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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Thu May 31, 2012, 02:39 PM May 2012

There are two traffic courts. Try to be in the one for rich people.

Last edited Thu May 31, 2012, 06:35 PM - Edit history (11)

I have only hired a lawyer once and it forever changed my understanding of why the rich get away with everything.

I don’t drink, but I often hang out in bars. I left a favorite watering-hole at closing time (2 AM) and began my drive home. A cop lurking in the parking lot followed me, expecting a DWI arrest. He followed me for miles, and I wondered if he was a cop, but I’m not a very wild driver anyway. No biggie.

As I near my home the speed limit (on a four-lane divided highway) abruptly drops from 45 to 25. My turn is a left at the very first light after the speed limit change. I drive it every day. Where the speed limit changes I take my foot off the gas and coast into the left-turn lane and stop. (The light is usually red)

This cop didn’t want to waste his five mile pursuit so he pulled me over. (I should mention that my car was a 20-year old piece of crap and that the cops here target immigrants in a big way after dark. Having a shitty car is reasonable cause to these cowboys. Had I been driving a new SUV I doubt I would have been pulled over... or followed in the first place.)

Knowing that I was being pulled over for frequenting a bar as a non-drinker and driving a crummy car in a pricey suburb I was irritated. The cop said I was doing 45 in a 25. Probably true for about 100 feet where the limit changes, but I had thought the guy might be a cop and had been driving pretty slowly the whole damn way. I pointed out that he was being ridiculous (Don’t do that!) in giving a bogus ticket to me because he was disappointed I wasn’t drunk, and that it’s a fine state of affairs when the cops are rooting for the citizens to be drunk. And I told him to give me the damn ticket and I'd mail it in and forget our lovely time together. So he took advantage of the fact that 20 miles over the speed limit can be classified as reckless driving and wrote me a ticket for reckless driving and said with satisfaction that I would have to show up in court for that charge. No mailing in the fine for reckless driving, which is a criminal misdemeanor, not a regular traffic infraction.

So I was charged with something for which I could lose my license and actually spend up to a year in jail! (Unlikely, but within the sentencing range for reckless driving.)

I hired a lawyer. I had never had a lawyer before and was naively ready for some real Perry Mason action. In my state a non-radar speeding stop requires 1/4 mile of "pacing" at speed. My turn was less than 1/4 mile from the 25 MPH sign. Heck, I was at 0 MPH parked at a red light less than a quarter mile inside the low speed zone so I couldn't have sped for a quarter mile. Quite the jail-house lawyer, I was. I went in with my charts of the incident, my intricate color maps accurate to ten feet, snapshots of the signs and surroundings and citations of state law. My lawyer looked at my stack of papers with open bemusement and told me that the law and facts would be irrelevant to my case, and to just be sure to show up for court, and bring my checkbook.

I had been in traffic court a few times in my youth, though not for at least a decade, and thought I knew the drill. But I only knew the poor-people drill. The judge asked who had a lawyer to raise her hand and moved all of us to the end of the docket and began processing the non-lawyer folks. 100% conviction rate. They offered whatever explanations they could and the judge laughed at them. I expected that, having been there before. (Granted, a few earned that derision. The best was a woman who said she couldn’t have been going 70 MPH because she had just gotten off work and was too tired to be going 70 MPH. I could only picture the Flintstones.)

After the riff-raff (almost all minorities or white teenagers) were duly fined and out of the courtroom the real fun began. The judge called a recess and all the lawyers formed a line outside a little room where the prosecutor sat. Each lawyer went in and was handed whatever reduction of charges the prosecutor thought a lawyer deserved for being a lawyer.

My lawyer was a former prosecutor. My prosecutor was a former defense attorney. You put in some years on the prosecutor side to makes courthouse contacts. Then you return to the defense side to make some money. When your contacts get stale you return to prosecuting… A revolving door of cronies. Since I was wearing a suit it was assumed I was a lawyer and I got to watch the whole process. At no point was any material aspect of the incident discussed. Never. It was only the charge, the person’s prior history, and whatever history the prosecutor had with the defense attorney. Not one single person was acquitted. Not one single person was convicted of the crime he was charged with. Everyone got a reduced charge with they understanding they would plead guilty to it. (And that the police report would be the only evidence.)

