Russian pilots were shot dead as they parachuted to Earth. This just got way worse.

[Are_grits_groceries]

@BNONews:
BREAKING: Russian pilots ‘shot dead’ as they parachuted from plane https://t.co/uLne9MmB1N https://t.co/rlEneGkh15

[librechik]

1. what is BNO News?

[LiberalArkie]

8. BNO from Wiki

BNO News is a news agency based in Tilburg, the Netherlands. It provides news wire services to companies and managed a popular Twitter account until December 2009, when it had approximately 1.5 million users.

The company was founded by Michael van Poppel of the Netherlands in May 2007, and the company was mainly based on the Twitter social networking site until December 2009 when it announced plans to launch a subscription-based news wire service to media organizations.

The company also announced it would end its Twitter-based news service and transfer the management of the account to MSNBC.com as of December 1, 2009. It had nearly 1.5 million followers on its last day, making it one of the most popular news services on Twitter at that time. The Twitter service was maintained by a number of journalists from the Netherlands, Ireland, Mexico, and the United States.

The subscription-based news wire service was launched in late January 2010 and provides news coverage to MSNBC.com, Thaindian News, W. R. Berkley and other companies. A Mauritian-based news website, Island Crisis News, announced on May 31, 2010 that it has also become a client of BNO News and is the company's first client from Africa.[1]

[Are_grits_groceries]

11. "Breaking News On"

It is a news site in the Netherlands. It has been very reliable.

[librechik]

14. thanks--I found a Reuters link below. Soon to be confirmed, no doubt...

Unsubstantiated claim, apparently, but a very dangerous situation.

[polly7]

2. Omg ....

What a disgusting, cowardly act. RIP to those two men and condolences to their families.




What are they trying to provoke?

[maxsolomon]

37. What is who trying to provoke?

The Russian Jet bombing ground targets?
The Turks shooting them down?
The rebels shooting the parachuting pilots?

Which act was cowardly again?

[mwrguy]

80. Cowardly? Cowardly is...

Dropping bombs on children in Raqqa.

[thereismore]

3. I don't believe it. The "rebels" would love to get them alive. nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

4. Who was shooting? Turks? Kurds? Syrians?

I hope it wasn't us.

[Chan790]

6. Syrian Turkmen rebels.

from the article:

Alpaslan Celik, the deputy commander of a Syrian Turkmen brigade, told reporters near the Syrian village of Yamadi that the bodies of both pilots had been found. “Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air,” Celik was quoted as saying by Reuters.

Celik was holding a piece of what he said was a pilot’s parachute, Reuters reported.

The comments came as a video surfaced that appeared to show the shooting. In it, numerous rounds are fired into the air as two parachutes descend. In the background, a man can be heard shouting in Turkish, urging people to stop shooting so the pilots can be taken hostage.

So not us or the Kurds. Probably not Turkish military. Ethnically-Turkish Turkish-speaking anti-Assad forces most likely. (I say "most likely" because we can't rule out Turkish military posing as rebels.)

[Renew Deal]

9. Did they land in Turkey or Syria?

And where did the planes crash?

[Chan790]

17. Syria.

Likely based on even Turkish reports: Shot at the border, but probably just inside Syrian airspace.

Known: Planes crashed in Syria. Bodies landed in Syria.

Edit: Edited to include this link to Muriel Volestrangler's post in another thread that gives a good visual reference of the area and situation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7377109

[msrizzo]

28. A question...

So Turkey shot down the plane but the rebels shot the airmen as they parachuted down?

[Chan790]

32. That seems to be the case, yes. n/t

[librechik]

7. what do you mean by "us?"

it's not entirely clear in that area.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

24. By "us", of course, I mean Democrats

kidding.

But it wasn't us. Chan790 provided details, though I'm still a little befuddled by the various players in what seem to be a slew of micro-conflicts in the area, in addition to the few bigger ones.

[librechik]

26. If the Turks did it, it was "us"

Turkmen savagery aside, Putin is not ng to be happy that a NATO country shot down their warplane. And it is of course the scenario that I have feared since Russia entered the battle.

