Saudi Arabia to behead teenager for attending protest

[LittleBlue]

Abdullah ah-Zaher became the youngest person given the death sentence, according to campaigners Reprieve.

Campaigners claim Abdullah ah-Zaher, who attended the protest four years ago was put on death row as part of a crackdown on political dissent.

The 19-year-old has been moved to solitary confinement and could be beheaded at any moment.

Despite possible repercussions, his family have gone public with his story, in a final bid to save his life.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/627602/Saudi-Arabia-orders-execution-teenager


Our allies are at it again

[KamaAina]

1. Tell me again why we put up with their crap?

Oh, right.

[Hortensis]

61. oh, yes. They're a sovereign nation.

It is the people of Saudia Arabia who "put up" with this.

[KamaAina]

73. Ahem...

[Hortensis]

75. Ahem, nothing. Silly. There are people who believe America

has a right and a duty to take over sovereign nations and force them to behave as we would like them to. They are conservatives, like Bush and Cheney, who believe in a concept of American Exceptionalism that calls for just that. And, of course, in the process, we can just take the oil as long as we wave the flag high and proud while doing so.

Are you SURE you want us to invade and occupy the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in a certainly disastrous attempt to force our culture on them? Because that is what it would take.

[KamaAina]

78. No, I just want us to throw them under the bus

and stop selling them all those big, shiny war toys.

[Hortensis]

81. You may be happy then that the House of Saud is

in the process of falling under the bus, KamaAina. It's so beset by problems that we could wake up any morning to find it's fallen. Daesh and other terrorist groups would also be delighted.

SA's government doesn't have many admirers in the U.S., to put it mildly, but there have been a number of very good reasons we didn't just slap on sanctions and turn away in disgust. For instance, SA is the main power keeping Iran's theocracy and other Shia Muslims in check. It's also been a stabilizing factor in the Middle East in other ways.

We're currently relatively independent of Saudi oil - for use, but the world economy is not. Not only has SA has always used surplus producing capacity to stabilize the world oil supply, but taking out Saudi's oil production, as might happen in the chaos after the fall of the central government, could literally lead to a collapse of the world economy.

BTW, thanks to Republicans' determination to lessen the power of government to interfere with business, the economic fire walls that we once erected to keep a domino-cascade of market failures from sweeping unimpeded across our economy have mostly been eliminated. The Sauds may have lots of company under that bus.

The Middle East presents many, many problems aside from but very intertwined with this that have to somehow be kept from blowing up in the world's face. And our power to do so is actually very limited, as has been proven many times over. It's not that we think it's okay to execute children, there or here, although, of course, some of us do.

[MH1]

86. Thank you for adding perspective.

It's always amazing to me that on this site where so many are so vociferously opposed to war, and some to even military service, when something like the Middle East come up there always seem to be an assumption that the US can dictate how those countries will operate. (Not saying those are the same posters though, that could explain some of the disconnect. But if I checked it I believe I would find significant overlap.)

Or to put it another way ... how's that "Arab Spring" working out?

[Hortensis]

91. Exactly. All those nations had centralized governments,

too, which newly urbanized populations depend on for...everything needed to live. Not like the U.S., with its semi-automomous state, country, city and town governments.

[Jesus Malverde]

84. Even deeper than the oil...

It's the currency that it's traded in the almighty "petro dollar".

[orwell]

2. Tell us again, oh vaunted MSM...

...why we attacked Iraq after 9/11?

[HughBeaumont]

7. SOMEone had to pay . . . .

. . . . and it sure as shit wasn't going to be the BFEE's BFFs.

It's like they were never at the scene. Or in the planes, whichever . . .

[ChisolmTrailDem]

3. This is completely unacceptable from a U.S. ally! What is Sec. Kerry and President Obama going to..

...do about this barbarism?

[LittleBlue]

6. I really hope they intervene

Someone needs to step up and say something about this. .

