Digital camera. For a beginning artist without breaking my budget.

[seabeyond]

Hey people. First, ...

Happy Turkey Day. A cheer to family, uniting in love. This holiday season is a little more real for me, having an ill brother, and knowing how important family is, especially if there is a chance to lose someone we love. So hold all dear this season, close to the heart.

I am looking for a digital camera for my son. For the last handful of years, he has been spending more and more time jumping into the art of photography; he has quite the eye. But, he has only been using his phone camera.

I do not want to spend much. But I want to buy him a good quality camera for him to experiment with and maybe later, pick up pieces that will afford better quality pictures thru lense, scopes, whatever.

I spent my own time in photography decades ago, with the 35 mm camera. I know nothing about today's cameras.

So, any help and the deals the next couple days, I would really appreciate it.

Thank you.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I suggest that you cross-post this in the Photo Group.

They know their stuff!



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1036

[riderinthestorm]

2. I second Peggy's advice

welcome back sea!!!!

[seabeyond]

8. Thank you.

I saw your name when replying to Peggy, so said hi there.

[seabeyond]

4. Thanks Peggy. Hi RiderInTheStorm. Nt.

[w0nderer]

5. in the tone of 'they come in pints' we have a photogroup!?

*Jumps*

[seabeyond]

12. Thanks Peggy, now I have two threads going, lol.

Of wonderful information.

Busy gal.

I tease.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

16. You are always the big tease, my dear sea!

Glad you're back. I wish you and your family a Happy Thanksgiving!

It looks as though you will have plenty of information about cameras for your son.

Have fun with it!

[seabeyond]

17. Happy turkey day to you too.

These threads helped me a lot. Thank you.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

20. I am glad! You're very welcome, my dear sea...n/t

[CentralMass]

3. A link to some camera reviews

http://www.cnet.com/topics/cameras/best-digital-cameras/budget/

[seabeyond]

7. Thanks for the link. It looks like a good one.

I have done some research. I wanted personal experiences though, also. Hearing others experiences makes it a little easier on deciding which one is the best for the money. Especially for a beginner. Things a beginner may not need or use. Or maybe a camera that is particularly good to add on to.

[Crystalite]

6. My two most valued features:

One is simple but if you don't have it you can be very frustrated:
AA battery operated, not a camera brand-specific battery (Canon).
It's nice, if you run out of juice, to be able to pop a couple rechargeable ones in or buy them.
The Canon and other batteries have to be recharged with a special charger, this puts you out of business.

Wireless downloading: Now many even low-priced digitals have the capacity to download without a cable, and some even post to your social media accounts seamlessly.

I've had good luck with low-end Nikons.

Have fun!

[seabeyond]

9. Excellent. Good points. Yes, I have a camera I can put batteries in.

I do like that. Thank you for the tip. I was clueless about wireless too. That is another excellent tip.

Thanks. See, I knew Duers would be so helpful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. We carry extra batteries

that are fully charged. We use the sportmaster brand on the full format. It is as good as the nikon one, on a full charge most photographers should be able to just go all day with two batteries, Lower end cameras, stick to the branded battery since the other brands are lower end quality. We chew though them since we also do video. So our minimum is four batteries per camera. Yes that camera bag is a good 60 pounds heavy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Here

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/dslr-cameras/D5500.html?CID=SEM-Q116-Google-Nikon-_-DSLR-_-Entry-_-D5500

They should have a kit of this with two lenses for sale somewhere at your home town for black Friday

It allows a budding photographer to go from fully manual, to priority to anything in between

If he wants to do some sports, it has a nice fast frames per second in the "sports" mode. It will also accept any of the higher end lenses that Nikon makes, or the budget lenses that are made for Nikon. Oh and the kit lens, too bad my other cameras don't play with it, because it is extremely good in low light.

I just ended burning the sensor or a 5100, four models ago, and 100,000 shots later easy.

If this is too rich still, go for the lower end in the prosumer series. the 3200

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/dslr-cameras/d3200.html

It is the lowest end in the DSLR... and at that point consider spending money on your glass.

You did photography, so you know the rule of thumb about glass mattering more than the camera itself. That has not changed.

Both can do black and white as well as color, and I highly recommend he starts shooting in different light conditions in Black and White and learns how light behaves, you did the exercise, black and white aperture, ISO exercise. If he is serious, and can find a photography course that actually uses black and white, well, actual 35 mm film, jump on it, so he gets all the solid theory that goes with it, not just composition, or gasp... photoshop... what is photoshop?

