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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTed Cruz’s birther problem grows as more constitutional law scholars say he can’t be president
An increasing number of high-profile constitutional law professors, including one of Cruz's own professors from Harvard Law School, have in recent days argued publicly that Cruz's birth disqualifies him.
"t's all in how you read the Constitution," wrote Thomas Lee, a professor of constitutional and international law at Fordham University, in an op-ed published in the Los Angeles Times Sunday:
There are three leading theories of how to interpret the Constitution today. One is textualism: The Constitution means what its words say. The historical context of the words is important when a modern plain meaning is not self-evident. A second theory, adopted by many liberals, relies on a "living Constitution": the Constitution means what is most consistent with fundamental constitutional values as applied to present circumstances. The third theory, championed by many leading conservatives, is originalism: The Constitution means what ordinary people would have understood it to mean at the time it was ratified, in 1788.
According to Lee, two legal theories of citizenship were popular at the time the Constitution was ratified: jus soli (Latin for "law of the land), which held that a child's citizenship flowed from the actual, physical place of his birth, and jus sanguinis ("law of the blood" , which held that parents passed their citizenship to their children. However, Lee argues, at the time the Constitution was ratified, jus sanguinis applied only to patrilineal descent.
"However odious it seems today, a child born of a woman whose citizenship was different from her husband'smuch rarer then than todaycould not be a 'natural born Citizen' of the mother's country. That idea wasn't even considered until 1844 in Victorian England."
Mary Brigid McManamon, a constitutional law professor at Widener University, made a similar argument in The Washington Post Tuesday. "In this election cycle, numerous pundits have declared that Cruz is eligible to be president," she writes. "They rely on a supposed consensus among legal experts. This notion appears to emanate largely from a recent comment in the Harvard Law Review Forum by former Solicitors General Neal Katyal and Paul Clement. In trying to put the question of who is a natural-born citizen to rest, however, the authors misunderstand, misapply and ignore the relevant law."
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/more-constitutional-law-scholars-say-ted-cruz-cant-be-president/
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)you could never be certain as to the identity of the father.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I was working in the legal field in the 1970s, and paternity testing consisted of testing for various blood factors. They would test the alleged father for 4 or 5 different blood factors, not just type and Rh status, and when they combined the percentages on each factor, they would come up with 99.9% accuracy.
I don't know when they started using blood factors for paternity testing. But it was around long before DNA testing.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I find it stunning that it's possible to be president if born in another country. That should be ineligible immediately. Sorry military and diplomats. Really! We have 320 million and they can't find a candidate born on American soil? Seems like a law could fix this easily and it should be done. When the founders started, a ton were born overseas. We don't have that anymore and we need to update our requirements.
elleng
(130,963 posts)born in U.S. locations abroad, like within embassy compounds.
And if that doesn't work, depending on a future Supreme Court decision, amending the constitution might be the only way to 'fix' it, and that sure as hell ain't easy!
suston96
(4,175 posts)The constitution is a skeletal framework of government. It is fleshed out by laws and regulations such as have been passed here:
http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents
tabasco
(22,974 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)Stop embarrassing yourself.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)It really not a big deal. Just breath and move on.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... and jump at the chance to be a sneak then you probably don't deserve to win at all.
Also, it's breathe. Breath is a noun...
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I want a final law or court case to finally decide who is eligible for president. If they say you only need one parent an American. Fine. But right now everyone is interpreting it themselves. I think everyone deserve clarity on this. I didn't think what I wrote was going to cause such outrage. But I guess that is the in thing today.
403Forbidden
(166 posts)...that babies born to parents who are serving the US overseas (like military and diplomats) are born on US soil....in a "constructive" sense.
Bonx
(2,053 posts)People with foreign sounding names ? People with too many brown relatives ?
You are awesome. I never met a wonderful person who stretches so much. I guess it's good for you they say.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)I don't want him as President but maybe I want him as the Republican nominee. I think he'd be easier to defeat than would some of the others.
