Dear Liberals: Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism

[ericson00]

Legitimate criticism of Islamists has been acute but sparse, and the pushback against debate has come in many flavors -- almost all widely missing the point. In Europe and the United States, the left are a great deal of the problem. One of the characteristics of the liberal left is a political preoccupation with defending those who are disenfranchised; those that are viewed as victims. Often, I count myself as one of these liberals.

In the last 50 years, the liberal left has accomplished much by flouting a negligent Establishment, strengthening civil liberties that would have otherwise been lost in stagnant conservatism. But any chronic preoccupation eventually leads to myopia, and in the case of Islamism, the left seems to have lost its way. Perhaps this is a result of some deep-seated fear of offending, but I submit that dishonesty is at the heart

link

Darn straight, and if Democrats want to prevent scenarios where Donald Trump, of all people, polls nearly as well as HRC on terrorism, or where Obama has sub-40 terrorism approvals, they ought to take heed.

Why do I post this? It seems the extreme-left is the force that pushes the POV the author criticizes in this piece. While most of those types are supporting Bernie, Hillary also has some of those types. The Dem Party needs to clean house on this. Ditto the Israel-haters. You are driving away Jewish voters (who not only have actually contributed to America's growth, but voted Democratic and supported progressivism, and the margin dropped 10% from 2008 to 2012) as well as a lot of gentile voters as well. As we've seen in Europe for some time, and in the Middle East, Jews are most at risk by Islamic extremism.

The big reasons I'm a Democrat is because I do believe in equal rights for gays, ethnic and religious minorities, freedom of expression (including clothes that don't cover one's hair). Almost zero [link:pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/|Muslim societies] and places from where these refugees would come have it, nor do people who emigrate from those countries to Western ones tend to integrate. We don't need that kind of sentiment in our political system influencing politicians. We not only have enough of that in con Repubs; too many Muslims are Falwell x1000 on social issues.

[guillaumeb]

1. Nice restatement of your previous post, but your Islamophobia is showing.

No, being critical of Islam is not racism as the term is defined, but it is discrimination nevertheless.

You can attempt to hide it but what many here at DU are posting about Islam could just as easily be said, and is being said, by Donald Trump.

Are some here trying to equal or outdo Trump in bigotry and hate speech? Some of you are succeeding, but if by succeeding you become like Trump, then the forces of intolerance have won.

[ericson00]

3. why is HuffPo publishing it if what I posted, legit and not shoot-from-hip

is Donald Trump? Why have others joined; Salon, Forward Progressives, etc. As a Jewish Democrat, I feel very scared of Radical Muslims.

And no, criticizing a religion or how its commonly practiced is NOT discrimination!!! We do that here with Christianity all the time!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

70. Get over your fear. USA and Israel not built by scaredy-cats

As a Jewish Democrat, I feel very scared of Radical Muslims.

1. More Americans have been killed by radical right-wingers than radical muslims.

2. Radical muslims have killed 0.001 percent of Americans. That's about 1 in 100,000 people.

3. Radical muslims are not as big a problem as big American corporations who have killed many times much higher percentages of Americans.

4. Selling fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is the primary strategy of conservatives and Republicans. You can be braver than giving into their propaganda.

[ericson00]

72. our government and others around the world

have to spend billions of dollars to foil jihad attacks and pay thousands of people for thousands of man-hours to do it. That is not indicative of some crazy phobia nor is it done for attacks done to advance the cause of Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, or Buddhism around the globe on all inhabited continents.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

76. It is a crazy phobia. Better to have spent the trillions against US poverty than against Iraq.

Most of that spending around the world is done in such a ham-fisted way that it has created more problems than it has solved: Exhibit A: Daesh (ISIS).

[mhatrw]

92. they stole countless millions to foment what they now steal countless billions

to "protect" us against. Read history.

[leftynyc]

82. Can't speak for that poster

but since I work in NYC, I am far more likely to be killed by Islamic terrorists than a band of right wing assholes. That doesn't stop me from going to work and living my life but I'm always aware of my surroundings. People who live in Omaha, NE have a much different experience than those who live in NY or any other high profile city.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

89. Perhaps you are not a person of color shot by the likes of Bernhard Goetz or a cop?

[mhatrw]

95. obviously not, so 19 scary Saudis are right up there with bird flu.

so damn brown and scary! Hold me!

