludes trans persons as men who are not genetically female as part of a Feminist political constituency regardless of their professed feelings and any surgical alterations or hormonal therapy they undergo.

Excluding men from discussion of women's issues is a trop of first wave feminism. It is unfortunate for men who are sympathetic to the Feminist movement but that's what evolved out of the debates in the 70s and 80s and formed the ideas of Adrian Piper and Griselda Pollock.

In the eighties Andrea Dworkin pushed that view to the point of a radical sexual pessimism which was a dead end.

In response modern identity politics evolved from Gay rights to LGBT rights to LGBTTQQIAAP rights. It is unclear, in a political context, how useful or even coprehensible this inflation in terminology is outside of Cultural Studies departments in a small number of Universities.

It seems to be evolving into an esoteric micro culture with no wider purchase on the public imagination

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Response to Monk06 (Reply #35)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:07 PM

44. Your demand for a counter argument requires the original argument to be worth something.

 

No bigoted argument is worth anything.

Entire books like "The Bell Curve" have been written to support bigoted point of views.

They do not require lengthy essays to disprove. Bigotry automatically de-legitimizes itself and anyone promoting it.


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Response to stevenleser (Reply #44)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:23 PM

48. Your refusal to provide a counter argument is in fact an argument. Unfortunately, an Ad Hominem

argument directed through me toward poster #9.

The other three sentences are instances of informal fallacies.

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Response to Monk06 (Reply #48)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:23 PM

49. Nope. Bigotry is automatically self-de-legitimizing. No explanation is needed. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #49)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:26 PM

50. +infinity (nt)

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Response to Monk06 (Reply #20)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:15 PM

30. What an awful post. Truly.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #30)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:27 PM

32. It is a sickening post filled with tons of transphobic remarks and stereotypes nt

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Response to yardwork (Reply #30)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:44 PM

37. Another person who dismisses a serious and sincere argument without deigning to comment. I

guess a serious discussion on this topic is just not possible here

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Response to Monk06 (Reply #37)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:07 PM

45. See my #44. nt

 

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Response to Monk06 (Reply #20)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:19 PM

41. It seems like you're a little unclear on a few basic concepts here.

First: Gender identity and orientation are separate. The former is how your acquaintance views herself (I'm using that pronoun since you've indicated that's how she identifies) and the latter is who she finds romantically or sexually attractive. The two are unrelated. If she identifies as female and has sex with men she's not gay.

Second: Your aquaintance's genitals aren't your business. Many trans people don't to surgery at all or only do top surgery (including the vast majority of trans men) for reasons related to the enormous expense, functionality, preserving their fertility or a simple lack of desire to do so.

Third: It sounds like your acquaintance may have been overcompensating prior to her transition and possibly had a substance abuse issue that resulted in the barfights and other acting out? These things don't mean she's not trans. They don't mean she's not female either: women do physical shit and get in fights too.

Fourth: There is existing language to describe fetishized crossdressing. That's transvestitism. It's typically a part time recreational activity, yes. Transsexuality is a full-time gender identity, not a sexualized behavior. It's an entirely different phenomenon.

Fifth: Greer's ideas about excluding biological women are troublesome. Many women have hormonal conditions (PCOS being the most common) that result in hormone profiles close to those of biological men. Many women have had surgeries that remove indicators of female biology. A small percentage of women have intersex conditions that mean they're not genetically XX, and often they don't know until they try to conceive and can't. A biological definition of womanhood is reductive and excludes a hell of a lot of women, no matter how you draw that line, even if you set trans people aside entirely.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #41)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:00 PM

43. Well I have had these concepts explained to me before on these sorts of threads. I am not convinced

that the bifurcation of gender and orientation and the identity inflation will bear much fruit in the long run. Identity inflation, as I referred to it, has led to the acronym LGBTTQQIAAP and one wonders when this expansion will effectively end and what useful purpose it serves.

The human imagination is infinite and there is no limit to the number of new identities and orientations that can be imagined. However that does not mean that society is required to recognize their importance other than for sociological discussion and I definitely question whether society has the political and financial capital to accommodate the needs of every identity and orientation that evolves out of the gender studies movement.

