Am I the only one who does not understand why none of these idiots are being arrested?

[Logical]

They are roaming around, going into town, etc.

It seems to me all of them are breaking the law.

Why have no warrants been issued?

Is this technically not illegal?

This seems like a farce.

Any good reason not to arrest them?

[stage left]

1. No, you're not.

They should all be in jail already.

[daleanime]

25. +1

[Dustlawyer]

54. Because they have guns too!

Cops only go after un-armed men and women.

[Kalidurga]

2. No I don't wonder why they aren't being arrested

They are just a bunch of crazed white older dudes. If they were crazed POC then they would be arrested.

[underahedgerow]

50. Here's why: At this point these guys don't pose a danger. Escalating the situation won't escalate

any sort of justice, and in fact, the penalties just keep racking up the longer these guys continue to act like idiots.

Letting them continue with their juvenile antics doesn't harm anyone, doesn't really cost anything, (certainly not on the scale of keeping law enforcement in full gear 24 hours a day, on high alert) and just keeps building the cases against more and more of these nuts.

It makes no sense to endanger anyone's life for these boys and their toys. They can be held accountable financially once this mess is over; they'll be responsible for any damages to the building and grounds.

They can be held responsible for any costs incurred at the hands of law enforcement, plus, there is grounds for a great lawsuit by the government and localities.

They'll be prosecuted to the fullest extend of the law once they come crawling back to civilization.

Their court cases will cost the taxpayers money, and while justice may not be swift, it will come eventually.

I'm very happy with the passive attitude of law enforcement. As long as these nitwits aren't posing a danger to anyone else but themselves, that's fine. Chances are good too that their own tensions will escalate and maybe they'll even shoot each other. I'd be ok with them cleaning out their own end of the gene pool, so long as no one else is at risk.

I have complete confidence that this will end well, with patience.

[CanonRay]

56. Armed men actively breaking the law are not a danger

what world are you in?

And by the way, nobody was prosecuted "to the fullest extent of the law" after the Nevada standoff. Nobody was arrested. Period.

The passive attitude of law enforcement will only serve to embolden them. I don't want another Oklahoma City.

[underahedgerow]

59. Who are they endangering? They're alone, in the effing wilderness, miles from anyone.

Their only danger is to themselves and the idiots they surround themselves with. I see a win-win here, because hopefully with all their loaded guns, I bet within a week they start shooting each other. Especially when they run out of pretzels and beer.

Going in, guns blazing, starting a shoot-out JUST to arrest them for trespassing and a few dozen other minor offenses is pointless. They're some 40 miles from any communities, so let them do the crap they're doing and hang themselves out to dry.

Justice WILL come eventually. The guys they're 'defending' are still going to serve their time in jail; at some point in time Bundy's million dollars in fines will be levied against his property, which he can now never sell because of that.

Remember, it was taxes that brought down the mafia... the same will eventually happen here in this huge, silly circle.

I only wish that the official would jam their mobile phones and cut off the water. That would be pretty funny, but very passive aggressive. It's going to be a long, cold winter.

[CanonRay]

63. Apparently the school district thinks they are a danger

they are keeping the kids home from school.

[Lizzie Poppet]

89. Which is an excess of caution on their part...

...given that the occupation is taking place 30 miles away.

[Rex]

93. Yes one where the RWing ammo lovers can drive in and out without a care in the world

30 miles is nothing to someone with a truck.

[Lizzie Poppet]

99. They need to cut off all access, like yesterday.

Curt power to the compound, too. The militants have been given multiple opportunities to end the occupation. Time to tighten the screws.

But my point was that the school closure is only justifiable by the fact that they needed somewhere to locate the influx of law enforcement, etc. (and not because of any danger to students) There's been time to find a better logistics solution.

[Rex]

100. That has my mind boggled, why would you not secure the area?

Maybe there are FBI agents in Ghilli suits out there...but seriously...WTF? The armed morons can go anywhere they want to in a truck in no time and with as much ammo as they want.

Crazy stuff imo.

[doc03]

78. What about them breaking into employee lockers and accessing government computers as

reported in another post here on DU. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027516358

[randys1]

101. And if they were Black they would all be dead or in jail by now.

We have two Americas, this situation in OR is a textbook example.

[Bluenorthwest]

107. The FBI is in charge at the scene. That means the DOJ. That means Obama.

Some harsh views you have of the President and AG Lynch.

[ladyVet]

147. Yep. If they were Native Americans, they would have been hauled out in chains.

Given a shitty trial and thrown under the prison.

If they were black, they'd have been dead days ago.

[uppityperson]

120. Have you read about them accessing the computers there, which hold private information?

Tarpman took a reporter through the building on a tour and exposed this.

[underahedgerow]

128. And? Sorry, it's not a big deal, other than their own liability for further criminal charges.

If the building held any important information, it's likely it would have been better secured.

These guys aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack.

[uppityperson]

130. Stealing privileged information is "not a big deal"? And the old "if they'd wanted to be safe,

from people breaking in after hours and using their tags to access privileged information or going through their files, they should have been better secured" ploy?

They have threatened the Sheriff's family, wife and parents. They have accessed information including ss#s on other employees now. And it's "not a big deal"?

I disagree.

[underahedgerow]

134. Um these guys couldn't pack enough snacks and socks. What are they going to do with

social security numbers?

Threats against the sheriff? So what?

They'll choke on their beef jerky long before they've got balls enough to harm someone, or figure out what to 'do' with some stranger's ss numbers.