There is a causus belli in some ways of seeing it. And it doesn't take much for the bloodthirsty war marketeers to push us over the line. Lots of money for them!

Brinksmanship is a dead man's game.

[saturnsring]

31. Casus belli is a Latin expression meaning "An act or event that provokes or is used to justify war".

Casus belli is a Latin expression meaning "An act or event that provokes or is used to justify war".[1]

for those, like me, who didnt know what casus belli meant

[LanternWaste]

33. Unwarranted incursion into sovereign airspace is indeed a causus belli

Unwarranted incursion into sovereign airspace is indeed a causus belli, but I doubt Ankara will respond as such.

[darkangel218]

63. They shot the plane down in matter of seconds

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-entry-turkish-airspace-lasted-seconds-u-official-164618732.html

[LanternWaste]

71. And Moscow has been repeatedly warned over the last 72 hours to avoid Turkish airspace

And Moscow has been repeatedly warned over the last 72 hours to avoid Turkish airspace due to several other incidents by Russian air command.

[darkangel218]

72. That still doesn't explain why the plane was shot down within matter of seconds.

They knew where the plane was going/where is coming from, and that it wasn't about to bomb Turkey.

This was a premeditated action on part of Turkey, to take the Russian jet out. No question about it.

[CentralMass]

76. If the jet had been hitting targets near the Turkish border that Turkey did not want hit, they may

Waited for the jet to stray into their airspace. Just speculation.

[darkangel218]

77. Its more than obvious that Turkey has a problem with Russia going after ISIS.

It was obviously a premeditated strike/order.

[CentralMass]

84. Th Russians are also htting non ISIS Syrîan rebels who are trying to over throw Assad.

[darkangel218]

85. ISIS is trying to "overthrow" Assad.

So maybe Russians know what they're doing.

[bluedigger]

90. In this case Russia went after Turkmen who had taken a Syrian government position.

Both Turkey and Russia were protecting their own interests, with ISIS nowhere to be found. There are more sides in this dustup than a scorecard can track.

[Chan790]

5. Sometimes, I think "The Turks can't possibly find another way to be the pain in the ass of NATO."

Every time, I am wrong.

I could see if they'd shot them down for a major incursion but they shot them down inside Syria where the plane and wreckage landed inside Syria following a most-likely-incidental incursion which just clipped an irregular border-line resulting in an incursion of mere seconds, a minute at-most. That'd be like if I shot everybody whose arm or backpack incidentally passed off the sidewalk into my front yard for trespassing.

Y'all realize they're going to ask us to fix this for them or expect we're coming to their aid when Russia shoots down their planes over Syria as "hostiles", right? I don't think it's too much to ask them to stop fucking with Greece and to work towards a resolution of their Kurdish problem (I do realize that likely means forcing them to give back part of a theoretical Kurdistan.) if they're going to expect us to clean up their mess.

[pampango]

10. "Turkmen forces in Syria shot dead pilots of downed Russian jet". Russia has been bombing Turkmen

areas of late. I imagine there is a lot of ill will towards Russian pilots but shooting prisoners or pilots parachuting is evil.

From last Friday:

Turkey summons Russian envoy over bombing of Turkmens in Syria: PM

Turkey has summoned Russia's ambassador in protest over the "intensive" bombing of Turkmen villages in northern Syria by Russian warplanes, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told reporters on Friday.

In the meeting with the ambassador, Andrei Karlov, Turkey called for an immediate end to the Russian military operation, which is near the Turkish border, the foreign ministry said in a statement.

"It was stressed that the Russian side's actions were not a fight against terror, but they bombed civilian Turkmen villages and this could lead to serious consequences," the foreign ministry said.

Ankara has traditionally expressed solidarity with the Syrian Turkmen, who are Syrians of Turkish descent.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-russia-idUSKCN0T91MO20151120

I wonder if the Russian plane shot down today was bombing Turkmen close to the Turkish border.

