Jesse James and Debt Collectors

[Ichingcarpenter]

Jesse James once sought shelter at a lonely farmhouse. The widow there apologized for her poor hospitality. She said she had very little money and despaired of paying the debt collector, who was coming imminently to demand $1,400.

James gave her $1,400 and told her to get a receipt. Then he hid outside and watched the road.

The debt collector arrived, looking grim, and entered the house. A few minutes later he emerged, looking pleased.

James accosted him, took back the $1,400, and rode off.

http://www.futilitycloset.com/2007/11/18/triple-play/

[aquart]

1. I'd be real careful labeling this as history.

I notice your source doesn't provide a source. Jesse was big on self promotion and there's a pretty impressive body of mythology about him.

My favorite is the one where he hid out wearing a dress.

The likelihood of Jesse ever having $1400 at once is not great, btw. I think the gang's biggest haul was around $22,000 which was split between roughly 11 guys so it was possible, but not likely.

[rocktivity]

8. Lots of stories like this glamorizing criminals as folk heroes

Last edited Sat Mar 24, 2018, 11:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Al Capone is said to have been very charitable to local families during the (first) Great Depression. And there's a story about how John Gotti tipped a homeless man who helped shield him from a group of reporters. He opens his wallet and gives the man a bill, who gasps, "Fifty dollars!"

Gotti seems equally surprised: "That's a fifty? Sorry, didn't mean to do that." He opens his wallet again, gives the man ANOTHER fifty-dollar bill and explains, "I thought that was a C-note!"


rocktivity

[aquart]

56. Well, yeah. Who else would have the power or the bloody-minded arrogance to fight heavy money?

Other than the unions, that is.

So THINK, why would the monied publishers promote Jesse James while Frank and Cole and the others dropped from memory?

Because it promotes the right wing values of rugged, ruthless individualism.

While the truth is, no fight can be won alone. Except maybe the dark ones in your soul...but even for them we have AA and organizations like it. We fight better when we fight together.

[coalition_unwilling]

15. Where's your sense of myth and of archetype? This tale de-centers the

convenient and consensus views of who the real criminals are (and who really protects the people).

It's like the old sawhorse I trot out about NC Senator Jesse Helms every so often. Helms allegedly said on the Senate floor that "If English was good enough for Jesus, it ought to be good enough for the rest of us." Now did Helms actually say that??? Well, does it really matter???

[oldernwiser]

45. This just in from the Ministry of Useless Information

The quote: "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it ought to be good enough for the children of Texas", is attributed to Miriam "Ma" Ferguson, first female governor of Texas in 1924. Supposedly she was arguing against bilingualism.

However, there are traces of that quip going back to 1881, so she may not have been the original author.

[coalition_unwilling]

52. See, you're sort of illustrating my point. It's fun attributing said saying to

an antediluvian Southern Senator of our own day and age, especially when one considers that the historical Jesse Helms would have been capable of such a statement, even if he never quite made it

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. And those "hauls" were from banks farmers were depositiing their money with.

There's a reason an entire town turned-out to shoot the James' gang.

[aquart]

26. Yeah. It was a NORTHERN town.

Big fat mistake.

[Noodleboy13]

37. Northfield, MN

They used to do re-enactments back in the day, don't know if they do anymore.
But, yeah, don't try to take Sven and Ole's hard earned money.

peace,
Noodleboy

[hifiguy]

55. The outlaws got ventilated pretty thoroughly

by the Scandihoovians.

[RebelOne]

2. Gives meanings to the sayings "What goes around comes around"

and "Tit for Tat."

[MadHound]

3. Please stop buying into the romanticized myth of Jesse James

The man was a brutal, vicious, racist outlaw who couldn't except that the South had lost, and decided to take the war, his rage and frustration out on innocent victims in the Midwest. He is no more worthy of romanticizing and mythologizing than Nathan Bedford Forest, another Confederate who refused to let the war end, and continued to fight it by forming the KKK.