[Recursion]

31. They're not a US ally

I mean, there is actually a list of US allies. It's the NATO countries plus Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Jordan, New Zealand, Argentina, Bahrain, Philippines, Thailand, Kuwait, Morocco, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Tunisia.

The US describes its relationship with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia as a "friendship", but that's true of almost every country.

[Jesus Malverde]

85. We "the USA" won't do shit...nt

[Iggo]

4. Our noble allies in the war on terror. (n/t)

[Recursion]

33. No, the US has specifically never characterized them as our "allies"

Whereas that designation has been used for several other countries in the region (Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Bahrain, Kuwait, and Turkey).

[Rex]

63. They've been our allies since we joined together to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

We are close to SA and seem to turn a blind eye when they remind us of how barbaric their system of government is.

[leftynyc]

8. While everyone seems to be only

decrying the fact these people are our allies, I'm stuck with thinking about the culture that would do this. sharia law is an abomination to civilization. I would have no problem cutting off and expressing disgust to any country that uses religion this way.

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. Hillary Clinton supports the death penalty.

"Curiously, Clinton's position puts her at odds with Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, whom her husband, former president Bill Clinton, nominated to the bench in 1994 and who has lately come out as as a vocal opponent of the legality of the practice.

The same year he appointed Breyer, Clinton signed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 -- also known as the 1994 crime bill -- which vastly expanded the federal death penalty to about 60 offenses.

Bill Clinton has since renounced the law, whose main provisions are largely seen as responsible for driving up mass incarceration in the United States."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-death-penalty_56310eb4e4b00aa54a4c48c9

[leftynyc]

36. So do well over half

of Americans. What that has to do with sharia law declaring they can cut your head off for attending a protest is beyond me. Does that kind of moral relativism really make sense in your mind or do you just feel the need to deflect from the fact they're going to cut off this guy's head for attending a protest?

[Recursion]

32. That may be why they are not among our allies

There is actually a list, and Saudi Arabia isn't on it.

[leftynyc]

37. I've never seen this list

Do you have a link to one? Meanwhile the only other person to comment to me tried to compare the US having the death penalty means it's the same as the Saudis cutting off someone's head for attending a protest. It's those kinds of comparisons that make people roll their eyes at the left. I was decrying sharia law - laws that call for the death penalty for blasphemy and attending a protest, holding hands with your boyfriend - we wont even discuss what they do to gays. Anyone making that comparison to the US justice system is too far gone in hating the US, they cannot be reasoned with.

[Recursion]

39. Section 2350a of Title 10 of the US code establishes it

And section 2321k of Title 22 gave the President the power to expand it subject to Congressional approval.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally

This and NATO are the only two classes of "alliance" the US government officially acknowledges (there used to be ANZUS as well, but it got folded in to MNNA).

[leftynyc]

40. Wow - what a strange list

Saudi Arabia not on it but Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bahrain, Kuwait and Jordan are.

[Recursion]

41. Oh, its history is a fascinating bit of ad-hockery

That said, Saudi Arabia would like to be on that list, and is not.

[leftynyc]

42. Thank you for posting that link

Makes for some interesting - but confusing - reading.

[Recursion]

45. No problem! There are rumors of India being added

But that might be way too provocative to PRC. (It would also infuriate Pakistan, and we'd be in the odd position of having two allies in an undeclared war with each other, though that's not unprecedented.)

[Chan790]

47. There are way too many countries on that list...

and several whose continued membership should have conditions attached because they seem to consistently take actions hostile to our interests abroad; I mean that's their right as autonomous actors but it doesn't make them very good allies.

[Recursion]

56. True, but Saudi Arabia is not among them

That's kind of my point.

[Chan790]

79. Noted...and I was just making the observation.

I'm rather glad the Saudis aren't on that list. Any future effort to add them must have a human rights "motivator" attached to it.