I have never met Germaine Greer but I have met and spoken with Griselda Pollock and she shares the same views, derisively called TERF bigotry here, as Greer.

The constituency that Greer and Pollock represent is Heterosexual and Gay women of all races in terms of their rights and relations with a society that is still almost universally controlled by white men.

They see Trans persons as an example of men, albeit men identifying as female, insinuating themselves in general debate on the fate of biological women in a male dominated world. That is my understanding of how they view Feminism in a political context.

Their resentment comes from the attempt by third wavers to de-historicise Feminism at the expense of what they view as sociological esoterica with no useful political function,

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Response to yardwork (Reply #10)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:29 PM

24. Right on! nt

 

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Response to yardwork (Reply #10)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:04 PM

55. THANK YOU

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Response to frizzled (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 05:03 PM

11. Wait a minute.

We know that transgender people are at enormously escalated risk of rape and of murder. Those are statistical facts, they are not open to dispute, you can find them from any number of reputable sources including government statistics. The risks are even higher for transgender women of color, because intersectionality is a thing. To try to flip that reality because you can cite one twitter account threatening TERFs? That's nonsense and it's not even worthy of the electrons you devoted to it.

"Male transwomen" are not a thing. It's like saying "apple bananas," This is why TERF ideology is offensive and dangerous: it denies the lived experience and the very reality of transpeople's lives. It attempts to create a vision of transwomen in particular as dangerous imposters intruding on female spaces for some vague threatening reason. The reality is that there's no threat to women in general from transwomen in specific, but there is a very real threat to transwomen when they are excluded from female spaces (bathrooms, etc) and forced into male spaces. The real world consequences of this ideology are the rape and murder of transwomen.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #11)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 06:49 PM

18. +infinity (nt)

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Response to frizzled (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 06:37 PM

14. Your terf biology is full of crap, is denialism, and the real pseudoscience

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]It has been shown repeatedly that transsexuals do indeed have transgendered brains. The most famous study being Zhou:[/font]

https://pure.knaw.nl/portal/files/515234/15106_285_swaab.pdf

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Further, studies of intersex children who were surgically forced into one gender as infants confirms this. Most notably, the case of David Reimer.[/font]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]To claim otherwise is denialism.[/font]

As a gay man, I don't accept that "transphobia" is a useful word, or that it's comparable to homophobia. When people say "transphobia" they usually mean simple common sense skepticism. Just because a man says he is a woman doesn't make him one, and doesn't rate comparison with anti-gay hatred.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]It is a useful word, and just because you are gay doesn't mean you can't be a transphobe. And your skepticism is on the level of climate change skepticism....in that it is not skepticism at all, but denialism. Yes it does make them one, and not only does it compare perfectly, anti-trans hate is even more extreme. The majority of anti-LGBTQ hate crimes target the transgender.[/font]

The fact men and women are pure biological categories implies NOTHING about the way men and women can or should behave. As I said, male and female are simple facts about a person. We SHOULD be fighting stereotypes about what it means to be male and female, and as a gay man, that's intrinsically bound to ending homophobia.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]First off, no men and women are not pure biological categories. If you understood biology you would know they make no such claim. Rather, biology breaks things into genotype and phenotype, and knows that one can have a male genotype but a female phenotype and that there are many cases where the phenotype or genotype are abnormal. CAIS women have male genotypes and female phenotypes. De la Chapelle Men are the opposite. Transsexuals have a female phenotype with regards to that portion of their brain.

Further, science does show SLIGHT differences between the genders with regards to behavior. Men tend to have higher sex drives for instance. It only makes sense as there are differences in the brain structure of men and women. Overall, these differences are averages and there are people who vary but overall it is well understood that there are in general differences in behavior between men and women.[/font]

http://www.sexscience.org/PDFs/Gender%20Differences%20and%20Similarities%20in%20Sexuality%20Final.pdf
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Finally, part of breaking the stereotypes against men and women includes fighting for transgender rights and acceptance. Nothing challenges those stereotypes more than men and women who want to be the other gender.[/font]

LGB activism is about expanding and re-defining concepts of gender; but transgender activism is about re-asserting and codifying traditional gender.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Bullshit. Only a person who has no understanding of transgenderism thinks that. There are feminine transwomen and then there are transtomboy and butch translesbians, there are manly transmen and then there feminine transmen. For instance:[/font]

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/04/i-will-never-straighten-out-my-wrist/

When you look at what the trans activists are saying online, it's nothing but vitriol and death threats, especially towards women. The word "TERF" is a slur. Online, nothing but thousands of the vilest kind of threats to "TERFS". To women, not to men who actually are violent to transgenders.