Regardless, find out who in your town cleans sensors. We do this professionally and we have our sensors cleaned at least once a year. You got no idea how many people decide to throw away a perfectly good camera due to a spot on a photo that never, ever goes away and a sensor cleaning will take care off.

It is black Friday... one of my local stores is literally pulling the rug from even these Nikon prices and they have a kit like this at Cosco at a decent price as well.

(We are in the market for a new full format camera, to go with the other two full formats. we are relegating our dying 5100 to day use, and rain... it is dying, but it still does day ok)

If you prefer Cannon, they also make equivalent cameras in the rebel series for about the same prices, But if he is serious about DLSR... though he might want to consider a mirrorless, They tend to be lighter and a tad less expensive. Me, we do this professionally, so for us it is now full format or bust. (And do not look at the prices for those, just don't... heart attack time)


Realize if he choses one brand changing to another becomes a get the lenses all over again. And of note. if he wants to do portrait... many of the pros in this town are using Sonys now due to the rich color reproduction, so that is one consideration. They tend to need sensor cleanings more often, I've been told, since they are not as well sealed. I don't think your son will take his to a wildfire, so he should be fine. For that matter, raging windstorms, again he should be fine.

Regardless do not leave the store without a sky light filter in place. Those are cheap to replace and will save the lens. Trust us on this. We have replaced a few, but the lenses are still fine. Hell the camera bag has backup filters....Oh and a cleaning cloth.

Oh and megapixels these days is like whatever, the 35 mm equivalent is around 6, these days we could shoot with one shot and get a billboard with one of the cameras we are using. So that is not as important as it used to be. the size of the sensor, on the other hand, is. Your cell has a very tiny sensor... on the other hand the full format we use for work, is a 1:1 ratio. These two have something like a a three quarters to one ratio.

here here is a nice table on how much of the image the sensor sees



What he also needs to look is at the noise level at what Nikon HI settings, which is very high ISO. You never, ever saw 32,000 ISO on film. Think of that as how grainy the picture is, to use the old term.

One critical consideration... make sure the camera fits his hand...no I am not kidding. One of the cameras we have I have to set it BEFORE I get to work. Small hands, I cannot reach some of the controls. So when I have to use that camera, I set the main settings before I leave the house, and do a test shot. Light meters are no longer really needed. Just do a test shot and manually adjust accordingly. Yeah yeah changing light conditions do suck... but we adapt.

Oh and for the record, the image I posted, the 5100 is not a full frame either... but among the prosumer level cameras it is close.

[seabeyond]

13. Lots of information here to study.

But you do have me thinking. I have a couple 35 mm cameras in the back of my closet that may be usable for him to get that whole feel. I am going to spend some time on your post. Thank you. And do some research with the information I am getting, to be ready Black Friday.

thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. The trick will be to find the film

here in San Diego George's Camera carries it. They still have fuji... you should be able to find a photo store where you live that still carries film. The second trick. George's carries the whole chemicals, enlarger, paper... but we also have a junior college that one of our local photogs teaches from.

And good luck...

[Rex]

40. It is a nice sight seeing you and sea posting again.

Seems like old time. Have a great Turkey Day!

[Rstrstx]

39. Do you still have the old lenses that went with the camera?

If so, and they're decent ones, then you may want to look for a mirrorless camera that can take old lenses. Sony's E mount cameras have that large sensor the size of the 5100 together with focus peaking which makes photographing with old lenses relevant again (and lots of fun). If he wants to take a lot of quick shots of moving subject forget it, you'll need a fast SLR from Canon or Nikon. But if he's getting into photography-as-art there's a lot of flexibility that you gain by going mirrorless.

If you had the old Pentax/Takumar screwmount lenses (m42) then you're in luck: he can use either SLRs or mirrorless. But if they're lenses with a shorter flange distance, such as Canon's old FD lenses or any rangefinder, then a mirrorless from Sony or Fuji or Panasonic/Olympus micro 43 or even Canon's quirky M would be worth strong consideration (Nikon's One not so much, their sensor is too small).

As far as film?! Yikes, yes some people are doing it for retro reasons but film gets expensive fast and with digital the screen or viewfinder will let you see the image you're going to get right before you press the shutter. If you don't mind a used body and the budget's an issue you can get a body cheap which leaves more $$ to spend on lenses down the road. Remember the body will either be discarded or relegated as a backup camera after a few years, it's deciding which system you want to get started in. If he really really really wants full frame that's going to be expensive (over $1000) unless you get a 10 year old Canon, and it's hard to recommend a camera that old. If a cropped (but still large) 5100 sensor size is sufficient (and it is for most people) then you can get a used body such as a Canon rebel or Sony NEX starting as low as $100-150 (though it's often worth it to spend a little more if it includes an electronic viewfinder, or in-body stabilization if he does telephoto a lot).