[smirkymonkey]

58. +1000

[killbotfactory]

9. Before we throw stones, let's abolish the death penalty in the US. nt

[saturnsring]

10. so much for nuance

[killbotfactory]

13. Of course, I forgot, we only execute guilty people. nt

[saturnsring]

15. how many were executed for attending protests

[killbotfactory]

17. I'm not defending Saudi Arabia, I just want to stop all state-sanctioned murder. nt

[Chan790]

49. You mean...

other than the targeting and sham conviction of Joe Hill?

[saturnsring]

71. well he wasnt arrested and executed for attending a protest and it happened 100 years ago

but other than that .....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. No, but you do only execute people convicted of serious crimes after due process. N.T.

[closeupready]

22. Which is still unacceptable, but hey, someone on DU implies it is acceptable, so

I guess that trumps any and all prevailing human rights standards.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. I wouldn't go as far as "acceptable", but I would go as far as "not nearly as bad".

While I'm against the death penalty (I'm OK with execution of guilty people, but I have moral qualms about executing innocent people, and while your courts are administered by fallible mortals you can't have one without the other), I'd be quite capable of arguing for it as it is applied in the USA plausibly in a debating club.

I couldn't even begin to argue for this.

[LittleBlue]

11. Big difference

Between someone executed for killing another person and someone executed for merely being seen at a protest.

I think we should throw stones until this boy is freed, not advocate inaction because some of our states still use the DP.

[DFW]

12. Fully agree

Although "cultural imperialism" seldom turns out well, there are certain world norms these days that do not justify holding onto norms of 8 centuries ago just to satisfy the blood lust of a few male religious fanatics.

[Iggo]

16. Nope. I'll throw stones now.

[killbotfactory]

18. That's cool. Please support the abolition of the death penalty in the US. nt

[Iggo]

19. Always have. Always will. (n/t)

[snooper2]

59. As long as we still have 50 year old men raping 4 year old girls, I'll stick with it

[killbotfactory]

72. I'm sure the Saudi power structure hates this teen just as much as we hate pedophile rapists

if it makes you feel any better.

[kcr]

21. I am very much agasint the death penalty and want the US to abolish it

But we don't execute teenagers for going to protests. There is no equating that with what we do and doing so will only embolden the other side and make it that much harder to fight for what's right. Just stop.

[840high]

27. ...+1

[NightWatcher]

23. Here we only execute the mentally il, those too poor to mount a defense, and

Oh yeah the occasional monster.

End the death penalty here, THEN we can lecture others on ethics.

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. I support ending the death penalty here. NOW I'll say a hearty FUCK YOU to Saudi Arabia for

executing protesters.

Fuck them and the mound of sand they crawled out from under. Fuck them and their oil. Fuck them and their backward ways.

I support ending the death penalty here. NOW I'll say Saudi Arabia can take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.

[leftynyc]

38. I think I'm quite capable of

doing both. The lengths people are going to in order to minimize sharia law is mind boggling. And don't even bother saying you're not trying to minimize it - deflecting onto the US justice system when it comes to cutting off someone's head for attending a protest, or for blasphemy or for holding hands with someone you're not married to is something ALL of us should be standing up against. Not trying to minimize it by changing the subject with some bullshit moral relativism.

[killbotfactory]

66. It's not minimizing, it's pointing out the death penalty is barbaric.

No matter who does it, how they do it, or why.

[sorefeet]

74. I agree NightWatcher

end the death penalty NOW. With over 150 people let out of prison from death row in the last ten years or so, how many innocent people over lets say the last 100 years have been executed in this country? Thousands of innocent people have died I would assume. Can you imagine being killed because of a crooked system that just needs someone guilty? Out of the two and a half million that are incarcerated in our prisons today, how many are innocent? Framed, railroaded, color, mental, you name it. There are thousands upon thousands in our prisons right now that don't deserve to be there. We are guilty of barbaric acts against humanity for profits in this country. It's religious in SA. Soon to come to this country if the right wing evangelicals get their way.

[WDIM]

77. We only give the death penalty to people convicted of murder one.

The Saudis are brutal barbarians no better than the Daesh.