Come on now: let’s be real. Who’s the one inciting violence?

Never in the history of social movements has there been such public and casual calls to kill other humans as there is with Trans.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You tell me:[/font]

http://www.transadvocate.com/50000-deaths_n_8926.htm
http://www.transadvocate.com/intro-to-the-sexing-the-body-is-gender-series_n_14019.htm
http://www.transadvocate.com/that-time-terfs-beat-radfems-for-protecting-a-trans-woman-from-assault_n_14382.htm
http://theterfs.com/2014/09/02/the-michigan-womyns-music-festival-the-historic-radfem-vs-terf-vs-trans-fight/


This is neurobabble and non-science. There is no science I'm aware of that proves "gender identity" has an objective existence. I am qualified in science, and I've looked into it. "Gender identity" is a supernatural claim. All the "brain studies" that get trotted out time and again simply do not prove otherwise. The brain is a flexible organ, and differences between men and women can be purely down to socialization. Moreover, gender identity disorder is diagnosed on subjective criteria.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]No it is not and I already showed this. You are engaging in denailism and pseudoscience.[/font]

We don't have the faintest idea in what way homosexuality, love of music, or preference for chocolate icre cream manifests in the head, and we're supposed to believe we have solid proof that "gender" exists and where it is localized in the brain, separately to biological sex? Come on, that simply isn't credible.

I find it bewildering that women fought so hard against the notion that women and men are somehow inherently different in ways that matter, who now support this claim when transgenders make it! It's just scientific sexism.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Actually we do know it from studies of the brain which you are handwaving away. We also know that both these things are the result of genetics and exposure to hormones in the body during fetal development. But keep up with the RW arguments against both transpeople and gay people...it just reveals you for what you are.

It is not scientific sexism, as acknowledging that there are differences between men and women is not sexist. This is simply the reality of it, and you are trying to distort things to attack transpeople.[/font]

The John/Joan case does not prove otherwise; nothing about a single person can prove any general case, let alone a child who was sexually abused by Mengele-like psychiatrists. Mutilating a boy who then says he is not a girl does not prove that boys who claim to be female are ever female, let alone always female.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Actually, there are other cases just like it, and it does prove otherwise. If I said there are no such things as birds, one needs only produce a single bird to prove one wrong. Same here, Reimer did prove that gender goes beyond socialization.

But you don't like that so you want to hand wave it away to justify your bigotry.[/font]


We are supposed to believe that Bruce Jenner who is the biological father of 6 children by 3 different wives is magically and mysteriously just like intersex people because of his special “lady brain”. This is bullshit and people know it.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]No, it is science. Sorry that science has gotten in the way of your hate fest.[/font]


We’re told “gender is not sex” like a mantra bereft of enlightenment. Well, what is gender? They never answer. Where did it come from? They never answer. Reality is that male/female sex dimorphism is how mammals reproduce. Define gender, I ask.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+the+definition+of+gender%3F

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Your welcome!

Where does it come from? The brain.

And no, again your science sucks. There are hermaphrodites who reproduce, there are asexual beings that reproduce, and no matter how much you hate it, the world is not the black and white you want it to be.[/font]

Gender is a socially constructed hierarchy of sex based norms imposed onto bodies. There. That wasn’t difficult, was it?


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]And gender identity is based in the brain. There. That wasn't difficult was it?[/font]

Now, it’s pretty obvious that such is absurd immaterialism. “Inner, transcendental gender essence” can’t hold under scrutiny, according to any understanding of self and subjectivity.

Transgenderists well know this.

So, to protect this essentialism, transgenderists bully anyone — women or transsexuals in particular — who know females (women) and male transwomen have differences. So that, recently, an American professor sought to ban the word female from the classroom, since it might hurt male feelings.

I kid you not: Biology is now considered offensive.