[librechik]

12. Here is a Reuters link

http://news.yahoo.com/warplane-crashes-syria-near-turkish-border-haberturk-tv-074131995.html

buried 5 or so paragraphs down, reported as a tribal Turkmen claim

[cwydro]

13. How awful to shoot them in the air like that...

Completely defenseless.

[bluedigger]

91. Well, they had been bombing people, after all.

People who probably felt pretty damn defenseless.

[cwydro]

92. I know that. I'd probably feel the same toward them.

But even in Vietnam, they let them land...took them prisoner, or killed them then.

These guys were luckier than that Jordanian pilot they put in a cage and set on fire.

War is hell.

[madville]

15. I guess I would take getting shot

Over getting burnt alive on video or slowly beheaded.

[Democat]

16. Is Saudi Arabia and member of NATO too?

With friends like these who needs enemies?

[iandhr]

19. Saudi Arabia is not a NATO member

[darkangel218]

53. But they might as well be.

They have our "protection" 100%.

[polly7]

18. Vladimir Putin vents fury as Turkey downs Russian jet and pilot is shot at while descending

in parachute.

PUBLISHED
24/11/2015

Speaking at a meeting with Jordanian King Abdullah II, Mr Putin accepted the king's condolences on the death of a Russian pilot who was reportedly captured and dead.

Mr Putin said the Russian SU-24 jet was shot by a missile from a Turkish jet over Syria about one kilometre (just over half a mile) away from the Turkish border, which he described as a "stab in the back by the terrorists' accomplices".

He warned that the incident would have "significant consequences" for its relations with Turkey and criticised Ankara for turning to Nato to discuss the incident instead of first explaining to Russia what happened.

Jahed Ahmad, of the 10th Brigade in the Coast, said the plane's two Russian crew members tried to land in their parachutes in Syrian government-held areas after they ejected, but came under fire from members of his group.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/vladimir-putin-vents-fury-as-turkey-downs-russian-jet-and-pilot-is-shot-at-while-descending-in-parachute-34229190.html

[Ex Lurker]

21. Reports now that the rebels have shot down a Russian search and rescue helicopter

This shit is spinning out of control.

[polly7]

22. FFS.

[darkangel218]

52. .

this is nuts, isnt it?

[LanternWaste]

73. Putin seems overly emotional, and rather hysterical

Putin seems overly emotional, and rather hysterical. Calmer heads would have heeded Ankara's warnings over the past 72 hours as soon as the first one was made. Unfortunately, no one can point to Putin as a model for rational behavior...

[panader0]

20. Haven't the Russians been bombing these rebels?

Still not smart to kill them. They would have more value to the rebels if alive.
In no way do I condone their actions.

[packman]

23. Damn, that's sickening

Barbarians - recalls images from WWII of men parachuting down and being strafed by enemy planes.

[darkangel218]

50. Thats exactly how i feel.

the word barbarians fits them perfectly.

[mike_c]

54. with all due respect...

...it's worth noting that those pilots were killers who themselves bombed and shot people on the ground. This is more a case of babarians killing one another. Those pilots were not innocents. They were combatants who are normally out of their victim's reach.

[darkangel218]

55. And by the Geneva protocol, they should have been aprehended and held as POWs

Not shot in cold blood when they couldn't even defend themselves.

[mike_c]

56. no, not if they were armed and were not surrendering...

Of course neither of us knows whether they had dropped their weapons before ejecting over hostile territory, but neither could their erstwhile victims on the ground. The pilots where still combatants. That's the risk you take when you bomb people.

[darkangel218]

57. They were shot IN THE AIR, as they were parachuting.

The pilots were not combatants any longer. Their plane was shot over TURKEY, and crashed in Syria. They were literally executed in cold blood. I cant believe you're defending this.

[mike_c]

58. I understand that....

The question is whether or not they were still belligerent. Yes, it is a war crime to shoot pilots descending from a plane in distress, but it is expressly NOT a crime to kill troops descending by parachute, even if their plane is in distress. Look it up if you don't believe that.

