Cultural Bundling

[aksptth]

I read about a thought in an LA Times Opinion piece using a term called Cultural Bundling and how it gets in the way of meaningful discussions about controversial issues in American society.

The opinion piece was about the gun debate, but please I don't bring this up to talk about guns here. I want to discuss the concept of Cultural Bundling. The author posits how when we discuss controversial issues it tends to devolve down to an attack on an entire cultural point of view. I think there is a lot of merit in the concept and it explains why we can't come together -- even with a difference of opinion in one specific subject -- and talk about the issue at hand without disrespecting each other's culture. Even with differences in cultural norms, we still share 80% (pulling number out of my ass) of our goals for the future and our country.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1213-white-productive-gun-debate-20151213-story.html

The author put it this way in the gun debate and how to move forward with a meaningful discussion:

First, we could stop culture-bundling. We culture-bundle when we use one political issue as shorthand for a big group of cultural and social values. Our unproductive talk about guns is rife with this. Gun control advocates don't just attack support for guns; they attack conservative, Republican, rural and religious values. Second Amendment advocates don't just attack gun control advocates; they attack liberal, Democratic, urban and secular values. The gun control argument gets portrayed as the struggle against Bible-thumping, gay-bashing, NASCAR-watching hicks, and the gun rights argument gets portrayed as a struggle against godless, elitist, kale-chewing socialists.

Again, please no gun talk. I really like the "Cultural Bundling" concept though and would like to talk through that idea. Do we saddle our Blue State / Red State divide with all this extraneous baggage and that's why we can no longer have a civil discourse in America today?

[Igel]

1. It's how we think.

All good or all bad. For example--if a bank teller is found to have given a small gift to charity, the bank teller is seen to be more competent and trustworthy than one who hasn't. A doctor in an office with neat landscaping out front and a well-kept office is more likely to be viewed as superior, and it takes pretty solid evidence to overturn this kind of "halo."

It works negatively, too. If a Trump supporter says something negative, it's a reflection on Trump. And if that small gift to charity is given to an "evil" charity or the landscaping is glorious in the middle of a drought with water-use restrictions ...

Group boundaries come into play. If a Sanders supporter says something negative, obviously it can't reflect on him. Guilt by association is probative for those we hate, unconscionable when applied to our group. In a word, your group always wears a "good guy" hat while the other group has the "Darth Vader" mask.


Stereotyping is what we used to call "cultural bundling", but that's not novel. Like "life hacks" are trendy, but "household hints" are so passe. Rename something and say that a rose by any other name smells like a stinking rose, a completely different kind of thing. (This works on people who are surface-level deep thinkers on a good day.)


It's also how we argue. If you're not winning your argument--or, worse, are being outclassed and outgunned--shift the terms of the debate. Shift definitions, then shift what the argument is about. Argumentation isn't there for logic, it's there for winning. Logic is the tool, a malleable malleus ('hammer') in the hands of maleficarum. If you can't win the debate over assault weapons, shift it to murder, cultural values, and in the end say that the person who's really just saying, "Look, assault weapons are just mean looking, and to ban them is to ban an aesthetic" actually is a white supremacist fascist who shoots babies and women for fun on weekends to get juiced for their economic oppression superior 3rd-world cultures.

Of course, there's no arguing with that last group, to dialog with them is below the level of human dignity. Having declared superiority at every level, there's nothing left to debate so you walk away confident in your upcoming apotheosis.

Ultimately, it goes back to identifying with a community that both needs protection and provides protection, reinforced by confirmation bias and other techniques to ensure quick and easy (human, in other words) thinking. Whatever the clever buzz word nouveau may be.

[aksptth]

2. Malleable malleus in the hands of maleficarum

"Malleable malleus in the hands of maleficarum" I have to process that one...

So your saying that cultural bundling is a new fancy name for run-of-the-mill stereotyping. I agree to a degree. I get a feeling that cultural bundling is a more pervasive concept. To say that purple people all pick their noses is a stereotype. To say that purple people live in a Cursed Land, munch on berries, treat women badly, wear stupid hats, play with their poop, and worship trees is a bit more extensive than mere stereotyping.

