Child brides pose new challenge in ongoing refugee crisis

[ErikJ]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2015/12/04/child-brides-pose-new-challenge-in-ongoing-refugee-crisis/
12/4/2015

The case of a pregnant 14-year-old refugee girl from Syria, who also already had an 18-month-old child when she arrived in Norway with her husband this autumn, has posed a major dilemma for Norwegian authorities. Police have now decided to investigate, and may file charges against the 23-year-old father.
Under Norwegian law, the girl is a victim of sexual abuse and alleged forced marriage, and her husband may be guilty of having sex with a child. The offenses clearly occurred, however, outside Norway, which initially prompted Norwegian police to refrain from filing any charges when the young family first crossed the border from Russia in Northern Norway.
Public outcry when the case of the child bride became known, along with clear signals from government officials and many top politicians, prompted police to reconsider. “We will follow this up as a criminal case,” prosecutor Jens Herstad of the Øst-Finnmark Police District told state broadcaster NRK. Herstad said other state agencies will also be mobilized to assist the 14-year-old, who is now staying at an asylum center in southern Norway along with her child and husband.
While the police were roundly criticized for not acting immediately, Norwegian social anthropologist Unni Wikan warned that more such cases are likely to arise and present more dilemmas over how to handle asylum seekers who are child brides.
“Norway may have to accept that underage refugees are married and have children,” Wikan told NRK. Wikan doesn’t defend how young girls can be married off to older men, but expressed concern that the girls may suffer even more if authorities file charges and annul the marriages. Countries all over Europe may face similar problems.

[alphafemale]

1. So he started raping her when she was 12 or 11. Maybe younger even.

Yeah. But there is no easy answer in this,

[akbacchus_BC]

2. I cannot speak for young girls in Syria but I know that Australia, Canada and the UK

are funding my company, based in Canada, to stop child and enforced marriages in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. Our first year of addressing the issue. It is in keeping with the UN Values of ensuring that girls are not forced into early marriages.

[enough]

18. How does your company go about doing this? (nt)

[ErikJ]

74. That's a great cause. Should be a priority for all.

Women's empowerment should be a leading cause on the planet. Delayed marriage, secular education, business micro-funding, family planning, birth control contraception etc. It has been shown to be the number one way to reduce family size and over- population of the 3rd world which is a huge problem and the best way to reduce abject poverty. Huge family size is probably the root cause of the Syrian crisis. Keep up the good work.

[Democat]

3. More fodder for the far right

Europe may have to accept child rape from certain groups but not others?

[Quantess]

5. RW nationalists are gaining popularity all over Europe, and have been, for a few years now.

Cultural situations like these are what push voters to the nationalist parties.

[patsimp]

51. its disgusting. to me it is child rape - pure and simple - am i supposed to be opened minded

about a child under 13 being used for some man's sexual perversions?

[get the red out]

13. Obviously that makes rape acceptable

child rape is ok if the right is against it? If that's the liberal view, I question our decency as much as those on the right. A stopped clock is correct twice a day.

[Democat]

33. A lot of people on DU will react against anything Republicans support

It's a long time problem around here.

[smirkymonkey]

56. I know and it's disgusting. They are children for god's sake.

I know I would have been horrified at that age, so nobody can tell me that it is right for any culture. It's sickening how some people defend this perverted custom.

[merrily]

4. These are sex slaves, not "child brides." That "cute" name is repugnant.

[FrodosPet]

6. Someone else, a VERY popular charismatic figure, had a child bride a few hundred years ago

Complaining about child brides is Islamophobic. We need to shut up about this and accept different cultures have different traditions and standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Marriage_to_Muhammad

~ snip ~

According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad and nine when the marriage was consummated.

~ snip ~

[d_r]

7. Or not

When does a sense of morality trump culture? If we can accept that laws exist to protect hu.an rights, and that human rights transcend law, isn't there a point when we can accept that human rights transcend cultural beliefs?

[FrodosPet]

8. The Ben Affleck Rule

Any criticism of Islam is automatically a bigoted attack on ALL Muslims.

