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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy LTTE about loon accusing Pres. Obama of not respecting religious tradition of our nation...
I read the letter of Jeffrey T. Karl ["Obama hostile to nation's religious traditions"] with dismay at his lack of historical knowledge.
The writer's source for all these accusations against President Obama was Wall Builders, the brainchild of David Barton, who has admitted to fabricating quotes in his crusade to establish the U.S.A. as a "Christian nation." In 1995, Republican Senator Arlen Specter wrote in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy that many of Barton's arguments "range from the technical to the absurd" and that they "proceed from flawed and highly selective readings of both text and history."
That the founding fathers intended the Constitution to be secular is beyond question; motions to include religious references at the
Constitutional Convention were voted down. We know this from the 1788 pamphlet written by NJ-born Luther Martin, who was a delegate for Maryland.
The Constitution's secularism was decried by colonial clergy. John M. Mason, D.D. complained in a 1793 sermon that the "very Constitution which the singular goodness of God enabled us to establish, does not so much as recognize his being! ... From the Constitution of the United States, it is impossible to ascertain what God we worship; or whether we own a God at all ."
Thomas Jefferson said it even more directly in an 1814 letter to Dr, Thomas Cooper, stating that " Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. "
Anyone who claims the intention of the founding fathers was to establish a Christian nation should review Article 11 of the Treaty with Tripoli declaring that "the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion..." This treaty was negotiated during the administration of George Washington and ratified by the Senate under President Adams. (The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution says the U.S. Constitution, U.S. Treaties, and laws made pursuant to the U.S. Constitution, shall be "the supreme law of the land."
"E Pluribus Unum" was the original U.S. motto put forth by a committee consisting of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Pierre Eugene du Simitiere. It appears on the Great Seal of the United States but was never codified into law. "In God We Trust" is a recent invention, put into law in 1956. No one remembers the names of the congressmen who sponsored that bill.
Our Founding Fathers were wise men and had a healthy skepticism about the role of religion in government. Anyone who claims to respect the traditions of the United States should recognize that fact and stop trying to rewrite history to suit their personal beliefs.
Sincerely,
Rfranklin
K&R
I like the fact that it makes me sound edumacated!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)exactly, the reason your well written, well reasoned, LTTE will be ignored by those attempting to press their false historical claim.
(You should have limited your writing to mono-syllabic terms, highly editted, out of context quotes, dead links and a good measure of name-calling!)
Just kidding ... Good piece.
sarge43
(29,173 posts)I found that quoting Article VI (3) of the Constitution tends to stop that foolishness:
The senators and representatives before mentioned, and the member of the several State legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.(my emphasis)
Can't get more concise.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)rustydog
(9,186 posts)colorado_ufo
(6,252 posts)Loves it!
Bozvotros
(961 posts)How much like a pond full of horny frogs right wingers are? They basically imitate each other and just compete to see who can make the most noise. You can briefly shut up their croaking for a few minutes if you make some noise back, but after a few refreshing moments of silence they resume their cacophony of crap. You brilliantly refuted the patent nonsense, blatant bullshit and historical revisions behind the gurglings of the white spotted christian nation toad. But his song will return louder than ever soon.
ceile
(8,692 posts)raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Embody so very little of the teachings of Christ it'd be laughable if it wasn't so terrible.
They want a Christian nation of war, executions, denying health care, arresting people trying to feed & clothe the homeless, polluting our air & waters, money over morality, zero stewardship of the planet or it's animals. When they say they want a Christian nation it has nothing to do with Christ. They want an Old Testament nation. They don't believe in JC. Never have, never will. They want Leviticus. They want fire & brimstone. Love and compassion is as alien an emotion to them as enjoying the suffering of another human being is to us.
classof56
(5,376 posts)And thank you!
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Mind if I quote you?
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Just glad to know I'm not alone in feeling this way.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Absolutely Beautiful in Their Truth.
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)All too often, what I tend to notice that these types tend to interact in a belligerent way toward everybody/everything that is not them and theirs; snarling and nasty 6 days a week, but "a good christian" on sundays....or at least sunday mornings.
mlevans
(843 posts)Thanks for sharing it.
starroute
(12,977 posts)I saw an ad for his latest book in the margin of some blog or other. Something like "The Lies About Jefferson."
I didn't have the heart to check out the details -- but clearly Jefferson's refusal to subscribe to anything resembling conventional Christianity is a problem for them, and one way or another they're determined to rewrite history to solve it.
surrealAmerican
(11,879 posts)k & r
... well written, and to the point ...
I hope it gets published.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)I've bookmarked it because I'm quite sure I will need to refer to it at some point between now and November.
Rozlee
(2,529 posts)They were far from perfect. The had slaves, they denied the rights of Native Americans while asserting their lack of full humanity as they did those of slaves, and Benjamin Franklin was a sexual reprobate (in a nice way) once writing a pamplet called, "Advice To A Young Man On The Choice Of A Mistress" and joking about how he was surprised he'd never gotten an STD from all his randy exploits.