[virginia mountainman]

3. Look at how millions and millions of peaceful..

Gun owners, whom never will harm anyone are treated when a nut case goes on a rampage..


It is a problem, a big one. All this extra baggage, has political consequences. All this retreat builds up to a point, that the other side is no longer even able to have a dialogue.

I mean think about it this way..

I am a resident, of southern appalachia, and a lifelong democrat, who has a long history (spanning almost 4 decades) of union organizing, meeting with, 1 on 1, and helping getting Democrats elected is now viewed by some in here as an extreme enemy, simply because (A) I am Southerner (B) resident of Appalachia (D) I support gun rights, it does not matter that I support practically all of the rest of the ideals, I have had very bad things said to me from "fellow" democrats because of this. Funny thing is, many of those are nobody's in our party, so I just chalk it up to them being one of the "useful idiots" that we can use to pull a lever on the day.

My views are the same now as they always have been, it was "some" people in our parties view has changed. For a while atleast, we are still a big tent. But those on the top better get a grip on this "cultural" BS, because an election is coming up. We have lost the South and Appalachia largely as a result of "Why would I vote for you? You look down at us."

As a party we better get a grip with this recent phenomena, or we will become a regional party.

[LanternWaste]

4. Treated almost as badly as the millions of peaceful people who don't own

Treated almost as badly as the millions of peaceful people who don't own guns and criticize a shooting.

[aksptth]

5. Please no "g" talk

I want to talk about Cultural Bundling. If it devolves into a gun discussion the thread will get locked and I might get banned.

Mountainman is expressive about the very point I bring up. It used to be both parties had a much wider tent. More so the Republicans to my mind, but both parties have been furiously involved in purity purges and it can't be a good thing.

I know I grew up in a Western Pennsylvania Steel Town and we were all Democrats. We were all Union too. I look at the Democratic Party today and I know without a doubt many of my neighbors would feel disrespected by the Democratic Party today.

I think the Cultural Bundling also condenses the field of acceptable attitudes. If you don't match pretty closely with prevailing attitudes you are pretty much rejected across the board. I think both parties have been greatly expanding the number of Independents who don't fit so neatly into Party dogma. At some point all those Independents are going to coalesce around something -- which may not be such a bad thing overall but might be bad for the established Parties.

[whatthehey]

6. It's a useful shorthand but like all shorthands somewhat limiting

I am for example vehemently secular, very much non-homophobic, probably elitist and not disinclined to socialism, but am fine with individual RKBA. I'm not alone, and not unacquainted with deeply religious lefties, rural lefties, even lefty NASCAR fans for some unearthly reason. I'm also several things that are nigh unforgivable here, including fat, suburban, and a yellow dog Democrat.

Now it's true if I were looking for political conviviality I would be less likely to go to a gun show (I've never been to one anyway), a Baptist church, a NASCAR race or a country concert at a rural county fair, but those are probabilities not bundles really, and I have no doubt I could find political sympathy at a large enough example of any of them.

I disagree then that attacks against homophobia are attacks against rural voters for example. There is no causal connection. Being rural doesn't make you homophobic, it's just more likely for a number of unrelated issues. It MIGHT be an attack against religious voters of particularly doctrinaire homophobic denominations however because there is a causal connection there. Being an evangelical Southern Baptist in full agreement with their stated dogma does indeed make you homophobic.

Essentially that's the question to me in validity of this. Does bundle component A make you have attribute B or is it just shared space on a Venn diagram?

[aksptth]

7. Heh, lefty flyover country!

Just the other day I was shocked beyond belief. My home is Washington DC but I am in NE Texas for business for a few months. I wasn't expecting good things overall but decided to lay low and just get it done. I traveled to Southern Oklahoma to see some sights in the middle of nowhere. I mean, this place makes bumfuck boonies look populated. I see a car whizzing by me on a Country road sporting a "Feel the Bern" sticker. My jaw dropped!

Another observation I had was that these folks talk a good game buuutttt... being gay I notice such things. The men around here have a goodly amount of MSM sex, but if you dare call it "gay" they'll beat the crap outta you. They do their nasty, hop in the pickup and drive back home to the wife and kids. And they are quite comfortable in Church come Sunday too. Call me confused....

[smirkymonkey]

8. Interesting concept.

K&R!