The "Blue Wall" in the Electoral College makes any Democrat a favorite against any Republican -- but not a lock. I don't agree with the DUers who confidently assert that the Presidential election is a sure thing.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)This is essentially based on "textualist" reading of the Constitution. Scalia and Thomas are pretty much textualists, not sure about Alito. I kind of hope this does go somewhere because there would be delicious irony in Scalia and Thomas voting in the minority against Cruz. Also it would be good to settle this crapola once and for all and a 6-3 or 7-2 decision would pretty much do that.
Reter
(2,188 posts)The Constitution says the only way to remove a sitting president is to impeach or arrest them. Cruz wouldn't be impeached, and he wouldn't be arrested by US marshals because there'd be no reason to.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)The only ones I see voting no would be Scalia and Thomas, perhaps Alito.
Reter
(2,188 posts)It's a tough call. We are all sometimes influenced by our dislike, and they will definitely dislike Cruz.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)Liberal justices are not textualists. SCOTUS justices do not just adopt a different way of interpreting the Constitution just because they may not like one of the parties in a Constitutional dispute. At least, not usually. One could make the argument that Scalia and Thomas did just that in the 5-4 decision in Bush v Gore, but well, do we really think liberal justices would act like Scalia and Thomas, even to vote against a Ted Cruz? No they would not.
Reter
(2,188 posts)Before they potentially rule on this, we can't be certain for sure how they will stand. Sometimes the SC surprises us. Scalia thinks flag-burning is free speech. Perhaps one or two of the four would not think he was natural born.
You're probably right though. Maybe a 6-3 decision. I see you are not a fan of hypotheticals though, because you didn't answer my "what if" question.
starroute
(12,977 posts)Is that children of American citizens born abroad are essentially naturalized citizens. The naturalization is automatic -- they don't have to go through a special legal process to get it -- but they are still citizens by law and not by birth.
I don't know how this would apply to someone born in a US territory (are Puerto Ricans eligible to be president?) but it definitely seem to cover someone born in another country.
malaise
(269,031 posts)Obama's citizenship - it was only racist ReTHUGs and their hacks at M$Greedia.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)Now I will have to go to a witch doctor and pay for incantations to rid my mind of her all over again.
malaise
(269,031 posts)be truthful she needs a background check before she purchases a weapon
tabasco
(22,974 posts)There must be a lawsuit. It's not possible to certify a question to the S.C., AFAIK.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)n/t
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)To say nothing about the money. Heh heh heh.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)citizen which is limited to 'those born in the USA'.
Cruz' mother was born in Delaware. Hard to be more American than that.
There was also never any question with President Obama; his mother was a bona fide US citizen and no matter where he was born, he was therefore always eligible. Same with Cruz.
So, unless you can prove somewhere that Cruz' momma wasn't a US citizen, then stfu. Moot, irrelevent, irksome issue.
And yeah, I'm cranky. Sorry. Dental work and low barometric pressure make me cranky.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)It's not simple either way, but there is what appears to be a reasonable argument that means "born within the borders of the United States."
(snip)
Article I of the Constitution grants Congress the power to naturalize an alien that is, Congress may remove an aliens legal disabilities, such as not being allowed to vote. But Article II of the Constitution expressly adopts the legal status of the natural-born citizen and requires that a president possess that status. However we feel about allowing naturalized immigrants to reach for the stars, the Constitution must be amended before one of them can attain the office of president. Congress simply does not have the power to convert someone born outside the United States into a natural-born citizen.
(snip)
The debates on the matter reveal that the congressmen were aware that such children were not citizens and had to be naturalized; hence, Congress enacted a statute to provide for them. Moreover, that statute did not say the children were natural born, only that they should be considered as such. Finally, as soon as Madison, then a member of Congress, was assigned to redraft the statute in 1795, he deleted the phrase natural born, and it has never reappeared in a naturalization statute.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ted-cruz-is-not-eligible-to-be-president/2016/01/12/1484a7d0-b7af-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... when it's against a guy they don't like but for anyone else it's just wrong and probably racist.