[Dr. Strange]

22. That's gross! That's racist!

[get the red out]

15. With Christians

We can do that with Christians or any other culture or religion, just not one in particular.

[leftynyc]

62. So glad I'm seeing others speak out

about the abject hypocrisy of so many on DU in name of political correctness and cultural relativism. I've been doing it for years and been called a hater, and Islamophobe, a bigot, gotten numerous hidden comments. Frankly, anyone defending this sick practice should be ashamed of themselves.

[hifiguy]

65. 100% agreed.

[Travis_0004]

9. I disagree

Slavery was also practiced before, do we accept that too?

I have no problem with a country enforcing their laws. Dont like it, dont go there.

If a bride was married at 14, and she is now 30, let the bride in, she can get a divorce if she wants.

If she is still 14 let the bride in and not the husband. She can seek refuge status, or if she wants to stay married she can go somewhere else.

[pnwmom]

10. Complaining about 9 year old brides is NOT Islamaphobic. Nothing in Islam

requires this and this is why many Islamic countries ban the practice of child brides.

And if they come to live in another culture, they must abide by our laws.

However in these particular refugee cases, my feeling is that each one should be addressed individually. If the girl wants her freedom, then she should be supported in getting it, along with her children.

[oberliner]

11. What does Islam say about marriage?

Are there any specifics laid out?

[pnwmom]

12. I don't know. But I do know there are Islamic countries that have banned it

for girls under 18.

[FrodosPet]

24. But it is acceptable under Islamic Law

Child marriage in Islam is subject to the condition that it serve a clear and real interest

https://islamqa.info/en/178318

Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:

It is permissible for a man to arrange a marriage for his young son even if he has not reached puberty; it is alsonto account and that a clear and real interest is served by this marriage.

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

The schola permissible for him to arrange a marriage for his young daughter even if she had not reached the age of puberty. It was narrated that there was consensus on this point, but that is provided that compatibility is taken irs are unanimously agreed that the father may arrange a marriage for his young daughter without consulting her. The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah when she was six years old.

~ snip ~

[pnwmom]

26. So? It is not REQUIRED. Thus, banning it in Norway is NOT Islamaphobic.

OTOH, even if it were required it still wouldn't be Islamaphobic. If Islam required slavery, for example, being opposed to slavery wouldn't make a country Islamaphobic. It would just make it opposed to slavery.

And child marriage is a form of slavery.

[smirkymonkey]

87. Thank you! Acceptable does not mean required, therefore outlawing it is perfectly fine and not the

least bit Islamaphobic. Some of these people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

[leftynyc]

66. Those "laws" are ignored every single

day:

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2011/10/02/sharia-law-has-led-to-the-legislation-of-child-marriage-in-6-countries.html


People can say it's not part of the culture until they're blue in the face. Let them call RAWA a right wing mouthpiece. I dare them.

[pnwmom]

78. It still isn't Islamaphobic. n/t

[leftynyc]

80. Of course it isn't

but that wont stop some here from howling that it is and call those who decry this haters. Their heads need to be examined and frankly, I'm wondering if some are right wingers using DU to make liberals look bad. Defending this perversion makes me want to vomit.

[FrodosPet]

16. Why Yemen Won't Ban Child Marriage and Rape

[pnwmom]

17. My sounds doesn't work. But it doesn't matter. Child marriage is not required by Islam

and Islamic countries can (and some do) ban child marriage.

It is an evil practice.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/12/dead-yemeni-child-bride-w_n_533959.html

SHUEBA, Yemen — A 13-year-old Yemeni child bride who bled to death shortly after marriage was tied down and forced to have sex by her husband, according to interviews with the child's mother, police and medical reports.

The girl's mother, Nijma Ahmed, 50, told the Associated Press that before her daughter lost consciousness, she said that her husband had tied her up and forced himself on her. "She looked like she was butchered," she said about her daughter's injuries.

