"YOU THERE! Why do you hate Muslims?"
Last edited Fri Dec 4, 2015, 05:53 AM - Edit history (2)
"YOU THERE. Why do you hate Muslims?"
"I don't. I think Islam is a bad idea."
"Look. There are millions and millions of ordinary Muslims all over the world. They are lovely, kind, honest, decent people who hurt no-one. They have children and laugh and cry and dream and want to have an ordinary life like everyone else. Why do you hate them?"
"I don't hate them. I agree that Muslims are very nice people just like everyone else. I think Islam is a bad idea. I don't hate the people who believe in Islam, I think they believe the wrong things. I also think punishing Muslims in general for the actions of the radicalised followers of their religion would be utterly horrible."
"Don't you understand that bigotry is wrong?"
"Yes, I understand that perfectly."
"No, you only THINK that you do."
"No, I know that I do."
"Why do you hate Muslims?"
"I don't. I have gone out of my way to tell you exactly in plain English how I feel about Muslims, and that I am able to distinguish between Muslims and Islam as entities in the Universe and why they should be thought about as separate things. I think the person who is having difficulty separating them is not me, but you."
"I'm not talking about Islam, I'm talking about MUSLIMS? Why do you hate Muslims?"
"I don't hate Muslims. I disagree with Islam. Whenever I say 'Islam', you seem to hear 'Muslims'. The words are different and refer to different things. That, in fact, is the reason we have different words for the two things, to make it a simple matter to distinguish between them. I am quite careful to use the appropriate nouns when I relate my thoughts to people, specifically to avoid the confusion you are accusing me of and make it very clear to them that I already understand the difference between Muslims and Islam."
"Look. Muslims are in danger. People are bigoted against them. You are one of these bigots, you just don't realise it. You are saying you hate Islam but really I think you have to admit it, don't you? This is just racism. You hate Muslims."
"No, I don't hate Muslims. The reason I am able to say this to you in the hope that you will accept what I say in good faith is because I partake of that fundamentally human characteristic that I share with both them and you - a subjective experience of my own cognition. This means that When I Think Things, I am able to report to you directly the results of my thinking. You don't have to work it out, I can actually just tell you. And what I'm telling you is that Muslims and Islam are different things and can be thought about as different things by virtue of the fact that Muslims are living organisms and Islam is a cluster of concepts. Having been alive and capable of interacting with other ordinary human beings all over the planet for some years now, I have arrived at the conclusion that human beings and abstract concepts are separable all by myself and understand that it is in fact possible to make judgements of a belief without supposing that someone holding that belief is in any sense inherently unwholesome or nasty or smelly or bad or ugly or scary or weird or describable with any other adjectives with negative overtones. It was not difficult for me to arrive at this conclusion as I myself have been wrong about some things, as have you, I strongly suspect, and understand that sometimes brains produce junk. It is the junk that I don't like, not the brains, nor the owners of those brains. I do not hate Muslims. In fact, I know many Muslims. I have no doubt that you will dismiss that as another example of the "Some of my best friends are...", argument, which dismissal would be the right thing to do if I was suggesting knowing them qualified me to ignore what they say, which is what the "Some of my best friends are" argument is actually wrong about, but in fact I am saying it to disabuse you of your unfounded assumption about me, to wit, that I hate Muslims."
"You just admitted it! You just said you hate Muslims!"
"Rather a lot was said by me before I arrived at that phrase, and said phrase could only be interpreted as an expression of actual hatred of Muslims by someone who had ignored every one of my preceding points."
"You do hate them. Subconsciously. That's why you said you hate Muslims. Why can't you see it?"
"Because there's nothing there to see. Only somebody who doesn't actually understand what the subconscious is could make your most recent assertion. Speech is a product of the conscious mind, not the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind does not have that power. Nor is it at all meaningful or true to suppose that the subconscious mind has the power to express hidden meanings in the produce of the conscious mind, particularly not if the plain structure of that produce explicitly contradicts that hidden meaning. If I say: "I don't know how anyone could hate gay people," you might suppose that I secretly hated gay people because my utterance contains the phrase 'hate gay people' but that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? What we're seeing here instead is perpetual threat perception with the sensitivity turned all the way up to the max in service of a hero-complex."