[smirkymonkey]

141. Perhaps that is the difference for some of us. It is a very real and ever present threat.

I lived in NYC for 12 years and was there during 9/11. I now live in Boston and was here during the Marathon bombings. For those of us who live in target zones, it is difficult to not take Islamic hatred of the west personally. I suppose it's much easier if you live in some podunk town in the Midwest, where you are very unlikely to become a victim. The same thing with men, they are not targets of islamic misogyny, so muslims immigration en masse does not pose the threat that it does to women. Or people who aren't Jewish, who don't know what it's like to be the target of muslim hatred.

It's easy to be self-righteous if you aren't a target.

[leftynyc]

147. I just happened to come back online

And saw this. 9/11 happened while I watched it from my office window. We watched the second plane hit and the first tower fall...then we stopped watching. It's not something I watched on tv, it was right in front of my face. Then the smoldering and burning electrical smell for weeks. I work near and commute from two high profile sites. That's reality for millions in my city. Those that mock or downplay a very real threat make me want to vomit.

[smirkymonkey]

157. I know what you mean. I watched it from 7th Ave South, right near St. Vincent's Hospital.

My office was in the West Village at the time, not in the war zone, but close enough for it to be absolutely horrifying. Walking back to my apartment uptown that day with the shell-shocked survivors from ground zero covered in ash. Nobody spoke, people just marched back to where they were going with this dead, blank look in their eyes. i will never forget it.

For months, so many of us were completely freaked out - whenever the subway stopped between stations, when there was a backpack left unattended, anything out of the ordinary caused panic. I remember being in an Indian restaurant and they turned off the lights and turned on some strobe lights for someones birthday and everyone started screaming because we didn't know what was happening. That is terrorism. I hate them for that. I thought New York was a magical place before that day. I hate them for making us live in fear.

And eff anybody who were not there that day and feels like they have the right to judge. You weren't there and you don't know what it was like.

[leftynyc]

161. NY is still magical

I wouldn't live anywhere else.

[smirkymonkey]

170. Yes, it is. But for a long time, I was shaken up by that event.

I still love New York, but it took me a long time to feel safe again.

[leftynyc]

197. Understandable

I'm still HYPER aware of what's going on around me. If I was forced to ever say something nice about Trump, it's the way he's fighting against cruz his charge that trump has NY values. Trump really went after him about that. Today's Daily News Cover: Drop Dead Ted. Love it.

[ronnie624]

185. In the face of solid statistics and reliable info,

fear-mongering by the US media establishment does its work beautifully, even on DU.

[mythology]

228. I live in Boston and I'm not afraid

You are far more likely to die in a car accident or from a gun than from terrorism. Are you terrified of every car you see?

You say it's easy to be self-righteous if you aren't a target, but it's apparently it's even easier to let fear rule logic. You are making a mathematically incorrect choice in opting to be afraid of things that are anomalies.

[mhatrw]

241. You mean like the target of a drone?

Those brown guys hiding in caves halfway across the globe and making those pipe bombs in their basements are just SO damn scary!

Not like the mass shooting scary that all Americans have to live with everyday. Not like the for profit healthcare and Russian roulette financial system that can bankrupt any of us on any given day. Not like that drive to work and back that could kill any of us on any given day. Not like the lack of decent food or clean water or a livable ecosystem that threatens us all. Not like the people who live in the areas our fighter jets and drones so routinely drop bomb after bomb upon so far away.

Let all of us big city dwellers huddle together in our targeted skyscrapers and at our local events in desperate fear of those scary brown bogeymen who target all of us just as we target our chances at the superlotto. You know, because 9/11!

[arthritisR_US]

191. Israel's aphartied regime has been very good at propagating fear

in the very same way the GOP do. They denigrate your President and his cabinet with their radical Likud BS.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

86. HuffPo has published Jeb Bush and many conservatives. It's your problematic commentary & attitude.

In one breath you call for "cleaning house" to purge those critical of a country and in the next you are pretending to praise free expression while simultaneously denying free expression to muslim women.

Are you male? It smacks of old white males telling women what they should wear and not wear. That's not a progressive, Democratic, liberal value.

[Blue_In_AK]

223. Facebook meme...

With more than a billion Muslims worldwide, if they were intent on killing us all - including all Jews - we'd be dead already.