Elham Assi, 13, bled to death hours after she spoke to her mother and just days after she was married to a 23-year-old man. She died on April 2 in the deeply poor Yemeni village of Shueba, some 200 kilometers northwest of the capital. Her husband, Abed al-Hikmi, is in police custody.


The practice of marrying young girls is widespread in Yemen where a quarter of all females marry before the age of 15, according to a 2009 report by the country's Ministry of Social Affairs. Traditional families prefer young brides because they are seen as more obedient and are expected to have more children.

Legislation to ban child brides has been stalled by opposition from religious leaders. There has been no government comment over the case.

The girl – one of eight siblings – was pushed into marriage after an agreement between her brother and her future-husband to marry each other's sisters to avoid having to pay expensive bride-prices – a common arrangement in Yemen, the poorest country in the Middle East.

SNIP

[leftynyc]

21. The mother

obviously gave her permission for the marriage and now she's complaining? WTF kind of woman does that to her daughter? Arrest her ass also.

[pnwmom]

27. What do you mean she obviously gave her permission? How do you know all the

arrangements weren't made by the men in the family, as it usually is in fundamentalist Islamic cultures? Do you know how little power these women have?

[leftynyc]

28. Gave permission, stood by

and let her husband make the arrangement - no fucking difference in my mind. Women didn't get the right to vote and all the other rights we enjoy by asking nicely for them. If she didn't scratch and claw or leave her husband for allowing this marriage, she's simply part of the problem. Tired of making excuses for these backwards practices that leave children bleeding and dead.

Do you remember the Joel STeinberg story? If not, look it up and tell me his wife didn't deserve to be in prison also for standing by and letting her child be abused. Same situation here.

[pnwmom]

31. In the US, women have many more options and much more power than they do in Yemen. The situations

aren't at all comparable.

[leftynyc]

35. Was it always that way?

No - it wasn't. We had to fight, scratch and claw our way - these women will have to do the same. Until they do, they're part of the problem.

[Matariki]

37. Whoa there Keyboard Warrior

So easy to criticize from your comfortable American home. As pointed out, she probably had very little say in the matter. And 'little' surely means 'none'.

[leftynyc]

41. And so do women who

stand by and let their husbands/boyfriends beat the crap out of their kids. Either you stand up and fight or you're part of the problem. I think we all learned that lesson from that terrorist piece of shit who just shot up those innocent folks in California. For all you know, she was very much part of that deal and loves the money or prestige that marriage may have bought her family. I would KILL my husband before I'd let him marry off my daughter at 12 years old.

[Matariki]

46. You are projecting your own circumstances onto women in dire conditions.

And you are being extremely smug about it. Women living in extreme poverty don't have the same choices you do. Women living in cultures where marrying off daughters young as a way for them to survive don't have the same choices you do.

It's not good, or fair, or right - but the answer isn't simply expecting those women to 'rise up'. It's much more complicated than that. Ending poverty and education for girls would be a start.

[leftynyc]

59. And YOU are assuming the mother

had nothing to do with it. And sorry, pleading poverty just doesn't cut it. There is plenty of poverty in the west and people aren't selling their daughters to rapists without getting punished for it when its found out. It's part of a perverted culture and I wont stand for excusing it by pleading poverty or gender inequality.

[Matariki]

64. You should do some reading about what life is like for women in Yemen

I don't have anything more to say to you about this. I hate tossing the word 'privilege' about, but in this case it fits.

[leftynyc]

69. Well, good luck thinking

anything will be accomplished by ignoring it or, even worse, excusing it. Hasn't worked so far but maybe in a few fucking decades these children will have those who will speak out for them.

[smirkymonkey]

88. God, how depressing! That poor child! She was 10 years old!

Every adult complicit in this crime should be shot. They are revolting human beings.

[Oneironaut]

70. They're taught to not "want" anything.

Their piece of shit pedophile husbands own them. It doesn't matter if they want to be free or not - this is rape and it's repugnant. These girls all need to be free.