[CJCRANE]

14. No feelgood "Arab Spring" for this teenager.

For some reason that only applies to secular governments.

Absolutist islamist monarchies...not so much.

[oberliner]

24. Our religion is Islam and our constitution is based on the Holy Qu’ran

That's what they say, anyway.

Saudi Arabia is a sovereign state. Our Kingdom is led by our rulers alone, and our rulers are led by Islam alone. Our religion is Islam and our constitution is based on the Holy Qu’ran. Our justice system is based on Sharia law and implemented by our independent judiciary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/11954146/How-Saudi-Arabia-helps-Britain-keep-the-peace.html

[tabasco]

25. The corrupt Saudi regime is an enemy of mankind

Naturally, partners with the criminal Bush cabal.

[SheilaT]

26. Anyone who supports the death penalty

in this country is a bit hypocritical to oppose it in some other country. Yeah, we only execute people who have probably killed someone, as if that makes it okay.

Me, I am completely against the death penalty and I'm fond of pointing out that a surprising number of other countries function surprisingly well without it.

[backscatter712]

30. Saudi Arabia: The Daesh that made it.

Why is the U.S. still BFFs with those barbarians? Oh yeah, oil.

or in some of the few honest words that came out of George W. Bush's mouth, "Money trumps peace."

[B Calm]

35. Saudi Arabia isn't that where the 9/11 terrorists came from?

[Recursion]

57. 15 of the 19, yes

Though I'd add the FBI's caveat that given the fact that passport forging equipment was found, and the lack of consistent record keeping in much of the middle east, the true identities of some of the hijackers may never be fully certain.

But, from what we think we know, 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, 1 from Lebanon, 1 from Egypt, and 2 from UAE.

[Vinca]

43. So it's terrorism when it's ISIS and business as usual when it's the Saudis.

This is horrible.

[kentuck]

44. We still call these murderers our allies?

They are trying to sabotage the war on ISIS, also.

[Recursion]

46. No, we specifically don't; see upthread

The United States Government very specifically does not call Saudi Arabia an "ally".

[edhopper]

48. But we sure sell them

tons of guns.

[Chan790]

50. and buy the oil that keeps the House of Saud in power.

Really, the US keeps Saudi Arabia's corrupt and questionably-terroristic regime upright.

[Recursion]

52. We sell guns to a whole lot of people

We don't give them the favorable terms on those guns that "allies" get.

[rladdi]

51. Where is the free world leaders on this issue. Why don't they reject Saudi Arabia and its execution

The Saudis execute more innocent people then ISIS does and yet there is no outrage from the worlds leaders. Where are the values of these leaders? It is time they stood up to Saudi Arabia and boycotted them in every possible way, like we have with Putin and Russia. Lets put the squeeze on the rich Saudis leaders. We should boycott all travel to Saudi Arabia also. No air travel should be made there. I know the free world says we cannot interject our views into the Saudi laws.

[davidn3600]

54. The front runners of both our political parties support the death penalty

...and so does 2/3rds of the American public.

Our morals aren't much higher.

The only difference is the Saudis chop the heads off while we use drugs.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. No, other differences include the number and quality of death penalty offenses and due process

in adjudicating each case. Killing a teen for attending a protest is in fact different from killing a confessed mass murderer. I oppose all forms of the death penalty, but it can not be denied that the progress away from capital punishment in every nation has involved decreasing the offenses for which the State can take a life. Britain, which now has no death penalty of any kind, used to have over 220 capital offenses such as pickpocket theft, which was capital offense until 1808. By 1965 Britain ended executions for murder. Treason remained on the books as capital crime until 1998.

So I do not think it serves Saudi Arabia to affect that executions for thought crimes are no different than executions of murderers. It is different. Both are wrong, but one contains much more wrong, for one executes for murder, for adultery, for being gay, for writing the wrong thing, for changing religions....even if the kernel is identical, the breadth and magnitude are not identical.
Saudi Arabia needs to get on the progress train. The US is inching up to where Britain was in 65. Saudi Arabia is worse than Britain 1800. It's 2015, all over the world.

