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UCmeNdc

(9,600 posts)
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:01 PM Jan 2016

Ted Cruz’s birther problem grows as more constitutional law scholars say he can’t be president

An increasing number of high-profile constitutional law professors, including one of Cruz's own professors from Harvard Law School, have in recent days argued publicly that Cruz's birth disqualifies him.

"t's all in how you read the Constitution," wrote Thomas Lee, a professor of constitutional and international law at Fordham University, in an op-ed published in the Los Angeles Times Sunday:

There are three leading theories of how to interpret the Constitution today. One is textualism: The Constitution means what its words say. The historical context of the words is important when a modern plain meaning is not self-evident. A second theory, adopted by many liberals, relies on a "living Constitution": the Constitution means what is most consistent with fundamental constitutional values as applied to present circumstances. The third theory, championed by many leading conservatives, is originalism: The Constitution means what ordinary people would have understood it to mean at the time it was ratified, in 1788.

According to Lee, two legal theories of citizenship were popular at the time the Constitution was ratified: jus soli (Latin for "law of the land), which held that a child's citizenship flowed from the actual, physical place of his birth, and jus sanguinis ("law of the blood&quot , which held that parents passed their citizenship to their children. However, Lee argues, at the time the Constitution was ratified, jus sanguinis applied only to patrilineal descent.

"However odious it seems today, a child born of a woman whose citizenship was different from her husband's—much rarer then than today—could not be a 'natural born Citizen' of the mother's country. That idea wasn't even considered until 1844 in Victorian England."

Mary Brigid McManamon, a constitutional law professor at Widener University, made a similar argument in The Washington Post Tuesday. "In this election cycle, numerous pundits have declared that Cruz is eligible to be president," she writes. "They rely on a supposed consensus among legal experts. This notion appears to emanate largely from a recent comment in the Harvard Law Review Forum by former Solicitors General Neal Katyal and Paul Clement. In trying to put the question of who is a natural-born citizen to rest, however, the authors misunderstand, misapply and ignore the relevant law."

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/more-constitutional-law-scholars-say-ted-cruz-cant-be-president/

