Be more respectful and call him or her "the person who stole my bicycle" rather than a "criminal"

[Liberal_in_LA]

Is it wrong to call someone who steals a "criminal"?

In a recent thread on NextDoor, a group of neighbors living in the Noe Valley-Glen Park area debated whether labeling a person who commits petty theft as a "criminal" is offensive.

In the site's Crime and Safety area, where residents share strategies for fighting crime, Malkia Cyril asked her Noe Valley neighbors to stop using the label because it shows lack of empathy and understanding.

Cyril suggested that instead of calling the thief who took the bicycle from your garage a criminal, you should be more respectful and call him or her "the person who stole my bicycle."

"I [suggest] that people who commit property crimes are human and deserved to be referred to in terms that acknowledge that," Cyril, who's the executive director of the Center for Media Justice in Oakland, writes in the thread



http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Political-correctness-San-Francisco-criminal-6598509.php

[Nye Bevan]

1. Call me a bluff old traditionalist

but I always thought that a "criminal" is a person who commits a crime. And I believe that in most jurisdictions, stealing someone's bike is technically a crime.

[Chan790]

2. Sure, but isn't precision worthwhile?

I tend to agree with the premise, though I disagree with Ms. Cyril's reasoning, but instead because "the person that stole my bicycle" is more precise than "criminal."

The guy that stole my wallet is also a criminal though he's not the same guy that stole my bicycle.

For that matter, the two guys that murdered my mom's endocrinologist's family are also criminals, but there is a universe of severity of the crimes between "bike-thief" and "multiple murderer."

Doesn't precision matter, if no better reason than the sake of clarity?

[Warpy]

7. How about "thief?"

It's a good old word, short and descriptive of some scum sucking, worthless piece of shit who takes things that don't belong to him.

[independentpiney]

29. That was my first thought as well

though if it was my bike 'thief' would be preceded by a few other descriptive words.

[Chan790]

34. I'd say: Yes, "thief" is more taxonomically accurate.

I think it's important to use precise descriptors over vague ones. I think it's all those writing classes I've taken, later taught. Precision and clarity are important to great writing.

[1939]

37. "Thief" is a subset of "criminal"

Criminal is a larger category which includes murderers, rapists, robbers, grifters, vandals, etc. as well as thieves.

[Chan790]

38. I'm arguing that makes it a useless word in nearly every context due to imprecision. n/t

[1939]

48. But you would have no trouble calling everything a "tank"

Even when it is not a "tank" but an armored car, armored personnel carrier, self-propelled artillery piece, etc.


Omg!! The cops are using "tanks". That isn't a "tank", it is an armored car.

[Chan790]

50. No. I'd be the guy being critical of calling everything a "tank."

I am unfailingly taxonomically-exact in my language.

[pintobean]

13. If we're talking about a stolen bike

using criminal is perfectly clear. The crime of stealing a bike is established, the perpetrator of that crime is the criminal.

[Chan790]

33. Sure, in the same sense that we're both people.

"Criminal" is a vague, wishy-washy word. It's about as useful as a descriptor as "hedonist"...it encompasses so many things and so many people that lack of precision makes it functionally pointless to use, even where accurate.

It comes back to something I was told once...the average person commits 3 acts a month that are technically violations of the law in some context. P'bean...we're all criminals; from my brother tearing the tags off mattresses or my other brother the habitual speeder to me jay-walking on empty streets to the guy stealing paper-clips from work to Fiona Apple to bicycle thieves...everybody's a little bit scofflaw.

Probably even you, if you think about it long enough. You can likely come up with something that you've done that isn't quite legal.

[pintobean]

35. Context matters.

If you get confused that easily, it's not the writer's problem. I'm sure all of the neighbors who read that on nextdoor.com understood exactly what the victim meant, even the person who complained about it.

[Chan790]

39. Not confused.

Just think vague imprecise words should always be substituted for with more precise words. (edit: where possible and viable to do so.)

[pintobean]

45. I bet that goes over big at parties.

[Chan790]

51. Do I strike you as the sort of person that goes to those kinds of parties?

Why on Earth would I want to spend my time getting drunk on cheap beer, having dull conversations, and listening to crappy music?

[pintobean]

52. No, not at all

nor someone who finds much humor in anything. That's almost criminal.

