I’m confused. “Happy Holidays” is good, but the ”National Holiday Tree” isn’t?

[fwiff]

Yes, I do find “Merry Christmas” and a National “Christmas” Tree a bit offensive.

I’ve been on DU for 10+ years, and I’m trying to get my mind around this recently discussed dichotomy that embraces the notion of “Happy Holidays” but disses that of “Holiday” tree.


Like the 2/3rd majority of the world, I’m not Christian. Wishing me a “Merry Christmas” rolls right over who I am- it’s exclusionary, and basically it tells the rest of us, “I only care about what I celebrate, if you don’t like it, too bad.”

It’s the same as being on the receiving end of any traditionally dominant social practice; e.g., sexism, racism, etc.

Most of us here get that. We’ve been leading the war on Christmas, after all.

The word “Christmas” is NAMED AFTER CHRIST for chrissakes. The word may not seem like much to you, but to many of us, it’s that same ‘too bad’ vibe.

So, yes, when the White House has a national “Christmas” tree, it’s the same bloody thing. It’s a governmental practice, and it should either be secularized into ‘holiday’ or abandoned.

Simply replacing the religious word qualifier “Christmas” with the word qualifier “holiday” is inclusive and implies that all are welcome.

IMO, I don’t think any symbols exclusively attributed to a particular religion should be on any government property. And the concept of ‘equal time’ doesn’t exist because, for many people, their celebrations don’t have easily recognized symbols or the holiday is quite different.

Just because something is a tradition doesn’t mean that it’s right or has to stay that way. Christmas trees are of pagan origin and adopted by Christianity (As were the winter festivals). Gift giving was associated with St Nicolas, (Santa predates Christmas) but after the reformation became associated with Jesus and, voila, Christmas!

Traditions change. We democrats often push to change them.

So, yeah, I wouldn’t resign a council position over it, but public displays should be inclusive and not associated with any particular religion(s).

And Happy Holidays to all.

[randys1]

1. Instead of a national tree, how about a karaoke night where we can all sing whatever we

want.

They do trivia contests in bars in UK, right?

Why dont we have a...

wait.

Tree, karaoke, I guess I am off topic.

But then so is the idea that an invisible man, white nonetheless, in the sky, watches everything we do.

Growing up I loved the smell of the tree when we would buy it and bring it home.

[Buzz Clik]

31. Interesting idea. We can call that night...

... every night following every day.

Don't like Christmas? Don't celebrate it. It's that easy.

[jberryhill]

2. "Christmas" is a US national holiday, and is not a religious holiday

"Wednesday" is named after the Norse God Woden, and I don't think anyone is getting upset over that one either.

There is absolutely nothing "religious" about a Christmas tree. Yes, we have bundled a lot of secular traditions into the general public holiday which is indeed called "Christmas", but decorating and lighting an evergreen tree has utterly nothing to do with any religious observance whatsoever. It is a solstice tradition of pagan origin.

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Yep!

Monday - "Moon Day" (lunae dies in Latin)
Tuesday - "Tyr's Day" (Norse god of war), dies Martis in Latin (Mars' Day)
Thursday - "Thor's Day", Iovis dies (Jupiter's Day)
Friday - "Frīġedæġ" (Frigge's Day), dies Veneris in Latis (Day of Venus)
Saturday - "Sāturni diēs" (Latin for Saturn's Day)
Sunday - "Sun's Day", from dies solis in Latin

I am an atheist and don't believe in any religion. Should I be offended when people mention days of the week?

[fwiff]

9. This is actually the most relevant reply to my question.

My objection/ point is that the word , "Christmas" though common vernacular to many, as to most as have responded here, really isn't.

It is the name of the Christian god.

It reinforces Christian- ness.

[Kelvin Mace]

11. And in a 1000 years or so when Christianity has gone the way of Odin

It will be a quaint etymological notation in a dictionary.

Again, I look at the intent of the person bestowing upon me some greeting/blessing. If I were to get offended at the various religions enjoined upon me every day, my circle of friends, relations, and spouses would be quite circumscribed.

I find all religion irrational and offensive. I take the practitioners on a case-by-case basis.

[FrodosPet]

35. Yes, you absolutely should be offended!

Whoever is most offended most often wins.

Not sure what the prize is, but I bet it is pretty offensive.

[Kelvin Mace]

3. It comes under "intent"

as far as I see it.

Did the person mean to insult me, or wish me well?

Christmas, is a traditional holiday in this country. When I have been in other countries where they have different traditions and holidays different from mine, I don't take offense at being wished "Happy X-Day".

I don't get offended is someone says "Happy Holidays!" or "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Kwanza!"

