Switzerland overwhelmingly votes for burqa ban with £6,500 fine for Muslim women who rebel

[philosslayer]

Muslim women can no longer wear the full-body garment in shops, restaurants or public buildings and anyone caught flouting the ban could be struck with a £6,500 fine.

The local government of Ticino approved the referendum after the Swiss Parliament ruled that the ban did not violate the country's federal law.

Two in three voters in the canton backed the move in an overwhelming result for a referendum, in the wake of heightened terrorist alerts across Europe.

The law which MPs voted for only applies to veils which covers the body from head to foot worn by the 40,000 Muslim women in Switzerland and also applies to all tourists visiting the area.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/622037/Switzerland-votes-burqa-ban-fine-Muslim-women


Somewhat disappointing. I thought the Swiss were a bit more tolerant.

[LittleBlue]

1. Europe is not a progressive utopia

France has a similar law.

[patsimp]

3. Try having women show their elbows in those countries that mandate the coverings.

see what happens

[LittleBlue]

12. Not sure what you're talking about

or how it relates to my post.

You replied as if I'd said Islamic countries are progressive. What a bizarre inference to assume about my post.

[leftynyc]

45. I think the poster

is pointing out the ounishment for NOT wearing the burqa in some Islamic countries is far, far worse than a fine for wearing it. I have no problem outlawing those fucking things. Just an attempt to disappear women.

[patsimp]

99. thank you for understanding what i was trying to say.

[Alittleliberal]

134. That's not the point

If you have the freedom to not wear one in a country you should have the freedom to wear one.

[leftynyc]

139. No

We're making a direct comparison between punishments. A fine versus beatings and sometimes death. I know which one I'll save my outrage for.

[Alittleliberal]

141. Well I'm young and full of energy

I have plenty of outrage for both. I'm fundamentalist for civil rights and the government shouldn't be legislating clothing choice. Woman being abused and killed in Islamic countries is horrific. There's no justification. But in a free country people should have to right to follow their religion as they please. I agree with you that the vast majority of woman who wear these things are either being forced or are essentially brainwashed into thinking it's what the have to do but let's not pretend banning the Burqa is going to do anything other then fine woman for being in a shitty situation. This is punishment designed as help. And it's anti freedom. And that sucks.

[leftynyc]

144. I completely understand

Your position and used to agree with it. But I can no longer pretend that all cultures are equal. And if telling these misogynist pieces of crap that disappearing their women is not acceptable and we're going to judge it harshly, I think that's as good a place to start as anywhere.

[Alittleliberal]

145. I don't think all cultures are equal

I think Muslim oppression of woman is deplorable. I just think this is a fluff law that makes some of us feel better and doesn't actually change that oppression. Literally all it does is turn woman into criminals for being oppressed. That's counter productive and honestly I think makes it harder to convince the Muslim world to come into the 21st century. If Islamic woman are going to shed the Burqas for good it's going to have to be because they choose too.

What westerners need to do is provide access to educations, opportunity and provide a safe space for the dialogue of ideas. Critical thinking will break fundamentalist Islam, banning symptoms of the root problem is only going to further entrench the fundamentalists.

[leftynyc]

149. All excellent points

However I don't think women are choosing to wear the burqas so it's not up to them to choose not to. Pretending it's okay that men are the ones doing the forcing is not helping them at all.

[Yorktown]

50. ^^^ spot on ^^^

[jwirr]

177. I think there are some Catholics in all of our countries that

have forgotten about the head scarf that women used to have on in order to go into the church. I think that has pretty much gone out now but in the 70s it was still a rule. The rule was based on a verse in the Bible requiring women to cover their heads. I also think that long haired bare heads was a sign of a prostitute back then so it was a way of differentiating themselves.

Ironically that may be where the Islam religions custom comes from also.

[ScreamingMeemie]

190. Chapel veils.

I had one as a girl, and if I was visiting my grandmother and forgot it, she would pin a handkerchief in my hair. You could also get away with a hat. In Catholicism, it was a symbol of a woman's submission/obedience to Christ. Men did not have to wear hats because they were the image of God and therefore perfect in his presence (and no, I'm not capping that h

[jwirr]

195. I knew a bit about it because I often went to services with

my Catholic friends. Darn men they always get away with everything.

[bettyellen]

196. In Russia they are still serious about this- and have a lattice screen at the entrance where they

have some scarves tucked in to borrow at many churches and cathedrals. I still have one I forgot to return.

In Italy, they were more concerned with cleavage, and I initially got turned away for wearing a tank top (not really low either) and I had to go buy a large scarf to drape over my lady parts, LOL. (Every church has people selling them right outside) I don't recall them being concerned about the head. Spain either.

[Hestia]

203. Plus, long unbound hair was considered to be witchcraft, as the witch wasn't "bound" in her magics,

i.e, knots, pins, buckles, etc. (Skyclad (nude) was order of the day, which is why so many medieval woodcuts show witches as nude.)

Women were/are forced to prove their piety by wearing a head covering of some sort, from full burkas to a simple loose one, depending on which country you are in.

As an aside, this type of thinking is why Orthodox Jewish (Hasidim) women wear their wedding rings on their right pointing finger - they are bound from doing witchcraft with that ring.

[jwirr]

208. Yes, most of the customs we women have and hate came

to be in some attempt to control us. Think bra!

[A HERETIC I AM]

52. Bullshit.

OK, sure, it isn't a "Utopia", but being progressive includes shedding 10th century nonsense.

Good for Switzerland.


RULE OF THUMB;

If your religion requires absurd head wear/gear, hair cuts, clothing, facial hair, diet, and/or the subjugation of one or more sub-groups of humans, or the mandatory forcing of your beliefs on other people, you need to re-think your religion. Also, just because you believe a particular thing or set of things you hold dear, when you move to a new land, you can not expect the residents of said land acquiesce to your every silly whim in the above regards.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

76. You group two completely diffterent things together.

"absurd head wear/gear, hair cuts, clothing, facial hair, diet,"

"and/or the subjugation of one or more sub-groups of humans, or the mandatory forcing of your beliefs on other people"

I do have an issue with the second part, but I couldn't care less how they dress, their facial hair or what they eat. Forcing people to conform on those does not seem very progressive.

[A HERETIC I AM]

84. How do the vast majority of Europeans dress?

How do the vast majority of the residents of Europe conduct themselves?

Is that conduct in any way similar to an even moderate Islamic lifestyle?

Who was there first?

Why the hell should the modern Germans, Swiss, French, Italians, Swedes, Dutch, Poles, etc. etc. COMPLETELY modify their way of life in the year 2015 in order to not offend a group of people who, for lack of a more delicate way of putting it, are stuck somewhere between the 6th and 12th centuries?

And yes, we white people forced the North American Aboriginal to accommodate our ways and it was a mistake. Lets not allow the same thing to happen in Europe.

As the old saying goes, 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do.'

[cwydro]

87. ...

[Drahthaardogs]

91. Because its DU, and here the Pope is cursed out vigorously because he won't allow women to

be priests, yet a religion that routinely stones women to death for adultery and allows fathers still kill their daughters if they dishonor the family is defended, and those who speak against it are called narrow-minded bigots...