[get the red out]

14. Are you FUCKING SERIOUS

I sure hope you just forgot to use the scarcasm emoticon.

I guess I am evil for giving one fucking damn about human rights.

[FrodosPet]

19. Ben Affleck said not to criticize Islam

If it were any other religion or culture, we would be free to criticize. But we are supposed to always look for ways to ignore or minimize things about Islam we may disagree with. And if something is so egregious that it cannot be ignored, then say it is un-Islamic.

(BTW: No, you absolutely are NOT evil for caring about others, particularly the frail and innocent)

[get the red out]

36. Ben Afflect

Can go fuck himself with a 2 x 4.

[smirkymonkey]

89. Ben Affleck is an effing moron.

I'm so sick of his self-righteous crap.

[Oneironaut]

73. Pretty sure he's making fun of the gutless PCers that

run in circles trying to defend Islam.

[leftynyc]

20. Hoping you're just making a point

or just forget the sarcasm thingy. If people want to emigrate to the west, they must follow the laws. Arrest this 23 year old child rapist and make an example out of him.

[FrodosPet]

23. I'm tired of using the sarcasm thingie

I'm hoping people can figure it out, but I see it is proving to be a problem.

Henceforth, I will use the sarcasm thingie just to make sure.

[leftynyc]

25. No - I think it's better

the way you're doing it. That's why I said you either forgot it OR you were just making a point. You were quite obviously making the point. I don't even know where to find the sarcasm thing and find those emoticons juvenile. Keep making people think - you're doing a service.

[Fla Dem]

38. I agree. What the man did was rape a child repeatedly.

It is not acceptable in the country he now resides and sought asylum in. To allow it to continue is insane.

[leftynyc]

42. Everyone involved in that marriage

except for the 12 year old child they sold off - is to blame. His parents, her parents. Sick of that perverted culture that allows child marriage. And before someone gets their pc hackles up, I do realize child marriage is not legal in all Muslim countries. But is IS legal in Yemen and it's sick.

[hifiguy]

72. And in a Western nation

they would all be in prison. Justifiably so.

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. Uh no we don't....

[PersonNumber503602]

45. I find it amusing how so many on here still take your posts as your actual real thoughts, and not

a sarcastic criticism. I think it's the second or third post of yours in the last couple days I've see that.

[FrodosPet]

48. I tend to be a living breathing manifestation of Poe's Law

I've long felt the urge to pull people out of their comfort zone to try to help them consider a wide range of opinions and ideas.

[PersonNumber503602]

49. Yeah, I figured that out awhile ago.

I don't recall the specific topics, but at first I did a WTF, but it became clear once I read some more.

[melman]

53. It's DU

There are people that actually think and post like that for real.

[Trailrider1951]

50. WTF??? Slavery used to be an acceptable part of American culture

That did not make it right!

[KamaAina]

57. That marriage was arranged for political reasons.

British historian William Montgomery Watt suggests that Muhammad hoped to strengthen his ties with Abu Bakr; the strengthening of ties commonly served as a basis for marriage in Arabian culture.

Supposedly Muhammad delayed consummating the marriage as long as he could without causing tongues to wag.

[uppityperson]

81. Is this sarcasm?

[FrodosPet]

84. From me, yes

From some other people, alas, not so much.

NO ONE should be marrying children.

NO ONE. Not Mormons, not Muslims, not Catholics, not Baptists, not Pastafarians.

NO ONE should be marrying and impregnating children.

[uppityperson]

85. Thanks. I've gotten in trouble before for making what seemed to me obvious sarcasm

but others missed it.

[JDPriestly]

30. Young girls are likely to die in childbirth.

The body of a young teenager or child is not mature enough to carry and bear a child, much less raise one.

And when a girl marries while still a child or has a child while still very young, she is unlikely to finish an education that will allow her to live at anything above the poverty level in a Western society.

Child brides should be protected when they come to the West.

It isn't some sort of judgmental Western attitude that makes marriages with very young girls wrong. It is nature itself.

