I love Muslims

[Flying Squirrel]

Some of them, anyway. I also love some Christians, some Jews and some Atheists. Personally I'm Agnostic. I'm not religious. I do love the fact that nobody has ever tried to convert me to Islam or Judaism - can't say the same about Christianity. But I still love the people I love regardless of the way I feel about their religion (which is basically, fine for you but don't push it on me).

I'm pretty sure the real reason for the Muslim-hating has more to do with their skin color and their daring to not conform to the way others think they should look, than the actual fear of terrorism. That's just a welcome excuse to be openly bigoted.

[951-Riverside]

1. "nobody has ever tried to convert me to Islam or Judaism - can't say the same about Christianity."

Whoa you're right on the money about that one.

The various Christianity offshoots especially Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are very aggressive about converting people.

[Warpy]

3. I can't imagine the level of pig ignorance it takes

to assume somebody in this god addled country has never heard of Jesus. Still, as long as the pests and bullies are trying to convert us, they're not making more enemies abroad.

I had some wonderful online talks with an English professor in central Asia, a self professed devout Shi'a Muslim. I'm an atheist who had much more in common with him than with any bornagain evangelical Christian, something that floored me. And no, he never tried to convert me and I returned the favor.

As for the door knockers, they avoid my house. Night nurses are rabid when someone wakes us up, especially to sell us Jesus.

[hifiguy]

50. The only time in my adult life I ever shouted at someone in public

was at a singularly obnoxious Mormon "missionary" who followed me down the street after I politely told him I wasn't interested. I finally had to yell at him that I have been a secular humanist/atheist since I was 20 and threatened to call a cop if he didn't bugger off.

[KamaAina]

57. And then there are the Southern Baptists

who once held their annual convention in Salt Lake City for the express purpose of converting Mormons!

[SheilaT]

2. Several years ago

we carpooled with a classmate of my older son's, a muslim from Pakistan. The kids went to a private school, which is why I was driving high school students. Aside from the fact that the young woman I'm referring to was a wonderful person, I got to learn all sorts of good things about her religion.

I think the most important thing is that Islam, like the other two monotheistic religions, has at its core a strong belief in charity and helping others. I learned a bit about the major holidays, and a few years later was privileged to be invited to the dinner that marks the end of Ramadan, Eid, by some other muslims we knew. I was genuinely honored that they would include us in this celebration.

.

[Yorktown]

6. There is no evidence religious people are more helpful or generous than unbelievers

I think the most important thing is that Islam, like the other two monotheistic religions, has at its core a strong belief in charity and helping others.

The belief in charity and helping others is universal among populations.

Religions just appropriate those generous impulses without contributing anything detectable.

And speaking of the Quran -like the Torah/Old Testament-, it is a book which contains a very small fraction of positive, universal messages.

Roughly 100 to 200 positive moral verses out of 6000.

[SheilaT]

7. Perhaps. But I learned some essential things

about Islam through this experience.

Personally, I'm a total non believer. I'm capable of very negative thoughts about organized religion But the experience of car-pooling gave me an insight into Islam I otherwise would never have had.

[Yorktown]

10. you had an experience with nice people

I would never argue that religion makes everyone nasty.

But generally, nice believers just pick the nice bits of the 'holy' books

People who really drink the whole religious Kool Aid adhere to the nasty bits too.

And there are quite a few nasty bits in the Quran/Old Testament/etc.

[SheilaT]

24. I am not saying that religion makes people nice.

What I am saying is that the essential teachings of the three monotheistic religions involve niceness.

I am a devout non believe myself, and I was fascinated by what I learned from my Muslim acquaintance.

In more recent times, I am still a non believer but I have good friends who are Presbyterians, and it is through them that I do my feeding of the homeless.

I do clearly understand that these are very personal encounters, and do not represent any sort of data, but I nonetheless offer these experiences to DU.

[Yorktown]

28. Well, I'm glad you met nice people

[Maedhros]

4. I met several Iranian and Ethiopian Musliims in grad school.

Each was an exemplary human being.

I have several West African Muslim friends now.

Each is an exemplary human being.

[yuiyoshida]

5. For nearly five years

I have had pizza delivered to me from the same place. The guy who runs it is Muslim, and is the nicest guy you could ever met. He knows, I am loyal to his place and has often tossed in an extra soda for free, or added something I didn't order, as a thank you. Last year I told him it was my birthday and got a free Pizza, which he insisted on. (tried to tip the driver but he insisted that he was good and Happy Birthday!)

The only thing of recent, is that they have changed their hours, so they no longer stay till 3am, but leave after 12 midnight now. I miss those late night snacks, but really, Who needs the extra calories, I know I don't!