Pathetic...
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)You're either a U.S. citizen or you're not.
Bonx
(2,053 posts)"Although the U.S. government does not endorse dual citizenship as a matter of policy, it recognizes the existence of dual citizenship and completely tolerates the maintenance of multiple citizenship by U.S. citizens. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)it simply does not matter.
Bonx
(2,053 posts)Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)That's the point I was attempting to make.
former9thward
(32,017 posts)The U.S. recognizes dual citizenship and you said it didn't. Dual citizens are allowed to vote in both countries. So no, its not "Either a person is a U.S. citizen, or they are not." Trump is a dual citizen. He has citizenship in the U.K. through his mother.
Birthers of the world, unite!
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)He can get a U.S. passport. If he is not a U.S. cotizen he can do neither. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
Mariana
(14,858 posts)that one is a US citizen, or not, regardless of what other citizenship(s) a person may have. For example, my daughters are US citizens, each born in the US to an American mother and an English father. The fact that they are also British citizens is completely irrelevant to their status as US citizens.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)awake
(3,226 posts)I am a natural born citizen in the US and as of 2006 am also a Canadian citizen who pays taxies and votes in both countries. So you are wrong!
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)In the U.S., you are either a citizen or you are not a U.S. citizen. If you are a U.S. citizen and reside in the U.S. and meet certain residency requirements, you can vote, you can obtain a U.S. passport. If another country claims you as a citizen, that's their deal.
awake
(3,226 posts)Well you are wrong they do "recognize dual citizenship" and are willing to take a dual citizens tax money and give tax credit for taxes that the dual citizen gave to Canada. Also since a dual citizen like myself pays taxes in both countries I can vote in each an own two Passports.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)you pay U.S. taxes on that income.
awake
(3,226 posts)as well as report all overseas accounts.
And the U.S. government only care about the taxes you owe to the U.S. government.
awake
(3,226 posts)the U.S. government does care if you pay taxes to another government in which the U.S. has a tax treaty with as well, not just the taxes one owes to the U.S. government.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)awake
(3,226 posts)You said "You're either a U.S. citizen or you're not." well you can be "a U.S. citizen" as well as "a Canadian citizen" it is not just "ether" "or" there is also "and"
I do belive you can only be a "natural born citizen" (as spelled out in the U.S. Constitution) of one country.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)you are either a citizen or you afe not a U.S. citizen. What am I missing here? Why don't the people here understand my point? The U.S. government does not care about any property rights or voting rights you may have in another country.
awake
(3,226 posts)"The U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship" the U.S. DOES recognize dual citizenship.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)awake
(3,226 posts)I have been seen to be a dual citizen by the U.S. government on more than one occasion.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)How have you been recognized as a duel citizen that is different from other U.S. citizens?
awake
(3,226 posts)as long as my US passport was up to date (like all citizens). Other US citizens are not allowed to vote in Canada unless they are also a Canadian citizen and they do not get Canadian Health Care while visiting Canada.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)KentuckyWoman
(6,685 posts)He was born in Panama.
Mary MacWhatsherface is just wrong. if you have to be born on American land then NONE of our founding fathers would have been eligible to be president. They were born in Britain. America didn't even exist.
Look, it's not rocket science. If you have a right to claim American citizenship from the cradle on then you are a "natural born citizen". John McCain, Ted Cruz and Barack Obama included.
403Forbidden
(166 posts)The qualifications for President state the the person must be a natural born US citizen OR a US citizen at the time the Constitution was ratified.
So all the Founding Fathers qualified under the second option.
And the Panama canal zone was a US territory when Mccain was born there, so he's good to go.
KentuckyWoman
(6,685 posts)Go.........