I know there are a lot of bells and whistles on new cameras but most you can live without unless he uses his phone as his only computer. Personally I don't need any of 'em except live view and focus peaking since I use old manual focus lenses. Five years ago that would have been a royal pain but today it's easy and fun, lots of fun in fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Most folks do not use most of the bells and whistles

we shoot full format and manual, ok, priority when I really do not want to think too much about it. It is scary to see some folks with top of the line camera (Nikon D4), that have no clue what they are doing with the camera. But, but if you get a pro, you will get pro results... nope, not quite. You still need to know how to use that camera...

(AP essentially sets the aperture for you)... but we also do not do much more than just cropping. I think I have changed the light on photos 10 times out of hundreds of thousands.

What you said about film is very relevant. Film is expensive. I recommend if people want to learn the theory of light, ISO, exposure and all that, to take a class that goes into all that. Usually those are the classes that actually still use film. They are also becoming hard to find, as the old generation retires and goes away.

I was talking to some folks that are as old fashioned as I am. We are in shock that these days kids are taught none of that, but how to fix photos on photoshop... of course if you are going to do that shoot raw. We simply don't. Take a good image the first time... period. Shooting raw would add a step to the process of getting photos on the website.

Oh and if you shoot often, and like to post to oh facebook. DEGRADE THE DAMN IMAGE... to avoid pilfering fingers. They look ok on the screen, but don't try to enlarge it. I actually had a guy complaint to me since he would not ahem, pilfer the image... he wanted me to give him him the larger file... not in your life bucko... of course if he paid for it... I would have considered it, as in pro rates.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

15. Nikon and Canon both make great entry level cameras. It's the lens that matters more.

I'm assuming that if he wants to get more into photography, he'll want the versatility of a digital SLR replaceable lens camera. There are several DSLR manufacturers, but Nikon and Canon have been at the head of the pack for a long time. Although I haven't checked prices in awhile, I know you can get entry level Canon and Nikon DSLR's for $350-400. Alternately, you could buy last year's model in the used market and save some money. Either way, both Canon and Nikon make really good "low-end" DSLR's, and they're pretty affordable.

What's more important is the quality of the lens. The zoom lens that comes with many DSLR camera body/lens combinations is nice, and can produce some very acceptable pictures. You mentioned that in the future he may pick up different pieces. He'll definitely be interested in getting different lenses, and there are lots of them to choose from, and lots of used lenses available. The lenses will likely last longer than the camera itself, and over time, most people consider lenses the bigger investment. Cameras come and go, but your good lenses stay with you from camera to camera.

Here are some prices for entry level Canon and Nikon camera+zoom lens package deals:

Entry level Canon DSLR with 18-55mm zoom lens: $400
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1030209-REG/canon_9126b003_eos_a_rebel_t5_dslr.html

Entry level Nikon DSLR with 18-55mm zoom lens AND a 55-200mm zoom lens: $397
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Bodies%2fKits_18-55mm+Kits&Ns=p_PRICE_2%7c0&ci=6222&N=4288586280+4291570227+4058298208+4291315846+4058298206

You really couldn't go wrong with either of those. They're both very upgradable, capable cameras.

[seabeyond]

31. Thank you for the info

Pretty pretty cameras. I am gonna hold onto all these names and watch what happens with the prices. These are a little high. Good info.

[Waldorf]

19. When I was getting into the camera hobby I frequented this site for camera information.

http://www.dpreview.com/

Good info from point and shoot to SLR's.

[seabeyond]

33. Thanks

Gonna read it today. Now that I have a better idea about the market, it will make more sense.

[pansypoo53219]

21. my apple love canon. i love getting them off ebay. AND if you can find a good 8mp, they are my

LEAST dropped. great ergonomic. or find a thicker canon. i found an imperfect 10mp that is my ebay camera.

[seabeyond]

34. I will check it out. Thanks. Nt

[Fumesucker]

22. This is about the best bang-for-the-buck you'll get right now

$75 plus shipping.

http://www.adorama.com/US%20%20%20%20748224.html

These are a great little camera with excellent optics that takes amazingly good photos, they were over $500 when new.

Can be used in anything from full automatic to full manual mode (most small cameras don't allow full manual).

