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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAn intelligent response to the events in Paris
The kneejerk reaction is to retaliate. More bombs, more war.... vengeance. This is not the intelligent response. If ISIS is in fact behind these attacks (and just claiming to be doesn't make it so), then retaliation is EXACTLY what they want. Retaliation is a recruiting tool they will use to convince the dispossessed and forgot among the Muslim population that "see? the West really DOES hate us. Come to us. Fight back." Retaliation plays right into their hands.
The intelligent response is the counterintuitive response. It involves the following:
-- Find and prosecute those responsible. Legally prosecute. Not with drones and violence. This was a criminal act. Treat it as such.
-- Stop persecuting the Muslim populations in Europe. Stop trying to ban Burkas, and other such nonsense. Let them practice their religion freely.
-- Embrace, support, and assimilate the refugees. They are the ones fleeing this madness. Show love and compassion, and stop putting up walls or setting up barriers to keep them from entering.
-- Begin a more constructive dialogue with Muslims in Europe (and elsewhere). Understand them. Understand their culture. Don't belittle it, don't denigrate it, don't legislate against it. 99.99% of them want to live peacefully among us. Let them.
Wars, guns, and violence won't solve this problem. Understanding and dialogue will. How about, for once, an open hand instead of a fist?
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CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)3) return to the concept of the soveriegn nation state with borders and democratic control of the economy, trade, currency, war powers etc.
hack89
(39,181 posts)Limited only by laws regarding civil rights and equality correct?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Yesterday Jihadi John was killed but far more important than that symbolic act that makes folks in the West feel better for some reason I guess, was the recapture of the City of Singar from ISIS by the Kurds, with aerial support. A turning point in the war perhaps...but where is the coverage of that? It does seem some forces in the West are not unhappy having ISIS around to marshall good old reliable Fear in the populace so they can be controlled better.
It is only what The West does or thinks that is important, you see, and only the political and moral and religious viewpoints of The West count because....."might makes right".
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And we see the result plain enough.
MH1
(19,151 posts)Not when their religion involves treating women as property.
If someone wants to move to my country, they need to live to a certain minimum standards of human rights. If they refuse to do that, they can stay and fight their adversaries in their country, fight over which barbaric rulers will rule them all.
Otherwise I think your sentiments have a lot of merit. But we have to realize that religion - or beliefs people ascribe to their own religion, whether their sacred texts really support those beliefs or not - is a prime motivator for these acts of terrorism, and we must face that fact and come up with realistic solutions to address it.
And frankly if someone wants to beat his wife and force her to cover from head to toe in a heavy black garment in 105 degree heat, and she is not allowed to leave the house without an "appropriate" male companion, and if she is raped then SHE will be punished by being stoned to death, or having acid thrown in her face if she rejects a suitor ... fuck that shit, don't bring it here. We already have enough misogyny and other extremism to deal with.
I know that the many of the refugees from mid-east conflicts don't conform to the negative stereotype I wrote above. Fine. Those folks will have zero problem living within our laws, and giving up their burqas and other forms of repression.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)If a religion as practiced includes women-as-chattel and other forms of extreme misogyny, advocacy of forced conversion, murder of apostates and unbelievers, and so forth, then, well...fuck it. Those who practice their medieval-minded superstitions in that matter don't deserve respect or accommodation.
randys1
(16,286 posts)I dont respect any religion or dogma, but this is especially troublesome. Agreed.
The belief that you can treat Women like shit and that one should kill all westerners are not the same, of course.
One thing at a time.
Nay
(12,051 posts)be "free" to treat women like slaves, and I don't give a damn what your religion says.
randome
(34,845 posts)I don't think agonizing over 'understanding' them will help, in this case.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
Westerners failing to distinguish between "Muslims" and "Muslim terrorists" is a victory for the latter and a defeat for the former.
randome
(34,845 posts)I despise religion in all forms but I will not blame it for death cults like this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
Bucky
(55,334 posts)I may loath them, but I'd take the glib Gospel-of-Wealth con artists over the nihilistic Wahhabists any day.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)---
The terrorists did not target symbols of the French state, or of French militarism. They did not even target tourist spots. They targeted, rather, the areas and the places where mainly young, anti-racist, multiethnic Parisians hang out.