Retrograde
(10,137 posts)Goldwater was born in the Arizona territory, subject to US law, and was a citizen thereof when Arizona became a state. George Romney is the closest case to Cruz - although IIRC both of his parents were US citizens at the time of his birth. It's a moot question as he never made it past the primaries - let's hope the same happens with Cruz.
ETA: yes, this did come up when McCain was running. Congress even passed a bill declaring him a natural born citizen. And McCain was born in what was then a US territory.
403Forbidden
(166 posts)The Founding Fathers were not natural born US citizens...but they were US citizens when the Constitution took effect, so they qualified.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)So two points. First, the Constitution dealt with the fact that the founding fathers weren't born in the US because it didn't exist. The operative clause states "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President." The bolded clause makes everyone who was a citizen at the time the Constitution was adopted eligible for the presidency. Second, under English common law, which informs interpretation of the Constitution, birth in the country governed, not the citizenship of parents. This means that so-called "anchor babies" are "natural born citizens" but if Cruz was born in Canada to a US-citizen mother then he MIGHT not be eligible. You can claim he is until you are blue in the face but the question is at the least unresolved.
There are cases and comments that support this, even though never expressly resolved by the Supreme Court. For example:
The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, a natural-born citizen. It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.
Justice Curtis, dissenting, Dredd Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857).
All persons born in the limits and under the actual obedience of the United States were its natural-born citizens; and it is in this sense that the phrase is used in section one of article two of the constitution.
John Joseph Lalor, Cyclopædia of political science, political economy, and of the political history of the United States, Volume 2, pg. 948 (1883).
And of course there are citations that support your position, although they largely speak of birth to American "parents" or "citizens" plural:
Citizens may be divided into two classes : natural born and alien born. Natural-born citizens are of two kinds: native bornthose born of either American or alien parents within the jurisdiction of the United Slates, and foreign bornthose born of American parents without the Jurisdiction of the United States.
John Clark Ridpath, The standard American encyclopedia of arts, sciences, history, biography, geography, statistics, and general knowledge, Volume 8, pg 3058 (1897).
NATURAL BORN CITIZENS. A natural-born citizen of the United States is one who is a citizen by reason of his place of birth or the citizenship of his father. The two classes of naturalized and natural born citizens are thus mutually exclusive, and together constitute the entire citizen body of the United States.
Andrew C. McLaughlin & Albert Bushnell Hart ( Ed.), CYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT Vol. 2 (1914).
It is now generally assumed that the term natural born is synonymous with native born. It [therefore] is clear enough that native-born citizens are eligible [for the presidency] and that naturalized citizens are not. There is a general agreement among commentators, whether or not they are advocates of an originalist approach to constitutional interpretation, that whether someone born of American parents abroad would be considered a natural born citizen is an open question.
Lawrence Freedman, An Idea Whose Time Has ComeThe Curious History, Uncertain Effect, and Need for Amendment of the Natural Born Citizen Requirement for the Presidency, 52 St. Louis U. L.J. 137, 143 (2007)
I found these quotes at this website: https://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/natural-born-quotes-2/
treestar
(82,383 posts)so it's as good as being born in Missouri. Though I also recall that to prove his citizenship, McCain has to prove one of his parents was a US citizen. Interesting nobody needed to see his birth certificate or his parents in order to believe he was a citizen.
Same with Cruz. They need proof his mother was born in the US and proof she lived in the US the number of years required to pass on her citizenship to children born in other countries. Yet the Republicans don't seem to need to see that.
It was pure racism to demand Obama produce his birth certificate. No one else had to.
Reter
(2,188 posts)McCain was born on a US military base to two US citizens living in America. He was there because his country needed his father. Being an official US base, technically, it was also US soil.
Bonx
(2,053 posts)it still won't matter.
This nuttiness needs to be flushed.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Do you find superfluous?
Bonx
(2,053 posts)I know some here are convinced. That doesn't make it correct.
403Forbidden
(166 posts)Bonx
(2,053 posts)I will go all in 100% 'NO'.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)the need for a naturalization process must be considered a natural-born citizen.