[uppityperson]

136. Dichotomous thinking. eom

[underahedgerow]

145. It's LOGICAL thinking. It's not knee jerk reaction, it's thinking about what the actual, genuine

potential of the situation is, by weighing in the abilities of the putzes in residence, their actions and behaviors to date, and the potential of what they can actually do.

Strip it all down, and I gotta say, it's pretty effing funny.

The building is little more than a public restroom and the offices of a wildlife and bird sanctuary used by humans a few months out of the year. It's hardly the Federal Building in Los Angeles.

These guys are a real joke. The best move any authorities could do is to pack up their observation stations and go home, and show the world that these guys are utterly inconsequencial.

Then serve them with a pay rent or quit notice.

[meow2u3]

131. They're endangering the rule of law

Those armed insurrectionists are nothing but terrorists acting above the law. If you let them go back free men and/or treat them like heroes instead of criminals, you're telling them they don't have to obey the law and they can do anything they damn well please. Does this answer your question?

[underahedgerow]

144. Who says to let them get away with it? It took years to put OJ Simpson in jail, ultimately for

unrelated charges -- but he's in jail now.

Give them all the rope they need to hang themselves. They're being passive, causing no real harm, and the charges against them keep racking up in the hundreds.

Justice will come in one form or another. Putting them in jail for sitting in an empty office will only stir up the other right wing nuts.

Here's the thing, by acting passively and non-reactive to these putzes, it takes all the wind out of their sails. By not reacting at all, it shows what a total non-threat they are, and for the wussies they really are.

It's the whole not reacting to a child's temper tantrum and letting it play out until the kid wears himself out and throws himself on the ground, exhausted.

I like it.

[dsc]

58. tell that to the school system that is shut down right now

so that their buildings can be used as command centers for monitoring these fools. The fact is I can live with not escalating but why on God's green earth are these people being permitted to come and go and now a caravan of armed people are being allowed to join them?

[underahedgerow]

64. Meh, the command center can be moved to a mobile home, which will probably happen

this week.

There isn't a law that prevents more people from joining them. Preventing these unemployed weekend cowboys from drinking with their buddies would only add fuel to the fire.

It's less risky than starting a shoot out and general insurrection by freaks that are armed to the teeth. They pose more risk being provoked than they do being left to hang themselves for now, so what's the rush?

Should ANY law enforcement officials lives be put at risk for this situation? I don't think so, not one bit, not at all.

They're looking for an excuse to start a shoot out. This isn't a situation worth dying for. They're more likely to shoot each other, given enough time. We can only hope!

[dgibby]

79. Yep!

Just like their daddy.

[truebluegreen]

181. They'll be prosecuted...like Cliven Bundy was?

Half of them (at least) should already be in jail.

(And no, I'm not advocating an armed standoff.)

[KingCharlemagne]

65. Or executed extra-judicially - nt

[Rex]

95. That is one big part of it. RWing angry white types with guns get a free pass.

Funny watching people flop all over themselves with lame excuses.

[spanone]

3. selective justice.

that's how it appears to me

[passiveporcupine]

15. The difference is they are armed

If they weren't armed, they'd be in jail by now.

Unfortunately this will just embolden the gun humpers to use guns to get their way.

[Chakab]

24. People who are armed or who the police assumed to be armed

get shot to death by law enforcement on a regular basis.

The way that this is being handled is fucking absurd.

The Bundys and their supporters should have been arrested and prosecuted for brandishing their weapons against BLM personnel when they went to retrieve the cattle that had been removed from government land by force.

The more the authorities refuse to crack down, the more emboldened these idiots will get, and it will actually reach the point where somebody in law enforcement gets killed or injured.

[tblue37]

118. Some LEOs already did get killed. Two of Clive Bundy's posse murdered a couple of

policemen after leaving the ranch, as well as a man in a Walmart who tried to use his CC gun to stop the man, not realizing the woman was also a murderer. Fortunately those two shooters are dead, but any of these insurrectionists could decide to take things to another level if they think they can get away with it.

[rusty quoin]

28. They are armed and white.

They walk through black neighborhoods with assault rifles over their shoulders in Ohio. They walked into restaurants with their assault rifles on one shoulder and baby carriers on the other.

They had a black guy on their side and got away with it. I would like to see that black guy alone doing the same thing.

They are the real Americans as they say. Everyone else is scared of them.

[uponit7771]

74. +1

[Rex]

96. Too true.

[cheapdate]

4. And they are setting up armed roadblock checkpoints on public roads. Jeezus.

[Logical]

5. So true, this is almost unbelievable to me. Imagine if BLM tried this ANYWHERE! Peacefully! nt

[L. Coyote]

6. Come here and find out. But don't expect a free ranch.

But, don't camp in the same spot for over two weeks or you are in violation of the camping regulations.

[center]

[Logical]

7. That is true! nt

[Egnever]

8. My guess is

Because it is out in the middle of no where and if it wasn't for the media telling you they are there litteraly no one would know.

Why cause a confrontation with a bunch of idiots taking over a tiny building in the middle of BFE when the cold will likely run them out for you.

If someone gets shot out there it looks like a long trip to a hospital even in a helicopter.

[Logical]

10. So just let this go on forever, let them resupply forever? Sounds like a great plan. nt

[Egnever]

71. Gotta love that american instant gratification

a week = forever

[Logical]

73. LOL, so at some point you change your plan? Brilliant! nt

[Egnever]

75. What makes you think it is my plan?

I suspect winter will take care of it though.

[Lizzie Poppet]

91. Definitely need to cut off resupply.

Then, as the next step in pushing them to voluntarily end this, cut off electricity. But going in to make arrests still risks a firefight. If there's a way to end this without bloodshed, I think the ethical thing to do is still to wait them out.