[ohnoyoudidnt]

102. Can you show me a post where a Duer has defended stoning a woman or killing a daughter?

[leftynyc]

136. While the ooster

May have used hyperbolic language and shouldn't have, DU is well known for those who use cultural relativism to excuse behavior in Islamic countries they would howl at the top of their lungs about in any Western country. Some think we're obligated to accept all manner of disgusting misogynist rules elsewhere because the West isn't a utopia...like forcing women to disappear themselves in order to control all aspects of their lives. I'll never pretend that's okay

[ohnoyoudidnt]

150. I don't agree with forcing women to wear them.

While some may by coerced and that is despicable, it is my understanding that some wear them by choice and I do not believe that choice should be denied. The response that I originally replied to in this thread seemed a bit ethnocentric as it also criticized their hair and diet choices. If I was convinced all burqa wearing women in western countries only wore them because they were forced, I would reconsider my position. If that was the case, I think the abusive husbands would just make their wives stay inside rather than change their beliefs and let their women go out without them.

[leftynyc]

155. I honestly don't think

They're worn by choice in the VAST majority of cases. They're forced by the men who use a holy book like a weapon..a holy book that says nothing about a woman covering from head to toe. While I agree the law could lead to some negative repercussions, the time has come to stop pretending the controlling of women, including using clothing to disappear them, is not acceptable in th west.

Spencer Tracy gives a great speech during Inherit The Wind where he says that progress always has a few negative consequences. But that's the price of progress. His argument concerned teaching evolution (the Scopes trial) at the expense of having to question your faith. Progress almost always causes some pain.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

160. You have given me something to think about.

I always try to defend find the position that is most just. I could argue against security concerns or because the 'that isn't the way we like it here' reason, but there is no question about the subjugation of women in some societies and the burqa is a part of it. I have a hard time supporting rules that say you can't do something, as long as that something doesn't hurt anyone else. This situation is a little different. You moved me closer to your position.

[leftynyc]

163. That's the nicest thing

Anyone here has said to me in a long time.

[patsimp]

104. well put

[patsimp]

100. You are right.

[pangaia]

111. So when you go to Saudi Arabia, will you feel the same way...?

When in Rome? Just curious..

[A HERETIC I AM]

123. I've lived overseas, OK?

I've lived in Athens and Australia. We would NEVER think of imposing our beliefs on the people who were our hosts.

So yes, when in Rome. If I lived in Saudi Arabia I wouldn't insist the government or the population treat me special because of my beliefs.

And FWIW, I have NO DESIRE to visit that backward ass country.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

124. So people allowing someone to wear a Burqa is completely modifiying their way of life. OK. nt

[A HERETIC I AM]

128. My point....------> .

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......................................................................<--------the distance it missed you by.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

152. The thread and your response I replied to is about dress.

So can you elaborate on who has to 'COMPLETELY modify their way of life' (your words) if someone wears a burqa in public?

[A HERETIC I AM]

156. Ya got me. Fair enough. It was hyperbole writ holiday alcohol large.

My larger point is the one I made in post 52;

RULE OF THUMB;

If your religion requires absurd head wear/gear, hair cuts, clothing, facial hair, diet, and/or the subjugation of one or more sub-groups of humans, or the mandatory forcing of your beliefs on other people, you need to re-think your religion. Also, just because you believe a particular thing or set of things you hold dear, when you move to a new land, you can not expect the residents of said land acquiesce to your every silly whim in the above regards.

And yes, a burqa qualifies as absurd.

[jwirr]

178. I hear what you are saying but you forget that we still have

groups in this country that are allowed to wear items that are cultural. Example would be the Amish who dress mostly in dark clothes and long dresses. They also still use horse and buggies for transportation.

Another group would be Native Americans - they dress for Pow Wows and often wear jewelry that they have made themselves. Hair styles are often different also. One of our graduating Natives wore a costume to graduation. I could add many more cultural items but it is not necessary.

I agree that it would have been better to let them keep their culture rather than force it and I also think that is what needs to be done with everyone including these women. If we force it then there is resentment - by allowing cultures to change in their own way there is a lot of better.

[LittleBlue]

121. Being progressive doesn't include forcing people to wear European dress

Everyone should be able to wear their religious dress if they want. Your brand of progressivism is just old fashioned authoritarianism repackaged.

If I wanted to wear medieval dress, should I be fined as well?

[riderinthestorm]

125. Its not religious, its cultural

Secondly we do make rules about what women can wear in public. For example can you go about your public life topless in the US?

No.

Although topless women are the norm in other cultures like Aborigines or the desert tribes of the Kalahari, its not the norm for ours. We can and do make laws regulating public dress in the public square. I see no reason why the burqa and its place in western society shouldn't get the same discussion.

[w0nderer]

138. if you wanted to wear a full face mask

say a ski mask (same effect as a burqa)

including when going into a bank, postal office
court house, daycare, school
or
when pictures are taken of you for ID
when driving and stopped by police

then yes, you probably should be fined
most likely though, you'd just be shot...
at least in the US

why not just do fingerprints? (common argument on the burqa thing in europe)
the reason facial recognition is used instead of retinal (more precise) or fingerprint also more precise

is.....you can do it on the street, instantly!

oh we have a suspects retinal print...let's call in every person in the country and check them (20 years later one case is solved, possibly)
oh we have a photo of a suspect...let's hand it out and keep a look out on the streets (if the face is seen, suspect is taken in for questioning) usually a lot less time

oh and i do wear medieval dress on a monthly basis, it's called SCA :-p

so practical, not 'anti-progressive'

[Quantess]

129. It isn't?

Well that all depends on which liberal values you prioritize, doesn't it?

I see it as valuing cultural acceptance over the inherent human rights of women and gays. Take your pick!

[patsimp]

2. Good for them.

[smiley]

5. Really?

Would you support the same laws here in the U.S.?

[randys1]

28. I am sure these types would. Makes me fucking SICK to hear that shit, though

[patsimp]

101. yes

[smiley]

113. yikes

that's scary.

[randys1]

26. Hate them Muslims, do we?

[leftynyc]

46. Hyperbolic bullshit

Plenty of Muslims would be the first to tell you there is nothing in their holy book about disappearing their women under a tent. I also have no problem outlawing those misogynist things.

[patsimp]

103. Thanks - well put.

[840high]

114. ...+1

[Quantess]

167. Agreed!

[Squinch]

56. Randys1, you and I usually agree, but I disagree with you on this one.

Requiring burquas is just a flat out abuse of women in my book, and it also cultural and has nothing to do with the Muslim religion. Their use just coincides geographically with some Muslim areas. So saying that not liking burquas means you hate Muslims is incorrect. I hate burquas, and I have no problem with Muslims. I have a problem with people who want to erase women's identity who happen to be Muslim, but I have a problem with people from any religion who want to erase women's identity.

[randys1]

82. I am sure you are right, I agree.

[hifiguy]

109. Exceedingly well said.

[w0nderer]

143. well put

part of the reason

also, facial recognition is crucial now a days for law enforcement and similar
sad possibly, but it is

any one not believing this try going through the day with a ski mask (possibly alaska or middle of nowhere allows this)

Gun 'nuts' in texas are catching some heat on this same site...for carrying open carry guns and being
'cowards' for covering their faces (tactical scarfs) outside a mosque ...i agree..they shouldn't!!!

but heh..there is some hypocracy here


in western culture..too bad so sad but that's where they are..covering face is considered a 'no no' unless at a masquerade or possibly a large demonstration

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

97. No problem with a head covering.

I wished I looked as lovely as many of the Muslim women I see around here.