Who makes the rules for that? Congress, as defined by the Constitution. It is a legislative, not a judicial, power.
Congress' interpretation of citizenship law is dispositive, because they are granted that right in the Constitution (which refers to "naturalization" as the process of acquiring citizenship by those who didn't have it at birth). If Cruz has not been naturalized because Congress has ruled that he is a natural born citizen and the Supreme Court were to rule that he is not a natural-born citizen, the SC would be depriving Cruz of his citizenship.
Somehow, I think the justices would all have a belly laugh at this idea and never take the case, unless they thought it was going to be so much fun that they decided to take it.
No SC is ever going to start ruling that people who have always been considered citizens by Congress are not.
403Forbidden
(166 posts)..."natural-born" citizens, and "naturalized" citizens.
Who's to say that there is not a third type of Citizen, such as "unnatural born" Citizens? For the record, I do believe Cruz is a natural born citizen, but I also recognize that there is a legitimate question.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)The Constitution sees only two categories - natural born citizens and "naturalized" citizens.
Nothing in the common law or legislative history at the time supports that theory, and therefore the rules of statutory interpretation preclude it. The rules of constitutional interpretation also provide that a possible statutory interpretation is void if it would conflict with the Constitution. The rules of statutory interpretation also provide that a valid interpretation should not introduce different meanings of the same words or terms in the legislation being interpeted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/overview
Here is the Article I, Section 8 text:
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
Here is the Article II, Section I text:
There is nothing in the Constitution or the legislative history or the Common Law which would allow the creation of a third category for the purposes of interpretation of the Constitution.
The idea that the Constitution knows only two classes of citizens - natural-born and acquired - is reinforced because of the different prescription for Senators in Article I, Section 3:
Lastly, the "fourteen Years a resident", which is not time-limited (subject to the "at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" , shows that the framers considered that a person could be a natural-born citizen having been born abroad or having lived many years abroad, which matches well with the common law of the time.
So, that is an additional, enduring requirement for eligibility for the Presidency. A person could be a natural born citizen of the ages of thirty-five years who had not lived in the United States for at least fourteen years.
This is a nonsensical argument, IMO.
403Forbidden
(166 posts)... and Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe agrees.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)of the laws and not the merit and intent.
Cruz is the son of a US citizen. No matter where he was born, no matter where he was raised, he is considered by law to be a US citizen and subject to the rights and laws herein.
Argue all you want, still not going to change the outcome of the fact.
403Forbidden
(166 posts)...the question is if he is a natural born citizen.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)She voted in Canadian elections and as I understand it, she is also a Canadian citizen. Does this make a difference? If she has dual citizenship, then how does this factor in?
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)Getting way over-thunk and over-complicated and door buzzardy.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Bigmack
(8,020 posts).. I'll leave that to the Constitutional scholars.
All I know is that Karma is a bitch!
NONE of this would have come up if the "birthers" hadn't gotten their undies in a bunch about Pres. Obama.
They started it... let them live with the blowback.
Karma is, indeed, a bitch!
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)basically daring SCOTUS to elevate the lout to the Presidency.
demosincebirth
(12,537 posts)results. Remember the 2000 election that was stolen from Gore by...
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Don't be Orly Taitz, people.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)enjoy the show
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)won't care one bit if he is Canadian born or not, he's a Republican, so he must be qualified. I would love to have him disappear, but then, pretty sure No Republican will win the chance to go to the White House..
B Calm
(28,762 posts)have a very short memory.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)They probably hate Hillary...don't know what to make of Bernie. Basically, they enjoy hating.
arthritisR_US
(7,288 posts)deny my fellow Canadian the chance to run.
3catwoman3
(24,006 posts)..."a constitutional opportunist" on MSNBC tonight.
applegrove
(118,677 posts)it. At the end of the interview the CNN person said it the discussions must have been fascinating with Cruz. The professor said that there were more fascinating discussions with his student Obama and other famous people today. LOL!