[underahedgerow]

108. They can't last that long. Everyone will get bored and drunk, tensions will rise when they see that

what they're doing is having no effect on anyone or anything, and their little stand off isn't being appreciated by anyone but the lowest form of the gene pool.

They're idiots and they'll turn on each other like the rats they are. It will all be just fine.

[2pooped2pop]

17. they are supposedly setting up

Their own roadblocks just like they did near the bundy ranch and are stoping anyone that tries to cross it.

[Egnever]

72. bully for them

no one goes there anyway.

[rpannier]

19. Becuase they are attracting other clowns to their circus

The feds look like fools in the way this is being handled
The leave the power on, they let them come-and-go as they please
More crazies show up
This is the sort of crap that leads to bigger problems

For some reason, people seem to think that being mocked on social media is dispiriting them
I hate to break it to people who are that deluded, but it is not having any real negative affect; as can be gleaned from the 'patriots' that have shown up, and they're setting up their own road blocks

[underthematrix]

40. You have the perfect public reaction

But I'm guessing there's a lot going but we just can't see it. I'm sure you understand the reasoning behind that.

[Egnever]

70. Sounds like a great way to gather the malcontents in one spot where they can't hurt anyone

[csziggy]

135. Or where they are easily rounded up for arrest?

Malheur is a great location for it - miles from anywhere, far from major roads so it should be easy to monitor their movements and isolate them. The locals are pissed of at being used as an excuse so there will be little support from the closest towns and ranches. And if and when a round up of these morons is attempted, if any of them try to sneak out there is little cover, it's a horrible time of year to try to live off the land so it would be simple to find them using FLIR from helicopters.

[KingCharlemagne]

66. Meh, Fort Sumter is just a tiny little fort in Charleston Harbor incapable of defending anything or

Last edited Sun Jan 10, 2016, 01:20 PM - Edit history (2)

anyone. Why don't we just surrender it and let the bunch of idiots there have their way?

~Heard around many a Northern (and Western) campfire and household hearth in 1861.

[Egnever]

69. If these idiots want to create a little slice of dumbfuckistan in the middle of no where

I say let em. At least we will know where they are and can avoid them.

[smirkymonkey]

82. Exactly. They are looking more and more idiotic by the day.

Ignore them and they will go away.

[KingCharlemagne]

87. Can we at least keep them fenced in? - nt

[KittyWampus]

110. That "little slice" is FEDERAL LAND. This is about what the United States is as a country.

This is not an isolated incident. The Far Right is taking over Federal Land bit by bit.

[INdemo]

9. The Government is acting as if it wants this to turn into another

WACO

[branford]

33. I disagree. I believe law enforcement is attempting to prevent another Waco or Ruby Ridge.

It appears these idiots have committed little more than criminal trespass of an empty government building in the middle of nowhere during winter. They neither harmed nor directly threatened anyone, and are not disrupting any essential government services. I would also note that it is my understanding that the open carrying of firearms is legal in the area.

Attempting massive raids against these armed individuals over property crimes, when no one is endangered and time is not of the essence, needlessly risks the lives of both the offenders and law enforcement and further could make martyrs out of fools during an election year. If law enforcement can end the "siege" peacefully by simply waiting them out and letting them freeze or starve, it's exactly the type of peaceful and effective procedures we have been demanding for some time.

[Quixote1818]

36. Agree 100%

The Gov. is currently winning the PR game which really is the only game in town. Had the Gov. come in heavy handed it would have played right into the narrative they are trying to create.

[branford]

39. No one of significance is currently supporting these idiots,

including the locals and even all of the Republican presidential candidates.

There is simply no reason to risk lives, give their cause more notoriety, make them martyrs, and create problems in an election year, when simply ignoring them and a little patience should easily be able to resolve the situation.

Nothing is really happening out there. The press will soon get bored, the yahoos will leave, and they then can be arrested for their various minor criminal misdemeanors, all safely at the convenience of local law enforcement.

[Hoyt]

42. What's your position if one of the armed racist militia types draws down on a federal agent like at

Bundy or Ruby Ridge Ridge?

[branford]

47. If they actually, legitimately endanger someone,

the police should arrest the individual. However, a dislike of the militia, simple legal open carry of firearms, and criminal trespass of an empty building is not a direct threat to anyone.

Law enforcement must also endeavor to not overreact to minor provocations, or this will truly turn into the next Waco or Ruby Ridge. All that will accomplish is make these idiots martyrs and create political problems for Democrats in an election year, and that's assuming no militia member or police officer is killed or wounded in any encounter.

[peacebird]

55. Several of the Bundy gang aimed guns at federal agents during the Bundy Ranch standoff

and nothing ever happened to them. No charges.

Two from that gang went on to assassinate a couple cops who were eating lunch. They dropped one of their 'don't tread on me' flags and claimed they were starting the revolution. Those two muderous thugs are in jail.

[beevul]

109. Its kind of hard to make that claim that without looking through their scopes/sights.

Several of the Bundy gang aimed guns at federal agents during the Bundy Ranch standoff and nothing ever happened to them. No charges.

Its kind of hard to make that claim stick, without looking through their scopes/sights. Pointed in that direction? Sure. But that's not quite the same thing as 'aimed at'. I suspect the reason that none of them have been charged, is because of that ambiguity, however, I could very well be wrong.

Those two muderous thugs are in jail.

Actually, if memory serves, the miller couple are dead.

[peacebird]

113. Pointing a gun at federal agents and threatening them IS aiming a gun at them

[beevul]

117. I'm not sure what the law actually says.

Pointing a gun at federal agents and threatening them IS aiming a gun at them

It isn't quite as simple as you make it out to be. If we were talking about handguns and short distances, sure. When your talking distances of over 100 yards, theres a thousand ways to point a gun 'in that direction' without ever actually pointing it AT a federal agent.