On the other hand, it's just fine with me to ban anything that conceals the face and makes the woman become invisible.

It's fucking freaky, imo.

[w0nderer]

146. seems to me (haven't read original text)

but seems to me that the swiss law will allow covering hair

it's FACIAL covering they have a problem with

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

171. Yes, I'm fine with the law

I have no desire to impede on anyone's religious practices, but religious practices are not absolutely protected in this country, either. I'd be fine with banning the burqa here. The burqa goes too far.

[patsimp]

105. i wonder how covered muslim women feel about women in a bathing suit

[pnwmom]

162. No. I support women's equality in the public sphere, which cannot be

achieved by clothing that restricts their vision and prevents them from recognizing their own sisters and friends on the street. (In addition to overheating them during warm weather and preventing them from exercising.)

Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper was able to hide her in plain sight for a year by forcing her to wear this kind of garment in public.

Clothing like this prevents women from taking their spot as equals in the public sphere. I think France and Switzerland have valid reasons for not allowing it.

[Politicalboi]

35. These women should decide for themselves

Just imagine your clothing not being appropriate in a foreign land. It's not a punishment for some women to wear a burka. We see it that way, but it's not. Making laws that one knows nothing about should be against the law.

[leftynyc]

47. If I thought for even one second

They weren't being forced to wear them by their fathers/husbands/sons/brothers, Inwould agree with you. Nothing in their holy book about disappearing their women.

[A HERETIC I AM]

57. I have come to the conclusion that European Christianity came about.....

because several generations were tortured, beaten, slaughtered, burned and otherwise had nasty things done to them by "The Church" so that sooner or later, a generation said "OK...FINE! I give up! I'll believe what ever the fuck you want me to believe, just don't kill any one else that I know and love!"

Islam spread pretty much the same way.

Frankly, Arab men and those of Arab descent must have really tiny dicks, because there simply is no other explanation for their fear that their women might stray, thus required covering up while in public. Why is it that the European/new world cultures evolved to treat women differently in this regard?

[pangaia]

115. "Frankly, Arab men and those of Arab descent must have really tiny dicks,...."

What a sick comment.

[A HERETIC I AM]

122. Thanks!

I'll be here all week.


Try the Veal

[jberryhill]

75. So arrest and fine the women!

Great idea!

[leftynyc]

130. Enable their oppressors

Let them think we don't give a shit...great idea.

[jberryhill]

135. This law has no impact on men

[leftynyc]

142. It's telling them

Their forcing their women to disappear is not okay. We HAVE to start somewhere and ignoring it..or even worse, pretending it's acceptable is not an option for a progressive.

[riderinthestorm]

170. I disagree that this law has no impact on men

Men who believe a woman should be disappeared in public will be profoundly impacted by a law that says she has the right to live unshrouded.

It's the same with FGM. It's a cultural practice that has no place in our world. Banning it by law however much it appears to just target women, in actuality the presence of a clitoris matters as much to men as women (or at least it should).

FGM laws do indeed target women with fines, and even prison, but sometimes that's how tough societies need to be to change deeply held (wrong) cultural beliefs.

Burqas amputate that part of a woman that says they are strong, powerful and independent person in their own right. I see that as very, very destructive to all society and certainly a cultural practice that deserves the same treatment as FGM or spousal abuse or child labor etc...

[MADem]

51. They're not allowed to decide for themselves. Their husband or male leader of their

family makes those decisions. They are simply doing as they are told. They have not been raised to understand the concept of choice.

[dhol82]

112. Ummmm, when I went to Iran

I had to get a visa picture with my hair covered. When I entered the country I needed to be fully covered and have a head covering (God forbid that I should show any hair) to be able to even get in.

How, wearing a burka, can you not consider this a punishment?

By the way, wearing a head scarf in summer is a punishment all by itself.

[Hortensis]

43. More slide into fascism, Patsimp. You probably

haven't thought this through. That government can choose your clothes, too, you know.

[Squinch]

168. "You probably haven't thought this through."

[Marrah_G]

4. So what if the woman has to wear one because of the men in her family?

Either she never leaves the house, or leaves the house and get either a big fine or a beating from her family members.

Any way you look at it, the woman (as usual) is the one who pays the price.

Any man so zealous and cruel as to make a woman wear a burqa is not going to say "oh you don't have to wear it now because of the law" A burqa is not a headscarf or even a veil....it is something that makes her a non-person. Women required to wear one are also required to follow a ton of other rules regarding interaction with other human beings.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

24. There needs to be some community resources to help these women

if they are in such abusive relationships.

[MADem]

55. There is no community resource. It's ostracism, death, or go along and get along.

It's essentially slavery. Do as you are told, when you are told. If you're "lucky" you can have a son that you dote on who makes it his business to smooth your path when you are elderly, but that's a long wait for any relief from an untenable situation.

This IS a problem in Islamic society. It is not a "cultural difference." It is a problem of discrimination and abuse of persons owing solely to their gender.

[get the red out]

63. Thank you!

Great post.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

65. Yes, but if they are living in Switzerland

It isn't by law that this is happening. It is domestic abuse. There can be resources for to help them, if the country chooses to make them available. I don't agree with the fine for wearing burqas. That isn't going to help anyone. It is kind of like fining a woman for being abused by their husband. I think they need to go about it differently.

[MADem]

67. There are still no resources. Leave your family and culture and put yourself in the hands of

strangers who do not speak your language? Just not happening. This situation would only occur if a husband was arrested after police came to a home where domestic abuse was happening, and there were no other males in the family who to 'take over' and issue orders. I've seen this kind of situation before--it's very corrosive and it keeps happening because of conditioning. I should imagine it takes a lot of therapy to get over the idea that you were born to be "less than."

People wonder why things like "honor killings" (which should be called DIShonor killings, IMO) can possibly happen in 'evolved' societies like USA, UK or Canada. It's because the culture is insular and the women are conditioned to limit their own freedom.

Since a woman who is wearing a burqua or a chaderi would not be out and about without her husband, and the husband controls the money, HE would a) talk to the ticketing policeman and b) pay the fine--not the woman. Then the woman would, if the man could not adjust, be stuck at home and the man would have to do ALL the shopping, most particularly the grocery lifting, hauling, etc.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

71. So are you telling me the answer is to just allow this to continue

because there is nothing that can be done. Just give up on those women? I think the government does need to push back and intervene in cases of abuse. I don't have all the answers, but doing nothing will never result in the situation changing. I don't think the fine is the appropriate solution either. The government should probably consult with other Muslims (ones that understand that extreme culture, maybe grew up in it, but were able to separate themselves from it). People that were once insiders to the culture can help them determine the best solutions for getting women out of these abusive situations and prevent these situations from happening in the future. If there is compulsory public education in the country, that will make a big difference in changing the minds of the youth. Somehow the message has to be sent to these people that you are in a different country now and you will have to give up certain old ways that are not acceptable in this country.