"Your words are HARMING MUSLIMS."
"There is no harm coming to Muslims from my dislike of Islam. Harm coming to Muslims requires a generalised disinterest in separating people from their belief structures, which is not what I'm doing, and in cases where some imaginary nasty people listening to what I have said and deciding that it legitimises their own extant hatred of Muslims I am not responsible for the emotional charge around their perceptions of Muslims as their hatred is extant. They would be looking for excuses to hate them anyway just as you are looking for excuses to accuse me of hatred resembling theirs. There is nothing in what I have said that could cause hatred of Muslims, other than in the minds of people who want excuses to hate Muslims, which would not be my fault. Such increased danger is in fact far more likely to come from being freaked out by things getting blown up by Islamic terrorists. People who think symbolically rather than logically do not need my opinions to help them with their hatred. They're actually much more likely to ignore me completely, given that they will be able to tell that I don't hate Muslims through my having said so in ordinary words, thus alienating me from them. So if you think my statements are adding weight to the wrong side of an enormous, imaginary, collective, Human Opinion See-Saw on which one side is 'hate Muslims' and on the other is 'leave Muslims alone' I ask you to consider this idea - that you are thinking metaphorically instead of logically and you should learn to read what is said to you and absorb its meaning in plain English rather than reflexively and petulantly relating it exclusively to structures it reminds you of already within your own mind."
"This is just 'hate the sin, not the sinner' all over again!"
"Your capacity for wilful misunderstanding would win you an Olympic medal. The reason 'hate the sin, not the sinner' is a problem is because that position obscures the idea that the thing under discussion, that being gay people living their lives according to the ordinary processes emergent from their sexual orientation, is a 'sin', which it isn't. The 'argument' places the asserter of sin in a context where they don't actually have to discuss the nature of the 'sin' beacuse they have a special way of thinking about themselves as nice people and so can think what they like because they're nice. They maintain the idea that gay people living their lives according to their hearts and their nature is a 'sin' by putting themselves on a totally bogus 'secretly more tolerant than thou' pedestal which doesn't actually have anything to do with understanding homosexuality. This process has nothing at all to do with the fact that Islam has weird, creepy ideas or that Islam is criticisable without assuming Muslims are evil people. 'Hate the sin not the sinner' places the focus on the interlocutor's relationship with the 'sinner' and actually avoids discussing the 'sin'. 'Criticise Islam, Respect Muslims' places the focus on Islam, not Muslims and so in fact does the exact opposite thing of 'hate the sin, not the sinner'. 'Hate the sin not the sinner'' is senseless because it's ridiculous to suppose homosexuality is a sin. Also, the supposed separation between the 'sin' and the 'sinner' is utterly bogus as legislation is constantly brought into being around homosexuals not homosexual behaviour. 'Criticise Islam, Respect Muslims' treats Islam as a belief structure to be criticised, which is an entirely logical and reasonable thing. Sexual orientation is not a belief structure. There, I have had to go to considerable lengths to unpack that one, I can't wait for the next wildly inappropriate co-option of minority identity political analysis, go for it. Perhaps you might like to consider the possibility that comparing 'hate the sin, not the sinner' to attempts to separate Islam from Muslims is grotesquely offensive to gay people as gay people are regularly slaughtered as a result of Islam, incidentally, not that that seems to make much difference to people like you."
".......God damn you. Why do you hate Muslims?"
"I don't. I think Islam is a bad idea. I have already said this. I used the right nouns and everything. This is really annoying."
"Islam is a religion of peace."
"That is demonstrably false. Waste no more of our time on that idea, please. It is obviously a lie. Islam is no more a religion of peace than Christianity is or Communism or Capitalism are political structures of peace or cucumbers are vegetables of international dialling codes. The Koran in fact has various specifications regarding the appropriate conduct of warfare."
"You said something nasty about the Koran! You hate Muslims."