And again, proving where the gun was aimed after the fact, just doesn't seem like a simple matter to prove in a court of law. I could be wrong, maybe the law provides wide enough coverage that it fits. I honestly don't know. I just know that 'in general', it would be a very difficult task to prove what exactly a rifle is or is not 'aimed at' unless you're the one looking through the scope/sights.

[Warren Stupidity]

142. In most states you don't have to point the weapon

at anyone. If you use a weapon as a threat you generally have committed a felony.

[underthematrix]

43. I totally agree.

i wouldn't waste one bullet on them

[PADemD]

48. They neither harmed nor directly threatened anyone,

Really? Why did the Sheriff's wife leave town with her four kids? Was it because her tires were slashed? How about the Sheriff's elderly parents who have been harassed?

[AZCat]

119. They've harmed everyone who might want to visit the refuge.

They've harmed the federal employees who worked at the refuge. They've harmed all of us because of the interruption of the work accomplished at the refuge, which benefits all of us no matter how much people like the Bundys claim otherwise.

Is none of that worth considering?

[PADemD]

121. Of course, they've harmed everyone.

My response was to Branford's assertion that the militia has not directly threatened anyone. They have threatened the Sheriff's family, wife and parents.

[AZCat]

124. Ah, apologies.

I misunderstood.

[KittyWampus]

112. They've accessed government computers/info, they are vagrants and who exactly

is paying for their electricity/power use?

Here's the thing, the Feds haven't established a perimeter, haven't cut off power.

No one is saying raid them. But wtf aren't they being completely isolated and cut off?

[branford]

125. A LOT of people here on DU have demanded raids or worse.

The bloodlust is readily apparent in many of the threads concerning the "takeover." Apparently, to many, aggressive, violent policing is totally acceptable so long as the offenders have right-wing political views. I, however, am not a hypocrite and believe in smart policing which protects the safety of both officers and offenders whenever possible, regardless of whether the miscreants are Greenpeace, Black Lives Matter, KKK, or anyone else. If a situation can be peacefully resolved with a little patience, that is always the prudent, professional, and correct course of action.

If you believe law enforcement has simply been too lax in maintaining a safe and effective perimeter, that may indeed be correct. I've not followed the news closely enough or have the requisite tactical experience to make such a personal judgment. However, we may not know the true manpower or disposition of law enforcement forces in the area. Such information would not be made public, as the militia members are almost certainly watching the news just like us.

As I indicated earlier, the only crimes that have been committed thus far appear to be fairly minor property matters such as criminal trespass. Vagrancy, use of government electricity and computers, etc., are similarly minor offenses, some of which may even be civil rather than criminal prohibitions.

I'm pleased the cooler heads in law enforcement and political leadership seem to be prevailing. I hope the press also soon loses interest, as this will undoubtedly accelerate the resolution of this mess.

[uppityperson]

132. What IS it with dichotomous thinking? Either leave them alone or go in guns ablazing?

There are other options. Why has power not been cut off? Why have the roads not been secured? Why have they been allowed to come and go at will?

Not aimed at you, but at those who Arrest them all!!! or meh, leave them be.

[branford]

140. Few people are suggesting doing nothing, and a lot of people do view the matter in a binary fashion.

Given the militia's lack of support locally and nationally, remote location, minor criminal violations, etc., non-confrontational monitoring and non-public law enforcement preparation, really is doing something, and doing it smart with little risk of bloodshed (or political blow-back and making these idiots martyrs) and high probability of resolution.

Moreover, a great number of people are indeed advocating very drastic, violent and dangerous actions, largely because of the right-wing beliefs of the militia. Sadly, these are many of the same people complaining about the militarization of law enforcement, stupid police polices where they shoot first, and ask questions later, failure of police to deescalate confrontations, etc.

Of course, the situation on the ground can change or worsen with little warning, law enforcement must be prepared to quickly adapt without overreacting, and opinions on how to then best deal with the situation may radically change.

[ieoeja]

183. They could have arrested Koresh when he was in town. Instead, they hit the compound.

They could arrest the leaders of these idiots when they are in town which they frequently are. Instead, they let them come and go. That is what the OP appears to be questioning. Why not just arrest them when they're eating in the restaurant?

[underthematrix]

41. By not confronting them and opening fire on them?

[treestar]

103. More like they are scared of that

after all they get blamed no matter what happens.

[Doctor_J]

11. If you read about Germany in the 30s, you'll find that most laws against

sedition, conspiracy, unlawful assembly, and so forth, were applied much more vigorously against the left than the right. Meetings of trade unionists, communist, Bolsheviks, etc. Were routinely harassed and arrested, while gatherings of rightists were left alone. It's the same here now. Mass media is another example. Any media figures who express liberal views quickly become unemployed and subject to threats.

History repeats itself.

[rusty quoin]

32. Yes. You are right. They hit the left hard

even though it is a huge movement, and this tiny group of armed white guys took over a fed building are treated with kid gloves.

I guess today you need to observe it all happening from Mars to be truely objective. At least that is the case for the media, but not us.

[pacalo]

12. Here!

[bvf]

20. I'm taking that, OK?

Love it!

[pacalo]

29. You're very welcome to it, bvf.

[bvf]

37. Thank you.

You put it to perfect use here, btw.

[JudyM]

13. ... And why it is dominating the news cycle... oh, the Kardashians must be on a break... Nt

[Logical]

14. So true! Or Trump! nt

[NobodyHere]

22. The short answer is that people are interested in it

Look at how many threads there are about it on DU alone.