In various of the thirteen colonies, Catholic schools were banned, priests could not give mass, they were kept out of public office and their ballot was denied. Thomas Paine wrote a book, "The Age of Reason" that debunked the Bible and Thomas Jefferson wrote "The Jefferson Bible, the Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth", in which he removed all references to Jesus' divinity and once referred to St. Paul as the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus," and to his apostles as a "band of dupes and impostors." As an atheist, I don't consider many of the above all bad, but still, the right-wing demagogues certainly don't want to hear it. And I'm sure if I met the founding fathers, I'd like a great many of them and would love their enlightened view toward secularism. Some, I'm sure, would probably turn me off and remind me of teabaggers.
PADemD
(4,482 posts)I've got it on Kindle, but my daugher's been wanting to read it and I'll give her the link. I'd like to show it to by teabagger sister, but she'd probably say it was a lie-brul fabrication.
elleng
(141,926 posts)watch the show/movie '1776.'
Rozlee
(2,529 posts)Not too evil since they canceled on Limbaugh. We'll try and watch it this weekend.
elleng
(141,926 posts)and couldn't live without it!
Its usually shown on The Tee Vee around July 4!
Saw it at Ford's Theater a couple of weeks ago!
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)to ratify it.
longship
(40,416 posts)R&
madmom
(9,681 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)elleng
(141,926 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,848 posts)great job
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)Their eyes glaze over when you tell them that.
Good letter!
jwirr
(39,215 posts)did this they need only to read European history in the centuries before the Declaration was signed. Europe was devistated by one religious war after another trying to decide what religion their nation states would be. Our founders learned their lessons from them.
Martin Eden
(15,626 posts)Wind Dancer
(3,618 posts)K & R
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)There were two court systems in England. What we would call civil law applied the common law. There was also a system of ecclesiastical law or courts of equity. Certain matters in US law are decided in equity -- such as ordering people to do or not do things. If you get an injunction, you are probably petitioning the court in equity.
People who are interested can look this up. It's fascinating. But we, of course, do not have priests or pastors sitting on the benches of our courtrooms. We could not do that because we have so many different religions. And believe me, if you put the churches in charge of the judicial system, we would have big, big trouble in no time.
In fact, our courts will not decide religious questions. If people in your church disagree about some interpretation of the Bible, you cannot go to a state or federal court to get a decision as to who is right. A judge may be a religious person and may pray in his chambers before he signs a decision, but the judge will not require the parties in the courtroom to pray before he hands down his decision.
For me, that proves the fact that we are a nation of people of many faiths and no faith at all. We do not have ecclesiastical or sharia law. Thank God.
daaron
(763 posts)A few comments for you, rfranklin:
Nice writing! The one thing I miss most about reading newspapers, as opposed to blog posts, is grammatically correct and proofed stories and letters. I just wince at intelligent people loosing bad writing on an already ignorant world.
Nice synopsis! These are definitely top talking points to remember when dealing with the theocrats in our midst. I read it all thrice just to burn it into my brainpan. Others are probably better suited to supply additional examples in line with your OP, so I'll limit myself to this next, last, kinda oddball comment:
As you say, the U.S.A. was not founded on Christian principles. It's also not conspiracy theory to state that it was founded, in large part (with huge contributions from English common law and the Iroquois, of course) on Freemasonic principles -- from the very idea of a Constitution as a foundation-stone (the earliest references to a "Constitution" in this particular sense can be traced to proto-Masonic orders in the 17th century), to the wall of separation of Church and State (discussing religion and politics is a no-no in the Lodge, and any adult male of any religion could join -- plus, most Lodges began desegregation in the 19th century, hitting a major speed-bump from the '20s to the '60s). Other examples exist, and there's some excellent books on the subject. Usually folks just point out that most of the Founders were Masons, but that's not the relevant part. What is relevant is that they drew heavily on Freemasonry to craft a Secular Republic in which freedom of conscience was a primary characteristic. Today, 1 in 12 adult males is a Freemason (albeit according to the Freemasons, with secret membership impossible to verify).
For too long we've dismissed anything to do with fraternal orders and secret societies as conspiracy fluff, when it's actually just some interesting U.S. history that deserves better treatment. Fraternities? The Greek System? We can thank Jonathan Edwards and the Skull and Bones Society of Yale for establishing that American curiosity. Would anyone say that the history of Frats and Sororities is conspiracy fluff? Why then dismiss the trunk from which these later organizations branched?
It helps: the U.S. was founded on Freemasonic and Native American principles, not Christian principles -- and these are decidedly, emphatically secular. They are at the heart of the Enlightenment (c.f. Dame Francis Yates, "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment"
, and the Enlightenment is at the heart of the U.S.A.
Great post!
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)I did not realize that and I have Freemasons in my midst.
11 Bravo
(24,310 posts)Little Jeffrey just got his ass handed to him for everyone to see!
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)Nope, not that one...not that one either! Aaaah shit!
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)no one is more cocksure than the stupid.
chollybocker
(3,687 posts)Thanks for sharing it with us.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)No, seriously, that is a fine letter.
History (accurate history even), logic, authority.
Nice work.
Eric J in MN
(35,639 posts)NT
The Wizard
(13,735 posts)for people who can't handle drugs.