[SheilaT]

8. Wow. I have a son who does pizza delivery,

and I'm in awe of your description. My son works for one of the several major pizza chains, and so what you've described isn't very likely to happen with him, and I'm extremely grateful for your story.

[yuiyoshida]

12. The place that delivers is not a chain, but

simply what they call a "mom and pop" business, though there is no mom there, just a couple of brothers and their friends.


prices aren't bad either -just part of their menu:

[safeinOhio]

20. Wow

I can see 3 or 4 on that menu I want to try.

[yuiyoshida]

29. They don't even have a real

dinning area, although there is a shelf and some stools to sit on while looking out the window, its a mostly pick up and take out kinda of place. All the guys who work there are long time resident Middle Easterners..who have a thriving business.

[safeinOhio]

31. Could I order one of those Veggies one plus

anchovies?

[yuiyoshida]

32. absolutely

http://www.yelp.com/biz/taraval-pizza-san-francisco

[Tipperary]

9. The countries where that religion is dominant

treat women as second class citizens, allow child rape, and murder gay people.

No thanks.

[Flying Squirrel]

11. In this country Christianity is dominant

Yet we had child labor, slavery, the KKK, witch burning, women didn't get the right to vote for nearly 200 years (and are still for the most part treated as second-class citizens), so-called Christians murder gay people (and shoot up abortion clinics) and churches protected pedophile priests for a very long time.

If you're gonna blame all the bad things that happen in Muslim countries on Islam, I'd be willing to bet that people in Muslim countries are thinking some similar thoughts about our predominately Christian nation.

I do believe that all religions are to blame for many evils. They also all have good points. They're like people that way. Probably because they were created by people, and are therefore imperfect and capable of both good and evil.

So, I love individual people, and do not condemn entire segments of the population for their religion, because I do not condemn the entire human race for being imperfect and capable of evil.

[Tipperary]

13. I have no problem with individuals of any religion.

You can say anything you want about western nations and their history, but those countries that are predominantly Islamic are in a different century than the one the western nations are currently living in.

[Flying Squirrel]

14. Stereotypes make life much simpler

But don't take my word for it, google "predominately Islamic countries" for yourself and you'll find over 50 of them, all very different and definitely not all of them "living in a different century." Indonesia, Turkey, plenty of interesting countries that don't fit the stereotype. That being the case, you can't very well blame Islam (completely) for all the evils in the more backward countries.

[Yorktown]

18. I do not like Christianity, but people living in Muslim countries are unhappy

See the UN commoissioned World happiness index

Or the freedom of the press index. Or gender equality indexes.

'Muslim' countries fare very poorly, and it's got something to do with the ideology.

[Flying Squirrel]

19. I'm sure it does

But I'm sure it also has to do with a variety of other factors as well such as overpopulation and poverty. The point is, why blame Islam for everything? Sure, blame it for some of it (just make sure you're also blaming other religions for their part in spreading unhappiness) but don't condemn the entire religion. People are basically good IMO and so there must be good they are seeing in the religions they choose to follow or those religions would not be predominant in the world. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in those religions. There's definitely room for improvement in Christianity, but when some people condemn the entire religion as a result it's completely unproductive.

[Yorktown]

23. I think Christianity is on the way out, but that Muslims are stuck with Islam

Christianity is now a minority religion in Scandinavia and France, and keeps declining.
'No religious affiliation' is now one full quarter of the US population.

That's currently impossible in 'Muslim' countries.
Recently, an Egyptian has been condemned to two years hard labor for saying he's an Atheist.
Atheist bloggers have been hacked to death in Bangladesh with tacit police complicity.

So Muslims in Muslim countries are locked with gender inequality, and harsh repression of imaginary crimes. That's an unnecessary cherry on top of other social ills.

[Oneironaut]

26. Sorry, but it is Islam.

Ever notice how the most backwards societies tend to cater to fundamentalists? That's the Middle East's current problem. The religious nut jobs are ruining any prospect they have of modernizing.

I have no problem with Muslims. Islam, on the other hand, is oppressive and archaic. It has outdated ideas that have no place in this society, just like Christianity and all other religions.

Also, the examples you gave for the U.S. are mostly from over 100 years ago, whereas theocracies where Islam is prominent still have the same problems. The more secular a society is, the more modernized.

[romanic]

30. Hit the nail on the head.

I do not hate muslims at all, but I do hate the Islamic theocracies that continue to oppress their populace with dogmatic societal norms and "laws".

[treestar]

36. There are Muslims who live in a more moderate way

not all of the countries are theocratic dictatorships. They may use the religion to keep power. It's not the religion itself, but the way it is used in politics in certain countries.