[JudyM]

83. Right. It's as if it has some credibility and meaning beyond what it actually is. Nt

[Jesus Malverde]

23. Beats talking about TTP.

[cwydro]

53. I've actually only seen it mentioned here and there on CNN.

I'm fascinated by this idiotic standoff, and I want to see them crawl out of there inhumiliation.

But I'm not finding much news on CNN, which I have on pretty much all the time when I'm inside.

[JudyM]

84. There isn't much reporting on what's most meaningful ... mostly a quest for the juicy instead. Nt

[uppityperson]

123. Most of the coverage I've seen involves mockage. More mockage is needed. nt

[JudyM]

133. You do have a point there. Still, much more important "news" should be receiving coverage. Nt

[uppityperson]

137. I agree. It's nice to have wall to wall mockage vs FEAR but there are other news, more important. nt

[Bettie]

16. I wondered for a while

then I realized that these are people who get to do whatever they want.

They are older right wing white guys with guns. They get to do what they want, Bundy ranch proved that. They don't answer to anyone, the laws don't apply to them, the rules don't apply to them.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. It's for the birds.

[7wo7rees]

21. No. You are not alone. Mad as hell.

[wordpix]

158. Me, too. This is a fed protected wildlife refuge taken over by a bunch

of thugs. If they were black, brown or Hispanic, they would be arrested by now. But since they're white with guns, ws have to treat them with kid gloves and sy pretty p!ease, leave. I do understand the need to protect law endorcement but why not go in with military equipment like they did in Ferguson where it should not have geen used? Here, ir should be.

[demwing]

26. "Any good reason not to arrest them?"

Well, there's "Tarpman" and "Drunken Embezzlement" -- and those were just the opening acts. Seriously, you can't buy this kind of cow, you just have to milk it while its standing under the tarp, and make sure no one really gets hurt. In the meantime, get outta the way and let these derp-billies inadvertently craft an extremely effective (and free!) PSA proving why we need gun control.

This is the NRA guys. Tarpman and the Drunken Embezzler are the NRA.

[Kablooie]

27. They have guns so are under the protection of the NRA.

I'd they didn't have guns they would all be in jail but no one dares interfere with them for fear of the wrath of the NRA.

Being an old white guy with a gun give you freedom to do nearly anything you want because the NRA wants it that way.

[Agnosticsherbet]

30. White privaledge...

[rusty quoin]

35. You are correct. I could have never imagined how far white privilege would go back in the 80s

I knew about it back then. We are never to old to learn.

[Cassiopeia]

31. I'm with you.

It seems so damn simple. Set up a perimeter at a safe distance. Cut power. Arrest anyone trying to go in or out.

We've spent BILLIONS developing "non lethal" weapons for crowd control since 9/11. This seems like a perfect test run. Rubber bullets, speaker systems, tasers etc etc etc.

I thought our policy was to NEVER negotiate with terrorists etc. These fuckers are able to stroll away and have a night on the town.

I get not calling in the B2's with smart bombs, but handshakes and freedom to do whatever seems insane. Fucking INSANE!

[Bettie]

68. We're supposed to see

that they aren't terrorists because their skin is white and they are male.

This, from my white male husband who is as disgusted by this as I am.

[Dawson Leery]

34. The bias is obvious.

[Sam_Fields]

38. It's not illegal to open carry in Oregon.

As far as the trespassing the Feds may address that after they all go home arresting them one by one.

[Logical]

61. If I did that with a local park office I guarantee I would be arrested. nt

[Egnever]

76. a local park is a lot different than a place hundreds of miles from any significant town

[Sunlei]

44. Favoritism our Federal Gov. DOI/BLM has given these welfare ranchers has brought us to this day.

Federal 'good old boys' have never 'arrested' or 'charged' one of their own in the entire 40 years of their existence.

[merrily]

45. Feds may fear the clowns are prepared to resist to the death. (Just not without warm socks.)

They don't want another Montana Freemen situation and they don't want to risk any casualties becoming martyrs and a recruiting tool. Freemen, Koresh--strong arm tactics by the feds in stand offs tend to have negative blow back. If any of that can be eliminated or minimized be a little patience before people start blasting Nancy Sinatra records at them, wait a minute and a half, sez I.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. No

[Kaleva]

49. There was an armed takeover at a reservation near where I lived some years ago

In the end, the conflict was resolved peacefully and no one was arrested even though the armed standoff lasted for months.

"The FFJ-occupied compound is on a hill which overlooks Keweenaw Bay, just above Highway 41 on the Lake Superior shoreline. As you drive up the hill into the compound, you come to the "Bottom Gate," mostly blocked off with logs and other defensive barriers. On the south side of the hill is the large three-story brick building which served as tribal headquarters. Burned-out vehicles lay in front of the building. On the north side of the hill is the Holy Name Catholic Church, other church buildings, an d an old one-room schoolhouse. FFJ members both occupy the tribal headquarters, and have sanctuary in the church buildings. At the top of the hill, along Mission Road, is the "Top Gate," also defended with logs and barbed wire barricades. Halfway up the hill is a huge silver church bell that would be rung to alert the community that an assault is underway or imminent. "

http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/news/thebayup.htm

[Logical]

62. Interesting, I guess maybe this is not that unusual then. nt

[pinboy3niner]

51. Oregon standoff: As more armed men arrive, should authorities close the road?

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_standoff_arrival_of_mor.html

[Vinca]

52. Do you suppose they're trying to lure them in?

Get as many in one spot as possible and then arrest them?