[jberryhill]

73. No, the answer is to arrest and fine the women

I agree with everything said about how forcing women to wear things decided by men is an abomination.

I do not agree the answer is to make criminals out of the women.

That's the disconnect here.

Those women are being horribly abused, so let's join in and abuse them further.

It's not the men who are being penalized here.

[PatrickforO]

117. Yeah, and don't forget about the horrible concept of 'honor killing'

That just sucks and needs to be outlawed worldwide ASAP.

As does female genital mutilation.

If this shit's 'cultural' then there's something really, REALLY wrong with those cultures.

I've got a better idea than foisting off all this bullshit on women...How about the men learn to control themselves. You know, if you see a woman's face, legs or arms, it doesn't give you license to rape, flog or stone her to death.

[MADem]

164. I know some very 'on trend' young Persian fellows--they and their

wives/girlfriends are entirely modern, most have been pretty much raised in an American environment with a Persian cultural milieu (post 1979, at any rate). To a man, they love my suggestion that we should force these fundy idiots to wear a lined black chador on the hottest day of the year and see how long THEY can last in the heat of the sun.

A website that is banned in Iran but people get to it anyway is called MY STEALTHY FREEDOM. Women take off their hijab and send in photos of themselves. The women are challenging this hijab law constantly in Iran. It depends on where you live how much it's enforced. Up in the rich sections of northern Tehran you can get away with more, especially if you are the child of someone famous or important. In other cities or neighborhoods you're in for a world of hurt if you violate the laws.

https://www.facebook.com/StealthyFreedom

[jberryhill]

74. No, the women need to be arrested and fined

Which makes all kinds of sense, and gets strong support here.

[Squinch]

90. While I don't necessarily agree with the fine, it would not be the women who are fined.

If a woman is wearing a burqua, it is very unlikely that she is allowed to work outside of her home. That being the case, it would be the husband who is requiring her to wear it who would be paying the fine.


ETA: I would rather the punishment be that the husband of the woman who wears it in public also has to wear one. That would stop it in its tracks pretty quickly.

[jberryhill]

95. Okay...

...and who is going to testify he made her wear it.

As it stands, this law only affects women.

[Squinch]

148. But she has no money. He would have to pay it. No one would have to testify that he made her

wear it. It's like if a house wife or house husband who doesn't work outside the home gets a parking ticket. The spouse who makes the money pays it.

[randys1]

29. Great point, as usual the Woman is caught between a backward thinking male and his

idiotic fucking religion and a group of white people who are afraid , as usual

[passiveporcupine]

161. What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that cultural traditions

can be just as strongly held and believed as religious rules. Many of these women have dressed this way since they were old enough to be required to. It's their culture...the only one they've known their whole lives. What if the women want to wear them? What if it's more comfortable for them because it's all they know? I have a friend who worked in Muslim countries and with women who wore burqas and he said they liked wearing them. They liked that their hair and clothing stayed clean when they were walking around dirty dusty streets. I'm not sure that is the real reason they liked them, but whatever their reason, they defended them.

It would be better to say Muslim women are free to dress like other Europeans and their families cannot force them to wear their traditional garb, if they choose not to. Once given a choice, it won't take long (a generation) before all the young women will rebel against the old tradition.

I don't think this is why this law is being enacted. It's a safety issue, because in full garb, you don't know who or what is under that burqa. It could be a woman strapped with dynamite, or a man. You won't be able to see their faces, so they are anonymous and can hide their nervousness and/or fear. I believe this is just a safety issue and has nothing to do with women's rights.

After what happened in Paris, I can understand many people are afraid of Muslims and dressed in a way that keeps them anonymous can be taken as threatening or too large a risk for society. Peaceful Muslims look just like ISIS. How are you supposed to tell them apart? But is that a fair reason to tell them they can no longer wear their traditional clothing? They need to have a legitimate reason that is shared by everyone, not just Muslim women.

The point remains, unless they pass a law that nobody in public can dress in a way that makes them anonymous, it would not be fair to just apply it to Muslim women. You can hide behind a ski mask if it's really cold outside and you are anonymous. You can be going to a furry convention and be totally hidden inside a fox costume and you are anonymous. You can be wearing a motorcycle helmet with a dark visor. Saying that these women cannot wear their burqas because it's not safe is profiling Muslims.

So just pass a law that says your face must be visible at all times, except under certain conditions, like a blizzard or you are on a ski slope or something.

Even if this clothing style is a tradition and not a religious requirement, is it fair to ask people to no longer wear their traditional clothing, as long as it doesn't break an existing dress code? And if you are going to create a new dress code, because of ISIS, make sure it doesn't just apply to one group of people. Write it in such a way that it affects everyone and is not specific to just one culture.

[Android3.14]

70. ^^THIS^^

That is the problem, exactly.

[Marr]

77. I expect they want such men out of Switzerland. And I can't say I disagree with them.

The views espoused by such religious fundamentalists are fundamentally at odds with mainstream western ideals. I think western democracies should start being less accommodating and welcoming to religious nonsense.

[BlueMTexpat]

6. Ticino is not a terribly liberal

canton. But it is NOT by itself Switzerland.

The headline is misleading. The Swiss people as a whole did not vote for this ban.

Here is an article with a better - certainly more accurate - headline. http://www.thelocal.ch/20151124/mps-back-hefty-fine-for-wearing-burka-in-ticino

Frankly, in the 21+ years I have lived in French-speaking Switzerland, I have probably seen fewer than five women wear a burqa here - and I live in what is probably the most international area in the country.

This is a lot of fuss about a "problem" that doesn't practically exist.

[think]

34. Thank you for your input. Very much appreciated. /nt

[pampango]

54. I see it is governed by conservative parties and is the only

Swiss canton to adopt such a law.

It is not hard to imagine one of our GOP-governed states doing the same thing.

[Comrade Grumpy]

173. And many on this very board are down with it. n/t

[pampango]

175. Sad but true. n/t

[NCTraveler]

7. Bigots.

And this will lead to the increased abuse of women in an already abusive system.

[riderinthestorm]

8. The Swiss prize conformity. For Example there's an "approved list" for naming children

And Swiss authorities must approve the name you select for your baby.

I can imagine the disapproval of a burqa in public in Switzerland.

Anyway this is an excellent article written about the anti-minaret law that passed in 2009 in Switzerland but is easily applicable to this burqa ban

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-ammann/the-real-reasons-why-the_b_373947.html

The surprising vote reveals rather a growing unease in Switzerland, which traditionally has been one of the most open and most tolerant countries of the continent: Many Swiss are worried about the rise of political Islam and religious rules in Europe that are threatening hard-won rights such as equal rights for women and men, the secular rule of law above religion or the right of each individual to decide for him -- or herself.

A majority of Swiss voters obviously feels that there are problems with Muslim integration into civil society at the moment. This vague sentiment was fueled by a number of incidents over the last years: The former Imam of a mosque in Geneva, Hani Ramadan, a Swiss citizen by the way, publicly justified the stoning of adulterers or the punitive amputation of the hand of a thief. Muslim parents prevented their daughters from attending swimming classes, gymnastics or summer camps in public schools because they didn't want their girls to be together with boys. Media reports about forced marriages, female genital mutilations and "honor killings" of Muslim women - all confirmed by authorities or in court -- came as a shocking surprise. A university professor even went as far as to suggest in an official publication of a federal commission to introduce elements of the Sharia, the Muslim legal system, into Switzerland.