[Rex]

60. Yet somehow we will still find a way to buy our oil from them.

We are friends with a country that beheads 19 year olds for going to a protest rally! WTF is wrong with us!?

[Recursion]

62. Not really. We produce more oil than Saudi Arabia does

They're actually #3 right now, after us and Russia.

[Rex]

64. They are our close allies in the region, been that way since we both

fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. We have a special relationship with SA, like we do with Israel.

[Recursion]

65. We do describe our relationship as "special", but it is pointedly not that of "allies"

We have given that sobriquet to Jordan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Bahrain, Israel, Tunisia, Morocco... pretty much most of the region other than S.A.

[Rex]

67. Over and over past and present POTUSes have called them allies of America for decades.

So yes they are our allies according to the President of the United States, take it up with the WH.

[Recursion]

68. Name me a single time a President has called Saudi Arabia an "ally"

Seriously. Go for it.

[Rex]

70. I am sorry that you are wrong. We always refer to SA as our ally in the region.

Not my fault you are ignorant to these events.

"For the past 70 years, the United States has maintained a core national security interest in the security and the stability of our allies in the Gulf region – Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, and Bahrain. We’ve long cooperated on confronting the extraordinary challenges posed by ISIL, al Qaeda, the Assad regime’s war in Syria, and Iran’s destabilizing activities in the region."

"President Obama called His Majesty King Abdullah today as part of regular consultations between our two countries on the range of Middle East issues. The President shared the details of the P5+1’s first step agreement with Iran regarding its nuclear program, reaffirming the importance of Iran following through on its commitments. The two leaders agreed to consult regularly regarding the P5+1’s efforts to negotiate a comprehensive solution that would resolve the international community’s concerns regarding Iran’s nuclear program. President Obama reiterated the firm commitment of the United States to our friends and allies in the Gulf."

"President Obama will travel to the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, the Holy See, and Saudi Arabia from March 24 to March 29 to mobilize the international community — and some of our most important partners in the world — at a time when the United States is dealing with a number of important challenges. The President’s trip highlights the fundamental strength and significance of our alliances and partnerships, and the importance of investing in our allies and building strong and flexible coalitions."

"When you think about our commitments to the region and to Saudi Arabia, that we are committed to defending our friends and allies in the region from external aggression, our agenda puts nonproliferation of weapons of mass destruction high on the list."

[Recursion]

80. Now re-read those and note the absence of the word "ally"

Last edited Fri Dec 18, 2015, 08:55 PM - Edit history (1)

That's a word with legal significance, and we deliberately dont use it for Saudi Arabia

[oberliner]

82. The word "partner" is frequently used

So it is fair to say, while they may not be allies, they are partners with the United States.

[Recursion]

87. True: we frequently describe them as "partners" (nt)

[dumbcat]

83. What about this one?

"For the past 70 years, the United States has maintained a core national security interest in the security and the stability of our allies in the Gulf region – Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, and Bahrain.

It kinda looks like he called Saudi Arabia an ally there.

[Recursion]

88. Good catch, thanks

That was a huge breach of protocol. Is there a date on that quote?

[dumbcat]

89. I dunno the date

I just took it from Rex's post 70 above.

[oberliner]

90. That's from August 2015

Countering Iran: How the U.S. and Our Allies Will Confront Iran’s Destabilizing Activities

https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015/08/19/countering-iran-how-us-and-our-allies-will-confront-irans-destabilizing-activities

Several paragraphs in.

[Rex]

93. Nonsense.

Carry on with the pretend breach.

[Rex]

92. I found a lot but only had time to put out a few, so the other poster can continue

to deny the facts like they always do with my posts...I don't care anymore.

[Coventina]

69. I'm trashing this thread because it makes me so angry I would get banned

for saying what I really want to say.

[WDIM]

76. $audis=Isil=Daesh

Instead of exporting our oil we should ban importing Saudi oil.