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Ted Cruz’s birther problem grows as more constitutional law scholars say he can’t be president (Original Post) UCmeNdc Jan 2016 OP
The irony is that until the advent of DNA testing exboyfil Jan 2016 #1
Paternity tests do not require DNA testing. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2016 #51
Whatever it takes to derail cruz. SammyWinstonJack Jan 2016 #2
I agree! yeoman6987 Jan 2016 #3
But diplomats (and military?) might qualify IF elleng Jan 2016 #5
Update our requirements.....? suston96 Jan 2016 #11
Yeah, disallow kids born overseas to military parents. That's fair. tabasco Jan 2016 #12
Well then vote for Cruz then. He was born overseas. yeoman6987 Jan 2016 #20
Riiiiiiight. tabasco Jan 2016 #21
No. Your just mad that I called you out yeoman6987 Jan 2016 #22
If you can't win ethically... TipTok Jan 2016 #54
You took one part of my post and made a nasty remark about it yeoman6987 Jan 2016 #64
I think it is already settled... 403Forbidden Jan 2016 #30
Thanks for the laughs. Who else should be disqualified ? Bonx Jan 2016 #40
Wow. yeoman6987 Jan 2016 #41
Do we want to derail Cruz? Jim Lane Jan 2016 #23
I suspect SCOTUS would uphold his eligibility but Scalia and Thomas might vote no. yellowcanine Jan 2016 #4
What happens if he wins and it SC does this on January 25th, 2017? Reter Jan 2016 #6
Nothing because SCOTUS would rule in his favor. yellowcanine Jan 2016 #7
Perhaps two liberal Justices would vote against him Reter Jan 2016 #8
No they would not. It is not the way liberal justices rule. yellowcanine Jan 2016 #13
Until it happens, you can't be 100% sure of their votes Reter Jan 2016 #18
The most plausible argument I've seen ... starroute Jan 2016 #9
Other than that great Constitutional Scholar Orly Taitz, there was not one single issuerelated to malaise Jan 2016 #10
Well thanks a lot. I had pretty much forgotten that horrible woman. yellowcanine Jan 2016 #15
She was so stupid that she was hilarious malaise Jan 2016 #17
Only the Supreme Court can decide. tabasco Jan 2016 #14
There are PLENTY more pressing reasons to be worried about Cruz being POTUS Proud Liberal Dem Jan 2016 #16
Sorry Canada, but he should be deported back to his home country. B Calm Jan 2016 #19
Gosh. All that hate down the drain. Octafish Jan 2016 #24
This is pretty simple, FFS. At least one of his parents must be or have been a naturalized US underahedgerow Jan 2016 #25
Well no. "Natural born citizen" is the requirement to be President. DirkGently Jan 2016 #52
It's amazing how quickly folks will jump on the birther nutjob bandwagon... TipTok Jan 2016 #55
The U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #26
Yeah, that's completely wrong Bonx Jan 2016 #33
I did not say that dual citizenship is not tolerated, Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #37
You said the US does not recognize it, which it does. Bonx Jan 2016 #38
Either a person is a U.S. citizen, or they are not. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #39
You are wrong. former9thward Jan 2016 #50
As long as Trump is a U.S. citizen, he can vote in the U.S. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #59
I understood that post to mean Mariana Jan 2016 #83
Completely, totally, 100% wrong n/t SickOfTheOnePct Jan 2016 #43
I am dual citizen awake Jan 2016 #53
The U.S. does not care what other country claims you as a citizen. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #56
You said "The U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship." awake Jan 2016 #60
If you earn income in the U.S., Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #61
A us citizen has to report and pay taxes on their world wide income as awake Jan 2016 #62
Yep. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #67
once again you do not know of where you speak awake Jan 2016 #71
Whether you vote or not in Canadian elections is of no concern to the U.S. government. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #58
Please reread your own post awake Jan 2016 #65
As far as rights are given to U.S. citizens, Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #66
What you are missing is that unlike what you said awake Jan 2016 #68
Please give me an example. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #70
As I have said above I am the example, awake Jan 2016 #72
In what way? Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #73
Immigration agents at the border have recognized both of my passports and citizenships awake Jan 2016 #78
Thank you for helping me to prove my point. Snobblevitch Jan 2016 #84
Why didn't we hear this shit for McCain? KentuckyWoman Jan 2016 #27
Exception for "natural born" requirement for Founding Fathers 403Forbidden Jan 2016 #28
Chester Arthur. Charles Hughes. Barry Goldwater. George Romney. KentuckyWoman Jan 2016 #31
Arthur was born in Vermont, Hughes in New York Retrograde Jan 2016 #63
here's the text 403Forbidden Jan 2016 #29
That's absolutely not settled TeddyR Jan 2016 #34
The Canal Zone was US territory treestar Jan 2016 #86
Huge difference Reter Jan 2016 #91
If a couple more join in... Bonx Jan 2016 #32
Which other provisions of the Constitution TeddyR Jan 2016 #35
I find this narrative ridculous Bonx Jan 2016 #36
Do you consider Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe a nutter? nt 403Forbidden Jan 2016 #42
Do you think the courts would try and prevent someone with Cruz birth situation from the presidency? Bonx Jan 2016 #89
This seems ridiculous to me. A person recognized as a citizen without Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #44
Well we know for a fact that their are two types of Citizens... 403Forbidden Jan 2016 #45
Nothing in the Constitution can justify that theory. Nothing!!! Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #46
I didn't argue for, or against, any theory. I just said there is a legitimate question... 403Forbidden Jan 2016 #48
No. There is not a 'legitimate question". Even the lawyers agree they are merely arguing the points underahedgerow Jan 2016 #75
No one is arguing that Cruz is not a US Citizen... 403Forbidden Jan 2016 #76
There is a question as to whether or not Cruz' mother is an American citizen leftofcool Jan 2016 #77
It doesn't. He was born to a US citizen, therefore he is entitled to run for the office of President underahedgerow Jan 2016 #79
I agree leftofcool Jan 2016 #87
I have no idea if he's kosher to be President... Bigmack Jan 2016 #47
One wonders if he'd pick a horrible running mate like tRump KamaAina Jan 2016 #49
If he gets the nomination someone will take it to the "Supreme Court" and we all know the demosincebirth Jan 2016 #57
So nobody born via cesarean, either? X_Digger Jan 2016 #69
Delightful Karma Mnpaul Jan 2016 #74
I have the feeling that the Republicans yuiyoshida Jan 2016 #80
They only care when a black democrat who was born in the USA. Republicans B Calm Jan 2016 #85
Well they Hate Obama yuiyoshida Jan 2016 #88
As a fellow Calgarian, I will be soooo disappointed if they arthritisR_US Jan 2016 #81
Professor Tribe called Cruz... 3catwoman3 Jan 2016 #82
CNN was talking to a Harvard Law professor of Cruz's about applegrove Jan 2016 #90

exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
1. The irony is that until the advent of DNA testing
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:05 PM
Jan 2016

you could never be certain as to the identity of the father.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
51. Paternity tests do not require DNA testing.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 09:13 PM
Jan 2016

I was working in the legal field in the 1970s, and paternity testing consisted of testing for various blood factors. They would test the alleged father for 4 or 5 different blood factors, not just type and Rh status, and when they combined the percentages on each factor, they would come up with 99.9% accuracy.

I don't know when they started using blood factors for paternity testing. But it was around long before DNA testing.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
3. I agree!
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:19 PM
Jan 2016

I find it stunning that it's possible to be president if born in another country. That should be ineligible immediately. Sorry military and diplomats. Really! We have 320 million and they can't find a candidate born on American soil? Seems like a law could fix this easily and it should be done. When the founders started, a ton were born overseas. We don't have that anymore and we need to update our requirements.

elleng

(130,963 posts)
5. But diplomats (and military?) might qualify IF
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:51 PM
Jan 2016

born in U.S. locations abroad, like within embassy compounds.

And if that doesn't work, depending on a future Supreme Court decision, amending the constitution might be the only way to 'fix' it, and that sure as hell ain't easy!

suston96

(4,175 posts)
11. Update our requirements.....?
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:17 PM
Jan 2016

The constitution is a skeletal framework of government. It is fleshed out by laws and regulations such as have been passed here:

http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
54. If you can't win ethically...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:21 PM
Jan 2016

... and jump at the chance to be a sneak then you probably don't deserve to win at all.

Also, it's breathe. Breath is a noun...

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
64. You took one part of my post and made a nasty remark about it
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 11:10 PM
Jan 2016

I want a final law or court case to finally decide who is eligible for president. If they say you only need one parent an American. Fine. But right now everyone is interpreting it themselves. I think everyone deserve clarity on this. I didn't think what I wrote was going to cause such outrage. But I guess that is the in thing today.

 

403Forbidden

(166 posts)
30. I think it is already settled...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 05:16 PM
Jan 2016

...that babies born to parents who are serving the US overseas (like military and diplomats) are born on US soil....in a "constructive" sense.

Bonx

(2,053 posts)
40. Thanks for the laughs. Who else should be disqualified ?
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 06:00 PM
Jan 2016

People with foreign sounding names ? People with too many brown relatives ?

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
41. Wow.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 06:44 PM
Jan 2016

You are awesome. I never met a wonderful person who stretches so much. I guess it's good for you they say.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
23. Do we want to derail Cruz?
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jan 2016

I don't want him as President but maybe I want him as the Republican nominee. I think he'd be easier to defeat than would some of the others.