[JackInGreen]

53. More edges than bismuth, m80.

[WinkyDink]

56. You are, alas, mistaken, confusing "details" with "better." "Criminal" is the general term; THEN can

add the pertinent details.

It's like you are suggesting that words such as "place," "fruit," or "animal" ought to be thrown out because they are not "precise"!

[Chan790]

70. I'm suggesting something akin to that.

Specifically, that using vaguer terms in any context where one can use a precise one is the sign of a weak mind.

So you're not wrong...I think words like "place", "fruit" and "animal" are so vague as to be functionally useless and should used only rarely and only in contexts where a more precise word cannot be used. For the most part, I do think they should be ruled-out of use.

[WinkyDink]

71. Good luck! (BTW, I am not against precise language. I banned the word "thing" from students'

compositions. But I think general terms, such as "criminal," that denote entire classes also are important.

Kind of like in biology.

[Eleanors38]

62. "Butt-stink." It was a bike, after all.

[morningfog]

8. Technically, there is no criminal until a conviction.

The person is accused of committing a crime. They are any number of reasons why the person while took the bike may have not even committed a crime.

[jberryhill]

28. Tell that to the prosecutor

I suppose if you are mugged, you call the police and report that a non-criminal hit you over the head and took your wallet.

[Lizzie Poppet]

47. I disagree.

If a crime is committed, there is a criminal. A conviction simply determines who the criminal is.

Now if there is actually no crime, as your second sentence addresses, then sure...no crime means no criminal. But the action under discussion in this thread isn't "lawful taking of a bicycle," it's "bicycle theft." That there is a criminal is implicit in the definition of "bicycle theft."

[morningfog]

64. Wrong. As I said, any number of circumstances could make it

not a crime. The person thinks their bicycle was stolen. But it could have been confiscated by authorities for some reason, not a crime. It could have been taken under duress or emergency, not a crime. There are other scenarios with no criminal or crime. You need a crime to make a criminal.

[Lizzie Poppet]

65. Nope, not wrong.

I accounted for the possibility of it not being a crime. Here, let me add emphasis to what I wrote, for clarification:

If a crime is committed, there is a criminal. A conviction simply determines who the criminal is.

Now if there is actually no crime, as your second sentence addresses, then sure...no crime means no criminal.

Hope that clears up any misunderstanding about what I wrote.

[world wide wally]

3. Perhaps a better word for the thief would be "asshole"

[Xipe Totec]

14. I prefer "ownership-impaired" nt

[Monk06]

4. Only someone with money, who has never been a victim of crime could ever entertain such a daft

soft headed, hippy shit point of view.

The summer of love ended in 1967. Bicycle thieves don't care about how poor their victims are, they care about their next ball of crack. They are the lowest of the low.

I caught a guy trying to steal my bike years ago. He was quite smug about until he realized I was watching him steal it with the help of two equally smug winos helping him. Good score they were saying to themselves.

I told them all to fuck off or there was going to be a bit of a tussle.

[smirkymonkey]

15. +1000

This is the most idiotic PC bs I have ever heard in my life. And I usually never complain about anything being PC, but this is just over the top.

[Monk06]

69. BBFTS for the win !!

BTW I think Justin Trudeau is closer to Bernie than Mulcair up here/ I think we made the right choice

[AZ Progressive]

5. Well, typically a "criminal" is someone who has repeatedly done crimes and...

is not afraid to break the law and hurt other people.

I've been a victim of several thieves and a con-artist (who almost financially ruined me), I have a right to call criminals criminals. They are not like everyone else. Maybe they had a hard life and impulse control problems, I grant you that. But I wouldn't be around them without keeping my stuff guarded, and I wouldn't want to make friends with them and/or meet their friends.

BTW, stuff are just stuff unless stuff equate a lot of hard work on your behalf. If someone steals something expensive from you, thats like them forcing you to work for a long time just to replace that thing.

[Lizzie Poppet]

6. Ms. Cyril, no one's saying they're not human.

They're criminal humans, and that distinction is perfectly fair. Does that hurt their fee-fees (or yours)? Try and wrap your mind, Ms. Cyril, around the complete and utter lack of fucks I give.

[smirkymonkey]

16. +1000

Ms. Cyril really needs to get a real job, or a hobby or something. She has way too much time on her hands to ponder inane bullshit like this.