Heck, I am a Trekkie and nobody EVER wishes me a "Happy Trek Day" (Sept 8th), but I also don't get upset when a Star Wars fan says "May the Fourth be with you!" on May 4th.

[LuvNewcastle]

17. Yes, intent matters.

I'm not a fan of Islam, but I wouldn't be offended if a Muslim wished me a happy Ramadan, or whatever. A Jew can wish me a happy Hanukkah, and I'll say the same for them. If Hindus or Buddhists or any variety of Pagans wish me happiness in the name of their religion, it's not going to offend me in the slightest. All of this offense people take at holiday wishes and merriment seems Puritanical to me.

[Kelvin Mace]

19. Yeah, that puzzles me

We have people in this country who would shoot me dead for my political/social/ethical views. I am not goin to sweat "Merry Christmas".

[leftynyc]

4. I'm not Christian either

and couldn't possibly care less if someone wishes me a Merry Christmas. They're not looking to insult me and the VAST majority of Americans are Christian so they're just playing the odds. Big fucking deal. Find something relevant and important to get outraged about - this ain't it.

[fwiff]

8. It's not outrage, simply a diffrent POV

n/t

[leftynyc]

23. Disagree

The PC nonsense has gotten so bad here I got tagged (nothing hidden, just complained about) when I called the woman who had just shot up those innocent victims in California a skank. As if THAT was an appropriate thing to complain about. As if she deserved any respect whatsoever.

[lunamagica]

5. Happy Holidays ecompasses Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, Kwanzaa

The Christmas tree doesn't

I don't see what's the big deal. I celebrate Christmas. I don't celebrate Hanukkah, but I love to see the huge Menorah displays with all the lights. It's festive, and just because *I* don't participate, I won't try to put a damper on those who do, and won't start whining that it should be called a "Holiday Candelabra". That would be mean and absurd.

There's so much pain and suffering in this world, why don't we let some people have some joy for a few weeks? It's pretty, it's festive, it's harmless...why try to spoil it.

I know this won't be a popular wiew here, but I love to see the Christmas and Hanukkah displays! The more, the merrier.

Happy Holidays to you, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, happy Kwanzaa to all who celebrate

[el_bryanto]

7. I think it depends on the context

Certainly there are those Christians in the United States that have made Merry Christmas some sort of bullshit statement of exclusionary defiance. As a Christian myself, it drives me nuts. In my opinion part of being a Christian should be being hospitable, welcoming and good neighbor (those are my beliefs, I don't want to imply that my beliefs are indicative of all Christians, nor do I want to insinuate that non-Christians can't share those traits as well). Someone saying Merry Christmas in that sense is looking to exclude others, to remind them they don't really belong here.

I'm a bit upset about this today because someone (a cousin) posted a message on Facebook which said among that people who complain about Christmas should go back to where they come from, and then had a line of "If you have the courage to post this . . ."

That said I think most people who say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays aren't doing so out of malice.

Bryant

[Glassunion]

10. This is all part of our "War on Christmas™", it helps confuse and disorient the enemy.

Am I the only one who read the Art of War?

Make a sound in the east, then strike in the west. Mask your real goals, by using the ruse of a fake goal, until the real goal is achieved. When he is exhausted and confused, you attack with energy and purpose.

[WillowTree]

12. And you think making the mere mention of the name of the holiday a big offense........

.......isn't exclusionary toward the majority of Americans who do celebrate Christmas, either as a religious or secular holiday? That isn't saying to us “I only care about what I do and do not celebrate, and if you don't like the fact that I don't even want you to mention your celebration, too bad.”?

"Simply replacing the religious word qualifier 'Christmas' with the word qualifier 'holiday'" is not inclusive. It excludes Christians (and non-Christians who celebrate Christmas secularly); tells us that holiday is "offensive".

And by the way, if someone told you that you have some sort of "right" to never to have to encounter anything that will offend you, they were lying. Just sayin'. And if having someone tell you that they wish for you to be merry on a day when they celebrate something that you do not is sufficiently offensive to cause a disturbance in your day, honestly, that's your problem.

"Inclusiveness" mean everyone. Including the majority. It's a Christmas tree. It always has been a Christmas tree. It's not a religious symbol. See if you can find something that actually matters to get your undies in a bunch about.

[fwiff]

13. Again, I'm not objecting to anyone celebrating Christmas.

I'm objecting to our government reinforcing the name of the Christian god.

It should be secular, or not at all.

And no, it hasn't always been a "Christmas" tree. It was named that in the 1800's.

Maybe it's time for traditions to change. It's not even a particularly upsetting topic- I'm just pointing out what I look at as a double standard.