The "Blue Wall" in the Electoral College makes any Democrat a favorite against any Republican -- but not a lock. I don't agree with the DUers who confidently assert that the Presidential election is a sure thing.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
4. I suspect SCOTUS would uphold his eligibility but Scalia and Thomas might vote no.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:30 PM
Jan 2016

This is essentially based on "textualist" reading of the Constitution. Scalia and Thomas are pretty much textualists, not sure about Alito. I kind of hope this does go somewhere because there would be delicious irony in Scalia and Thomas voting in the minority against Cruz. Also it would be good to settle this crapola once and for all and a 6-3 or 7-2 decision would pretty much do that.

 

Reter

(2,188 posts)
6. What happens if he wins and it SC does this on January 25th, 2017?
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:56 PM
Jan 2016

The Constitution says the only way to remove a sitting president is to impeach or arrest them. Cruz wouldn't be impeached, and he wouldn't be arrested by US marshals because there'd be no reason to.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
7. Nothing because SCOTUS would rule in his favor.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 12:59 PM
Jan 2016

The only ones I see voting no would be Scalia and Thomas, perhaps Alito.

 

Reter

(2,188 posts)
8. Perhaps two liberal Justices would vote against him
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:01 PM
Jan 2016

It's a tough call. We are all sometimes influenced by our dislike, and they will definitely dislike Cruz.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
13. No they would not. It is not the way liberal justices rule.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:20 PM
Jan 2016

Liberal justices are not textualists. SCOTUS justices do not just adopt a different way of interpreting the Constitution just because they may not like one of the parties in a Constitutional dispute. At least, not usually. One could make the argument that Scalia and Thomas did just that in the 5-4 decision in Bush v Gore, but well, do we really think liberal justices would act like Scalia and Thomas, even to vote against a Ted Cruz? No they would not.

 

Reter

(2,188 posts)
18. Until it happens, you can't be 100% sure of their votes
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:45 PM
Jan 2016

Before they potentially rule on this, we can't be certain for sure how they will stand. Sometimes the SC surprises us. Scalia thinks flag-burning is free speech. Perhaps one or two of the four would not think he was natural born.

You're probably right though. Maybe a 6-3 decision. I see you are not a fan of hypotheticals though, because you didn't answer my "what if" question.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
9. The most plausible argument I've seen ...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:07 PM
Jan 2016

Is that children of American citizens born abroad are essentially naturalized citizens. The naturalization is automatic -- they don't have to go through a special legal process to get it -- but they are still citizens by law and not by birth.

I don't know how this would apply to someone born in a US territory (are Puerto Ricans eligible to be president?) but it definitely seem to cover someone born in another country.

malaise

(269,031 posts)
10. Other than that great Constitutional Scholar Orly Taitz, there was not one single issuerelated to
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:16 PM
Jan 2016

Obama's citizenship - it was only racist ReTHUGs and their hacks at M$Greedia.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
15. Well thanks a lot. I had pretty much forgotten that horrible woman.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:23 PM
Jan 2016

Now I will have to go to a witch doctor and pay for incantations to rid my mind of her all over again.

malaise

(269,031 posts)
17. She was so stupid that she was hilarious
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:25 PM
Jan 2016

be truthful she needs a background check before she purchases a weapon

 

tabasco

(22,974 posts)
14. Only the Supreme Court can decide.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:21 PM
Jan 2016

There must be a lawsuit. It's not possible to certify a question to the S.C., AFAIK.

underahedgerow

(1,232 posts)
25. This is pretty simple, FFS. At least one of his parents must be or have been a naturalized US
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:16 PM
Jan 2016

citizen which is limited to 'those born in the USA'.

Cruz' mother was born in Delaware. Hard to be more American than that.

There was also never any question with President Obama; his mother was a bona fide US citizen and no matter where he was born, he was therefore always eligible. Same with Cruz.

So, unless you can prove somewhere that Cruz' momma wasn't a US citizen, then stfu. Moot, irrelevent, irksome issue.