Snip

It would be utterly wrong -- and dangerous -- to think that this was primarily a racist vote. I'm convinced that the post-electoral analysis will show that a significant part of the (anti-racist) left and an overwhelming majority of the women supported the ban -- not because they are afraid of minarets, but because they are worried about the role (some would say: about the oppression) of women in Islamic societies and about the role of religion in public life. This is, in my opinion, an entirely legitimate discussion that we have to have and must not suppress.

Switzerland is a good place to start with it. You hardly find a more "multicultural", open and globalized country in the Western hemisphere. The small, landlocked country in the middle of Europe has 7.7 million inhabitants, 1.7 million (or 22 percent) of which are foreigners. There are an estimated 400,000 to 450,000 Muslims living in Switzerland -- almost three times as many as twenty years ago (1990: 152'000). Islam is today the second largest religion after Christianity with roughly 150 mosques all over the country.

[meaculpa2011]

14. I love Switzerland, but OMG...

do they prize conformity.

On the surface it appears somewhat appealing, but when you scratch the surface it's a little creepy.

I've traveled on business many times and it's orderly, clean and the Swiss very courteous, if a bit cold.

I went to a public pool in the mountains and they rang a bell periodically for "adults only" time.

The kids dutifully left the pool without any additional prodding. Just like here.

I could never live there.

[yeoman6987]

27. Our pool at the club did that to when we were younger.

Not a big deal but we couldn't wait to get back in.

[BlueMTexpat]

44. The title of the article is

misleading. Ticino is only one canton in Switzerland and the law only applies in that canton.

You are correct about passage of the anti-minaret referendum. But ALL of the French-speaking cantons opposed that referendum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_minaret_referendum,_2009

Generally speaking, the French-speaking cantons are more liberal than the others. In fact, the cantons of Geneva and Vaud together comprise most of the international population in the country - due to the presence of the European HQ of the UN and most of the UN's Specialized Agencies, as well as other international organizations such as the International Organization for Migration (IOM) and the International Committee for the Red Cross (ICRC). Thus, their populations likely include more Muslims than anywhere else in the country.

It goes to show that in Switzerland, as in the US, those who have the least exposure to foreigners and their different cultures and religions are among the most fanatic in opposing them. Ignorance is practically a disease.

Those of us who actually live among them (I live in Vaud) know that they are human beings just like anyone else and deserve to be treated accordingly.

Does this mean that I favor the burqa? Personally, I do not at all favor a full burqa - for security reasons principally.

I have no problem with head coverings that show one's face, however. We are living in an age of heightened security and being able to see an individual's face seems to be a reasonable precaution, so long as one religion/culture is not singled out specifically.

I understand that the Ticino law specifically singles out Islam, which can cause problems with Swiss federal law. And, as I mentioned in a response above, during my >21 years in the most international part of Switzerland, frequented by many ME tourists, I have seen full burqas on five or fewer women.

Generally speaking, most ME women are delighted to visit/live here because they do not have to wear the coverings they most often must wear in their home countries. Many of them are working within their own cultures to improve the situation of women there. Those are the women we should be encouraging and helping.

I am also old enough to remember when it was a requirement to cover one's head in a Catholic church if one was a woman. That requirement only changed in the 1960s after Vatican II.

As for prizing conformity, in my experience in Switzerland, it is less conformity than being a good and responsible citizen who respects the rights of others that counts most.

[riderinthestorm]

72. I realize its only one canton. Thanks for your excellent perspective! nt

[Eleanors38]

182. Might check out #6 and ensuing comments.

[daredtowork]

9. Does the Quran say anything specific about burqas?

The sexist rules of the Bible can be met by a little lace doily on a woman's head. Even if there is a demand for face covering as well, that can be done with a delicate scarf - no need for full metal body gear.

[riderinthestorm]

10. There isn't. It's a cultural garment, not religious

even the requirement for a headscarf is questionable in the text.

[randys1]

30. So not even a religious requirement, just an asshole MALE Requirement

did not know that, makes sense though

[juxtaposed]

32. i knew that.. ditto on the rest.

[snagglepuss]

39. Historically female face covering was only done by wealthy women as a symbol of

superiority over the dirty masses who were deemed unfit to see the faces of wealthy women. Conveying a sense of superiority remains a motivation today, a sense of moral superiority.

[patsimp]

107. you got it

[leftynyc]

48. No

And that's why I support the law. I understand the point about not bringing attention to yourself (I think it's bullshit but whatever). But what could possibly bring more attention than dressing in a tent that even won't let you see properly in a western country. Nobody with a brain has a problem with a head scarf (hijab).

[woodsprite]

11. I find it oppressive that the burqa is usually black, while the men wear the lighter colors

Anyone who has been outside in the sun for any length of time can attest to the fact that black clothing absorbs heat, while white (or lighter) clothing is cooler.

[redgreenandblue]

79. Actually, for flowing clothes, at worst it doesn't matter and at best black is preferential.

With flowing robes the cooling happens through convection. The black color can help reduce the reflection of infrared waves originating from the body.

There are plenty of articles about that on the web.

A burqa is actually a very practical piece of clothing if you are in a desert. Protects from heat and from sand as well.

[FLPanhandle]

13. I like it.

Of course, as an atheist I think all these religious headgear things are stupid and should be done away with.

Switzerland is making a stand as a secular country that isn't going to be cowed by religious groups.

[cwydro]

25. I'm gonna go with you.

The women who wear those coverings probably would prefer not to.

At any rate, they are ORDERED to, and that's enough for me.

[Squinch]

59. Really, though, no one has any problem with a head covering. It's these tents that

obstruct the vision and erase the person. I don't have any problem with banning them. I think they are clearly abusive.

[get the red out]

64. +1

I was pleasantly surprised to see people posting contrary to what liberals are supposed to think on this subject.

[cwydro]

88. I agree.

Making women hide is absurd.

Cowardly men in that culture in my opinion.

[pangaia]

118. As one poster has stated twice,

it is not all of Switzerland but one Canton only, perhaps the most conservative one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs,

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I would say that being afraid of women's clothing is a mark of insanity.

[yuiyoshida]

16. I have seen Burqa worn here in San Francisco

People here don't even give it a second glance, ..well maybe the tourists do...I would wear a Kimono and geta if I could afford it!!

[KittyWampus]

17. Nobody gives a full body burqa a second look? I have to doubt that

Last edited Thu Nov 26, 2015, 11:16 AM - Edit history (1)

What's the difference between a hijab, niqab and burka:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241

[yuiyoshida]

18. I have walked around the downtown

Financial district, and seen women wearing the Burqa and two women were walking together. No one even looked up. Tis true.

[Go Vols]

20. I don't think I could tell who

would be in there,man or woman.

[juxtaposed]

33. same repression, No less I feel

[Squinch]

61. I think it is very, very different. A burqua erases a woman's identity. And that is its purpose.

[MADem]

53. Even the simple chador is OBVIOUS as hell.

The most subtle is manteau and scarf--that can look like a cold winter's day with the right sort of styling....