[pinboy3niner]

67. I doubt it

I think they'd view that as only making the situation more dangerous and unpredictable. That may work with warrant stings, but armed militias are a different matter.

[krispos42]

57. Sadly, yes.

You see, they're NOT black, NOT liberals, NOT women, NOT Muslims, and armed. Ergo, it's okay.

[Logical]

60. That is getting to be apparent. nt

[L. Coyote]

77. And then there is that damnable problem, reality, which is complex and nuanced and external and real

and not possible to encapsulate in a simple, reductionist view of the world where seven billion individual agents of action are interacting.

And then there is the other problem, the wealthy cowboy and corporate asshats with cell phones connected to law firms are in this to poke Obama and everyone in the fed management chain in the eye, sue them, embarrass them, get revenge on them, and generally get their political will imposed on everyone else, and they are working as a large group in concert while law enforcement has to identify individual actions to bring charges.

[wordpix]

161. At a certain point, feds were prepared and did arrest those who

prevented black students from entering just integrated scools in the 60s. There was a show of civil rights law enFORCEment that sent message to the bigots nd kkk. We need to do that here. Let these 2nd amendmenters contemplate in jail.

[L. Coyote]

170. It is now very apparent this is an organized political stunt with lots of Republicans involved.

It seems more like a coordinated campaign 2016 operation by the ultra-rightists in the Trump camp than anything related to Harney County or Oregon.
It is very revealing of who is who in the Republican world and who the real gun nuts are. Extremist elected public officials and Republican Party officials are involved.

[hack89]

141. Did not expect Obama And Lynch to be so blatant about it. Nt

[Vogon_Glory]

80. I Didn'r Expect Such Mollycoddling

I didn't expect such Mollycoddling either. Certainly it's not the sort of treatment AA's and Mexican Americans (And Northern Paiutes!) would expect.

I would have expected roadblocks, caltrops, Denver boots attached to tires when the gun nuts ventured into town, a long-overdue Internet and power cut-off and other signs that Momma ain't happy.

[stage left]

81. Why has the damned power not been cut

at least? Would they have to confront the group to do that?

[Logical]

86. I agree! nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

98. Good question.

"Would they have to confront the group to do that?"

Although I've been to the refuge HQ multiple times, I never noticed anything about the utilities (no reason to look...), there's a pretty good chance service could be cut well away from the property. There are no other structures very close to the property at all, and the power lines have to lead in from somewhere.

[underahedgerow]

111. To keep the office computers live so their communications can be monitored... same for mobile

phones. That's pretty smart actually.

[stage left]

148. Ok

But I'm betting if they were not white, monitoring their communications would not be an issue. We know they're insurrectionists, correct? Anti-government "freedom fighters" who are, nevertheless, collecting benefits from the government they're going up against. What's the reason for letting them come and go at will? And letting others of their ilk join them?

[underahedgerow]

156. More people in the house, more charges, more jail time, penalties, tax liabilities, whatever....

Sure beats putting one SINGLE person's life at risk for this stupid bunch of pathetic wingnuts.

Of course their communications are being monitored.

And of course if they were brown skinned people things would probably be different, but that's all speculation.

The reality is that the waiting game is the best game to play. It makes them out for infantile fools. The best thing to do is laugh at them rather than to be so upset about it all.

The worst thing you can do to a bully is ignore them or laugh at them. Paying attention only adds fuel to the fire.

[randys1]

177. No speculation, if not white they would all be at a minimum in jail or dead. Period... but I

agree with you that the way the Feds are going about this is the right way.

Obama knows there are tens of millions of rabid racist assholes out there, most are armed, just looking for an excuse to start shooting the place up.

He knows that America is a rabidly racist society and if the Black man is seen putting some hurt on ANY white folks, the whole country could erupt.

Obama is one of the coolest, smartest dudes on this planet.

[stage left]

179. Agreed.

If they were black, they would be dead or in prison. I fear that these guys will not face any consequences for their actions. I hope I'm wrong.

[stage left]

178. I would be completely cool

with the waiting game if I believed that any of these people would ever serve jail time. Precedent says otherwise. Has old man Bundy paid any fines yet?

[OregonBlue]

85. If the media would go away, I don't care if they sit there freezing their butts until

spring. Of course in Spring, they will be far outnumbered by the birders and hikers, etc.

[Lizzie Poppet]

88. "Any good reason not to arrest them?"

Yes: avoiding bloodshed. Apparently both local law enforcement and the FBI personnel on the scene believe that this situation can be resolved without anyone having to die. Allowing them to disperse back to their home states and subsequently arresting them back where they live also has the advantage of them not bring in a large, heavily-armed group when you do so.

I have no problem with waiting them out.

[AZCat]

90. Yes, but will that happen?

Was anyone arrested after last year's incident at the Bundy ranch?

[Lizzie Poppet]

92. No...and I think there's been a lesson learned from that.

It's more than clear that letting people get away with what occurred at the Bundy ranch was a huge mistake. Apparently, Sheriff Ward was assured by the FBI that there would be arrests this time. How much stock to place in that assurance, I don't know.

[AZCat]

97. I understand these situations are volatile.

I'd just like to see some consequences eventually. I don't want the local gun thugs taking over the corner Quiky-Mart just because gas prices go up by a dime per gallon (Obama's fault, see?) with impunity.

[Rex]

94. I see some here have decided laws are conditional, good to know.

That way I can ignore them in the future.