And yeah, I'm cranky. Sorry. Dental work and low barometric pressure make me cranky.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
52. Well no. "Natural born citizen" is the requirement to be President.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 09:43 PM
Jan 2016

It's not simple either way, but there is what appears to be a reasonable argument that means "born within the borders of the United States."

The Constitution provides that “No person except a natural born Citizen .?.?. shall be eligible to the Office of President.”


(snip)

Article I of the Constitution grants Congress the power to naturalize an alien — that is, Congress may remove an alien’s legal disabilities, such as not being allowed to vote. But Article II of the Constitution expressly adopts the legal status of the natural-born citizen and requires that a president possess that status. However we feel about allowing naturalized immigrants to reach for the stars, the Constitution must be amended before one of them can attain the office of president. Congress simply does not have the power to convert someone born outside the United States into a natural-born citizen.

(snip)

The debates on the matter reveal that the congressmen were aware that such children were not citizens and had to be naturalized; hence, Congress enacted a statute to provide for them. Moreover, that statute did not say the children were natural born, only that they should “be considered as” such. Finally, as soon as Madison, then a member of Congress, was assigned to redraft the statute in 1795, he deleted the phrase “natural born,” and it has never reappeared in a naturalization statute.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ted-cruz-is-not-eligible-to-be-president/2016/01/12/1484a7d0-b7af-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html
 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
55. It's amazing how quickly folks will jump on the birther nutjob bandwagon...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:23 PM
Jan 2016

... when it's against a guy they don't like but for anyone else it's just wrong and probably racist.

Pathetic...

Bonx

(2,053 posts)
33. Yeah, that's completely wrong
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 05:41 PM
Jan 2016

"Although the U.S. government does not endorse dual citizenship as a matter of policy, it recognizes the existence of dual citizenship and completely tolerates the maintenance of multiple citizenship by U.S. citizens. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship

former9thward

(32,017 posts)
50. You are wrong.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 09:06 PM
Jan 2016

The U.S. recognizes dual citizenship and you said it didn't. Dual citizens are allowed to vote in both countries. So no, its not "Either a person is a U.S. citizen, or they are not." Trump is a dual citizen. He has citizenship in the U.K. through his mother.

Birthers of the world, unite!

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
59. As long as Trump is a U.S. citizen, he can vote in the U.S.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:54 PM
Jan 2016

He can get a U.S. passport. If he is not a U.S. cotizen he can do neither. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
83. I understood that post to mean
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 03:25 AM
Jan 2016

that one is a US citizen, or not, regardless of what other citizenship(s) a person may have. For example, my daughters are US citizens, each born in the US to an American mother and an English father. The fact that they are also British citizens is completely irrelevant to their status as US citizens.

awake

(3,226 posts)
53. I am dual citizen
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:12 PM
Jan 2016

I am a natural born citizen in the US and as of 2006 am also a Canadian citizen who pays taxies and votes in both countries. So you are wrong!

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
56. The U.S. does not care what other country claims you as a citizen.
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:47 PM
Jan 2016

In the U.S., you are either a citizen or you are not a U.S. citizen. If you are a U.S. citizen and reside in the U.S. and meet certain residency requirements, you can vote, you can obtain a U.S. passport. If another country claims you as a citizen, that's their deal.

awake

(3,226 posts)
60. You said "The U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship."
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:57 PM
Jan 2016

Well you are wrong they do "recognize dual citizenship" and are willing to take a dual citizens tax money and give tax credit for taxes that the dual citizen gave to Canada. Also since a dual citizen like myself pays taxes in both countries I can vote in each an own two Passports.

awake

(3,226 posts)
62. A us citizen has to report and pay taxes on their world wide income as
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 11:05 PM
Jan 2016

as well as report all overseas accounts.

awake

(3,226 posts)
71. once again you do not know of where you speak
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:10 AM
Jan 2016

the U.S. government does care if you pay taxes to another government in which the U.S. has a tax treaty with as well, not just the taxes one owes to the U.S. government.

awake

(3,226 posts)
65. Please reread your own post
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 11:40 PM
Jan 2016

