General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsStates are incrementally banning Sharia Law. What about Orthodox Jewish law?
Women face poverty, opt not to obtain restraining orders, give up their children for a "get" or the "settlement price" is very expensive.
"We consider the withholding of a get a form of domestic abuse, said Rabbi Jeremy Stern, the executive director of ORA, which is currently working on about 70 agunah cases, the majority of them in the New York area. Domestic abuse is about control. Abuse is not just about black and blue marks.
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A lot of victims of abuse give up many important rights in order to get a religious divorce, Nataneli said. Many women who need an order of protection wont do it. They are terrified.
-snip-
In Israel, men who dont give their wives a get can be thrown in jail. But in the U.S., where civil law has no jurisdiction over religious unions, women have far less leverage.
New York State has passed laws aimed at removing barriers to religious remarriage. But as a practical matter, they have had limited benefits.
-more-
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/lost-women-struggle-jewish-divorce-orthodox-husbands-article-1.1085440
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/KO/KOHome.html
The Kosher Law Protection Act of 2004 became law on July 13, 2004. Provisions of the Act pertaining to packaging, advertising, disclosure, record keeping and filing become effective January 9, 2005. Forms will be made available on-line at this web page as of December 1, 2004 or can be mailed to you by emailing kosher@agriculture.ny.gov. Certain filings must be completed at least 30 days in advance of offering or distributing food as kosher in New York State.
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And, here's the thing. It's a perfectly reasonable advertising and labeling law. If someone is selling food as "Kosher", then it's no different from laws addressing the sale of "organic", "cage free", "gluten free", "low sodium" and so on.
But just TRY to introduce a "Halal food law" anywhere, and people will go crazy.
These "shariah law" bans only cause uncertainty in the mortgage market, since in states like Kansas, the status of "shariah mortgage" products offered by banks is now up in the air.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Nor is New York's Muslim population impressive enough to earn specially-carved districts to get them their own legislators the way NYC finally did for Chinatown.
You will get your "halal" protection laws when the growing Muslim population is strong enough to make it an issue.
Or do you believe Muslims shouldn't have the same journey as every other immigrant group?
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)The village of Kiryas Joel in upstate Orange County is home to thousands of Orthodox Jews of the Satmar sect. Most of the kids go to (gender-segregated) shul, of course -- but the inbred nature of the Satmar community has led to a large population of kids with developmental disabilities. And the Satmar parents wouldn't send them to special school in the surrounding district, because of that newfangled coeducation thing.
So the state went ahead and set up a public, gender-segregated school district just for Kiryas Joel! (Did I mention that its residents tend to vote in bloc?) After a court slapped it down, they tried again -- and succeeded.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Be sure to bring it up in meetings. Call for a vote.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I can follow the Catholic law, by choice, and not use birth control. No need for the government to pass a law banning "Catholic Law." Likewise the banning of "Sharia law" is just ridiculous. It will not be enforced where it's not US law, and people can only follow it to the extent allowed here. For instance if Sharia law allows a man to beat his wife, he can't do it here anyway and it's a crime. No need to declare "sharia law" unenforceable.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If I sell pork falsely labeled as "Halal" in Kansas, it is now legal for me to do so.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)which is in itself illegal, of course. No such thing as Halal pork, just as there is no kosher pork. It is illegal across the country to sell one product labeled as another, so you can not mark pork as lamb or beef, with or without religious connections to the labeling.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)In order for a court to find "No such thing as Halal pork", the court has to answer the precedent fact question about whether pork is "Halal". In order to answer that question, the court has to apply shariah law.
If I say my pork is "Halal", and you say my pork is not "Halal", then please explain to me, without reference to Islamic law, the basis by which a court is going to say you are right and I am wrong.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)And also there are jurisdictions with halal specific regulations, the first one was in Ohio at the county level in 2005. And there is no law that allows you to call corn wheat, nor chicken duck, in fact all of that is strictly illegal. There is no such thing as pork which is halal, so in order to pass off a product as halal, one would have to claim it was not pork at all, and that is simply illegal for any reason.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And there is utterly no basis, absent reference to religious law, for you to assert I am wrong in doing so.
But you are obviously intent on missing the larger point. I can sell any cut of any beef as "Halal beef" too. Because the only way you are going to get to a "mislabeling" issue is by answering the question of whether it is or is not Halal.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)A person claiming they have 'halal pork' would get the same reaction as one claiming they had 'kosher pork'. The words are mutually exclusive. I guess in areas lacking in direct kosher laws, and there are many, one could label lobster kosher and see how that did for them too.
