Is Obama's Drone Doctrine Counter-Productive? (Is Drone Warfare "The Obama Doctrine"?)

[morningfog]

* * *
Obama's drone doctrine

In reality, I cannot believe that as many officials spoke as freely as they apparently did without being given the presidential green light.

At a time when Republicans want to paint Mr Obama as a ditherer, unwilling to take firm action, it paints him as tough and strong, willing to take hard decisions and kill America's enemies.

But this goes beyond political spin. It is a doctrine of warfare.

We have known for a while that drones are the president's weapon of choice.

* * *

There are plenty of blogs which say that drone attacks are murder, plain and simple. Others argue that they are illegal under international law.

But some say they simply do not have the desired result. Gregory Johnsen of Princeton University is an expert on Yemen and he told me that the rain of drone attacks has strengthened the hand of terrorists there.

"Look at Yemen on Christmas Day 2009, the day the so-called underwear bomber attempted to bring down a flight over Detroit.

"On that day al-Qaeda numbered about 200 to 300 individuals and they controlled no territory. Now today, two-and-a-half years later, despite all the drone strikes al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula has tripled in size, it's now around 1,000 members and it controls significant territory.

"The more the US bombs, the more they grow."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18270490

[Life Long Dem]

1. And how do we not know the invasion in itself of the Middle East caused al-Qaeda to grow?

We don't know. But we do know, Bush created a growing mess of terrorists.

[morningfog]

2. The two aren't mutually exclusive. They are but two tactics of the same policy.

ETA: This particular article deals with the growth from 2009 to present day in Yemen.

[Life Long Dem]

3. I also heard

Drones are a last resort.

"We have known for a while that drones are the president's weapon of choice.". Still a last resort to ground combat troops.

[Life Long Dem]

7. By the way

It takes time to grow. Saying this is from 2009 is meaningless. As it takes time after the two wars Bush started to grow an opposition.

[morningfog]

8. What is meaningful is that from 2009 until 2012 AQ has increased in Yemen. Obama's drone doctrine

is not working.

[Life Long Dem]

9. AQ has been increasing since the Bush administration started the two wars.

Deny that.

[morningfog]

10. What? Bush seriously fucked up, I have never denied that.

This thread is about how Obama's policies in Yemen have NOT reduced AQ's numbers in Yemen. In fact, they have increased.

[Life Long Dem]

12. Still, it's the Middle East.

Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan. And that isn't where the two wars started. But is the Middle East. Of course AQ couldn't organize in Iraq. So they choose nations like Pakistan and Yemen.

[morningfog]

14. Not the same AQs. All different organizations.

[Life Long Dem]

15. Just the AQ that makes Obama look bad

Gotcha.

[morningfog]

16. No. Jesus. I am not going to educate you.

There is no AQ as a global organization. There hasn't been for years. AQ exists only as regional sympathetic organizations.

[Egalitarian Thug]

4. Bush is a moron. Always has been, always will be, so it is expected for him to make the worst

decision possible in any given situation. But President Obama is supposed to be smart and engaged, so how is it that he apparently doesn't get how counter-productive this tactic is?

Every drone strike creates another generation of people that hate us and have nothing left to lose.
K&R

[JackRiddler]

6. You're assuming putting one elected guy on top of Godzilla...

can stop the monster's long march to permanent global war and national security totalitarianism.

There's too much money in the machinery that exists to kill and control, too much incentive to figure out reasons to justify it. This is done by manufacturing enemies and creating instability, and by finding ways ostensibly to make the killing more efficient. Then this has to be justified. If you develop drones that can supposedly kill single bad guys for billions of dollars, then you must use these. It's a whole ecology of wrong.

It can be stopped, but not by adopting the empty "bipartisan" rhetoric that concedes all the false assumptions about national interests and threats, and that honors service to imperialism as though it has anything to do with "defense." It has to be challenged as a whole, with the aim of establishing peace and civilization in the world. "Viable" presidential candidates don't do that, so this is one of the many parts of the game fixed by the system.

[Egalitarian Thug]

18. You're right, but not really. It comes down to will, the President's will in this case. n/t

[JackRiddler]

19. Oh I agree that a principled, strong, public stand by a president could make a difference...

Last edited Fri Jun 1, 2012, 09:46 PM - Edit history (1)

But under the present process no human being who might conceive of strongly challenging MIC dominance and the need for military empire would be able to raise the cash. If such a person did, s/he would be declared not a viable candidate by the corporate media. If one got viable anyway, there would be a mock-assassination by DST (Dean Scream Treatment). If one survived that they would have to deal with an endless primary process largely infected by strategic voting for "moderates" and constant media distractions. If such a candidate were still strong after that, and got past the calls of traitor and communist, the circumstances of this candidate's sudden literal death would seem somewhat suspicious, but hey, we're not conspiracy theorists.

[Egalitarian Thug]

21. That's exactly what I mean. Your supposition, and I agree with it, places reelection above

doing what is right, and therein lies our problem.

We are living a time that requires heroes and all we have are administrators at best, insatiable criminals at worst.

[Life Long Dem]

13. I don't believe it's counter productive

Bush is the one who created this mess and Obama is only trying to control the mess Bush created.

[Egalitarian Thug]

17. Your belief aside, this tactic has never worked except for a very brief time

and it generates both sympathy and more terrorists.

What works is going in and making life better for most of the people.

[cbrer]

5. The Bush/Obama distinction may not be productive

In terms of the effectiveness or legality of drone tactics. Politicization obscures facts, and covers statements and reports with brown stinky matter.

Our policies of aggression and empiricism will have that effect on the citizens of the countries we unleash those attacks on, regardless of party affiliation. And doesn't even begin to address the issue of that expanding technology inside our own borders.

[Fumesucker]

11. I think the result is exactly what's desired..

Otherwise you have to believe our side is made up entirely of cretins..

Airpower used on a civilian population has never won hearts and minds yet.

[JackRiddler]

20. Terrorism isn't supposed to win hearts and minds - it's supposed to break spirits.

We are the monsters we fear.

[morningfog]

22. In Yemen, U.S. airstrikes breed anger, and sympathy for al-Qaeda

Aden, Yemen — Across the vast, rugged terrain of southern Yemen, an escalating campaign of U.S. drone strikes is stirring increasing sympathy for al-Qaeda-linked militants and driving tribesmen to join a network linked to terrorist plots against the United States.

After recent U.S. missile strikes, mostly from unmanned aircraft, the Yemeni government and the United States have reported that the attacks killed only suspected al-Qaeda members. But civilians have also died in the attacks, said tribal leaders, victims’ relatives and human rights activists.

“These attacks are making people say, ‘We believe now that al-Qaeda is on the right side,’ ” said businessman Salim al-Barakani, adding that his two brothers — one a teacher, the other a cellphone repairman — were killed in a U.S. strike in March.

Since January, as many as 21 missile attacks have targeted suspected al-Qaeda operatives in southern Yemen, reflecting a sharp shift in a secret war carried out by the CIA and the Joint Special Operations Command that had focused on Pakistan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-yemen-us-airstrikes-breed-anger-and-sympathy-for-al-qaeda/2012/05/29/gJQAUmKI0U_story.html