You said "You're either a U.S. citizen or you're not." well you can be "a U.S. citizen" as well as "a Canadian citizen" it is not just "ether" "or" there is also "and"

I do belive you can only be a "natural born citizen" (as spelled out in the U.S. Constitution) of one country.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
66. As far as rights are given to U.S. citizens,
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 11:58 PM
Jan 2016

you are either a citizen or you afe not a U.S. citizen. What am I missing here? Why don't the people here understand my point? The U.S. government does not care about any property rights or voting rights you may have in another country.

awake

(3,226 posts)
68. What you are missing is that unlike what you said
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:04 AM
Jan 2016

"The U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship" the U.S. DOES recognize dual citizenship.

awake

(3,226 posts)
72. As I have said above I am the example,
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:14 AM
Jan 2016

I have been seen to be a dual citizen by the U.S. government on more than one occasion.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
73. In what way?
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:18 AM
Jan 2016

How have you been recognized as a duel citizen that is different from other U.S. citizens?

awake

(3,226 posts)
78. Immigration agents at the border have recognized both of my passports and citizenships
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:33 AM
Jan 2016

as long as my US passport was up to date (like all citizens). Other US citizens are not allowed to vote in Canada unless they are also a Canadian citizen and they do not get Canadian Health Care while visiting Canada.

KentuckyWoman

(6,685 posts)
27. Why didn't we hear this shit for McCain?
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 04:57 PM
Jan 2016

He was born in Panama.

Mary MacWhatsherface is just wrong. if you have to be born on American land then NONE of our founding fathers would have been eligible to be president. They were born in Britain. America didn't even exist.

Look, it's not rocket science. If you have a right to claim American citizenship from the cradle on then you are a "natural born citizen". John McCain, Ted Cruz and Barack Obama included.

 

403Forbidden

(166 posts)
28. Exception for "natural born" requirement for Founding Fathers
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 05:05 PM
Jan 2016

The qualifications for President state the the person must be a natural born US citizen OR a US citizen at the time the Constitution was ratified.

So all the Founding Fathers qualified under the second option.

And the Panama canal zone was a US territory when Mccain was born there, so he's good to go.

Retrograde

(10,137 posts)
63. Arthur was born in Vermont, Hughes in New York
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 11:07 PM
Jan 2016

Goldwater was born in the Arizona territory, subject to US law, and was a citizen thereof when Arizona became a state. George Romney is the closest case to Cruz - although IIRC both of his parents were US citizens at the time of his birth. It's a moot question as he never made it past the primaries - let's hope the same happens with Cruz.

ETA: yes, this did come up when McCain was running. Congress even passed a bill declaring him a natural born citizen. And McCain was born in what was then a US territory.

 

403Forbidden

(166 posts)
29. here's the text
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 05:09 PM
Jan 2016
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

The Founding Fathers were not natural born US citizens...but they were US citizens when the Constitution took effect, so they qualified.
 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
34. That's absolutely not settled
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 05:43 PM
Jan 2016

So two points. First, the Constitution dealt with the fact that the founding fathers weren't born in the US because it didn't exist. The operative clause states "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President." The bolded clause makes everyone who was a citizen at the time the Constitution was adopted eligible for the presidency. Second, under English common law, which informs interpretation of the Constitution, birth in the country governed, not the citizenship of parents. This means that so-called "anchor babies" are "natural born citizens" but if Cruz was born in Canada to a US-citizen mother then he MIGHT not be eligible. You can claim he is until you are blue in the face but the question is at the least unresolved.

There are cases and comments that support this, even though never expressly resolved by the Supreme Court. For example:

“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, ‘a natural-born citizen.’ It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”

Justice Curtis, dissenting, Dredd Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857).

“All persons born in the limits and under the actual obedience of the United States were its “natural-born citizens”; and it is in this sense that the phrase is used in section one of article two of the constitution.”

John Joseph Lalor, Cyclopædia of political science, political economy, and of the political history of the United States, Volume 2, pg. 948 (1883).