Our society once accepted marriages of 14-year-olds I have been told.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

But it is generally not healthy for a girl to have a baby so young. That's why it is wrong. It is wrong to put a girl's life at risk in that way.

We should enforce our laws about marriage. We should help the girls but not recognize the marriages in most cases. It might depend on the girl's wishes but they would be hard to determine. Above all, a girl should not be required to keep such marriage vows if she was so young when married.

That is my opinion. If you go to a country to live, you have to respect the laws and customs fo that country.

[davidn3600]

32. I've been saying it for a long time

The culture clash is wider and more complex than many people here seem to realize.

[Democat]

34. Many people here are convinced most cultures are superior to America

No matter what culture, as long as it's different, it's better.

[leftynyc]

71. I don't give a shit

what they think. Any culture that allows for children to be raped and married off is sick and perverted and I'll never apologize for saying so.

[hifiguy]

83. Sad but true.

And still the people who want to "explain away" or justify this kind of barbarism as "just a cultural artifact/practice that cannot be judged" spew their ignorance and bullshit.

Sorry, the fact is that some cultures are objectively better than others, particularly from a human rights standpoint.

[LanternWaste]

39. It's a problem in the US also.

Forced and child marriages happen almost everywhere, yet only 10 states or jurisdictions have specific laws that can be used to prevent or punish forced marriage. The Tahirih survey focused on immigrants, and it identified child marriages or forced marriages, or both, in immigrant communities from 56 countries of origin in Africa, Asia, Europe and the Americas, but it also identified such marriage in so-called American families.

The survey found child marriage or forced marriage, or both, in families of many faiths, including Muslim, Christian (particularly Catholic), Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh. I have seen child and forced marriage in the Orthodox Jewish community, and I know survivors from Mormon and Unification Church backgrounds.

Unchained at Last also requested health department data on the ages of people recently married in New York State, where 16- and 17-year-olds may wed with “parental consent” and 14- and 15-year-olds may wed with judicial approval. The data show that 3,853 children were married between 2000 and 2010.

a 14-year-old married a 26-year-old, a 15-year-old was wed to a 28-year-old, another 15-year-old was wed to a 25-year-old and a 15-year-old married someone age “35 to 39.” All of those marriages were approved by New York judges.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/opinion/americas-child-marriage-problem.html

[Fla Dem]

55. Wow, I didn't expect to see this in the US.

Perhaps maybe in a closed society like the Quakers or extreme religious groups where no records were kept and not officially sanctioned by the states.

But to read that judges actually approved marriages of children between that ages of 10-15 is sickening. Why aren't state legislators passing laws to prohibit forced marriages and ban marriages where one of the parties are not yet legally considered an adult. I don't care what the religious customs are. Laws are passed for reasons and one of the critical tenets of laws are to protect the innocents.

[LittleBlue]

40. There is no right answer here

The irreversible mistake was made in Syria and now Norway has to decide how Islamic practices should be judged under secular Norwegian law.

On one hand, this man is a child rapist. I don't care what culture you come from, impregnating a 12-year-old is horrific.

On the other, there is no good solution for this poor child or her children. She probably won't consent to an abortion. If he is imprisoned, presumably she is destitute. Unless she has family there. At 14, she can't possibly support two kids, or even work at all. Not for several years. So does she go into foster care with 2 kids?

Glad I don't have to decide this case.

[bklyncowgirl]

43. Breaking up this marriage might be worse than allowing it to continue.

On the other hand it must be made clear to people from the Islamic world coming into western countries that the laws of their new country are what matters going forward. There is a legal age for marriage in our world and frankly no one gives a damn what the customs are in your country.

You don't like it--go back to that paradise you and your family fled from.

[PersonNumber503602]

47. I don't see how it can be worse for her now.

She's a child who will be protected by progressive laws and progressive child welfare systems in the Norway. I find it difficult to see how any of the children in this situation would be better off continuing a form of life that incompatible with their new home. If the adults in this situation have issues with it, then they really should reconsider their relocation to such a different culture. If they risk becoming violent or harming the children because of this, then they should be kicked out of the country, as they serve to only directly and indirectly worsen the situation for many who are willing to do their part to adjust.