But aside from that, the pilots were themselves guilty of flying missions against the people who killed them. I can't gin up much sympathy when officers with "the bravery of being out of range" find themselves making a slow, exposed descent over the folks they were killing just minutes before.

[darkangel218]

61. I hear you. I blame Turkey for shooting the plane to begin with.

They weren't bombing Turkey. They just flew over their airspace. That alone shouldn't be a good enough reason to take down a jet. They obviously hate the fact that Russia is fighting ISIS in Syria. That is the reason Turkey took that plane down. is it really that simple.

on edit: they were over Turkey only matter of seconds before they were shot down http://news.yahoo.com/russian-entry-turkish-airspace-lasted-seconds-u-official-164618732.html

[LanternWaste]

74. Putin chose to ignore international law and protocol... it really is that simple

Ankara has been issuing warnings to Moscow for more than 725 hours. Putin alone chose to ignore international law and protocol despite the warnings... he is irrational, and is implicitly and directly to blame.

Putin has ignored treaties relevant to Turkish airspace, international law as it applies to airspace, and direct warnings from Anakara to cease flying in Turkish airspace... yet you rationalize this as Turkey's fault?

Creative justifications, indeed.

[darkangel218]

75. If you are going to shoot down a jet, at least give them time to clear your air space!

They took that plane down like it was a practice target!
Russia is out to fight ISIS, while Turkey is protecting ISIS.

[darkangel218]

62. And read this, for clarifiation:

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-entry-turkish-airspace-lasted-seconds-u-official-164618732.html

The Russian plane was shut down only seconds after entering Turkish space.

[mike_c]

66. well again, in fairness...

...it's worth remembering that it wasn't just "a jet" straying off course a bit-- it was an armed military war plane that deliberately violated Turkish air space. And there is little love lost between Turkey and Russia. I don't blame Turkey one bit. Try that in this hemisphere and see what happens. There is a war raging next door and the border is on a war footing.

[darkangel218]

68. It doesnt matter what type of plane it was! you give them time to change route!

You don't shoot them down within matter of seconds! They knew were the Russians were carrying out their missions, and that it was in Syria. Russia had no records of attacking Turkey in recent past. So why shoot them down, if not deliberately??
You do understand that it was a deliberate action, and not a self defense action.

Turkish military is probably celebrating now.

[Ed Suspicious]

78. Who balances with turkey against russia? I don't know

the political landscape, but i do remember from an international class that this doesnt happen without Turkey having allies.

[Blue_Tires]

25. Fucking morons...

The pilots had high value for a prisoner exchange or whatever... Now those clowns just signed their death warrant....

[darkangel218]

27. Yup,

And some are still defending Turkey.

[LanternWaste]

29. As well as Moscow...

As well as Moscow...

[Igel]

35. One of these things is not like the other.

And since there are two, it's not a problem to point to the dissimilar things.

Downing the plane is defense of airspace. After repeated warnings that Russian pilots have ignored (they have rights but not responsibilities), they were fired upon. That's on their heads and those of their commanders.

Killing the pilots as they parachuted down doesn't have the same status. However, not all tribal cultures have signed on to the Geneva Conventions or the ideas of "modern" warfare.

At the same time, without defending the Turkmen tribesmen, I can understand them: These were their enemies, those who (impersonally) were trying to kill people just like those who did the shooting. If the Russians had touched down, would they have just surrendered or engaged in a firefight that could have killed Turkmen? It's really a strange idea to say, "Hey, they were trying to kill me, so I'll be nice to them. Heck, I'll even let them shoot at me and maybe kill me, just out of fairness. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt--maybe they won't try to kill us, and if they surrender maybe Russia won't launch a raid that gets us killed when we don't just practice catch-and-release."

[randome]

39. It was the Syrian rebels who killed the pilots, not Turkey.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[darkangel218]

41. Turkey shot the plane down.

[randome]

42. If they gave warnings that were unacknowledged, like they said, I don't fault them for that.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[darkangel218]

43. You don't fault them for shutting down a plane on a mission to kill ISIS?

O..K.