Even if the law allowed such dishonest labeling, and you may be right, it might do that, it is a huge leap to claim you could actually sell that product with halal as a selling point.
And I have not read the KS law, so I don't know what it says. Hard to believe it disallows a functioning definition of any word from the Arabic. Also hard to believe the FDA would allow a State to abandon truth in labeling laws specifically toward a minority religious group.
If the law there demands they pretend words with known meanings do not have meanings I'd not be surprised, it is KS. But it is an absurd stand to take that knowing the meaning of words from another religion is the same as endorsing those religions.
Just as I can't see anyone doing any business trying to sell halal pork, I don't think this sort of thing will work out for these States in the long run. It is crazy stuff any way you slice it.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Any court, arbitration, tribunal or administrative agency ruling or decision shall violate the public policy of this state and be void and unenforceable if the court, arbitration, tribunal or administrative agency bases its rulings or decisions in the matter at issue in whole or in part on any law, legal code or system that would not grant the parties affected by the ruling or decision the same fundamental liberties, rights and privileges granted under the United States and Kansas constitutions.
This law actually prevents parties from agreeing on private arbitration in a contract on any religious law whatsoever.
In other words, even if you and I agreed in our contract "in the event of a dispute, we will put the question to Rabbi Berkowitz of Temple Beth Bingo", then we lose the right of having that arbitration enforced by a court even though we agree - in the contract itself - to put it to the Rabbi.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)even. No one here likes this KS law, which I am not sure is actually functioning as yet. It was your choice to say "I could sell halal pork' rather than 'I could falsely label products as halal or as kosher under this law and attempt to foist them off on good people'. I took issue with the implication that such a label would be a selling point to the halal market. I think others did too. I also take issue in your surly words to me when I'd just said 'not read the law, don't know if it is as crazeeee as you claim, could be'. Sort of snippy on your part I think.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)There are people who buy "kosher" not because they are Jewish, but because they believe it is higher quality food.
Hebrew National based an entire ad campaign on this in the 1970's, after various consumer advocates were making an issue out of standards for hot dogs. Maybe you weren't around then, but they had a guy holding a hot dog, looking heavenward, and the tag line, "We answer to a higher authority."
Now, I'm willing to bet you that there were people who bought Hebrew National hot dogs on the basis of that advertising campaign who wouldn't be able to tell you whether or not those hot dogs would be kosher if they contained actual dogs as an ingredient.
If you labeled something as "kosher pork", some nitwit will buy it in the belief that it is somehow better, purer, or whatever. Your faith in the buying public is touching.
Here:
That ad is not directed at people who normally buy kosher.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)My faith in the buying public? Look, I and many others on this thread thought you were making a nasty comment about halal eaters. Your wording did that. I posted 'I have no idea what the KS law says' and then you called me ignorant of the law, not just rude but redundant.
I did not say I'd never been snippy, kid. But it is fucking rude to respond to 'I don't know this, and you could be right' with 'you are ignorant'. I'd call that simply out of line and non responsive.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Now, we know that pork can never be halal, but even if it were, If you don't get the blessing on it during the slaughter, it's not really "Halal."
Also, absent the INFANCA symbol and certification, your title is meaningless.
http://www.ifanca.org/
aquart
(69,014 posts)And how insulting to assume they would. Possibly it would help if you actually shopped in a market that sells "halal" food. Any child old enough to read is taught to check the ingredients label.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But you really want to avoid the larger question.
Okay, so I sell "Halal beef" which is not Halal. Do you see a legal problem, or do you just want to keep your blinders on?
There are billions of dollars in shariah mortgages in this country. Do you want to kick the legs out from under that table or not?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)that you'd get buyers for 'halal pork' which is contained in the statement 'I could sell halal pork'. Much clearer to say 'I could slap a label on non halal beef and sell it falsely as halal under this law'. It is not your conclusion, it is your example that I and others are taking slight issue with. No leg kicking or blinder wearing. Some hair splitting at most.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The matter of labeling something about what it is - can only go so far as people understanding the terms. It's not a fraud if it's true but just some people don't understand the term.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And, please take off the blinders as to an off-the-cuff example, it is normal, completely normal, for subsidiary fact questions to contain a religious question.
This happened every day during the draft, when people of various religious persuasions would claim "conscientious objector" status.
If you were a Quaker - fine.
If you were a Catholic - you were going to Vietnam.
That sort of question about "what does X religion believe" had real life and death consequences for a lot of young men.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Kosher pork is a product. I'm trying to discern the difference here. It's not forcing Jewish or Sharia law on Americans in that context. It's like choosing a jurisdiction in a contract.