The Soviets lived in a dictatorship enforcing no religion. Atheism is no protection either. It's the history and politics and lack of freedom of speech, right to assembly, etc.

[Oneironaut]

39. Here's a good thought experiment:

If a government enforced every rule in a religious text, what would that society be like?

The moderate Muslim societies are moderate because they ignore more parts of the Koran than other Muslim societies.

[Tipperary]

38. Well said.

[closeupready]

45. How much did you spend filling up your gas tank last year?

[EX500rider]

56. What many muslim countries have that the West does not:

Apostasy:

Today, apostasy is a crime in 23 out 49 Muslim majority countries; in many other Muslim nations such as Indonesia and Morocco, apostasy is indirectly covered by other laws. It is subject in some countries, such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, to the death penalty, although executions for apostasy are rare. Apostasy is legal in secular Muslim countries such as Turkey. In numerous Islamic majority countries, many individuals have been arrested and punished for the crime of apostasy without any associated capital crimes. In a 2013 report based on an international survey of religious attitudes, more than 50% of the Muslim population in 6 Islamic countries supported the death penalty for any Muslim who leaves Islam (apostasy). A similar survey of the Muslim population in the United Kingdom, in 2007, found nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-old faithfuls believed that Muslims who convert to another religion should be executed, while less than a fifth of those over 55 believed the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Islam

[Quantess]

15. How about inviting some muslim refugees to live in your home?

You'd be making some new friends and helping people.

[Tipperary]

16. I second that suggestion.

Hopefully squirrel will let us know how that goes.

[Flying Squirrel]

17. I wouldn't mind any more than I'd mind taking in a non-Muslim

But it wouldn't be my call to make, the house isn't mine. Not sure whether this was a real suggestion or hyperbole/sarcasm/whatever though. Obviously the other person responding to you was being sarcastic. It's to be expected, I suppose.

[Quantess]

21. Some people in europe are doing just that,

and the politicians in some countries are encouraging that citizens let refugees live in their homes, because of the shortage of shelters.

It's not anything I came up with myself, and it's up to the individual to interpret.

[Quantess]

22. Most of the conversation is just feel-good hot-air, but some people are really doing it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/british-families-open-homes-asylum-seekers-refugees

http://www.thelocal.de/20150910/meet-the-germans-offering-their-homes-to-refugees

[Tipperary]

25. Convenient.

[Quantess]

48. Feel-good, hot-air.

A lot of nice talk, no action.

[closeupready]

41. It was definitely sarcasm, not an honest proposal.

[Quantess]

46. How can it be sarcastic when people in europe are actually doing it?

It was NOT sarcasm. It was more of a challenge.

Are you just full of feel-good hot-air? Or do you actually want to contribute, the same way that Europe is contributing?

[cwydro]

49. I think you nailed it right here:

"just full of feel-good hot-air"

[closeupready]

64. Okay, then I apologize to you.

I don't understand your counter-questions to me - can you be more specific please?

[treestar]

37. Very right wing

The political over all situation is what we'd be discussing.

If I could afford it, I would do that. I'm not afraid of them for being Muslim. Your post implies you are.

[closeupready]

42. Implication or time-tested fact? IMO, the latter.

[treestar]

43. What is the time tested fact?

There is reason to fear a Muslim roommate?

[closeupready]

44. The part of your post which you claim is implied.

That part of your post is not just an implication, but (as someone who has posted here for over ten years) a claim which can be supported by years of threads relating to issues on the topic of Islam, arabs, terrorism, etc.

To go any further with this on the thread here would be a prohibited call-out, and if you want to ask more, then I'd suggest you PM me, but I hope my post is clear enough.

[Quantess]

47. Would YOU take muslim refugees into your home?

That is what some european households are doing. What are YOU doing to help the refugees?

Feel-good hot-air

[treestar]

52. We as a society is what I am talking about

US helps the refugees without people taking them into their homes.

You sound like a Libertarian with this what are YOU doing.

[Quantess]

55. "US helps the refugees without people taking them into their homes."

I sure hope so! Links, please?

[treestar]

59. weren't there states saying they would refuse to cooperate with the programs?

by using their control over state funds. They are provided cash and medical assistance and helped to get jobs, etc.

https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=lw&ei=205OVvSUEcSt-QGTt4T4AQ&ved=0CAQQqS4oAQ#q=refugee+resettlement+program

[Quantess]

58. No, because I don't live in the USA.

I live in Sweden. Libertarian is not a thing here.

Sweden's government nearly collapsed because of the flood of asylum seekers. The budget is in total collapse here, because Sweden has been so helpful and so generous.

USA needs to do their part!!

[Quantess]

51. You first! You take in some Muslim refugees!

Haha... you are all talk, no action.