[countryjake]

104. Only if ya got one of these...

The Pacific Patriot Network from Idaho, Washington and Oregon, heavily armed with assault rifles, arrived at the bird sanctuary today, Jan. 9, 2016, outside of Burns, Oregon. Photo by Mark Graves /Oregonian Staff


http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/arrival_of_rifle-toting_patrio.html#incart_most-read_pacific-northwest-news_article

(surely that must be the lesson we're to learn)

[Rex]

105. I just need to grow out my beard and go waste a few thousand on some death candy

and I too could be looting and plundering government property! That seems to be the message imo.

[treestar]

102. If they go into town they should be arrested

maybe they've scared the cops that they'd start shooting? Makes no sense. There is probable cause they committed a crime. If they go into town there is not even a standoff.

[Half-Century Man]

106. My thoughts on the subject.

Minority groups, occupy groups, and "niche" protesters lack the infrastructure to avoid police brutality; both at the local level and federally.

There is no media wing, presented in 20 flavors, like the RW radio network and Faux News; to recruit, radicalize, and deploy via innuendo the foot soldiers.
There are no Super PACs to fund, protect, and coordinate the actions foot soldiers to the political advantage of the donors.


How large would the RW backlash be if their were minority equivalents of Limbaugh, Hannity, Alex Jones, and Glenn Beck; people who have made hundreds of millions of dollars inciting the section of humanity which physically resembles them.
Minority advocates of equal treatment under the law and in our society are accused of incitement by publicly announcing the noticed a particular instance of inequality already.

It is all infrastructure.

[KittyWampus]

114. Very nice post. It deserves it's own thread.

And now you have me wondering.

Just as the Tea Party didn't organically spring up on it's own and was manufactured… I wonder if these take-overs of Federal Lands (it's happening in other places in various ways) is being instigated somewheres inside the power/money structure.

[Half-Century Man]

116. I'd guess the Mining and Energy industries.

to a lesser extent Lumber and Factory Farming.

[countryjake]

126. "Wise Use" foot soldiers/corporations...

The Ideological Roots of the Oregon Standoff By Alan Feuer ~ Jan 9, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/opinion/sunday/the-ideological-roots-of-the-oregon-standoff.html?_r=0


IT is tempting to dismiss the antigovernment gunmen who took control of an animal refuge in Oregon on Jan. 2 as fanatics working at the fringes of American politics. But if the methods used by the rancher Ammon Bundy to seize the federal property were radical, the ideological roots of the operation were somewhat more mainstream.

By storming the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and vowing to return it — by force of arms, if necessary — to the people of Harney County, Mr. Bundy and his men were echoing the teachings, if not the tactics, of the Wise Use movement: a conservative land-use doctrine that has been a part of the national discourse for nearly 30 years.

A successor to the Sagebrush Rebellion of the 1970s (itself a successor to the anti-national parks Boomers project of the early 1900s), Wise Use answers the question of who should own the West by granting moral primacy to natural resource companies and to logging and ranching families like the Bundys, some of which have worked the land since the pioneer expansion.

Though composed of many activists and scores of organizations, Wise Use found its voice in the late 1980s when a timber industry adviser named Ron Arnold published “The Wise Use Agenda.” The manifesto offered an expansive plan to gut environmental regulation, increase private ownership of public land and compel the federal government to open its holdings to mining, oil and logging companies and to the unrestricted use of off-road vehicles.

Mr. Arnold adopted the phrase “wise use” from Gifford Pinchot, the first head of the United States Forest Service (who said that “conservation is the wise use of resources”). In 1988 he held a conference, bringing together the likes of Exxon and the National Cattlemen’s Association, with the goal of seeding the West with grass-roots groups that could wrest control of federal land and give a local flavor to his Reaganite aims.

[haele]

174. Wise Use has always had an odd definition of the word wise...

I always wondered how it could be that the use of "wise" and other such positive words connoting some form of fair or considered thought process can make the word "profitable" acceptable to the general public who are otherwise being robbed blind by the wealthy and powerful.

Haele

[countryjake]

180. To a capitalist it is wise, reap all individual profits possible, community be damned.

Conservation be damned, especially. So it makes sense if you look at the word thru their eyes, their ideology.

Hearing of things like the actions of the Bundys, both in Nevada and Oregon, and back when that "Wise Use" movement began with the mega-corps who were behind it, it never fails that I'm reminded of that old Indian saying, a Cree proverb, I think, because it's a favorite of Buffy Sainte-Marie's...

When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are

polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

[beevul]

115. This isn't hard. A credible threat of force has been established...

This isn't hard. A credible threat of force has been established, in a nation with many millions who haven't forgotten Waco or the OKC bombing, during an already tense national political environment.

Stop and think for just a minute, about the attitude of the populace towards law enforcement. I'm not saying its undeserved. Its a fact that both the current national attitudes toward law enforcement, and the hard lessons of Waco, influence the actions of law enforcement from top to bottom, right now. I'm sure what happened at the ranch hasn't been forgotten either.

The decision makers are approaching this very cautiously, and I think, deliberatively.

Which is wise.

[lpbk2713]

122. I thought I might have been missing something.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027514907#post7

But they're just getting a "Good Ole Boy" pass.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

127. Which line of the OP could not apply to the Occupy movement? N.T.

[Logical]

138. LOL, Guns and a actual building! So you are saying if OWS would of occupied an actual....

wallstreet firm, nothing would of happened?

[Calista241]

149. Your senario would have affected thousands of people

Thousands of people would not have been able to go to work. An armed OWS takeover of a building in downtown NYC would have been front page news across the entire world.

Whole streets would have to be shut down. Essentially, all work in NYC would have come to a screeching halt, and would have cost our economy billions each hour the takeover persisted.