The legislatures doing the banning act like we are somehow being forced to use the Sharia law and enforce it when it didn't pass our legislatures. Of course it would be impossible to explain that to those behind these laws. But what of such a contract - if the Jewish law is banned, then it takes away from freedom of contract. I have to buy pork that is pork without religious consideration, even if we both agree to it by contract? That would seem to run afoul of most states' first amendments.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...would forbid parties from even agreeing to private arbitration and having that arbitration enforced by a court, if the arbitration used religious law:
http://gaveltogavel.us/site/2011/08/08/bans-on-court-use-of-shariainternational-law-aba-house-of-delegates-opposes-blanket-prohibitions-state-legislatures-out-of-session/
KANSAS:
"Any court, arbitration, tribunal or administrative agency ruling or decision shall violate the public policy of this state and be void and unenforceable if the court, arbitration, tribunal or administrative agency bases its rulings or decisions in the matter at issue in whole or in part on any law, legal code or system that would not grant the parties affected by the ruling or decision the same fundamental liberties, rights and privileges granted under the United States and Kansas constitutions.
The Kansas "Sharia Law" ban actually abrogates the right of contract.
I mean, it is absolutely crazy. If a monk enters a monastery by taking a vow of silence, and he is kicked out because he violated that vow, then the Kansas law would say that the vow violated his First Amendment right to free speech. It's just nutty.
That's what contracts DO! They are voluntary agreements to act, or not to act, in a particular way in exchange for consideration. Contracts incorporate religious conditions all of the time, and arbitration is frequently agreed to be conducted by a religious body. What this Kansas law says is, "screw you and your agreement to have arbitration conducted by whom you chose".
It's commercially disruptive.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It may not be exactly docket-clogging, as there may not be many such contracts in Kansas. But you'd have cases where people could file saying they don't have to go to arbitration now because the arbitration clauses don't comply with that law. The vague way they've worded it could even cause of flurry of cases in arbitration clauses already written. Some Kansas lawyer is going to say hmm, that arbitration clause seems to have some features in common with Sharia law.
edhopper
(33,559 posts)often vote for Republicans. Muslims, not so much.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Laws should strengthened to protect vulnerable groups?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)While it s a serious problem, look into orthodox catholic divorces? Oh yeah, they are jst as bad.
The problem with these laws is that they are out of fear of the other. In the 1930s there were plenty of anti Jewish laws all over the United States.
It's best to understand where these come from... Serious.
But orthodox...insert faith here...is about control.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The only laws and legal processes should be those of the US government and its secular political subdivisions.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Please, do explain.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I'm a caterer. I have a Jewish wedding to cater next week. I enter into a contract with you to deliver 100 pounds of kosher beef for $800.
You show up with your truck the morning of the wedding, and you unload the beef. I see a receipt from a non-kosher butcher in your truck.
I refuse delivery of the beef, find another supplier on short notice and it costs me $!000.
I then sue you for breach of contract for $200.
You sue me for $800 for refusing delivery of the beef.
Who wins?
In order for either of us to win the suit, a court is going to have to determine whether the beef was, or was not, kosher. That's a religious question.
If you want to talk real money, then we can come up with an example involving a shariah mortgage, and example of a bequested life estate contingent on religious observance, and so on.
But kosher food is a good example since, in some states, it is the engine of many millions of dollars. Contracts depend on reliable enforcement of that condition every danged day. If you want to say that courts can't get anywhere near "religious questions", then you have a serious disruption of commerce on your hands.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)First of all, perhaps you might consider your comment against the backdrop of the general notions of "banning religious laws". Yes, indeed, if "religious law" is banned, then you aren't going to find it in the commercial code of the hypothetical state in question, since the entire point of "banning religious law" is NOT to have such definitions in the statutory code.
Secondly, courts consider the meaning of terms not defined by statute all of the time. For that purpose, the courts will look to industry practices or ordinary and usual customs by which such terms are defined.
Nikia
(11,411 posts)Orthodox Union is a Jewish organization that certifies products as Kosher. Products that are certified as Orthodox Union can carry the "OU" trademark label. The food company pays for each and every ingredient or finished product to be certified as Kosher If your company labels a product as "OU" and it has not been certified as Kosher by Orthodox Union, this could be a subject of a civil suit, even if the product is Kosher and other products that your company makes are certified as OU. Usually if this is the case, they give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to register it without penalty, but they do have the right to sue you or take away your certification for other products. If you are selling something like bacon as labeled OU certified, then your company would get sued for sure and lose.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Not a religious one...
just like your extreme example of kosher pork above...fraud is also a civilian case.