[Lizzie Poppet]

41. Great point.

Ms. Cyril really needs to get a real job, or a hobby or something.

Too right. She's the "executive director of the Center for Media Justice." The copy on their About Us site page reads like it was created with one of those old online business bullshit generators.

To wit:
"leveraging constituency"
"integrate powerful strategies"
"coalesce the political power of constituency-based groups"

[smirkymonkey]

49. In other words "bullshit, bullshit and bullshit".

I guess everyone has to justify their existence somehow.

[Waldorf]

9. In my book, they are classified as a criminal. n/t

[NBachers]

10. Please excuse my lack of sympathy and understanding for the dirtbag crooks who stole my bike;

as well as the criminal pieces of shit who broke into my apartment and stole from me.

[Recursion]

11. I'm pretty sure criminals are humans (nt)

[Warren DeMontague]

12. Until stealing bikes isn't a crime, someone who steals one is a criminal.

Beyond that, I really have trouble believing that bike thieves are a what you would call an 'unfairly maligned' group. I say that as someone who has had a bike or two stolen in my day.

[hobbit709]

17. I'm willing to bet Ms. Cyril would have a different attitude if her stuff was stolen.

And a bank robber is a person that made an unauthorized withdrawal.

[smirkymonkey]

18. So is she going to tell us next that it's disrespectful to call people who

write unbelievably stupid articles "idiots" and instead should just refer to them as "the person who wrote the unbelievably stupid article"?

This is the most ridiculous load of crap I have ever heard in my life.

[bigwillq]

19. Criminals get no respect from me.

They're criminals, and they should be called out for what they are.

I understand that some people have to do what they gotten do to survive, but they are still a criminal.

[NutmegYankee]

20. My friend had his bike stolen while we ate at burger king when I was a kid.

We ran out after the guy as he rode off but he didn't get far. He turned to look back at us and rode straight into the path of a car. He was mangled pretty bad with at least one broken leg and nasty road rash patches on his shoulder and back. My friend was pissed - it was a nice mountain style bike (fairly new for kids at the time) and it was bent up and non-repairable.

[ileus]

21. How about scumbag motherbleeper....criminal is being too nice IMHO.

[B Calm]

22. So now calling someone who steals a criminal is not PC.

[kcr]

23. I think there should also be empathy for the person who lost their bike

That is completely over the top nonsense and makes me wonder if it's made up.

[hobbit709]

25. I've known people that were that lost in the ozone.

[GGJohn]

24. Malkia Cyril is an idiot.

That is all.

[elehhhhna]

26. No! She is a person who is an idiot. Thank you.

[GGJohn]

27. You're right. Thanks for the clarification. eom.

[jberryhill]

31. No, she's a person who is right.

[GGJohn]

32. LOL.

You, as a person, are right.

[jberryhill]

30. Everyone's a person who talks like a comedian

[Baitball Blogger]

36. It is a slippery slope when you over-PC activity that clearly falls into a category of stealing.

Right-wing communities with strong blue-collar demographics are very guilty of this "look the other way" kind of thinking. They have a phrase for it: "Stealing things fair and square." If certain criteria are met, then the theft will meet the approval of their support group. And the key is, that they will insure that they have the relationships established before they engage in activity that essentially steals someone else's property rights.

Might makes right. Whoever wrote that article should buy a house in a right wing community and see how long it will take before she begins to see stealing for what it is. It should wake her up when she realizes that children are being taught how to make alliances and collusions to increase their chances of "getting away with it."

And if you look a little closer, you will see the foundation of the privileged society that many of us keep talking about.

[H2O Man]

40. Many years ago,

someone stole 12-year old Cassius Clay's bike. This led young Cassius into a boxing gym, where he sought to learn to fight, so that he could whup the boy who stole his bike.

Whatever became of the bike thief is lost to history.

[FLPanhandle]

42. BWAHAHA!

[Go Vols]

43. lol

[GoneOffShore]

44. The only good to come out of this article is learning about Next Door

Which I'm now signing up for.

Probably won't be able to comment on Ms Cyril's contentions and peregrinations but the site is useful in that it would appear that there are various of my neighbors here in Philly on the local version.

Although Ms Cyril would seem to be highly educated, it's more likely she has been educated beyond her intelligence. Her empathy is misplaced and her contortions would confuse a pretzel.