And of course there are citations that support your position, although they largely speak of birth to American "parents" or "citizens" plural:

“Citizens may be divided into two classes : natural born and alien born. Natural-born citizens are of two kinds: native born—those born of either American or alien parents within the jurisdiction of the United Slates, and foreign born—those born of American parents without the Jurisdiction of the United States.”

John Clark Ridpath, The standard American encyclopedia of arts, sciences, history, biography, geography, statistics, and general knowledge, Volume 8, pg 3058 (1897).

“NATURAL BORN CITIZENS. A natural-born citizen of the United States is one who is a citizen by reason of his place of birth or the citizenship of his father. The two classes of naturalized and natural born citizens are thus mutually exclusive, and together constitute the entire citizen body of the United States. ”

Andrew C. McLaughlin & Albert Bushnell Hart ( Ed.), CYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT Vol. 2 (1914).

“It is now generally assumed that the term “natural born” is synonymous with “native born.” “It [therefore] is clear enough that native-born citizens are eligible [for the presidency] and that naturalized citizens are not.” There is a general agreement among commentators, whether or not they are advocates of an originalist approach to constitutional interpretation, that “whether someone born of American parents abroad would be considered a natural born citizen” is an open question.”

Lawrence Freedman, An Idea Whose Time Has Come–The Curious History, Uncertain Effect, and Need for Amendment of the “Natural Born Citizen” Requirement for the Presidency, 52 St. Louis U. L.J. 137, 143 (2007)

I found these quotes at this website: https://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/natural-born-quotes-2/







treestar

(82,383 posts)
86. The Canal Zone was US territory
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 09:16 AM
Jan 2016

so it's as good as being born in Missouri. Though I also recall that to prove his citizenship, McCain has to prove one of his parents was a US citizen. Interesting nobody needed to see his birth certificate or his parents in order to believe he was a citizen.

Same with Cruz. They need proof his mother was born in the US and proof she lived in the US the number of years required to pass on her citizenship to children born in other countries. Yet the Republicans don't seem to need to see that.

It was pure racism to demand Obama produce his birth certificate. No one else had to.

 

Reter

(2,188 posts)
91. Huge difference
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 09:23 PM
Jan 2016

McCain was born on a US military base to two US citizens living in America. He was there because his country needed his father. Being an official US base, technically, it was also US soil.

Bonx

(2,053 posts)
89. Do you think the courts would try and prevent someone with Cruz birth situation from the presidency?
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 04:41 PM
Jan 2016

I will go all in 100% 'NO'.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
44. This seems ridiculous to me. A person recognized as a citizen without
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 06:53 PM
Jan 2016

the need for a naturalization process must be considered a natural-born citizen.

Who makes the rules for that? Congress, as defined by the Constitution. It is a legislative, not a judicial, power.

Congress' interpretation of citizenship law is dispositive, because they are granted that right in the Constitution (which refers to "naturalization" as the process of acquiring citizenship by those who didn't have it at birth). If Cruz has not been naturalized because Congress has ruled that he is a natural born citizen and the Supreme Court were to rule that he is not a natural-born citizen, the SC would be depriving Cruz of his citizenship.

Somehow, I think the justices would all have a belly laugh at this idea and never take the case, unless they thought it was going to be so much fun that they decided to take it.

No SC is ever going to start ruling that people who have always been considered citizens by Congress are not.

 

403Forbidden

(166 posts)
45. Well we know for a fact that their are two types of Citizens...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 07:00 PM
Jan 2016

..."natural-born" citizens, and "naturalized" citizens.

Who's to say that there is not a third type of Citizen, such as "unnatural born" Citizens? For the record, I do believe Cruz is a natural born citizen, but I also recognize that there is a legitimate question.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
46. Nothing in the Constitution can justify that theory. Nothing!!!
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 08:16 PM
Jan 2016

The Constitution sees only two categories - natural born citizens and "naturalized" citizens.