[arcane1]

176. I frequently see women here in burqas walking their kids to elementary school

It's refreshing to see the kids dressed just like all the other kids in the school, and refreshing to know they are being exposed to kids from so many different cultures and nationalities every day. I can't imagine those little girls growing up and adopting that outfit.

[JI7]

19. but they can still wear headscarf and other things ?

[KamaAina]

21. Every woman in Ticino should wear one

like Danes did with Hitler's yellow Star of David.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Yes. +1

[leftynyc]

49. So all women

Should engage in wearing that misognyist piece of crap to show solidarity? Solidarity with whom? The men who make the cultural norms that FORCE these women to disappear themselves? Not on your life. The comparison to Jews being forced to separate themselves by wearing yellow stars is ludicrous.

[KamaAina]

96. That made it impossible for the Nazis to identify actual Jews.

More than just "solidarity".

edit: I agree it is a misogynistic piece of crap. I remember seeing a woman wearing one in a supermarket in Jersey City back when Christie Todd Whitman was governor, and practically wanting to tell her "You're in New Jersey! A woman is governor!"

[leftynyc]

131. I agree what the

Last edited Thu Nov 26, 2015, 10:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Danes did was awesome and showed solidarity with their Jews. I just don't think this is a comparable situation. One was being forced by their government to separate themselves. These women are being forced by rules not mandated by their holy book but by their men who want to control them. I can't show solidarity for that.

[pangaia]

120. I love it.. :>))))

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

23. We have a lot of Somali Muslims in my community.

None of the women wear burqas. I never thought about it until now. They wear hijabs and full length skirts, but never seen a burqa. I'm wondering how the burqa wearing women/girls get along. No one sees their face in public. I couldn't imagine them attending public school or working. I suppose most of them don't do those things. I think I agree with banning burqa's because I think if you are going to be in public, you shouldn't disguise your face unless it is Halloween or you have some medical reason for doing so. I think it is antisocial. I can't figure on how I could make friends with a woman in a burqa. If I never see her face, I really don't now her and can't recognize her. Maybe by voice? I don't know it maybe possible, but I don't think likely. I think burqa wearing teaches women that they don't matter. OP talks about being tolerant, but how much women hating should we be tolerant of?

[Squinch]

62. There are many women who wear them in an area where I work. The burquas are freaking hazards.

The women can't see properly and they are very long, so they make navigating a city street ridiculous.

"How much women hating should we be tolerant of?" I totally agree with you there. These things are not religious, they are cultural garments from a culture that hates women and wants to restrict their interactions with anyone except their husbands. I don't feel the need to support that culture, and I certainly don't feel the need to show solidarity with it.

Those here who are saying that it is loss of freedom to ban them are really missing the point. The purpose of the burqua is to eliminate the freedom of those who wear it, and to underscore the husband's ownership of everything about the wife.

[redgreenandblue]

80. Actually, the burqa is a practical piece of clothing for a person living in a desert.

It protects from sun, heat and sand.

You are right, they are not originally religious, they are functional.

From a purely practical standpoint, it doesn't make much sense to wear one outside of a desert.

[Squinch]

94. Ain't no way anyone should be crossing a busy Bronx intersection with three or four kids in tow

in a garment that doesn't allow them to have any peripheral vision or to move quickly.

I can see how it might be useful in a desert, though. But I think it's purpose is much more to indicate the husband's ownership of the wife given that, practical as they may be for the desert, men never wear them.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

98. And they are ridiculous in high heat and humidity

I wouldn't leave my house for six months of the year if I had to wear a burqa.

I see women in Houston in burqas in the middle of hot and humid August, and it makes me want to scream.

Thankfully, I don't see many.

[riderinthestorm]

127. Many desert tribes wear little to nothing - Australia, Africa

Even pre-colonial America.

They also dont have misogynistic religious beliefs coupled with a theocratic patriarchy.

[Marrah_G]

137. Why aren't the men all wearing them?

They are only worn to separate the women from the world. In countries where they are worn the rules for the women wearing them make them less free then a farm animal.

[Retrograde]

147. Then why don't we see men wearing them? (n/t)

[BlueJazz]

31. This is one of the posts that I don't know what to think. Guess I have to get educated on it.

[riderinthestorm]

36. The garment is cultural, not religious.

Its designed to erase women from society imo.

I'm not a fan

[BlueJazz]

37. I see your point. (didn't know that) "Its designed to erase women from society"

My sig. line once said "The only thing that keeps women from slaughtering all the men is religion"

[snagglepuss]

40. Historically only wealthy women masked their faces as the masses were

deemed unfit to gaze upon them. I think this sense of superiority is what makes them attractive to women who willingly wear them today however I agree that rampant misogyny is also at play.

[kcjohn1]

38. Burqas

Are anti social and should eliminated from all societies. It is mostly modern phenomenon being pushed by extremist wahabi Saudi "friends". Although its small percentages its gaining societies that never had this culture practice (e.g. Africa) due to Saudi funding of mosques.

That said banning this in free society is counter productive and just feeds to right wing bigots. Instead of integrating these communities they just become more isolated. This is the problem of Europe. Their minority communities don't feel they are truly part of community where USA is much better.

Better efforts should be taken to eliminate Saudi funding of terrorists and extremist mosques

[David__77]

41. I feel similarly about this as I do about fundamentalist LDS polygamy.

I'm not at all saying that I think these things are the same - they are not. I am saying that I have a similar feeling when thinking about one as when thinking about the other.

I really like the idea of people having their personal integrity, and choosing how to dress or what relationships to have or not have.

My concern in either case is that someone might face what I consider to be a terrible choice: either take the veil (or the polygamous relationship), or lose all of one's family and community.

[onecent]

42. FUCKING GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oberliner]

58. They should arrest men who force their wives and daughters to wear these

Essentially a form of spousal/child abuse.

The Quran does not mention the burqa or tell women to wear such extremely confining clothes. It just instructs men and women to dress and behave modestly in society.

[CharlotteVale]

69. +1. As long as MEN don't wear the burqa I'm all for banning it.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Headline is false, Switzerland cast no such vote, one canton did. Also the source is a UPIK

supporting tabloid that writes negatively slanted articles about immigrants in general.

[EdwardBernays]

66. The irony

is that many progressives would be ok with following Middle Eastern customs when visiting those countries...

I think it has to be one or the other... either outsiders can ignore local culture or they have to adapt to it.

But you can't force me to follow your traditions in SA, then expect to not follow mine when you visit from SA.

[pampango]

68. Good point. Progressives seem to value respecting the rights of others,

including the rights of conservatives like those from SA. Conservatives seem to demand that their rights (and religion and social conventions) be respected but much less enthusiastic about respecting those of progressives.

There is an inevitable clash when conservatives from one country/culture come in live with conservatives from another country/culture.

The same is not true when progressives from different countries/cultures live together. A respect for multiculturalism is something most progressives have and most conservatives lack.

[onecent]

86. WELL SAID!!!!

[bettyellen]

110. not if their customs are degrading or abusive, nope.