"No, I don't hate Muslims. I have said this to you repeatedly now. What I actually think is that Islam is a bad idea."
"But your mind is made of cheese and your vicious, sizzling, neurotic, twisted horror of Islam will morph psychologically into a seething hatred of its followers because you are secretly MAD."
"No, that's not really how my mind works. Actually, most people's minds don't work like that. In fact, the vast majority of ordinary human beings don't think like that at all. I think your model for understanding People Who Are Not You might be a bit strange. Perhaps you are using the utterly tiny number of hate crimes against Muslims as evidence of some widespread phenomenon akin to the foul loathing of Jewish people in the mid-20th century that led to their being rounded up and murdered during the Holocaust, which was a highly peculiar thing as no Jewish people had blown anything up or cut off anyone's heads or killed any gay people because of Judaism or decided women were inherently too decorative to be seen or untrustworthy behind the wheel of a motorised vehicle because of the Torah or anything like that. The current situation is dramatically different. There is a great deal of hatred against Muslims, but I do not partake of it, and that hatred is not emergent from a national fever dream but from what a number of Islamic terrorists have actually done. It is very regrettable but not particularly mad, under the circumstances. It is well within the normal range of human reaction."
"Listen to me. You have to understand something. Muslims are kind, decent people. They are friendly. They love their children. They are good. They must not be hurt by your Islamophobia."
"I'm not interested in Islamophobia. I have no interest in hurting or upsetting Muslims and my distrust of Islam is not a phobia. The things that concern me about Islam, which is a different thing from Muslims, are firstly that it features a broad-spectrum cloud, centred on a commonality of religious movements pursued under the banner of 'Islam', of weird, twisted, ugly ideas about women, gay people and people who aren't Muslims, which is antithetical to my own beliefs about women, gay people and people who aren't Muslims, and secondly, that it produces people who want to blow innocent people up with alarming frequency. I disagree with these ideas. I think they are wrong. That is why I have repeatedly attempted to explain to you that I already understand that Muslims and Islam are not the same thing and I am beginning to think you are here entirely to waste my time as you are obviously congenitally incapable of separating Islam from Muslims yourself."
"They're trying to blow us up because we bombed them."
"That doesn't work, does it? The Muslims who are attacking us very often don't even come from the areas we are bombing. It doesn't make any sense. Suppose you are a Christian. Would you place yourself in a suicide bombing vest and bomb innocent people because someone in a totally different country suicide-bombed a church in another totally different country? I would suspect not. There is a belief structure that seems to legitimise this kind of response, and not just in the minds of the people doing the suicide bombing but also in those seeking to protect those who share the suicide bombers religion, that belief structure is Islam. Are atheists Christianophobic? No. That's a very silly idea. Actually, I find the word 'Islamophobia' very strange indeed. If it was 'Muslimophobia' it would make for more sense. Conflating criticism of an idea with meaningless prejudice against its believers is exactly that, a conflation. Islam is a belief structure like any other and open to criticism and analysis like any other."
"Why do you hate Muslims?"
"I don't."
"Why don't you understand that you hate Muslims? You think you disagree with Islam but really you hate Muslims."
"I don't hate Muslims."
"Do you understand that your constant doubling down only re-affirms your deep and abiding hatred of Muslims?"
"I have no deep and abiding hatred of Muslims. I have explained this to you."
"Your hatred of Muslims is so deep, so evil and terrible. Why do you hate them? Don't you see how scary you are?"
"I do not hate Muslims. I think Islam is a bad idea. I am not scary. Belief structures that legitimise hanging gay men and treating women like useless possessions of little more social consequence than a farm-animal are scary. They are a great deal scarier than people who want to point out that they are scary but only mildly scarier than people who want to stifle the opinions of those who think the belief structures themselves are scary by repeatedly asserting that criticism of the belief structure is akin to racism. It's not."
"How deep your Islamophobia runs. You need to see a psychiatrist."
"No, there's nothing wrong with me."
"That's exactly what you would say if there WAS something wrong with you."
"It is also exactly what I would say if there wasn't. I refer you to my earlier observations regarding your easily inferable internal model of People Who Are Not You."