James, despite the myth, never gave away the money he stole, but kept it for himself, and then squandered it. He grew up in a family that owned slaves(part of the Little Dixie belt that runs across Missouri), and became a guerrilla soldier for the Confederacy, as did his brother Frank. These two were essentially bushwhackers, roving gangs of men who attacked homes, businesses and other easy targets for various reasons, carrying out personal vendettas, monetary gain, or just sheer sadistic joy.

Frank and Jesse continued down this path after the war, and how their brutality and cruelty ever came to be romanticized, I don't know. But these myths are false, and they need to be done away with.

[hfojvt]

4. it's almost like life is

an episode of the Brady Bunch

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0531075/

[Johnny Rico]

35. A clip from the episode: Jesse James guns down the Brady Bunch.

(and honestly, who can blame him?)

All of them except Bobby. This teaches him a Lesson.

[TheManInTheMac]

40. My first thought was of Bobby Brady too.

[jwirr]

6. I thougt about that to but laughed at the story anyhow. I think the legends were increased in the

Great Depression and the negative side which was known during the Civil War was forgotten. During the Depression they needed a Robin Hood more than a war criminal.

[Art_from_Ark]

12. The Jesse James movie that was filmed in the late '30s

starred Tyrone Powers as Jesse and Henry Fonda as Frank. With a cast like that, you've got to expect the James Gang to be portrayed as folk heroes rather than outlaws.

[aquart]

27. They were heroes in penny dreadfuls long before that.

Also, the incendiary device thrown into the James house which killed Frank and Jesse's 8 year old brother and forced the amputation of their mother's right arm was so egregious that even the Missouri legislature condemned it.

Not a brilliant move on the part of the Pinkertons who functioned as the private police force of the one percent.

[Art_from_Ark]

43. Oh, sure, there were the dime novels

that portrayed Jesse and Frank as folk heroes, but the movie with its stellar cast, shown across the nation, is probably what cemented the James Brothers' image as modern-day Robin Hoods. (It's also the basis for Pineville, Missouri's annual Jesse James Days festival).

The truth is somewhere in-between, no doubt.

[aquart]

49. No, my money is on Order #11.

General Order No. 11 is the title of a Union Army directive issued during the American Civil War on 25 August 1863, forcing the evacuation of rural areas in four counties in western Missouri. The order, issued by Union General Thomas Ewing, affected all rural residents regardless of their allegiance. Those who could prove their loyalty to the Union were permitted to stay in the affected area, but had to leave their farms and move to communities near military outposts. Those who could not do so had to vacate the area altogether.

While intended to deprive pro-Confederate guerrillas of material support from the rural countryside, the severity of the Order's provisions and the sometimes savage nature of its enforcement alienated vast numbers of civilians, and ultimately led to conditions in which the Rebel bushwhackers actually found themselves with even greater access to supplies than before. It was repealed in January 1864, as a new General took command of Union forces in the region.

[link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Order_No._11_%281863%29|

[Art_from_Ark]

51. Interesting

I spent much of my life just south of one of the affected counties (MacDonald), and never heard of Order #11. I never even heard mention of it at the Pea Ridge National Military Park, which is a Civil War battlefield just 6 miles or so south of the Missouri line. It certainly shines a new light on things and is worth further study.

[The Midway Rebel]

54. Maybe.

Order No. 11 did not affect James' home county, Clay County. Order No. 11 vacated Jackson, Cass, Henry and the northern part of Vernon.

I would lay money on his general haterd of Republicans after the war and the war itself for shaping the character and actions of Jesse James.

Recent research indicates that most of the banks his gang cane be credited with robbing in Missouri after the war were owned by Republicans.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Spot on.

My dad, who was a history teacher and an expert on local history, told us the same thing 50 years ago. He took us to most local historic sites but we never went to see any of the Jesse James places.

He was a brutal and violent criminal.

I feel the same way about John Brown. He is idolized by many for his abolitionist views but he was a murderer whose actions were no better than his enemy's.

[coalition_unwilling]

16. Whoa there. Frederick Douglass disagrees with you 100% about

John Brown, as does Henry David Thoreau.

Douglass: "His zeal in the cause of freedom was infinitely superior to mine... Mine was as the taper light; his was as the burning sun. I could live for the slave; John Brown could die for him."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29

Thoreau: "He (Brown) did not recognize unjust human laws, but resisted them as he was bid. . . . . No man in America has ever stood up so persistently and effectively for the dignity of human nature. . . ."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p1550.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I'm sure he does.