[EdwardBernays]

119. Have you ever travelled to the Middle East?

It's full of tourists from Western countries that allow themselves to be separated by sex in many instances, because women shouldn't be with men...

If you want to visit these places, you'd have to comply or be jailed or thrown out. And it's the same with lots of countries... morality and culture are very different around the world and a lot of things we think are "right" are seen as backwards or immoral all over the place...

In other words, you think forcing women to wear certain clothes is degrading... other people think that Western women's clothes are degrading. If you believe there's a "right" culture, then you'd probably be willing to disallow others from practicing a "wrong" culture... which is what France and Switzerland are doing... in a way...

These issues are extremely complex and most folks like to pretend they are simple as they can easily dismiss them if they "feel" their answers are correct.

[bettyellen]

165. I have chosen not to go places where the inequity is too much, and gone to others

where I thought it was a bit more flexible situation and I could bare it. I have turned down jobs because I knew I would end up in jail if I had to spend that much time there.
I don't give a fuck what other people think of western womens' clothing- I am not participating in their judgment.
FUCK THAT, NO. It's not so complex that judging a person showing their arms or legs is okay. Nope.

[EdwardBernays]

166. It's obviously complex

Because cultural norms are a real thing and those influence how people make moral and ethical decisions.

America is seen as regressive in many ways, by many countries. But if you visit those countries you'd probably find things you don't agree with...things that seem reasonable to everyone around you.

There's right and wrong but there's a LOT more grey than black and white. Using your own morality as the sole basis to judge entire cultures is inherently flawed.

I agree with your morality mostly, but at the same time if you'd grown up in the 1920s or 1890s your attitudes toward race and gender and sexuality WOULD be different.

Many of the most enlightened and progressive people through the years also happened to believe in Eugenics. Others - many others - preached racial segregation. Others believed strongly that America would only succeed as a Christian nation.

My point is that people and cultures and morality is relative and relatively fluid. At least to a large degree. And sure, in 50-100 years we might say that any country that still eats meat, or still uses coal, or still has guns, is a country so morally repugnant we couldn't imagine visiting... you never know.

[bettyellen]

181. I don't believe morality is fluid enough that subjugation is okay.

and I think it's interesting when men make that argument, as they are typically excusing policies that have benefited them above others. To me there's very little gray about how that works. Reproductive choice and education are what it takes to end a society's systemic oppression of women and a huge part of how moral I judge a society to be is based on the availability of those things to all.

[EdwardBernays]

188. But

You realise by your own definition there was literally no such thing as a moral Society as recently as 100 years ago. And some of the morality we all "agree" on in 2015 was literally unthinkable 20 years ago.

So was the whole world just evil in the 1800s?

Add to the that: there's probably things you engage in and believe that I think is immoral.

So are you a bad person then?

What of societies subjugated by a minority that impose immoral beliefs on a public that largely disagrees?

Is that society bad?

There's just so many issues that make this very grey in many circumstances.

I personally agree with you, but that's personal.

Let me put this another way: many people think that America is on balance an extremely immoral country.

They would question how anyone that claims to be moral can fund CIA torture or endless civilian deaths with their taxes.

And find it remarkably ironic that any American would have the nerve to judge anyone much less entire countries.

So. Like I said. It's pretty grey. It can be at least.

[bettyellen]

192. just because I don't expect any society to achieve perfection, does no mean that in anyway, you

cannot judge or fight for better. Not going to accept the subjugation of women for any reason. Historically, segments of society were subjugated because they did not have access to opportunities that others had. Unplanned pregnancy will basically alert the outcome of your entire life, and women were coping with the possibility of that from the moment they become fertile. It was a huge disadvantage in terms of narrowing a person's freedom.
100 years ago, these things were not widely understood. We knew little about how others lived or why, so people did not understand the system to be immoral so well. Impoverished people today face much of the same disadvantages that women have, and I think we have a moral imperative to fix that.
I honestly am not going to follow the derail with getting into the politics of war, because that is quite a bit more grey than oppression and civil rights issues are ever. You really cannot compare the two.

[EdwardBernays]

193. You can of course compare them

If you want to say it's reasonable to judge entire countries based on a handful of policies then all polices have to be on the table. Not just policies you may care about a lot.

Some estimates say that between the 1950s and the 1980s the CIA has been party to 4 million plus deaths. Mostly of civilians. It certainly has installed multiple ruthless dictators that have used things like rape and torture to remain in power.

And you tax dollars paid for that.

If I'm an outsider and I judge YOU or your country based on that what should my judgement be?

The US and it's citizens are in a pretty awkward place when it comes to judging other countries.

[bettyellen]

194. I was specifically discussing social policies that degrade and abuse individual citizens, so nope.

I don't buy the bullshit that you can;t judge because you do something else wrong. It is a derailing technique, not having it.

[EdwardBernays]

197. I'm not saying that

What I'm saying is that you need to judge your own country as meaningfully as you judge others.

If you're not going to examine your own country it seems pretty hypocritical to judge others.

The more reasonable approach might be to say that most countries are not binary: good or bad. Most countries are a mix.

You've chosen to focus on one aspect and ignore all others. That leaves you open to being harshly judged for every mistake your own country makes.

By refusing grey you make America an evil place. Which I'm not sure you want to do as you'd apparently not even choose to visit an evil place - much less live or work there.

[bettyellen]

198. And you are defining the subjugation of women as not "meaningful" enough. I disagree.

And the fact that America has other shitty policies doesn't even come into it. That's just making an excuses for oppressive policies. No nation is perfect, and none would be in a position to judge anything at all if they were to use your standards.
I am not "refusing grey"- I am keeping the discussion on track. Try it sometime.

[EdwardBernays]

201. No

I'm not making excuses for anyone. In fact I'm asking you to not make excuses for America, so you understand just how problematic automatically dismissing entire countries as "bad" because a abhorrent policies can be.

I'd wager that the US has done as much bad - significantly more even - than Saudi Arabia. But because you're an American you won't engage with it

In the same way that the Saudi population chooses to ignore the bad it's government does.

That's what they call irony.

The fact that you just automatically reject any criticism of your country as being irrelevant is kinda hilarious as well. I'd imagine you'd get much the same attitude from many Saudis as well.

[bettyellen]

202. I won't engage in a derail from the topic of oppressive "customs" and feeling forced to tolerate

them- as you claim to feel is only fair. Maybe because you're a man you "won't engage with it"? I don;t feel I have the option to look the other way when women are opressed.

I never ever "rejected any criticism of" the USA, or claimed we are perfect (far from it) but merely pointed you had veered way off topic, and it's a bore. And now you are putting words in my mouth, and shadow boxing- a sure sign of a lazy mind. Not worth any more of my time.

[EdwardBernays]

204. Right

You have repeatedly put words in my mouth and accused me of supporting the subjugation of women.

All the while refusing to engage - except in the most shallow of ways - with the larger point.

Because.

You obviously can't handle grey. And it makes it much easier for you to pretend there's a bunch of good countries and a bunch of bad countries.

Fair enough.

Not accurate or a meaningful way to understand the world or history or cultures or societies. But easy.

Gotcha.

[bettyellen]

205. Never said you support anything- except veering far off topic. Not pretending there are totally good

Last edited Sat Nov 28, 2015, 09:09 PM - Edit history (1)

or totally bad nations, where the fuck did you get all of that from? America is FAR from perfect. Never said otherwise, so chill the fuck out.