[WillowTree]

14. And the tree.......

.......is a secular symbol of the holiday. And I don't think there was ever a decorated "holiday" tree at the White House up until the 1800s. It's a Christmas tree. Get over it.

[cleanhippie]

39. "Get over it" ? Seriously, THAT'S your response?

'For those used to their privilege, equality seems like oppression'


People are becoming more and more secular with each passing day. The Christian-centric nature of this country is becoming more and more diverse, and only those that feel their privilege slipping away say things like "Get over it."

Maybe you should accept these changes for what they are, and get over it.

[WillowTree]

41. Yes.

I'm tired of how it's so terrible if some segment feels excluded, but not others. I can wrap my head around why some people object to Nativity scenes, though why plastic depictions of the birth of Christ is so detrimental to society escapes me, but I'm sick to death of being told that calling a Christmas tree by it's right name is so offensive to some people. To me, being inclusive is about embracing what's good about different cultures and religions etc, not telling people to keep their beliefs and traditions to themselves to accommodate some trumped-up offense of the thin-skinned.

[cleanhippie]

42. It seems obvious you are unable to see this issue from outside your own worldview.

I conclude that further discussion with you would be pointless.

[WillowTree]

43. Ditto. To both statements.

[cleanhippie]

44. Ahh, the old "I know you are, but what am I?" retort

I surrender. There's no way to compete with such an intellectually powerful argument.

[WillowTree]

16. Look.....part of inclusiveness is learning to enjoy the cultures of others.

I participate in Passover and Hanukkah celebrations with my Jewish friends and have celebrated Diwali with my friends from India. And I've been known to have barrels of fun at secular Christmas parties. I wouldn't dream of ever suggesting that they should only refer to the symbols of those celebrations as some generic "holiday" item and it doesn't mean that I'm in agreement with all Jewish or Hindu beliefs and I'm sure not planning to become a pagan.

Why not find the positives about the twinkling lights and pretty music and, yes, all of the different, lovely Christmas trees? We're happy to share with you.......to include you in.......any of the enjoyable parts of the Christmas that you can find. Try to focus on the positive and stop excluding others by your negativity toward something that, really, doesn't do anyone any harm. And no, the fact that you choose to wallow in offense at someone else's celebration doesn't qualify IMO in doing you harm. That's something you do to yourself.

[WillowTree]

33. And before the 1800s.......

.......was there a lit and/or decorated tree at the White House or Capitol Building that was called something else?

Also, which of the non-Christian winter solstice holidays have a lit, decorated tree as one of its long-standing, traditions?

[whatthehey]

29. You might want to contemplate what "inclusive" means

A holiday does include Christmas. Christmas is a holiday.

But holiday also includes non-Christian celebrations also, not coincidentally, established around the Winter solstice, which other citizens of this nation prefer to celebrate.

Calling it a holiday tree officially does not stop YOU calling it a Christmas tree. It only stops the official imprimatur of the nation being used to exclude everyone else who celebrates other holidays.

[Nye Bevan]

15. If it is relevant to your argument that 2/3 of the world's population is not Christian,

is it also relevant that 70% of the United States population does identify as Christian?

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/?utm_expid=53098246-2.Lly4CFSVQG2lphsg-KopIg.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

[cleanhippie]

40. Perhaps, but it would be more relevant to show that the "nones" are growing exponentially

And that the religious landscape of this country is rapidly changing from a christian-centric one to a diverse, secular one.

[Snobblevitch]

18. There is no such thing as a holiday tree in the U.S. in December.

Shit, last July 3rd I saw a grease board at a grocery store listing specials and at the bottom was written 'Happy Holiday'.

[LuvNewcastle]

20. I think it means something different if

there is an (s) on "holidays." I know it seems trivial, but Happy Holidays used to mean that people were including New Year's along with Christmas, since it all takes place together. People didn't seem to mind Happy Holidays when I was growing up.

But Happy Holidays came to mean something different, and that's when a lot of Americans started caring. Many people started to think that Happy Holidays included Hanukkah and then Kwanzaa, which to them was just going too far. I don't mind people saying Merry Christmas or Merry Whatever to me, but I think that a lot of the people who insist on Merry Christmas and get offended by Happy Holidays are being xenophobic, antisemitic, racist, or all three.

I think this should be a problem for fundy Christians to nurse, not the rest of us who try to be inclusive and not take offense at every turn.

[Snobblevitch]

21. It doesn't bother me a bit if people wish each other

Happy Holidays Thanksgiving through New Year. It does not make sense to say Holiday Tree instead of Christmas Tree. It is ridiculous to say Happy Holiday when referencing Independence Day.