Murder kind of negates his good works, IMO.

[coalition_unwilling]

21. At a certain point, I guess we must fall back on core principles and, at that point,

I'm unsure whether there is much point in further discussion.

So, rather than ask you to change your opinion, I would merely ask you whether you can use your sympathetic imagination to conceive of a mind-set that, in its time, saw slavery as such an 'evil,' such a moral abomination, that its abolition could justify even murder. Please understand that I'm not asking whether you believe that the abolition of slavery justifies murder but rather whether you can maybe understand why great figures like Douglass and Thoreau could sympathize with, and even idolize, Brown and why Brown himself could hew to his beliefs, even though Brown was nominally 'Christian.'

I guess what I'm trying to say about myself as much as anything is that, had I lived in 'bleeding Kansas' or just across the border in Missouri, I'm not sure where I would have landed on the issue of abolition (or of expanding slavery into the territories). So I personally cannot judge Brown outright with blanket condemnation. Thoreau's and Douglass' opinions suggest to me that the issue is fraught with much moral complexity and ambiguity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. I'm a native Kansan.

John Brown is part of our heritage. And yes, he's a controversial figure.

I just never bought into the idea that murder is okay if your enemy uses it to win. And John Brown was perfectly willing to kill innocent people when he attacked Harper's Ferry.

[coalition_unwilling]

24. Brown's actions in Kansas and Missouri are far more problematic, imo, than

his actions in the raid on Harper's Ferry.

You say that John Brown "was perfectly willing to kill innocent people . . . " I wish I could say that I saw into Brown's mind, heart and motives with such clarity. Stephen Oates' biography To Purge This Land With Blood paints the picture of a deeply troubled Brown, one we might even call by today's standards 'mentally ill'. (Don't have ready access to the biography at the moment, so am relying on memory from reading it again a couple years ago.)

When we firebombed Dresden during World War II, we killed many innocent people. But I think most of us would agree that the cause of stopping Hitler and the Nazis rendered such deaths somewhat more justifiable. I suppose there are radical pacifists who would argue that the cause of stopping Hitler did not justify the loss of even a single innocent. But their (radical pacifists') number is probably statistically almost a zero.

Now look what you made me do.-- I've gone and triggered Godwin's Law! On a positive note, our sub-thread here demonstrates why history, done properly, is far more than names and dates.

[aquart]

11. Well, you would know if you bothered to read anything about what went on in that area then.

The James brothers were in a border state and there were vicious crimes committed on both sides leading up to war and horrific war crimes ON BOTH SIDES during the war. Pretending the murder only went one way is ridiculous.

Jesse was painfully young when he followed his brother Frank into the raiders. Check out what happened to his stepfather. After the war, check out what happened to his little half-brother. And his mother. Yeah. AFTER the war.

We get all bent out of shape over what we did to Japanese-Americans during World War II. But we also removed whole families from their land and homes during the Civil War. The James family was part of that removal.

And calling Jesse a racist is a bit selective since pretty much EVERYBODY was racist, anti-semitic what-have-you back then. I mean, "That's real white of you" was an expression, along with phrases like "free, white, and 21" and "white slavery."

He was a cold-blooded killer during a very bloody war. Afterwards raiders like James weren't welcomed back into the civil fold like regular Confederate soldiers. That meant real economic hardship. And it's not like the banks and railroads were decent god-fearing citizens back then. They were hated for damned good reason. Every time bad Jesse and his pals did bad to a bank or a railroad, cheated everyday citizens got a thrill.

No, everyday citizens didn't share in the money. The gang members divided it amongst themselves and it never amounted to all that much but it was more than they could have got otherwise. Always better to own a bank than rob one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Since MadHound lives in the state, I'm sure he knows the history

I've lived here all my life and I also resent the hero worship for Jesse James. Not everyone who lives here and knows what went on in this area is a fan of James or his brothers.