Since I was charged with a misdemeanor (an actual crime) mine took special handling. My lawyer came up and said that the prosecutor was willing to reduce the charge in exchange for a big fine. I was already paying a bigger fine (by being forced to hire a lawyer) so the fine they wanted was a relative bargain.

Then I was told that my plea bargain had to be approved by the cop. This was a direct violation of all letter and spirit of the law. In fact, it is actually printed in big letters on the ticket that the cop plays no role in adjudicating your case except as a witness. But that was the deal.

The moment I heard that I zipped out of the courtroom so I wouldn’t be there when they talked to the cop. Wouldn’t want him remembering the incident from seeing my face. My lawyer came out and said it was approved by the cop, and the judge started the session for people with lawyers.

And I pleaded guilty to… speeding. Going 45 in a 25. Exactly the action I was charged with, but as a speeding ticket rather than a criminal reckless driving charge. (Which was the outcome I cared about.)

If you hire a lawyer for traffic court you will probably not be convicted of the offense you are charged with. Nor will you be acquitted. And the law will never be mentioned by anyone. It has no bearing on the process!

(re: not being convicted of what you're charged with. I know a guy who was busted for smoking a joint. The joint was the only pot he had on him. I told him a lawyer might make a big difference and he hired one. They gave him a break, reducing it to possession of drug paraphernalia for the rolling paper around the pot. But rolling papers are completely legal here and sold at 7-11 and CVS! But it was a lesser charge and my friend was glad to get it.)

Anyway, at the small-court level the legal profession looks favorably on hiring a lawyer and the prosecutor will reward you for having done so, because he will be back in the defense side of the racket in a year or two.

They just want you to "play ball" with the system.

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
There are two traffic courts. Try to be in the one for rich people. (Original Post) cthulu2016 May 2012 OP
I will remember this the next time a lawyer tells me not to bother hiring him for a citation. n/t Ian David May 2012 #1
It depends on the relative worth of the outcomes cthulu2016 May 2012 #2
Or you can try showing up in court early, and asking the assistant DA for a reduced charge yardwork May 2012 #4
it's all very location specific... belcffub May 2012 #3
your account reminds me of those stupid toddler beauty pageants. the girls that win have Liberal_in_LA May 2012 #5
I have always felt the American legal system was form of religion MicaelS May 2012 #6
I'm not sure if it ever existed, but we have lost any semblance of a justice system. n/t Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #7
I got hit with 26mph over the speed limit Aerows May 2012 #8
You should have asked for a jury trial. B Calm May 2012 #9
My punishment would have been much greater cthulu2016 May 2012 #10
The Judge would have dropped the charge B Calm May 2012 #18
And this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury bupkus May 2012 #11
Wow, your lawyer sucked. obxhead May 2012 #12
The judge was a former cop cthulu2016 May 2012 #19
Thanks for sharing -- a good learning experience Auggie May 2012 #13
Reminds Me Bigredhunk May 2012 #14
If you learned anything, it is B Calm May 2012 #21
In New York, nearly all offenses like this are pled down to non-moving violations, because... eggplant May 2012 #15
Thanks for sharing. jp11 May 2012 #16
2 Questions JVS May 2012 #17
Answers cthulu2016 May 2012 #20
I've been told that if you request discovery on something like that... YellowRubberDuckie May 2012 #22

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
2. It depends on the relative worth of the outcomes
Thu May 31, 2012, 03:06 PM
May 2012

A person with a clean driving record charged with a simple traffic offense (like speeding) is going to pay the fine no matter what.

But if you want to pay to have less points on your license you can pony up one or two thousand dollars that have 15 miles over the speed limit changed to 9 miles over. Or have 10 miles over the speed limit changed to "failure to obey a sign," meaning the speed limit sign (!!!)

For most folks, mailing in the ticket with the payment is best.