The camera market is changing really fast right now, buying an older used model that was near top of the line when new is the way to go since the depreciation on cameras can be fierce.

You'll need an SD memory card or two for it ($10 or so).

Here's a review of the Canon S90.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/s90.htm

[seabeyond]

35. Interesting read, the second link.

It is certainly a step up from his cell phone. lol. My cheaper self is liking this one. lol

[hunter]

46. Plus, you can mess with the software!

Canon Hack Development Kit

http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK

[brer cat]

23. Great to see you back, sea!

My daughter just bought a camera for her budding photographer and it cost a bundle. I was stunned. I hope you can find something more affordable.

[seabeyond]

36. thank you for the welcome back.

And ya. I am so glad I put up the threads and gotten the info I have. It will make the choice a lot easier. More for the buck. My son is just getting a step up from a cell phone, but is also the type of young adult (not a kid anymore) that will sit down and read, study the use of and the camera itself. So I do like the idea of getting him more in a camera. It will fill the little time he has, well.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

24. I have a Canon PowerShot SX400 IS

Best camera I have ever owned. I am not a professional photographer, but I have taken some great pictures with this camera. I can't remember how much I paid for it. About $100 or a little over maybe. The zoom is excellent. 30x optical zoom, 120x digital zoom. Optical zoom looks the best, but using the digital zoom is pretty decent too. I can take pictures of things I can't even see with my eyes without the camera. Great for wildlife pictures or zooming in on your kid in a school play when you are sitting far away. It has anti-shake technology, which I love. The last camera I had I had to be so still to take a picture that didn't look like shit, and even then a lot of them still looked like shit. With this canon, my pictures almost always look great and I don't have to be unnaturally still when I take the pictures. It takes good pictures at night too. I took pictures of the moon during the last lunar eclipse that came out great. It's fun camera to use and very easy to use too. I didn't have to make any adjustments to the settings to get a great picture. There are plenty of settings you can adjust if you are a professional photographer, but I don't ever bother with that.

[seabeyond]

38. Excellent information. Thank you, I appreciate it. Nt.

[mmonk]

25. Useful thread. I'm in the market as well.

[seabeyond]

27. I put another thread in the photograph group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/103648151

[mmonk]

42. Thanks

[fredamae]

26. Great thread-I'm in the market

as well...starting with zero knowledge of terminology and functions.

There are so many choices that when I shop for one...it's overwhelming.

Thanks to all the knowledgeable photographers.
Bookmarked for later.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[seabeyond]

28. I put another thread in the photograph group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/103648151

[fredamae]

29. Thx! :)

I'll bookmark that too.....

[FLPanhandle]

30. May I add one other thing to think about, your computer, monitor and software.

Adobe Photoshop or Photoshop Elements is great for editing (I use the cloud based version).

You also want a high quality monitor to see and edit pictures.

[seabeyond]

32. Excellent point.

I had so much fun with that about a decade ago. Took the time to learn everything. Then somewhere along the way, everything changed and I did not want to relearn. I could now, since I have gotten back into having to use the computer for all kinds of stuff.

I think son is good from that point of view.

Thanks.

[Katashi_itto]

37. I have three canon C-100s I use for commercials and films and a Black Magic

Try Best Buy they sell cusoumer level stuff

The Adobe packages are what I use.

[librechik]

43. Or--buy him a used OM-1 (or the equivalent)

Getting to know the mechanical kind of camera with film in it could be a fascinating and educational experience of Real Photography from the optical basics to the most advanced.

A "Beginner's" professional camera is expensive--you might want to try something less costly for a child.


As an ancient artist I have found that the consumer cameras under 1-200 dollars work fine for me without complications.I have them by the dozens. They will click great pics on auto, especially with a tripod, but be sure to get one with a manual and micro mode (they basically mostly have this) If I need a professional shot of an object, it's all about the staging. An small (3x3) indoor photo stage with two or three point Daylight Spectrum bulbs is all you need to say, sell jewelry on Etsy. But the kids can have fun with the stage, setting up scenarios and dioramas etc. You can make this yourself with some hardboard and dark velvet for the backdrop. Or get fancy and use green chroma colored backdrop for some clean in-camera editing tricks.

merry holiday~

[tabasco]

44. Get a good used/refurbished SLR like a Canon 50D on eBay

or a Nikon of equal quality. Maybe $300 for a nice kit with general purpose lens and bag.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. I have a Fuji XP "tough" camera

It takes great photos and is rugged enough to keep in the truck or out in the shop.