[LuvNewcastle]

22. I agree about "Holiday Tree."

Never heard of that before, although I leave mine up through Mardi Gras, with some minor changes. I guess you could say Happy Holiday on July 4th, but it does sound funny.

[CBGLuthier]

24. Frankly I think we should just strike fucking December from the calendar.

Bah Humbug.

Yeah it may be wrong but really anyone who finds it offensive is going out of their way to be offended. I don't celebrate any holiday myself, follow any gods, or observe any traditions but who really gives a shit.

I am really getting sick of having to hear the same damned lectures from everyone about the truth about this or the tradition of that. DO some of you think that we are all too ignorant to know the real history of that holiday? Do you have to bring it up every damned year for the rest of our lives? Yeah fuckit I am offended by all the people who are offended.

Happy holidays everyone.

[onenote]

25. I'll remind you this spring when it's Passover so you can go picket the WH

when they host their annual Seder.

By the way, I hope the responses to your thread have left you less "confused."

[Kalidurga]

26. I would rather save my energy for other issues...

Like income inequality. I would rather fight so that people can afford to put up whatever kind of tree they want. Or whatever kind of festivus pole they want or a barber pole if that is what floats their boat. Or nothing at all. We can't pretend that most the people we pass on the street don't believe in a sky daddy and that they stole the pagan holy day. I have no problem with that the traditions live on by another name, it's not a problem and hasn't been for a couple hundred years now. Perhaps in the future they will rename the holiday national conspicuous consumption day. And in January we will have a national crying day for people opening their credit card bill.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

27. You know, Tommy Lee Jones was asked about this very topic.

His response:

Stupidest non-controversy ever.

[Cosmocat]

28. No, Happy Holidays is not acceptable

to the right wing PC police.

As someone else noted, a I LONG ago started saying happy holidays just to avoid having to say Merry Christmans, have a good new years, happy hanaku etc ...

wasn't a real issue until the last 10 years, and I have been admonished since a number of times.

Our elementary school does a chrismas show every year. The musical director, every year has the last song with all the students end with a verse about happy holidays, then merry christmas just to screw with them ...

Some years, with newer parents, you can hear gasps on the first verse of happy holidays, like they were singing kill puppies ...

[Buzz Clik]

30. It's all bullshit. If you like Christmas, celebrate it. Period.

It's a guaranteed right in this country.

The rest is just noise.

[Nonhlanhla]

32. The distinction is a simple one

"Happy Holidays" is a way of wishing everyone a happy time celebrating whatever they're celebrating: Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanzaa, Solstice, New Years, whatever. A Christmas tree, although originally pagan, is a Christian symbol. (It is not a particularly religious Christian symbol, more of a cultural one). It is not a Hanukkah symbol, a Kwanzaa symbol, a New Years symbol, or a Solstice symbol. I'm not going to insist that a large menorah placed in a public place be called "A Celebration Candle Holder" in the name of political correctness: it is a Jewish symbol and should be respected as such. Same with a Christmas tree. Instead I will wish everyone a Happy Holiday, and enjoy the various symbols of the various holidays, whether it be a National Christmas tree, or anything else that people want to put up.

[CTyankee]

34. some nice people are hearing it differently than we here at DU...they are told that it is

some kind of zero sum game. If they're own religion is not stressed --i.e. happy holidays instead of merry christmas -- then christianity is being attacked. They don't get it that it is simply a right wing ruse to get them to believe that their religion is under attack from leftists. I try to reassure one of my friends who believes this (because her family and members of her community believe it) but the peer pressure on her is intense. So we are not friends any more. I just decided to let her go and not try to accommodate her any longer.

[ileus]

36. National Holiday tree sounds dumb.

Happy Holidays is awesome. But a national holiday tree is just beyond dumb...

[LanternWaste]

37. Consistent application of your conclusion suggests changing the name of the holiday

"public displays should be inclusive and not associated with any particular religion(s). "

Consistent application of your conclusion suggests changing the name of the holiday itself to something inclusive if referenced by a local, state or federal employee, organization or entity, as well. If I read that incorrectly, what then is the precise and relevant difference?

Regardless, here's hoping you have a wonderful Milad un Nabi this year.

[Major Nikon]

38. Here's what's going on with this issue that some don't seem to get

You have a concerted effort going on right now to make the holiday less inclusive rather than more inclusive.

People want to pretend this is just an issue with people getting bent out of shape over a decorated tree being called a "Christmas" tree. The actual problem is Christian bigots who are taking issue with people who want to be more inclusive. I have no issue with anyone who wants to say, "Merry Christmas". However, if I choose to say "Happy Holidays" and someone wants to call me out for it, here's what I have to say to them...