But if circumstances make a lesser charge worth a lot of money to you, hire a lawyer.

yardwork

(61,608 posts)
4. Or you can try showing up in court early, and asking the assistant DA for a reduced charge
Thu May 31, 2012, 03:23 PM
May 2012

and then asking the judge for a "prayer for judgement continued." This only works if you have a truly clean record. I did it once for a speeding ticket. The ADA knocked down the number of miles over the speed limit I was charged with driving, and the judge agreed to give me a prayer for judgement continued, which meant that I had to pay the fine but the ticket didn't appear on my record, didn't affect my insurance, and was wiped out if I had no further tickets for five years. If I got a ticket in that time frame, they had the right to reinstate the original charge.

I did not hire a lawyer. I simply dressed professionally and showed up in court a little early on my court date.

belcffub

(595 posts)
3. it's all very location specific...
Thu May 31, 2012, 03:16 PM
May 2012

In most of NY everything gets turned into parking tickets and driving school... get a lawyer and you can skip driving school... driving school is 4-6 hours if I remember it right of lecturing about how bad a driver you are...

the reason it is that way here is parking ticket money stays local... moving violations go to the state... so to make sure the state got their cut surcharges have been added...

 

Liberal_in_LA

(44,397 posts)
5. your account reminds me of those stupid toddler beauty pageants. the girls that win have
Thu May 31, 2012, 03:26 PM
May 2012

dresses made by professionals in the industry, makeup and lessons by professionals in that industry.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
6. I have always felt the American legal system was form of religion
Thu May 31, 2012, 03:30 PM
May 2012

Where the judges and lawyers were the clergy and they manipulated things for their own benefit, at the expense of us lay folks. Let's face it, if the law were simple enough that the ordinary person could understand it, there would no need for the legal priesthood to interpret THE LAW, and they would all have to find other work.

Personally I have always felt judges and layers made things as difficult as possible.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
8. I got hit with 26mph over the speed limit
Thu May 31, 2012, 03:32 PM
May 2012

because I was in a construction zone, and I didn't really notice because it was 5:45am and I was tired as hell. I had to go to court and do the whole rigmarole and got it reduced to 17 mph over the speed limit, and no reckless driving charges. I didn't need a lawyer, I just had to show up.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
10. My punishment would have been much greater
Thu May 31, 2012, 04:36 PM
May 2012

I would have been effectively fined ten times more (in legal fees) in order to possibly be acquitted.

Pleading guilty to things you didn't do is often better than the alternative. A fun wrinkle of the legal system.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
18. The Judge would have dropped the charge
Thu May 31, 2012, 06:03 PM
May 2012

instead of wasting time and taxpayers money on a jury trial. If it had of went to trial, the jury would have been in your favor.

 

bupkus

(1,981 posts)
11. And this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:22 PM
May 2012

Is an allegory detailing precisely how and why this nation is so fucked up.

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
12. Wow, your lawyer sucked.
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:25 PM
May 2012

I can't believe he/she couldn't get it dropped by 1 mph to save you points etc.

Basically your lawyer didn't do a fucking thing except rob you. Had you defended yourself (provided your driving record is fairly clean) you would have gotten the same damn thing.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
19. The judge was a former cop
Thu May 31, 2012, 06:11 PM
May 2012

Reckless driving 20 miles over speed limit is a subjective call the citing policeman makes.

And believe me, nobody representing themselves gets anything but the max here. Having seen a few iterations of the court session for people without lawyers, the judges resent them.

That same day I saw the same judge uphold a moving violation against a driver (some vague "disorderly driving" type catch-all ticket) because a passenger in his back seat flipped off a cop. Seriously.

We are not talking about a local system where what should happen has much meaning.

My lawyer didn't "do" anything except show up and know the prosecutor, but I was not convicted of a class 1 misdemeanor and perhaps losing my license for a year. I don't give a damn about the speeding ticket one way or another. The point was to avoid conviction for a real crime.

And that was accomplished.

Could I have accomplished that on my own? Maybe so. I don't know. (I do know that my personal experiences with pleading my case to authority have not always been optimal.)