That is what I meant by shadow boxing. You are spinning in circles with this attempt to derail.

[EdwardBernays]

207. The fact that you are saying that

Illustrates my point.

[bettyellen]

210. Baloney- you have no point because you were responding to what you expected me to say-

and not responding to what I said at all. Way to go- off the rails.

[Waiting For Everyman]

78. It should be banned for security reasons too.

There could be any number of terrorist weapons under there. And hiding one's identity is very convenient for someone intending to kill others, or commit any sort of crime. I think they should've banned the face veil too. So should the US, btw. From the link...

He added: "Those who want to integrate are welcome irrespective of their religion.

"But those who rebuff our values and aim to build a parallel society based on religious laws, and want to place it over our society, are not welcome."

[Agnosticsherbet]

81. Women are as prone as men to accept the tyranny of faith

And tradition.

You have to teach them from the cradle to be independent.

[Cal Carpenter]

83. This article seems to imply that all 40,000 Muslim women there

wear full burqas, which I find extremely hard to believe.

I live in an area of the US with a very high population of Muslims. I see and talk to dozens of Muslims a day. I see a woman in a full burqa maybe a few times a year. Many Muslim women I know don't even wear a head scarf.

I have to wonder how many of these Muslim women are actually wearing full burqas.

And, as others have pointed out, if those who do wear it are compelled to by their male family members (fathers, husbands, brothers) then how the hell is the state fining the women a logical reaction? On the other hand, if the women are choosing to wear it personally, then why the hell should a government have the right to tell them what (not) to wear?

[Marrah_G]

140. They are rare in the west

Only the most extreme muslim men require the women in their families to wear them.

[leftynyc]

151. The government already does

That. You can't walk into a bank with your face covered. Same with a drivers license picture. I find burqas repulsive...just an attempt to disappear women. This law at its very base it's telling them it's not acceptable. We have to start somewhere.

[WinkyDink]

85. It was one canton. And anyway, leave the Swiss ALOOOOOONE!

[Coventina]

89. Good. The burqa should be banned in all Western countries.

It has no place in the 21st century.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

184. Shame on you. N.T.

[Coventina]

187. Sorry, not feelin' it.

The burqa is nothing but misogyny.

[moondust]

92. There are security concerns.

I don't know how much that accounts for these bans in Switzerland and France. You can hide a lot of explosives under those things. Maybe law enforcement and the general public would rather not have to deal with it.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

108. You can also hide explosives in a backpack or under a coat. Did the Paris attackers wear Burqas?

[moondust]

126. True.

There's also the security issue of being able to hide one's identity from security cameras and the public.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

154. Yes, but that can also be done with a hat, bandana, glasses, scarf, makeup, and other various ways.

When it comes to photo ID and identifying yourself to an authority for a legitimate purpose I completely agree that it should be removed. I don't find it a strong enough argument to deny someone their religious/cultural tradition.

[moondust]

157. A current example

of incidental security camera identification is Mohamed Abrini, 30, "filmed along with Abdeslam at a gas station outside Paris in a Renault Clio." He is now being sought along with Abdeslam in connection with the Paris attacks. If he'd been wearing a burqa there's no telling how long it would take police to identify him; maybe never.

If burqas were to become commonplace they could conceivably be used to hide all sorts of illicit activity including shoplifting, drug mules, weapons and explosives smuggling, suicide bombing, etc.--in broad daylight. Public safety trumps personal religious preferences but, as I said, I don't know how much bearing public safety had on the bans in Switzerland and France.

[Lancero]

93. Reminds me of a newspaper comic I'd seen once...

It's of a muslim woman and a american woman walking by each other - The muslim woman is wearing the traditional burqa and the woman is dressed for a outing on the beach.

American womans thoughts - "Poor woman, being forced to cover herself up"

Muslim woman thoughts? "Poor woman, being forced to walk around naked"

[Quantess]

133. Most of us have seen it, and it is a practically non-sequitor comparison.

First of all, beach wear is suitable for the beach.... DUH!
There are many muslim women who never learned how to swim because of the sexism in their cultures. Women are never taught how to swim, in their horribly sexist cultures.

Secondly. western women are NOT REQUIRED to go go around in skimpy bikinis.

False equivalence, on a massive scale.

[Eleanors38]

183. I would not want this ban in the U.S., and it's probably not good in this canton.

Seems to be legislation springing from more reactionary impulses.

As for the U.S., we have a way of making victims out of folks who are already being victimized.

[Quantess]

189. A full-face covering would be acceptable to you?

Hair covering is no big deal. But you are suggesting that we should accept that people go around with their faces fully covered.
No, I don't think so!

[valerief]

106. The ban can only help women burdened by second-class citizenry. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

116. Support an end to the oppression of women, or support the right of men to force women to wear it.

I don't see how you can do both.

[tblue37]

132. It's tempting to opt for an easy fix like this ban, but it doesn't help. Here is how France's 5-year

Last edited Thu Nov 26, 2015, 11:39 PM - Edit history (1)

ban (+fine) has worked out:
http://www.thelocal.fr/20151012/france-burqa-ban-five-years-on-we-create-a-monster

IOW, it hasn't. It has increased the wearing of burqas, plus it has helped to radicalize young men and women and desecularize them.

[Yorktown]

159. The burqa ban worked rather well in France

Especially when compared to the aggressive display of radical militancy in Britain

[Donald Ian Rankin]

185. In what sense? N.T.

[Yorktown]

186. In the sense it makes the type of intimidationin the UK video impossible

Marches of people dressed in black, nazis or islamists, is nefarious propaganda.

[Quantess]

199. OMG you are so "racist"!!!!!!!

As if muslim were a race? Is a religion = race?

If true, I'm fucked, since I am not religious.

[Recursion]

153. Clearly what Muslim women need is for a *different* group of men

to tell them what they can and can't wear.

[NanceGreggs]

158. I'm not seeing much of a difference ...

... between a woman being told what she must wear and being told what she cannot wear.

Either way, the woman is being told ...

[Quantess]

200. That is an incredibly naive point of view.

[pampango]

169. Would not surprise me if one of our GOP-run states did the same.

Bringing conservative voters together to fear the OTHER is a tried-and-true conservative tactic.

Neither this one Swiss canton nor one of our GOP states would say much about the country as a whole.

[Reter]

172. Is it technically banned in NYC?

Barring Halloween, the City bans masks in public (this was known as the KKK law, so they couldn't hide themselves).

[Squinch]

209. If it is, it is not enforced. There are areas of NYC where they are quite common.

[Arugula Latte]

174. Good decision, Switzerland.

Misogyny and abuse need pushback.

[Iggo]

179. Switzerland? Or Ticino?

[Matrosov]

180. How is it intolerant for Swizerland to defend women?

Replace "Muslim" with "Christian," and ask yourself if people would have the same opinion?

I don't know what's tolerant about any woman having to cover herself, regardless of her religion.

[romanic]

191. I see nothing wrong here.

Women shouldn't be forced to cover their entire bodies because ~religion~ or whatever.

[mwrguy]

206. Islamophobic garbage