[pampango]

46. The Russians have been bombing Turkmen in the area, not ISIS, for the past week.

Do you fault the Turkmen for shooting down a plane that was bombing them? OK.

[darkangel218]

47. Turkmen didnt shoot the plane down. Turkey did.

[pampango]

48. Fair point. But the Russian bombers had been bombing, not ISIS, but Turkmen who were fighting ISIS.

Who was helping ISIS?

[darkangel218]

49. Jeebus Christ..

[pampango]

65. You seemed to believe that the target of the bomber was relevant. I agree.

You don't fault them for shutting down a plane on a mission to kill ISIS?

O.K.

The 'mission' of the plane is, as your post indicates, relevant to the discussion. What if the bomber's mission was to kill ISIS' enemies? Does that matter as much as if its mission was "to kill ISIS"?

[darkangel218]

67. The bomber's mission was not to "kill ISIS enemies".

Where are you getting that from???

[pampango]

69. From the articles detailing that Russia has been bombing Turkmen rebels for days rather than ISIS

for days because Assad's army is attacking the Turkmen with Russian air support.

This is from last Friday. There are many more articles if you care to look them up.

Turkey summons Russian envoy over bombing of Turkmens in Syria: PM

Turkey has summoned Russia's ambassador in protest over the "intensive" bombing of Turkmen villages in northern Syria by Russian warplanes, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told reporters on Friday.

In the meeting with the ambassador, Andrei Karlov, Turkey called for an immediate end to the Russian military operation, which is near the Turkish border, the foreign ministry said in a statement.

"It was stressed that the Russian side's actions were not a fight against terror, but they bombed civilian Turkmen villages and this could lead to serious consequences," the foreign ministry said.

Ankara has traditionally expressed solidarity with the Syrian Turkmen, who are Syrians of Turkish descent.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-russia-idUSKCN0T91MO20151120

The Russian air support has been effective in the Turkmen area since Assad's forces have captured at least one village in the past week.

[darkangel218]

70. maybe thats where ISIS were hiding.

Turkey still had no business in shooting down a Russian jet within SECONDS of entering the Turkish air space. This reeks to me as a premeditated action on part of Turkey.

Thank you for that link.

[EdwardBernays]

30. Breaking News!

Assholes behave like assholes.

Turkey is awful, Russia is awful and the Syrian rebels are awful.

If Saudi Arabia was somehow involved it would be the icing on the asshole cake.

[eppur_se_muova]

34. Just a reminder ... Russia and Turkey were on opposite sides in WWI.

Of course, that was Czarist Russia and Ottoman Turkey, but cultural memories tend to gloss over such niceties.

Oh, and this was not their first little donnybrook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russo-Turkish_wars

Suffice it to say that Russians are unwelcome on Turkish soil -- or airspace -- to a degree that some Westerners may not adequately appreciate. The Russians, for their part, often conflate the Turks with other groups from western and central Asia with whom they have warred for centuries -- and they have actual pan-Turkism to worry about as well.

Every wonder why Turkey is the only majority Muslim country in NATO ?

[Chan790]

36. I always assumed it was because post-Ataturk Turkey was nominally a secular Democratic Republic.

That is, I assumed it was shared Western political values versus Soviet Communism.

I knew of Russia and Turkey's military past but I assumed it to be less of a factor. Given though, they don't like each other.

[eissa]

38. I didn't realize "secular democratic republic" engaged in genocide

Pretty sure the Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks would disagree with the Turks presenting themselves as having "western political values."

[Chan790]

45. Two things.

1.) Ataturk promoted Turkey as having secular values and being a Democratic Republic. Whether he was full of it is a matter for observers.

2.) If we're any metric, or the French or Brits...then being genocidal and militaristic would be a clear reflection of "western political values."

[DFW]

64. The Armenian Genocide was during the Ottoman Empire (1915)

The Empire wasn't abolished until 1922 and the secular republic didn't come into being until 1923.