[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Biology isn't considered offensive, your pseudo-scientific transphobia is.

I know this will get me a hide but it is worth it:

[font style="font-family:'papyrus','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=6 color=crimson]
  • Fuck Bigots

  • Fuck Transphobes

  • Fuck Terfs

  • Fuck Your Bigoted Apologia for Terfs and Transphobes
  • [/font]

    You should have been MIRT'd long ago.[/font]


    EDIT: Keep this my usual teal color instead of the indigo I have been using for Halloween because of all the links.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:25 PM

21. +1

Preach!

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:42 PM

27. +1

TERFs shouldn't be allowed to propagate their hate on this site.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:31 PM

34. Thank you.

I hope your post doesn't get hidden because that needed to be said.

Tired of the transphobia and ALL bigotry here.


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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:42 PM

36. +1

We need clean-up on aisle 5.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:14 PM

40. Bravo! nt

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:28 PM

42. Thanks for this - this is awesome.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:15 PM

46. Nailed it.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:08 PM

56. ...

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:29 PM

57. Nicely done, as always.

Remind me never to piss you off

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Response to frizzled (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:22 PM

19. I'm going to bookmark this under

 

"fucking bullshit I never thought I'd see on a progressive site"

It's kind of a long name for a folder, but, sadly, it gets a lot of love.

How far back do we have to go before we see society treating gay men like you are treating the trans population? And guess who was there to help you out? Progressives. That we now have people that identify as progressives going on a progressive site and treating the trans population this way is nothing short of sickening.

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Response to frizzled (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:15 PM

47. I alerted on this horror of a post and it was upheld 4:3. Here are the results

 

Jurors 1,2,6 & 7 you should be ashamed of yourselves.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert
Mail Message
On Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:03 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

No. This is leftwing biology denial and pseudoscience.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7296086

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

This is a long winded attempt to promote and justify transphobia. I believe this is against the DU TOS and DU rank and file members should also vote to indicate transphobia is unacceptable.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:11 PM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Man you aren't kidding about the long winded! Voting to hide transphobia.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you.

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:26 PM

22. It's not alleged transphobia, Greer IS a transphobe...

 

That's all I'll say, because others here have better explained than I can what garbage that article is.

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 07:35 PM

26. If a venue has a policy against giving air time to bigots, they're not being inconsistent.

At least in the US, she has the 1st amendment right to free speech just like any other bigot. Doesnt mean every venue needs to provide her with a megaphone to use.

The irony is rich when people who have traditionally been pro-censorship complain about being "censored", of course.

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:24 PM

31. That kind of bullshit has been going on right here on DU

 

for years, is going on TODAY, and not one thing has ever been done about it. That kind of ultra-identity politics is nothing but Stalinism or Maoism in a different rhetorical suit. Disgreement = "hate speech" that must be silenced Take that shit to Kim Jong Cartman's North Korea, you'll be much happier there, where there is only One Approved Thought..

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #31)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:02 PM

54. so if I say gay folk should not have the right to marry

why am I on DU? I should just go on a piece of shit site like the repuke republic if I think bigotry is A-OK

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:30 PM

33. The term "identity politics" is bullshit

It's a way for straight white men to whine about other people standing up for themselves.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #33)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 10:58 PM

51. I have found out right here on du

That cis hetero white upper-middle class Christian men get offended when they are reminded of what they are.

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 08:44 PM

38. Germaine Greer is a nasty and ignorant bigot.

And anyone who tosses around phrases like "leftwing biology" doesn't gain credibility either.

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:13 PM

39. Fuck this bigot and anyone that buys into this bullshit. nt

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:00 PM

52. What a load of crap.

Is "social justice activists" the UK equivalent of social justice warrior (AKA dog whistle for right wing assholes?)

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:01 PM

53. sorry, no, I don't tolerate bigotry

it's that simple

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:44 PM

58. I wonder whatever possessed you to think this garbage belonged here.

 

It doesn't.

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Response to Post removed (Original post)

Wed Oct 28, 2015, 11:56 PM

60. Oh Bullshit

Greer apparently doesn't read any other feminist work but her own and she can kiss my feminist ass.

Hate is hate. TERFs are hate-filled resentful people.

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