[AngryAmish]

44. It is almost as if these refugees come from a different culture

Last edited Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:19 PM - Edit history (1)

And the values of that culture are different than the West.

So, which culture wins?

[hifiguy]

63. When in Rome, do as the Romans do

has been excellent advice for a very long time.

Most immigrants to the US, for instance, have had no problems.

[leftynyc]

77. I'll go with the culture

that frowns and makes illegal child rape and forced marriage.

[hifiguy]

82. Damn tootin! nt

[Quantess]

86. Excuse me, "Which culture"? Didn't you mean, "RACE"?

After all, muslim is a "race".

According to several DUers anyway, muslim is a race and criticizing islam is racist.

[smirkymonkey]

90. Uh, I would think that would be the culture that doesn't allow

CHILDREN to be raped!

[hunter]

52. We have similar issues in our community with immigrant farmworkers from various places...

... where it's considered ordinary for a sixteen year old to be married with one or two children. These young mothers consider themselves to be fully adult, making adult decisions in every way. And in many ways they are, masters of their own domains, taking care of their children and households, making the meals, doing the laundry, changing the diapers, managing the money, etc., while their husbands are working.

It wasn't so long ago in the U.S.A., in some long established communities, where such relationships were ordinary and nobody considered them abusive.

I have quite a few ancestors who had their first child when they were fifteen or sixteen years old.

Our modern society is quite a bit more complicated, however, and kids are expected to have much more education and experience before we consider them competent to make decisions about life altering events such as marriage and children.

Having babies truly does interfere with education and work experience, middle, high school, and beyond.

My wife and I had our first child after we'd graduated from college and both of us had a few years work experience. Our first child was born after my wife had started graduate school. She didn't take any time off from school, but my wife is a very remarkable woman, nursing a child in one arm, reading a heavy textbook full of hard sciences and maths held in her other arm.

Our kids were straight-A students through high school, and then always distraught when they'd get a B or two in college, mostly from professors they didn't grok, or professors who didn't grok them. It's probably because my wife always read to them as children, not just things like Goodnight Moon by Margaret Wise Brown, but also some very hard-core biochemistry, genetics, human anatomy, and statistics.

I tended to stick more to the children's books in my own reading to our children.

6502 and x86 microprocessor code, network topology, and even blood banking (which was my work at the time), isn't easy to read aloud to small children as poetry. x86 code and everything else Intel or Microsoft is especially ugly.

Older and more experienced, I could probably read 6502, and later, ARM code to children as poetry, or blood banking stuff, but x86 stuff is still like being tied up in some torture chamber dungeon and made to speak while chewing on marbles until they shatter, along with your teeth, making you spit blood. Not something to be shared with children.

[smirkymonkey]

60. WTF?

So we should just allow it to continue? What on earth is wrong with you?

[FrodosPet]

61. "The World" will never do a goddamn thing about anything.

Individuals uniting together are the only ones capable of saving at least SOME children.

[hifiguy]

75. There was a foul on the play

[hifiguy]

58. it's a legitimate issue and an uncomfortable fact.

This kind of shit should neither be accepted nor recognized by the countries accepting refugees. The refugees need to be set straight on what the social norms are in Western societies and have it made clear that they will be welcome only if they accept and live by those norms and that jail time will result if they fail to do so. If they accept Norwegian/German/whatever social norms, no problems.

But I am sure that some have no problem with this, all in the name of absolutist cultural relativism.

[belcffub]

67. I just saw this video on Petapixel today

I have a 12 year old daughter... Can't fathom this

[hifiguy]

76. Just remember, one can't criticise.

That's racist. Clear now?

[leftynyc]

79. That is just fucking sickening

Anyone who defends this practice doesn't deserve to be part of the human race.

[Oneironaut]

68. Not brides - slaves...

These girls had no choice in the matter. That's a slave. Their abductors should be kicked back to where they came from.