To this day, far from all Turks have western political values, including, significantly, the current president. Of course, the same could be said for half the current members of our Congress, too, so we can't take that as the ultimate standard.

[eppur_se_muova]

44. Think more "the (new) enemy of my (centuries-old) enemy is my friend." nt

[Xithras]

59. Russian dislike of the Turks goes back much further.

The Crimean Tatars were major slave traders who destroyed many Russian cities and enslaved more than a million Russians and eastern Europeans in a process they called "harvesting the steppes". For more than 300 years the Crimean Khanate, acting as an agent of the Ottoman Empire, would stage massive slave raids into Russian territories, killing people as they went. During one period, it's estimated that more than 20,000 Russians a year were being stolen away to the Turkish slave markets. This engendered a serious cultural hatred in Russia toward the Turks (and to a lesser extent, the Tatars). Even today, Russian elementary schoolchildren are taught that the Tatars and Turks once oppressed and destroyed Russia.

You remember how, in American history in the third grade, you were taught that America was founded because the English wanted to tax us unfairly? Well, in Russia, they teach third graders that the modern Russian nation exists because the Turks and Tatars would march into Russian towns, take every marketable human being as slaves, and kill anyone not worth taking. They are taught that Peter the Great and Catherine the Great are "Great" because they ended Russia's servitude and suffering under the Golden Horde and Ottoman proxies.

The Turks, in turn, are taught that Russia stole half of "their" empire, and then depopulated large chunks of it by killing or driving out its original Turkic inhabitants. Because Turkey was originally founded by Turkic nationalists, Turks were long taught that Russia held the original homeland of the Turks, and that it was every Turks duty to try and reclaim that homeland (the original homeland of the Turks is believed to be the steppe along the Altay mountains in modern day eastern Russia and Kazakhstan).


It's a bit of an understatement to say that the Russians and Turks have a long history of hating each other.

[eppur_se_muova]

60. Yep, see the link to Wikipedia in my post. Centuries of bad blood. nt

[WillyT]

40. Reuters Reporting It Now...

Link: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-shooting-idUKKBN0TD1TM20151124

[Octafish]

51. ''They massacred my boy.''

Is what that guy said about Sonny.

In real life, the feeling is the exact same: Nothing in the world will bring back the infinity that was lost -- for family, friends and everyone -- when the pilot in that photo died.

[polly7]

81. Exactly, Octafish. nt.

[Octafish]

83. War

I post this only out of respect for Col. Joseph Rippetoe and his son, Capt. Russell Rippetoe, who gave his life for our country.

http://arlingtoncemetery.net/rbrippetoe.htm

[Renew Deal]

87. What are Syrian Turkmen?

Are they Turks from Turkey or Syrians of Turkish decent?

[cemaphonic]

93. The second

Though there are likely Turkish national agents running around there right now as well.

To be more precise, Syrians of Turkish ethnicity - they may not descend from anyone who lived inside the modern Turkish borders, but Turks as an ethnic group exist from Egypt to Western China.

[6chars]

79. Putin will bow down to Erdogan

after apologizing for breaching Turkish airspace. Thus he will ensure that other countries do not rush to judgment about Russia exceeding its humanitarian mission.

[forsaken mortal]

82. Turkey violates the airspace of Greece constantly

Maybe Greece should start killing Turkish jets now. That Russian plane was only in Turkish space for a few seconds and it isn't normal to fire on planes that do that, especially when you aren't at war. Turkey is just being an asshole and Russia will probably ensure their bombers are escorted by jets prepared for air to air combat now. I'm guessing any Turkish plane that locks a radar onto a Russian jet might be retaliated against immediately now.

[malaise]

88. Well if you can wage illegal wars, torture people and bomb hospitals

all the rules of war are long gone.

[roamer65]

89. Turkey is going to lose planes if they try to bomb Kurds.

That is how the Russians will retaliate.

[polly7]

94. +1,000,000. nt.