"Why do you hate Muslims?"
"Why do you keep asking me that when I've already told you a ridiculous number of times that I don't?"
"Because you really DO hate Muslims and you just don't realise that you do. Why would you hate Islam so deeply if it wasn't because you hate Muslims? Don't you realise that Muslims and Islam are different things?"
"Yes, I understand that perfectly, which is why I said so as clearly and articulately as possible so as to avoid your supposing that I didn't. What I DON'T do is suppose that Islam and Muslims being different things is the end of the analysis, I also believe different judgements of them are possible through their being different things and I'm beginning to think that you don't. I'm also beginning think that the separation of Islam and Muslims is an idea you would prefer to have wrangled out of your interlocutor despite themselves, if you actually had any interest in separating a religion conceptually from its followers at all. If you had a deep-seated need to feel like you were defending somebody without having to go through any of the messy, complicated, cost-ridden physical, intellectual and emotional efforts of actually defending them from something, pretending that other people's words mean things that they don't and arguing with your imaginary version of their meanings would be an excellent way of doing it, wouldn't it? An Internet message board would be a wonderful way of doing it, too. People contradicted - any number of them. Muslims actually saved - zero."
"You hate Muslims. You hate them so deeply. Your hatred of Muslims is a scary bad thing. Scary Bad."
"You are an imbecile."
"Why do you hate Muslims?"
"Why aren't you on medication?"
"Why do you hate Muslims?"
"Noob. Ignored."
......
(Gr! Fucking bigots. Fucking Islamophobic SHITS. Fuck Fuck Fuck)
Type. Press. Search. Open Tab.... THREAD. THREAD, THREAD, THREAD!
"YOU THERE! Why do you hate Muslims?"
= new reply since forum marked as read
anti-Muslim.
As if opposing a philosophy is the same as hating on a person.
You captured the the idiocy perfectly!
But I will get you pointed in the right direction.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1218
and especially
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1264
You'll need a shower after digging through the first, but a hazmat decon team will be needed after the second.
Enjoy!
all matters pertaining to Israel.
The one about referring to a baby with a gendered pronoun being a hate crime is a new one to me. 
I'll enjoy reading that thread 
Hmmmmm.
Don't make me do another post...
Burqas and niqab wearing has increased in the ME since then, largely through generalised fundamentalisation of the whole region.
No trouble... well the West as infidel and Great Satan is fairly recent. Yeah, I think global politics is a factor.
Other than that...
I don't know what's wrong. Certainly one thing stands out in comparison with previous decades - they are in Europe in far, far greater numbers now. Some towns are majority Muslim towns. Maybe there's a threshhold beyond which people just don't feel the need to be as accommodating.
Nor do I like people pretending I'm saying things that I haven't. It irks me.
I've not seen you post anything you didn't.
Lol, if that makes sense. 
You are a liberal, as I am. Let's hope that tomorrow, peace will somehow become the norm, and do what we can to help make it happen.
On edit, you know, take as an example, New York City. The very name, New York City, seriously engendered fear in people who were sentient in the 70's and 80's. Not as any literal evil incantation, but rather, the idea of a place where violence and mugging and abuse of all kinds were becoming normative. Now, it's the safest city in the US, maybe even one of the top ten safest in the Western hemisphere. I mean, transformations and change do happen.
Thank you.
New York is a good example!
One day I must come to look...
Maybe more. Blood feuds, religious wars, regular wars, sheer madness and often all of these, simultaneously, have been the order of the millinnium save for the Ottoman Peace. All the western powers, especially His Chimperial Fraudulency, did was give a hornet's nest another periodic poke.
When your worldview is based solely on placating an eternally pissed-off and psychotic godhead and physically annihilating the wrong-believing scum on the other side you do not deserve to claim the term "civilized." It's barbarism, plain and simple, and I can and will call it nothing else. It deserves nothing but the scorn and contempt of civilized cultures wherever else they may be in the world. It's the modern-day version of the Huns, Visigoths or Vandals.
And thanks for the compliment.