Nobody cares about a building 100 miles from anywhere that's not even utilized 1/2 the year.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

150. It's "would have" or "would've" ... not "would of". nt

[Logical]

151. How adorable! Nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

152. It was adorable that you did it twice in the same post. nt

[Logical]

153. Ahhh, so cute! I love grammar whiners! Here is a......

[ChisolmTrailDem]

154. Hate me all you want. I let most grammars mistakes slide right on by. Hell, I make...

...grammatical errors all the time. But I appreciate it when I'm corrected. It's just that using "of" in place of "have" is a grammatical pet peeve of mine.

Keep using it if you want to keep using it.

[Logical]

155. I hop somday 2 b as smartt and sucesful as u

[ChisolmTrailDem]

157. I get called on my mistakes, too...

Here's how I handled it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7494850

Sorry you're so butt hurt by my pointing it out. Do you need a hug?

[Logical]

159. Explain this word "hug" please

[ChisolmTrailDem]

160. It's where I take my two arms, encircling you and pulling you to me, until our cheeks are...

...pressing together, and I gently apply pressure, a little pressure, not a lot, and tell you "Shhh...it's going to be ok, my friend." And you say "It's getting better already. Is that a section of water main in your pants or are you just glad to be hugging me?"

Hope I used my commas correctly. I used all I was alloted for this post.

[Logical]

162. Wow, are you smart! I really feel stupid now. And i will reread your post history to try harder....

To be a grammer/grammar nazi!

[ChisolmTrailDem]

163. You're very gracious. Thank you. nt

[Logical]

165. Sure, i hope you got your little superiority bump! nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

166. Well, it is comparable to a section of water main, so there's that. nt

[Logical]

167. I dont understand thst sentence can you xplsin it?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

168. ...

[Logical]

169. Still not sure

[wordpix]

164. Occupy wasnt a heavily armed camp taking over fed protected land

Not at all the same. Occupy also had a ciherent message about corporate power and money in politics. These gun lovers are ranch welfare cheats and want to use and abuse our fed lands for free.

[branford]

184. Occupy was the same, and arguably legally worse.

Just because you (or I) like or agree with the message of occupy does not exempt them from the same laws as everyone else.

I live in Manhattan. As an attorney, I was frequently near Zuccotti Park because it's near the courts downtown and some of my clients. It was a filthy madhouse, prevented many thousands of people from using or enjoying the park, terribly disrupted both government services and commercial enterprises in some of the densest parts of downtown Manhattan's financial district, cost the the city and state untold sums in policing, sanitation and other costs, and there was ample evidence of regular criminal conduct, some serious, ranging from drug use, harassment, and numerous health and hygiene violations to sexual assault, all beside the obvious criminal trespass and blatant misuse of both public and private property. Even the general very liberal Manhattan residents wanted wanted the occupiers to leave. They were not well received by vast majority of people who actually lived and/or worked here. The NYC occupation occurred for longer than the current matter in Oregon, occupiers came and went even more freely than the militia, and the percentage of ultimate arrests, no less actual prosecutions, was minimal to effectively non-existent. The only aggravating factor in Oregon is that the militia is armed. However, despite the shock and dismay of people here, the open carry of weapons is not illegal in Oregon, particularly in heavily rural areas, and while certainly a logistical complication for potential law enforcement if they need to move on the militia, it's not nearly as big an actual legal problem as some want or believe.

The militiamen in Oregon are terrible people with worse ideas, but they are not stupid or politically ignorant. They know full well that because of responses to the national occupy movements and fears of repeats of government fiascoes like Waco and Ruby Ridge, particularly during a presidential election year, that law enforcement must be extremely cautions lest they make the militia martyrs, generate sympathy for their cause, and politically damage the current Democratic administration of the president and in Oregon.

The best thing right now is that there's simply no need to rush anything in Oregon. The militia have received no major political support, including from any of the Republican candidates who want them to leave peacefully, no one is directly threatened, the building was otherwise closed for the season, and everything is happening in the middle of nowhere during a cold winter. Waiting is a prudent law enforcement strategy that ensures the safety of officers, bystanders, and militia, all without providing the militia with the political victories that any government instigated raids or similar proactive actions would surely provide.

[Odin2005]

129. I'm begining to suspect they have friends in high places (FBI?) protecting them.

[L. Coyote]

171. Have you heard of these guys?

[center]

[Gawdless Pinko Lib]

139. You are not

In fact, this situation has me pining for Janet Reno.

[JEB]

143. If we can kill a dude reselling cigs and a 12 year old kid....

[NutmegYankee]

173. Federal law enforcement learned from similar encounters and now takes a laid back approach.

While local police have become more militarized, federal law enforcement took the public relations disasters of Ruby Ridge and Waco and made significant changes to prevent such bloodshed again.

[moondust]

146. Avoid a civil war?

RW extremism has grown dramatically since Obama took office. Some authorities may be wary of providing an excuse for a group of unstable, heavily armed Timothy McVeigh types to go berserk.

[Blue_Tires]

172. They get the kid gloves treatment

because Washington is scared shitless of forcing their hands and causing another Waco (assuming these rednecked cowards are serious about going down shooting)...

So where does it end? They might as well start hitting banks now, since the bankers will hand the sacks over with no fuss, and cops will give them a police escort around town on the taxpayer's dime...

[Act_of_Reparation]

175. You're not alone, no. But that doesn't make you right.

This is a terrorist attack, not a moving violation. The potential for violence and political fallout demands a strategic approach; doubly so since the perpetrators actually want the police to storm the reserve. It is far more sensible to keep tabs on them, wait them out, and then nail them when they're separated and weak.

[Logical]

182. I hope you are right! nt

[B Calm]

176. I really think they want a war. Best to sit it out, then round them up one at a time.