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Gun nuts at "bearingarms.com" faults Tamir Rice for his own death. (Original Post) Dawson Leery Dec 2015 OP
That's typical of almost every website related to gunz. There's a link between racism and gunz. Hoyt Dec 2015 #1
Wow! Let's talk about Gunz... er... racism in GD! Something new! Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #2
True. We should by all means minimize the device used to kill Tamir LanternWaste Dec 2015 #3
Please see #7. Will you back such a change? If not, why not? nt Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #8
Typical response from gungeoneers. As long as you got your gunz, who cares who gets killed, shot, Hoyt Dec 2015 #4
Please inform the Hosts of GD you wanna open the forum up to Gunz... Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #7
Lol, not sure you would be fair! Nt Logical Dec 2015 #17
?? Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #36
Any excuse, however ghoulish, to indulge in hate and bigotry. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #5
Gratifying to see so many in the comment section calling bullshit, though. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #6
But... But... The Narrative®! Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #9
Oh, right...I forgot! Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #10
Maybe you should figure out why you give off that impression, because you do. I'm not trying to MillennialDem Dec 2015 #12
Me, personally? Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #13
Not you personally. Why do you think that is? And maybe you should clean house if you MillennialDem Dec 2015 #15
What do you mean by 'clean house'? Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #19
Do everything you can to purge (not literally) those members from your movement MillennialDem Dec 2015 #23
My movement? Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #28
Right after you guys purge the gun banner types from your own movement. beevul Dec 2015 #31
A gun banner is not an extremist. MillennialDem Dec 2015 #33
You must be new to gun threads. Real new. Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #38
Gun ban proponents are the textbook definition of extremists. beevul Dec 2015 #42
"A gun banner is not an extremist." GGJohn Dec 2015 #44
Collective guilt is a RW value, not a progressive one hack89 Dec 2015 #39
Being a strong pro gun activist is a choice, not the same as race or sexual orientation. And we do MillennialDem Dec 2015 #41
I am not an activist. I am merely a gun owner. hack89 Dec 2015 #43
Why do some do that? I have no idea. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #29
A 12 year old is legal to open carry under Ohio law? GGJohn Dec 2015 #11
The cop's claim that they did not know or believe Tamir was a child makes that moot etherealtruth Dec 2015 #25
You nailed it gwheezie Dec 2015 #51
Almost everyone involved, included Tamir... TipTok Dec 2015 #14
No need for the kid's decision to be a fatal one, though. nomorenomore08 Dec 2015 #16
It's just really unfortunate... TipTok Dec 2015 #18
Tamir was a 12 year old kid, how the fuck did he make a bad decision ? JI7 Dec 2015 #21
A couple of things... TipTok Dec 2015 #32
That was a friend's bb-gun that had been lent to him that day. haele Dec 2015 #34
"who had not done anything that carried penalty under the law" TipTok Dec 2015 #49
12-year-olds with a toy gun don't deserve second chances MrScorpio Dec 2015 #22
Gun nuts tend to think that way Bettie Dec 2015 #20
I don't think an underage person can open carry in Ohio. Waldorf Dec 2015 #24
The cops claim that they did not know or believe Tamir was a kid etherealtruth Dec 2015 #26
Twice in this discussion so far My Good Babushka Dec 2015 #27
One would have to ask what is legal open carry? ileus Dec 2015 #37
I"m one of those that brought that up and in no way did I use it as an excuse. eom. GGJohn Dec 2015 #45
Open carry may be legal, but brandishing isn't XemaSab Dec 2015 #30
Not that it would mean much to some in this thread, but good point. Eleanors38 Dec 2015 #40
There was no "brandishing" in that video. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #47
Did you watch the video I posted? XemaSab Dec 2015 #50
Yes, eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #52
You're surprised?? Blue_Tires Dec 2015 #35
Their white supremacy is showing. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #46
The kid should have been more law-abiding. Like Cliven Bundy and his supporters. Rec. no text. Mc Mike Dec 2015 #48
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
1. That's typical of almost every website related to gunz. There's a link between racism and gunz.
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 04:29 PM
Dec 2015

When these kinds of tragedies occur, one can blame the police and the gun "enthusiasts," even those who characterize themselves as "responsible."

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
3. True. We should by all means minimize the device used to kill Tamir
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 04:36 PM
Dec 2015

True. We should by all means minimize both the device used to kill Tamir and his color as a probable factor into his death, else we may illustrate both in a light not flattering to the NRA.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
4. Typical response from gungeoneers. As long as you got your gunz, who cares who gets killed, shot,
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 04:38 PM
Dec 2015

abused, intimidated, etc.

If you are tired of reading about guns, encourage your friends to denounce them and get rid of all but one or two AT HOME for hunting and maybe self-defense. Also, change your user name to something like "Eleanorwaswrongaboutgunz."

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
7. Please inform the Hosts of GD you wanna open the forum up to Gunz...
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 04:54 PM
Dec 2015

full-time. You can post, I can post.