[MadHound]

25. Umm, I live in Missouri, I know far too well the evil that was the James brothers

Not only have I read about it, but have heard first hand accounts of how bushwhackers and ridgerunners would rape and pillage. Quatrill's raiders, of which Frank James was a member, wreaked havoc throughout this state, and were nothing more than terrorists. The gang led by Bloody Bill Anderson, which both brothers joined, also terrorized this state. These weren't soldiers, they were terrorists that killed, raped, burned and pillaged, not out of a sense of serving the South, but rather for personal gain and to satisfy their own vicious appetites.

I know full well what Missouri was like in those days, my family history in this state goes way back(there are two towns named after family members). I know that this state was a battleground, pitting neighbor against neighbor, but even for the standards of the time, Quatrill and Anderson gangs stand out for being particularly loathsome. There is a reason the James brothers couldn't go home, they had committed terrible crimes against neighbors, even family.

Yes, Jesse was young when he entered the conflict, but there were lots of young men who joined up. They didn't rob, rape, murder and steal. Yes, there was racism in Missouri, and the country at large. But not everybody in the state was a racist, nor did everybody own slaves.

Jesse James and his brother had choices, and they made bad ones. They chose the life of being a terrorist, thief and murderer. That isn't due to their background, their circumstances. They could have chosen a life much different, after the Civil War there were many opportunities, especially out West. But instead, they chose to continue to loot, kill and murder people. There is nothing good about that, there is nothing romantic about that, and frankly those who defend the James brothers are indulging in historical myopia out of some sort of romance.

The cold facts are that you are putting a rapist, thief and murderer up on a pedestal. Never a good idea.

[aquart]

28. Rapist? Okay, that's a new charge to me.

I'd appreciate a source and a link.

[MadHound]

29. It is well know that both Quatrill's Raiders, and Anderson's group raped women

Frank and Jesse belonged to each of those groups respectively, as did the Younger brothers.

There are many stories in Missouri of members of the James Gang raping women.

Sorry that I'm destroying your hero, but hey, that's the chance you take when you choose to idolize a murdering thief who liked to loot and pillage.

[aquart]

30. He's not my hero.

But he is someone I had to spend years learning to understand.

Recognizing someone's humanity is not idolizing.

It may be "well know" what Quantrill and Bloody Bill Anderson did but I prefer links, sources, TESTIMONY to the game of telephone you are playing.

I repeat: this is the first rape accusation I have ever read against Jesse James and I am asking you to back it up.

[MadHound]

31. Go do your own research,

The facts about Quatrill's raiders and Bloody Bill Anderson are out there in plenty. The stories about James and his gang are out there as well. Vance Randolph would be a good place to start. No links, you're just going to have *gasp* read a book, since all of this is old history in the state, and as such hasn't been digitized.

As far as recognizing someone's humanity, that's nice and all, but I prefer to celebrate the humanity of James' victims. Why couldn't he recognize that as well, instead of killing them in cold blood?

Frankly I think that your years of learning to understand James were wasted. You obviously don't have the complete picture of the man, or what he did. Instead you've chosen to focus on the romanticized version of his life, the gallant outlaw screwing it to the banks. Sorry, but that simply isn't reality, that's fantasy.

[aquart]

32. Well, Quantrill forbade rape.

And a quick google (rape Quantrill) will gived sourced reports of the Lawrence Massacre in which men were murdered in front of their mothers and wives BUT NO RAPE.

So when and where did all this raping take place?

Missouri is the SHOW ME state? Show me.

I truly detest lazy calumny.

BTW, how come Frank "Shakespeare" James, who spent more time as a raider than Jesse, was allowed to live out his life in peace?

[MadHound]

38. Like Google is the be all and end all of proper sources

Puleeze, go pull out some books on the subject. Don't just look at the Lawrence Raid, but also his time in Kentucky, and especially his winter in North Texas. Do your research, educate yourself.

As far as Vance Randolph goes, he was much more than a folklorist, but a respected historian as well. If you have access to JSTOR you can enlighten yourself.

But hey, keep holding up murderers, rapists and thieves as role models, that will get you far.

[aquart]

42. Role models?

What fantasy conversation are you responding to?