For the record...my religious wedding contract has zero standing on any civil court.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Your comment makes about zero sense. The various "no shariah law" proposals would ban any court from applying shariah law to any question. There is no distinction between civil and criminal cases there.
There is both civil and criminal fraud, btw, so why you believe otherwise is something of a mystery.
If I sell ordinary beef as "kosher" in New York, it is not only a criminal act, but the State of New York has a part of its agriculture department in charge of enforcing the New York kosher laws.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)there are days.
Goodbye.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Quite the conversationalist, aren't you.
By the way, I'm supposed to be on your "ignore" list.
Nikia
(11,411 posts)By Jewish organizations. If you are certified, you can put that on your label. If you are not certified, you cannot put it on your label. If you put that you are certified on your label and you are not certified, you could be sued. There may be criminal penalties as well.
In the case of products that are certified as Kosher, a private organization does define "Kosher". Some other private trade organizations define certain words that can be used on labels or advertising where the same sort of arrangement applies so I don't think that it is necessary that "Kosher" is has religious implications.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...when they overturned an earlier version of NY's kosher law on First Amendment grounds.
New York re-drafted the law in question, and it was upheld by the Second Circuit earlier this month in Commack Self-Service Kosher Meats, Inc. v. Hooker. Whether it goes up to the Supreme Court from there is an open question.
treestar
(82,383 posts)American contract law. The identity of the product is more like a fact question. No different from selling widgets and the other party alleging that it is not a proper widget. Not a widget, but a gadget. The court is applying American contract law to the contract. The Jewish law is just part of the fact determination.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Now, go read some of the "anti shariah law" proposals.
They literally prohibit courts from applying religious law to ANY question. There is no carve-out for answering subsidiary questions of fact in a legal dispute properly before the court.
For example, if the will says, "I leave my house to my son, provided he marries a Catholic by age 25, otherwise the house goes to St. Alphonso's Pancake Breakfast Mission" then the son and St. Alphonso's are going to end up in Probate Court to figure out whether he married a Catholic.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The condition on marraige rather than the religous condition would probably make it so.
Were it simply "I leave my house to my son, provided he is still a Catholic by age 25" would probably be enforceable. However, it would be up to the probate court to determine whether the son was indeed Catholic, not to the local Catholic Bishop. Note that as written it does not specify which Catholic church he must still be.
In my opinion, the probate court should accept the son's simple affirmation of being a Catholic or not, without communication with any clergy.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Whether a particular individual may marry outside his faith in this context is not really a matter of "public policy". The "public" has not right to inherit the house.
But taking the example you mention, then you can see where the question of "whether or not someone is Catholic" can be properly before a court.
During Vietnam, it was before a lot of courts, because if you claimed "conscientious objector status" AND you were a member of a particular religion, it mattered a great deal what your religion believed on the subject. Quakers and Amish had no problem. Catholics could not.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You are the plaintiff and I am the defendant. You are trying to prove that I failed to execute my portion of the contract, so please define "kosher" and where the USDA sets the guidelines.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)In contract law, courts have to answer riddles like this all of the time.
What will happen is that the defense will have its expert on the subject to testify about whether the beef was kosher, the plaintiff will have its expert on the subject to testify about whether the beef was kosher, and they will both do so for the purpose of allowing the court to determine what is the usual and customary practice in the relevant trade.
Next on the docket:
Probate Court:
"I leave my house to my son, provided he marries a Catholic before age 25, otherwise I leave my house to St. Alphonso's Pancake Breakfast Mission."
Okay, so, the kid has married a girl at at 24. He turns 25 and wants the house. St. Alphonso's goes to court because they don't believe she is Catholic.
Guess what the Probate Court is going to be figuring out in order to resolve that dispute?
These kinds of questions pop up all of the time, in a multitude of contexts.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)definition of "kosher." If I agreed to provide you with "kosher" beef, and I gave you beef that I felt met that standard, then without a precedent of a legal decision of just what "kosher" means, you are going to have a very difficult time proving that I failed to execute my part of the contract.
Lets stick to your original example before moving on, please.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...and you can't get a credible and accepted Rabbi to back you up.
...and I get a bunch of Rabbis to back me up.
Then you are going to lose. Your personal definition of "kosher" is not going to be understood as a reasonable interpretation of the contract term in the absence of anyone who (a) has an understanding of what "kosher" means in any commercial context, and (b) doesn't agree with you.