Nothing in the common law or legislative history at the time supports that theory, and therefore the rules of statutory interpretation preclude it. The rules of constitutional interpretation also provide that a possible statutory interpretation is void if it would conflict with the Constitution. The rules of statutory interpretation also provide that a valid interpretation should not introduce different meanings of the same words or terms in the legislation being interpeted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/overview
Here is the Article I, Section 8 text:

The Congress shall have power ...
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Here is the Article II, Section I text:
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

There is nothing in the Constitution or the legislative history or the Common Law which would allow the creation of a third category for the purposes of interpretation of the Constitution.

The idea that the Constitution knows only two classes of citizens - natural-born and acquired - is reinforced because of the different prescription for Senators in Article I, Section 3:
No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the age of thirty years, and been nine years a citizen of the United States and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state for which he shall be chosen.


Lastly, the "fourteen Years a resident", which is not time-limited (subject to the "at the time of the adoption of this Constitution&quot , shows that the framers considered that a person could be a natural-born citizen having been born abroad or having lived many years abroad, which matches well with the common law of the time.

So, that is an additional, enduring requirement for eligibility for the Presidency. A person could be a natural born citizen of the ages of thirty-five years who had not lived in the United States for at least fourteen years.

This is a nonsensical argument, IMO.

 

403Forbidden

(166 posts)
48. I didn't argue for, or against, any theory. I just said there is a legitimate question...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 08:32 PM
Jan 2016

... and Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe agrees.

underahedgerow

(1,232 posts)
75. No. There is not a 'legitimate question". Even the lawyers agree they are merely arguing the points
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:22 AM
Jan 2016

of the laws and not the merit and intent.

Cruz is the son of a US citizen. No matter where he was born, no matter where he was raised, he is considered by law to be a US citizen and subject to the rights and laws herein.

Argue all you want, still not going to change the outcome of the fact.

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
77. There is a question as to whether or not Cruz' mother is an American citizen
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:27 AM
Jan 2016

She voted in Canadian elections and as I understand it, she is also a Canadian citizen. Does this make a difference? If she has dual citizenship, then how does this factor in?

underahedgerow

(1,232 posts)
79. It doesn't. He was born to a US citizen, therefore he is entitled to run for the office of President
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:37 AM
Jan 2016

Getting way over-thunk and over-complicated and door buzzardy.

 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
47. I have no idea if he's kosher to be President...
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 08:23 PM
Jan 2016

.. I'll leave that to the Constitutional scholars.

All I know is that Karma is a bitch!

NONE of this would have come up if the "birthers" hadn't gotten their undies in a bunch about Pres. Obama.

They started it... let them live with the blowback.

Karma is, indeed, a bitch!

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
49. One wonders if he'd pick a horrible running mate like tRump
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 08:53 PM
Jan 2016

basically daring SCOTUS to elevate the lout to the Presidency.

demosincebirth

(12,537 posts)
57. If he gets the nomination someone will take it to the "Supreme Court" and we all know the
Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:48 PM
Jan 2016

results. Remember the 2000 election that was stolen from Gore by...

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
80. I have the feeling that the Republicans
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 12:39 AM
Jan 2016

won't care one bit if he is Canadian born or not, he's a Republican, so he must be qualified. I would love to have him disappear, but then, pretty sure No Republican will win the chance to go to the White House..

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
85. They only care when a black democrat who was born in the USA. Republicans
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 09:09 AM
Jan 2016

have a very short memory.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
88. Well they Hate Obama
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 11:15 AM
Jan 2016

They probably hate Hillary...don't know what to make of Bernie. Basically, they enjoy hating.

applegrove

(118,677 posts)
90. CNN was talking to a Harvard Law professor of Cruz's about
Fri Jan 15, 2016, 05:59 PM
Jan 2016

it. At the end of the interview the CNN person said it the discussions must have been fascinating with Cruz. The professor said that there were more fascinating discussions with his student Obama and other famous people today. LOL!

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