People in Europe are opening their homes to refugees, (mostly Muslims). Why can't you?!

Walk the Talk.

[treestar]

53. Not the point.

Why do you think you needed to post the same response twice?

[Quantess]

54. So, you are more into preaching than doing. I see...

Europe is actually living the refugee crisis, while the USA is watching and judging, and the DU on a whole is reacting like a bunch of holier-than-thou, judgmental, morally superior people who are all talk and no action.

I posted the same post twice? Sorry that must have been a glitch or someting.

Post some links to make your point, please.

[treestar]

60. The US takes refugees too.

For its entire history the US has been a refuge!

http://www.state.gov/j/prm/ra/

http://www.rescue.org/resettling-refugees-us

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/refugees-fact-sheet

[Quantess]

61. Per capita, Sweden takes in the most asylum seekers.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart

The USA comes nowhere close.

[cwydro]

63. It bears repeating.

Quantess is speaking truth, while others just blow a lot of hot air while patting themselves on the back.

[treestar]

65. No, we are talking about what we do as a society

We do not have to take in the homeless either to argue our government should do something with our tax money for the homeless. Libertarians are the ones who say this, and I have heard it from them. Didn't YOU take in the homeless? Because they think it should all be a matter of individual charity.

[tblue37]

27. I love lamp. nt

[Herman4747]

33. But do Muslims love you? nt

[treestar]

34. Their fear of terrorism is sort of misplaced too

especially in regard to the refugees. While there is some chance we will be the victims of Islamic terrorism, most victims of it are Muslims.

[H2O Man]

35. I love you.

Recommended.

[closeupready]

40. While I agree with you, this board is very small, and insular.

You'll get a handful of snarky replies which resemble the replies those same people gave yesterday to someone else, and you'll get some sincere posts, and then this thread will die quickly.

Relatedly (and sorry if it's meta-), in my opinion DU had potential to be something in its early days, but the membership - for whatever reason - has taken a rightward shift, and it's starting to become a really boring carbon copy of thousands of other internet message boards, that hate on religious minorities, hate on arabs and Jews, and who can be bothered, what honest liberal wants to contribute to a board with a membership like that? I certainly am having second thoughts.

Part of that shift is the passing of valuable people like, for example, Blondeatlast, or LiberalLeftyLawyer, or Rowdyboy. Others like bobolink no longer participate here (I imagine in some ways, because of the shift I have described).

[MADem]

66. I remember when DU liked Al Gore and Joe Lieberman.

And John Edwards, and Bill Clinton. And Hillary, Tipper and Hadassah, too! People actually had NICE things to say about the Democratic leadership, and worked to elect more Democrats, and fewer Republicans, to public office.

I miss that DU (even though I think Lieberman turned out to be a bit of a turd, and Zipper Problem Edwards should have left the stage sooner).

Nowadays, the way DEMOCRATS -- real, actual, long-term, hard working, elected Democrats-- are talked abut here, one would think we were on Free Republic. There are some people here who don't have a good word to say about ANY Democrats, ever. I wonder why they suffer so, posting here?

So, yeah, DU "has" changed. And I do miss that "old school" DU.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

67. Muslims come in all colors.

"I'm pretty sure the real reason for the Muslim-hating has more to do with their skin color and their daring to not conform to the way others think they should look, than the actual fear of terrorism. That's just a welcome excuse to be openly bigoted."

I'm surprised someone on DU didn't know that.

[herding cats]

68. I am ambivalent toward all religions.

Muslims included. I can see the good and bad in all of them, and don't believe in judging any of them with a broad brush. They all have a right to their beliefs so long as they don't harm others. When they do, I disagree.

Which is just me being honest. I suppose I'm either an atheist or an agnostic. I neither care, nor feel the need to categorize myself.

I think in in many countries we're told what we should believe and by and large, we do. We're indoctrinated at young ages on what we're supposed to believe and follow due to social constructs, for the majority, that's exactly what we do. Without thought or question. Even when those thoughts and questions aren't a matter of life or death, literally speaking. It's more a case of go along to get a long. Which never seems to work out well for a culture. Ours not excluded.

I realize what I'm saying may seem non sequitur to some. I don't personally see it that way, though. It's all nuances of the same for me.

I can love you and your religion, up to the point your faith is harming others. When it targets me and mine specifically, I'm going to have an even harder time validating my tolerance for your faith. Then, I may still love you as an individual, but my respect of your faith dwindles the more it harms others. Which really isn't a metric on how I may still feel about you as an individual. It's just a measure of how we disagree about religion, and that which yours might find acceptable.

Obviously, I'm not just speaking of current fad here.