Subjective meanings in contract law don't do anything. Contracts are interpreted objectively, unless you are claiming mistake, which is a highly disfavored defense.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)In the end, the case will be decided upon a preponderance of the evidence and existing case law. US case law, not any religious law.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If the contract said "kosher", and I present evidence in the form of testimony from a Rabbi that the food was not kosher, then I've discharged my burden.
If you are going to say, "Well my personal definition of kosher is...." then I'm going to win on motions, and there's not even going to be a trial. The reason is that I have presented objective evidence that the food was not kosher, and you have not. You have presented no objective evidence on the point in issue at all.
You had said above that your only defense was going to be something along the lines of your personal subjective belief, and not by reference to any religious authority on the subject. Contracts are not interpreted and applied that way.
Subsidiary fact questions can turn on questions of religious law, and they do so all of the time.
During Vietnam, when men who were Baptists or Catholics claimed "conscientious objector" status to avoid the draft, why do you suppose their claims were denied, while the claims of Quakers were not? It is because courts had come to conclusions on questions of "What do Baptists, Catholics, and Quakers believe about war?" These were court decisions premised entirely on religious beliefs.
If you Google this, you'll probably enjoy it:
Mark Popovsky, The Constitutional Complexity of Kosher Food Laws, 44 Columbia Journal of Law and Social Problems 75 (2010)
The Second Circuit disagrees with Professor Popovsky, though: Commack Self-Service Kosher Meats Inc. v. Hooker 11-3517-cv (2nd Cir., May 2012)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Contract law also permits the parties to specify a form of arbitration.
Courts WILL enforce arbitration results, without "looking under the hood".
So, if our contract specifies that, in the event of a dispute, we appoint the Shaman of Brooklyn to consult with the Spirits of the Dead to decide between us, then that result is enforceable by a court.
The only thing the court is going to ask is, "Mr. Shaman, did you consult with the Spirits of the Dead?"
And if he says "yes", then his decision stands.
This is why the American Bar Association opposes this nonsense.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Lets get back on track and go back to my last unanswered response to you.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I can only type so fast. But I did answer you above on the "personal definition of kosher" thing. In order to give meaning to a contract term, a court doesn't care about your "personal definition". The contract is to be interpreted objectively. So, absent a relevant statutory definition, then we are going to get some Rabbis to duke it out in court.
But since you are not the only one who latched onto an offhand example of the general concept of "subsidiary fact determination of religious law as a precedent to resolving a contract dispute" (of which it is possible to construct legions), I thought it worth pointing out that court enforcement of arbitration results is a MUCH MUCH bigger problem, and is one of the primary reasons why the ABA looks at this stuff with alarm.
WriteWrong
(85 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Your comment reflects a basic misunderstanding of arbitration.
Courts do not look "under the hood" of how an agreed arbitrator decided a case. They will only reverse an arbitration decision in extreme circumstances, such as someone paying the arbitrator under the table or other severe abuse of discretion.
If the parties, when they signed the contract, believed the Shaman to be capable of consulting the spirits of the dead, and they appointed him to do that in order to resolve disputes under the contract, a judge, who is not a Shaman, is not going to require the spirits of the dead to testify in court. The parties said they would abide by the decision of the Shaman, and the Shaman has spoken.
What some people forget is that while you have the right to go to court over contract disputes, you also have the right, in a contract, to agree not to go to court over contract disputes.
A court is bound to respect the right of the parties not to use a court to decide the dispute.
When someone takes an arbitration decision to court for enforcement it is to engage the apparatus of the state to do things like attach wages or seize assets pursuant to the arbitration decision. It is not to get a "do over" on the underlying dispute that was taken to arbitration.
No "sensible judge" would do any such thing as you suggest under the Federal Arbitration Act or corresponding state arbitration laws.
cali
(114,904 posts)Well, OK voters did, but that law was struck down. The only other state to do something this stupid was Kansas- Brownback just signed it, but it doesn't actually mention Sharia Law. Other states have considered it, but none have actually done it.
no_hypocrisy
(46,072 posts)I've read about bills, but don't remember if they passed.
cali
(114,904 posts)they're trying.
obamanut2012
(26,064 posts)libodem
(19,288 posts)They ban those polygamy compounds of RLDS all over the southwest. Those colonies of Menonites could harbor potential abuse as well. And those homeschooling ought to have regular inspections to make sure the kids keep up in school and are not exposed to really crazy Christian crap. Carry on.
mythology
(9,527 posts)their own extremist religious views on everybody else via trying to ban abortion and birth control. But I guess when the extremist looks like you, it's okay.