I asked you to source your accusation of rape. Now is this Quantrill in North Texas or Bloody Bill
Anderson? Or Jesse James? To whom does "his" refer? What year?

I find JSTOR is happiest with specificity.

Also, a good Google search string will bring up JSTOR articles. At least, it has in the past for me.

I am happy to discover that there is bounteous and reliable factual material on Jesse James even if it comes too late for my thesis.

[aquart]

46. Finally a reference to "ill-gotten gains"!

Yet not a word about rape. Sigh.

[link:http://www.newsbake.com/j1510/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=638:raider-quantrill-arrested-for-north-texas-crimes&catid=51:commentary&Itemid=78|

[aquart]

48. Vance Randolph was born TEN YEARS AFTER Jesse James was murdered.

Not a man likely to have fresh or first-hand information.

[aquart]

34. Vance Randolph the FOLKLORIST???

Uh, I'm asking about documented HISTORY, not cheerfully retold myth.

[aquart]

36. The thing about history, btw...

Is that even if what you are reading is OLD, you still need to find out if it's TRUE.

[aquart]

44. About the looting....(pillage and loot are pretty much synonyms btw)

Just as a general question...HOW? It's not like they were driving trucks. I'm perfectly willing to believe it but I need you to tell me how it was done? Did they confine themselves to things they could put in their pockets? Lightweight paper money? Thin gold chains?

My recall is that they had a problem with graceful exits.

Now Sherman's guys took food. THAT was impressive.

[The Midway Rebel]

53. I live in Missouri too.

I also study the Border War and have for years and I have read most all of the academic work in this area and I am familiar with the few primary sources. In fact, I am currently pusuing an MA in this very topic.

Yes, lots of plunder and pillage...but, can you point me to the evidence that Bushwhackers in Missouri made a habit of raping women? That info would make a very interesting conference paper.

[JVS]

14. That reminds me of the bad guys from The Shadow Riders.

[oldernwiser]

47. buzzkill! :) (n/t)

[Go Vols]

50. Forrest

is hardly mythologized or romanticized such as Jesse James.He did not form the Klan,in fact,he disbanded it after being a member.

[Strelnikov_]

5. This thread needs a song!

&feature=fvwrel

[panader0]

9. How about "Pretty Boy Floyd The Outlaw"

I heard it by the Byrds on 'Sweetheart of the Rodeo', but I think it was a Woody Guthrie song.
"You say that I'm an outlaw,
you say that I'm a thief.
Well here's a Christmas dinner for the families on relief."

[SharonAnn]

17. "Some rob you with a six-gun, some with a fountain pen"

[HooptieWagon]

10. 1400 was a tremendous amount of money then.

Its unlikely a regular person would owe that much, or that anyone (even a train/bank robber) would carry that much. The story sounds dubious...

[jtuck004]

13. Jesse James was a piker. MI$$ Rmoney took $100 million from workers, some of whom were widows,

Last edited Tue May 29, 2012, 04:13 AM - Edit history (1)

and gave it to his friends, who specialize in debt.

(well, ok, more, but then he just sounds evil)

[a kennedy]

20. Boy am I way off on this one......I thought you meant the Jesse James married to Sandra Bullock.

Sorry,

[aquart]

33. A mere cousin, I think.

But I swear they have the same eyes.

[slackmaster]

39. Real people who work in debt collections are among the lowest paid and most abused workers...

...in the financial services industry.

Working conditions are often terrible - Constant pressure, crowded, uncomfortable environments, low base pay with intense competition for incentive bonuses. Even senior collections people who perform well make a lot less money than other people who have less difficult customer service positions.

On top of the crappy working conditions and low pay, collectors have to deal with some of the most hostile people on the planet. Of course the customers are having a hard time themselves, and a lot of them don't hesitate to take it out on anyone who attempts to negotiate with them.

If you enjoy getting cursed at, screamed at, lied to, and threatened constantly, maybe collections is for you. I wouldn't last a day.

[GObamaGO]

41. My guess?

I really do not think that Jesse James and his ilk really had enough "honor" to tell the woman to get a receipt so she could be cleared of the debt and the James gang could steal back the money.

Pretty much a legend to make James look much better than he actually was.