The system is legal indirect bribery through certified intermediaries, hence my complaints, but if that is the system (as it sure appears to be in my county!) then one would be a fool to not get the intermediary. (In a case where the downside of conviction is intolerable.)

Auggie

(31,169 posts)
13. Thanks for sharing -- a good learning experience
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:31 PM
May 2012

I think you did great -- reduced your charge.

Something a lawyer pointed out to me ... municipalities need driving infractions to help pay their bills. You paid less, but you still paid. The court wasn't going to let you off the hook no matter what.

My city installed three controversial red light cameras under the guise of reducing accidents, which they do. But they also net a ton of cash -- hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. The fines here start at $435.00 for running a red light.

Bigredhunk

(1,349 posts)
14. Reminds Me
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:33 PM
May 2012

When I was just starting out in college, I had an accident. It was a two lane road at a four-way intersection. I was turning left. The oncoming driver was also turning left (turn signal). I began to turn, and the other driver didn't slow down to turn. He just plowed into me. I was a little shaken when talking to the cop. Like an idiot, I blurted out, "I guess it was my fault." Little did I know how incriminating those words would be.

So the other driver (VERY old guy) shows up in court with his lawyer (as I'm contesting the charges). His lawyer has me on the stand, and I'm telling everything the way it went down. Then his lawyer gets him up on the stand. The old guy said that he was turning left. His lawyer had to correct him and say, "You mean you were going straight." The old guy continues to get the story wrong (probably in some stage of dementia), and the lawyer keeps correcting him. The cop gets up there and repeats what I said ("guess it was my fault&quot . Case closed. Didn't matter that I was coherent and the other driver couldn't tell you his azz from his elbow. The fact that he had legal representation, and the fact that I blurted out something stupid after the accident was all they needed. My insurance rates skyrocketed. The old guy (whom I later found out had a terrible driving record due to things like this) walks free.

eggplant

(3,911 posts)
15. In New York, nearly all offenses like this are pled down to non-moving violations, because...
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:36 PM
May 2012

...case are heard in the local court where the incident occurred. For a moving violation (a state law violation), the local municipality splits the fine with the state. For a non-moving violation (a local law violation), the local municipality keeps all of it. The standard plea is to "parking on the pavement", with some huge-ass fine, but no points on your license. In the end, it is much cheaper than the points, plus a hit on your insurance, so everyone goes along with it.

If you are dressed nice, and say sir or maam to the judge, you can get this opportunity without the benefit of a lawyer.

jp11

(2,104 posts)
16. Thanks for sharing.
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:40 PM
May 2012

Makes me nauseousness but it isn't like I really expect much to be different, a lawyer means you get a chance at a break no lawyer we own your butt.

Truly disgusting how the law means virtually nothing so much of traffic law is no more than a money making scheme.

JVS

(61,935 posts)
17. 2 Questions
Thu May 31, 2012, 05:55 PM
May 2012

1. Will this appear on your criminal record?

2. Will this appear on your driving record and keep you from getting things like a cab driver's license?

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
20. Answers
Thu May 31, 2012, 06:21 PM
May 2012

No conviction for a crime, so no to #1. And being a misdemeanor it would have been expunged quickly. My real concern was the possibility of the sentence being losing my license for 3 or 6 or 12 months, which was possible.

As to my driving record, all that shows is a speeding ticket. I had a clean record before and since and that speeding ticket has since rolled off my record.

Part of the reason I was so snarky with the cop was that I hadn't had a ticket for 10-15 years. (and none since then , either)

And if my car was not a 20-year-old piece of shit I would not have been pulled over. The cops in my town have a policy of pulling over shitty cars after dark, assuming they are driven by black people or immigrants.

If I had been respectful to the cop I probably would have gotten nothing but a warning, once four things were determined.

1) the car was not stolen
2) I was white
3) I was sober
4) I lived locally

But I didn't feel like playing the game that night. Just in a pissy mood.

YellowRubberDuckie

(19,736 posts)
22. I've been told that if you request discovery on something like that...
Thu May 31, 2012, 07:40 PM
May 2012

...it will be dropped because no one wants to spend the time. Run the court around a bit.

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