Sound good? I'll back the necessary changes in the -- ahem -- SOP.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
36. ??
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 02:51 PM
Dec 2015

How could I be otherwise? The tap on Gunz is opened and closed in a very mysterious manner; generally open. But rules is rules and I try to follow them, however murky and fogged in. There are many OPs now posted in the Gungeon by pro-2A folks which could be more fully discussed in GD, and from what can tell, at least some of the banners would like that too, given the volume and consistency with which they wind up here. Perhaps there is an off-the-books manner in which the alleged Gunz "exception" is used here which, you know, might give the antis a leg up on posting policy. Don't want to get meta, but don't you think the current standard re Gunz is dead as a dock side mullet?

What do you think about right now? Is the Gunz "exception" non-applicable? And why is that? So mysterioso.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
6. Gratifying to see so many in the comment section calling bullshit, though.
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 04:50 PM
Dec 2015

More than are saying the cops did nothing wrong, in fact...

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
10. Oh, right...I forgot!
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 05:01 PM
Dec 2015

We're all horrible, racist neanderthals just dying to go "Dirty Harry" on someone.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
12. Maybe you should figure out why you give off that impression, because you do. I'm not trying to
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 06:48 PM
Dec 2015

be snarky, but it absolutely seems like that to me.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
13. Me, personally?
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 12:42 AM
Dec 2015

If so, I'm genuinely surprised. Never had anything like that said to me, well...ever (save for simpletons who say that sort of thing about all gun owners...and their opinions are valueless to me).

If, however, you were speaking on broader terms, I certainly agree that there's a segment of the gun owning population (remember: there are 80 million or so of us) that's like that. They're an embarrassment, but they loom large. Big mouths of whatever persuasion usually do.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
15. Not you personally. Why do you think that is? And maybe you should clean house if you
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 12:52 AM
Dec 2015

feel they're an embarrassment or drop being part of the embarrassment.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
31. Right after you guys purge the gun banner types from your own movement.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 11:43 AM
Dec 2015

Or are some extremists more equal than other extremists?

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
38. You must be new to gun threads. Real new.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 03:04 PM
Dec 2015


Shall we start with male genitalia and why it is acceptable to use in a sexist manner on DU?
 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
42. Gun ban proponents are the textbook definition of extremists.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 03:33 PM
Dec 2015
A gun banner is not an extremist.


Gun ban proponents are the textbook definition of extremists. That's not an opinion, that's an empirical fact.

In fact, gun banners make up the single loudest extremist group in the gun debate.


You can deny it, but that wont make the truth stop hurting.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
39. Collective guilt is a RW value, not a progressive one
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 03:05 PM
Dec 2015

we don't blame all Muslims for terrorism, we don't blame all blacks for gang violence.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
41. Being a strong pro gun activist is a choice, not the same as race or sexual orientation. And we do
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 03:17 PM
Dec 2015

tell muslims they need to take care of their own countries / problems. Remember saying we shouldn't go into Iraq?

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
29. Why do some do that? I have no idea.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 11:36 AM
Dec 2015

I'm not a psychologist, so I really can't say.

As for cleaning house, well...I reject that notion just like I reject the notion of all Muslims having a similar responsibility for dealing with that group's nasty outliers. Or all blacks having some special responsibility to deal with young black men committing crimes at a disproportionate rate. And so forth... Collective guilt is an ethically indefensible notion.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
11. A 12 year old is legal to open carry under Ohio law?
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 06:40 PM
Dec 2015

Since when did it become legal for a juvenile to open carry a firearm?

That said, that cop committed a murder when he shot Tamir.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
25. The cop's claim that they did not know or believe Tamir was a child makes that moot
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 08:19 AM
Dec 2015

.... but, this isn't about "guns" .... this is about the disregard so many members of law enforcement have for the lives of PoC (especially black people)

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
16. No need for the kid's decision to be a fatal one, though.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 12:55 AM
Dec 2015

If you watch the video, he wasn't given so much as 3 seconds to "surrender."

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
18. It's just really unfortunate...
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 01:36 AM
Dec 2015

... And if anyone from Tamir to the officers to the dispatch had made a differenct choice, things could have been different.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
32. A couple of things...
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 11:52 AM
Dec 2015

Pointing it at folks in the park (which resulted in the original call)

Modifying it to the point / carrying it in such a manner where it couldn't be immediately identified as a toy...



Like I said, lots of bad decisions all around...

haele

(12,581 posts)
34. That was a friend's bb-gun that had been lent to him that day.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 01:31 PM
Dec 2015

No one ever has told me if the friend had picked at the orange tip to remove it or if Tamir had. Kids - and a 12 year old is still a kid! - modify their toys like that all the time, especially if they think a part that otherwise does nothing looks lame on their toy.
You're still blaming the kid for 1) being 12 years old and black, 2) with a toy gun, 3) out in public on a playground by himself, where he's easy prey.