[meaculpa2011]

46. The young gentleman who held me up...

at gunpoint is a do-it-yourself redistributor.

[WinkyDink]

57. "young"? Are you an AGIST?!

[hifiguy]

54. Batshit crazy.

A thief is a goddam CRIMINAL.

[WinkyDink]

55. To commit a CRIME is, ergo, to be a CRIMINAL. I am sick of DULL-WITTED nincompoops!

[Squinch]

58. I have no problem calling a criminal a criminal, but why did the guy they quoted feel

the need to tell us about his race and sexual orientation?

Yeah, the person making the suggestion that we not use the word "criminal" is kind of an asshole, but I'm not sure the other guy isn't one too.

[Recursion]

59. Because victimhood is a rhetorical trump card?

That can't be that unfamiliar, can it?

[Squinch]

61. My mind went more toward the idea that he was telling us, "well, yeah I'm white...

... not like these guys we're calling criminals..." He jumped right to race out of the blue in a discussion of criminality.

I thought he was unconsciously implying that criminals are not of his race. I might be reading into that, but often and disappointingly with this kind of thing, I am not.

[petronius]

60. When I use the word 'criminal' I always intend it to mean "a respect-worthy human

being who--for reasons which are unknown to me and about which I make no assumption or judgement--has engaged in one or more behaviors which society has--through an arguably arbitrary process which has not included input and consent from all members of that society (which is itself a concept subject to critique and redefinition)--defined as inappropriate." Isn't that the common definition?

[AZ Progressive]

63. Anyone here who sympathizes with criminals has never been a victim of a serious crime

Or has never worked hard to build something up just for someone to go and take it away. You have never been a victim of a cold hearted person that left you for dead.

I will say though that modern society does play a part in making people into criminals. The lack of love from a mother, a hostile society, the lack of job opportunities, can contribute to turning people to a life of crime. And when they are convicted as felons, only seals their fate as criminals.

[11 Bravo]

66. This is the kind of shit that makes it hard to be a lefty.

[TransitJohn]

76. Fucking A

It's maddening.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

67. Malkia Cyril is off base here

Encouraging empathy and understanding is a fine goal but referring in the abstract to a thief as a criminal is neither apathetic nor insensitive. If a particular individual came forward or was accused of this act I can accept that suggestion conditionally.

There are no crimes divorced from the victims thereof and this criminal stole what the victim cannot afford to replace. The victim is someone with health issues. I have no reason to believe this bicycle was part of the victim's collection of bicycles nor is there information of its being used as an ornamental decoration. I have to assume it served as a means of transport and that its loss will impact the former owner with ongoing monetary expense in addition to the loss of its intrinsic value.

Even the breeze from the fly's wing has an effect on the stallion a thousand miles away. I can understand someone who does what is needed to care for loved ones: parents feeding children, family caring for elderly, etc. If a neighbor in serious need stole the item out of desperation, I would have sympathy. If this was perpetrated as one of a series of thefts, then I have neither understanding nor empathy.without knowledge of mitigating factors.

Many things can be shared by individuals or groups which help each other. One of those things is forgiveness but like anything one may need, one must ask for it and, in doing so, admit the crime.

[loyalsister]

68. If a criminal is a criminal is a criminal

how can one credibly argue against diparities we see in the rates of incarceration and the mentality that suggests it's okay because "they probably did something they didn't get caught for anyway"?

There are differences between murder and marijuana possession yet the offenders are sometimes treated exactly the same. Do we use the phrase marijuana possessor vs murderer? To label both "criminals" suggests that is appropriate to treat them the same.

I prefer precision and acknowledging the differences between an accusation vs conviction and language specific to a crime. I think it is also important to acknowledge the difference between a behavior and an intrinsic characteristic. Making an effort to minimize generalizations and abstractions makes language more useful.

[WinkyDink]

72. Besides terminology, WTH is up with "be more respectful"? I HATE when cops call suspects "gentlemen"

[Quackers]

73. Im reminded of this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027263381

[Buns_of_Fire]

74. It's not only wrong, it's doubleplusungood! nt

[TransitJohn]

75. Oh Jesus Fucking Christ

the word police have gone and lost their minds.

[B Calm]

77. Wouldn't it be better to call him a brute?