The cafes, restaurants, bars and music venue that were attacked - Le Carillon, La Belle Equipe, Le Petit Cambodge, the Bataclan - are in the 10th and 11th arrondissements, areas that, though increasingly gentrified, remain ethnically and culturally mixed and still with a working-class presence.
The other venue attacked was the Stade de France, the national football stadium. France and Germany were playing a game there on Friday night, and French President Francois Hollande was in attendance.
But the Stade de France, like France's national football team, also has great cultural resonance. "Les Bleus" - as the team is known - are seen by many as an embodiment of multicultural France, a team consisting of "noir, blanc, beur" (black, white, Arab) players. It was in the Stade de France that Les Bleus, led by Zinedine Zidane, a Frenchman of Algerian descent, famously won the World Cup in 1998.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/11/knee-jerk-finger-pointing-paris-attacks-151114130014452.html
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)They aren't interested in military targets. They know they can't substantively harm the French military. They are seeking to install hatred. Hatred against themselves. To elicit a response. Which will in turn gain sympathy among potential supporters. To gain more recruits. Lather, rinse, repeat.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
underpants
(196,390 posts)They wouldn't stick out especially in the numbers that they had to be in to do this.
Not arguing - I agree with you but I would be surprised if this wasn't part of their horrible wicked design.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)So yeah, but it's not exactly wrong either.
Fundamentally (no pun intended) they want attention, a big "success", things have not been going well in the war for them.
Baghdadi needs recruits, and money.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)Invading and utterly destroying a country that had nothing to do with the terrorism. The only question: which one? (My money's on Samoa)
Octafish
(55,745 posts)We've been killing people "over there" for decades. Besides giving us great oil prices, all it's accomplished is to create new enemies faster than we can kill off the old ones.
It has something to do with valuing human life. Some people just don't understand their lives aren't worth as much as white people's lives.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Wars, guns and violence are, unfortunately, the only thing that will stop ISIS. They may not be a price worth paying, but it's looking increasing plausible that they are.
Yes, bombing ISIS will convince more Muslims that the West hates ISIS. Since most Muslims hate ISIS too, that's a good thing.
Prosecuting those responsible is, obviously, not possible without defeating them in a war first.
Also, we *should* actively denigrate and belittle Islam as interpreted by a large majority of its practitioners (albeit not all of them) as a false and immoral system of ideas and beliefs that is opposed to womens' rights, gay rights, freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and we should actively encourage Muslim countries to abandon those aspects of their own cultures and become more liberal.
I do agree (as stated above) about not persecuting Muslims in the Europe, though - the burka ban is a clear violation of precisely the values we should be promoting.
I also think that a more welcoming response to refugees would be a good thing, but I think you're completely wrong to link it to the Paris terrorist attacks. Welcoming more refugees from the middle east will increase, not decrease, the likelihood of terrorist attacks in the West, but even so it's the ethical thing to do.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Or are you going to send others to fight your war?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)And that says it all.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Guess what... it doesn't work. Bombing alone accomplishes very little. If we are going to "fight the enemy", we will have to invade the enemy. Its the only way to win. I'm hearing a lot of the same rhetoric that i heard after 9/11, and its quite alarming.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)in other countries requires war to take them prisoner. It's all very coy to pretend we can just go arrest them and put them on trial.
I advocate none of what you are putting in my mouth. I simply point out that you are not responding to valid points others are making respectfully. You are doing the same to me.
You say you want the guilty prosecuted, so are you going to go take them into custody? Or will you send others to do that for you?
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)The men perpetrating this act were French speaking. Which makes it quite likely they are French nationals. So they are within the borders of France. The police should be able the apprehend them.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)A lack of mindfulness in language causes you to advocate for war when you perhaps don't intend to do so.
But the real point is that you are being evasive of points raised to you. It indicates a lack of respect for the posters you refuse discussion with and for the issues they raise.