Because sure as hell, if he had not been by himself, the police would have been a lot more cautious approaching him, and he probably would have been given a warning for playing with a bb-gun, instead of being rolled up on and shot before he had a chance to react to anything.

It's rather like the "situational liability/contributing factor" insurance assessment of injured parties after the fact.
While it's both a moral and criminal wrong to assault or rob someone, and the criminal is 100% at fault, when it comes to insurance companies, not being aware of your situation or failure to take reasonable protective is a contributing factor when looking at the liability and determining "fault" for restitution determination in an insurance settlement. If your home gets robbed and a house-guest gets injured in the process, they will look at what you did to "burglar proof" your home and everything that could have been done to avoid the injury as part of their assessment on how much they are going to pay you and cover the medical bills of person being injured.
In other words, the victim's situational liability becomes a contributing factor in the pay-out for the situation.

Unfortunately, situational liability been used in courts to mitigate the "fault" of the person doing the crime, especially when the criminal comes from a class of defendants that have the resources to pay for protection from liability - like corporations, wealth, or public service.

Finding anything to blame Tamir Rice, who had not done anything that carried penalty under the law, for his own death is attempting to create a contributing factor for his murder to be his "responsibility", a tactic to lessen the accountability on the police - y'know, the cowards who drove up at high speed and fatally shot him within two seconds of swinging open a patrol car door because they saw a black youth sitting alone in a park, and "knew" he had to be a criminal thug that was a drag on society.

Might as well say that because he was playing with a bb-gun missing it's orange tip now, that is a sure indicator that in just two years, he'd have been a gun-toting gang-banger shooting up a neighborhood in a turf war, randomly killing toddlers and school kids - so it's just better to shoot him now, while he's just a lil'shorty, before he turns into a crack-smoking, heroin-dealing cold blooded thug.


If this sounds a bit hyperbolic, it's because that stereotype ends up being the underlying reasoning for most people I've discussed this with who try to say "why didn't his parents teach him how to act in public", or "he shouldn't have been on the playground with a toy gun that looked real" or "the police had a right to be in fear of their lives, how did they know he wasn't in a gang and going to shoot them..."

I have found that behind the argument that Tamir Rice bears any responsibility for the police shooting him always goes back to a race-based assumption. It's always been the "feeling" that young black men are at heart gang-bangers, no matter if they stay in the 'hood, or if they go to Harvard. And there's a certain type of law-and-order personality (not just white) that believes that young black men (and women) need to be neutered; if they aren't under strict social control, the color of their skin indicates that their true nature , which is to run wild and rampant, and they will infect good, hardworking (white) kids with their drugs and parties and casual, lazy "other-ness".
And it's very difficult to convince these people that they're fearful, ridiculously judgmental reactionaries.

Haele

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
49. "who had not done anything that carried penalty under the law"
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 07:23 PM
Dec 2015

I'm haven't looked into it that deeply but didn't the original 911 call happen because he was pointing that realistic looking weapon / toy at folks?

That is a criminal act...

As for all the race stuff, you are the one bringing that into it. None of my points relate to his race in any way whatsoever.

I can't speak to what he would have become in the years following. I can only speak about what happened that day.

I will say that my kids know that guns of any kind are never ever to be pointed at anyone.

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
20. Gun nuts tend to think that way
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 01:49 AM
Dec 2015

anyone who dies at the end of a gun is actually responsible for their own death, because a "responsible gun owner" (which they all are, don'cha know) totally needed killing.

Plus, who thinks open carry is for black people?

GAH. This whole thing makes me so angry and it also makes me feel so helpless. People are dying and our justice system does nothing except try to make the victims guilty of their own deaths.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
26. The cops claim that they did not know or believe Tamir was a kid
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 08:22 AM
Dec 2015

.... so (according to them), that would be an irrelevant point.

this is solely about deeply ingrained systemic racism in policing .... not about guns

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
27. Twice in this discussion so far
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 08:57 AM
Dec 2015

it has been brought up that it's not legal for a juvenile to open carry. If they knew he was a juvenile that just makes it even worse! I don't know why that's being brought up as an excuse. It's legal to open carry unless you are a minor, and then you deserve to be shot down in cold blood? This represents what American justice thinks of the rights and protections for a child? It's sickening.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
37. One would have to ask what is legal open carry?
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 03:00 PM
Dec 2015

It may not be what you think.



The cops rolled up on this kid and in 2 seconds shot him down...


 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
40. Not that it would mean much to some in this thread, but good point.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 03:11 PM
Dec 2015

Still, I think the officer(s) was negligent in rushing up to shoot the kid without better ascertaining what was going on. Police work is dangerous, but it doesn't give one license to shoot anyone within seconds without seeing what was going on.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
47. There was no "brandishing" in that video.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 04:06 PM
Dec 2015

I see a kid sitting at a picnic table leaving it for five minutes, returning, then two cops show up and blow his ass away for no damned reason at other other than the fact that the kid was black.

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