[ProfessorGAC]

7. I'll Plead Guilty Then

I don't care which religion. If, in the name of religion, NO MATTER ANY OTHER EXTRINSIC INFLUENCES, you commit acts of aggression or terror against the innocent, then i have to call out the religion as a problem.

OK, Daesh is bunch of gangsters and i question whether they have actually read the Koran, but they're cloaking themselves in those tenets as if there is something there that allows that behavior to be rationalized through religious motivations.

Then, i admit i'll take the broadbrush and say there's something wrong with that religion and that i have my doubts about the cultures that have based their mores on that religion.

Like i said; guilty as charged

[guillaumeb]

15. The jury is still out Professor,

when you wrote:

OK, Daesh is bunch of gangsters and i question whether they have actually read the Koran, but they're cloaking themselves in those tenets as if there is something there that allows that behavior to be rationalized through religious motivations.

I agree. But cloaking themselves in the tenets of Islam to allow them to rationalize what they do is not an indictment of Islam. The violence is being committed by people.

Obliterating office buildings in the name of Islam is not a condemnation of Islam, just as obliterating two Japanese cities with atomic weapons is not an indictment of all Americans..

[ShrimpPoboy]

45. Not all Americans

But certainly an indictment of the ideas that led us to that.

[guillaumeb]

49. Agreed.

It is lunchtime here. A shrimp po'boy would taste great right now.

[oberliner]

24. You question whether they have actually read the Koran?

Have you read it?

[guillaumeb]

50. That begs the question O.

Have you? I have read it many times, as well as the Old and New Testament. There is much that I find disagreeable in all 3 books. And much I find to admire. Fortunately the good outweighs the bad, in my view.

[oberliner]

55. I have not read it

But I am not suggesting that the Daesh people haven't read it.

I've read only parts of the OT, NT and Koran (and all translated into English).

[guillaumeb]

60. Understood and agreed.

I also have read the Koran in English only. The OT and the NT in French and English.

But we are well aware that 10 people can read the same thing and come up with ten different things. Sometimes when a thing is read as part of a class the teacher's interpretation can weigh on the students.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

91. All religions (even buddhist) have committed acts of aggression or terror. Therefore you indict

Therefore you indict and call out ALL religions. Plus you therefore have doubts about the American culture that has based its mores in large part on the christian religion.

[ericson00]

174. people aren't going around the globe blowing themselves up yelling

"Buddha akbar," "Vishnu akbar," "Jesus akbar, "Yahweh akbar," etc.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

181. Yes they are. Who cares if they are blowing themselves up. The end result is the same.

Buddhists are killing muslims in Burma.
Hindus are killing sikhs in India and christians are killing them in the USA.
Jews are killing Palestinians in Israel.

It's the same all over the world. People killing people in the name of religion.
It's not pretty and it is downright stupid.

[ericson00]

183. what part of "around the world" do you not get?

as in Radical Islamists are going around to places outside localized conflicts to commit evil terror jihad. Its costing global intel agencies billions across many countries billions to fight Islamic terrorism, not other religiously-inspired terrorisms.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

190. Of course, but you don't distinguish between Islam and Radical Islam.

You also forget Bush's role.

[ericson00]

198. first off, I refer you to

this post downthread about blaming Bush for everything.

You do raise a point, which I will address. When I say Radical Islam, I mean the groups and their supporters who seek to impose their idealized form of Islam over others (both practitioners and non-practitioners of the presently most practiced form of Islam) using terrorist force or manipulative political lies. Right now, Radical Islam emanates from the presently commonly practiced form of Islam, (the form which results in the views in the graphs below) which has not yet been reformed, and whose reform is stifled by Islamists, sympathizers, and ultra-PC apologists. If Islam were to finally undergo a reformation, then Radical Islam would weaken, if not whither.

[Marr]

277. I can't help but notice you didn't get a response.

That seems to be the way. We have too many people who will simply shout 'bigot' at anyone who offers a criticism of Islam, and insist that the problem is only a microscopic minority of radicalized terrorists. But if you demonstrate that views most westerners consider extreme are in fact mainstream in most of the Islamic world, the conversation is over.

The author of this article has nailed it. Too much of the left has become myopic; so fixated on issues of inequality and racism that they cannot grapple with something like this. They've got their hammer, and everything looks like a nail.

[floriduck]

166. Daesh and their version of Islam was Islam

originated in Saudi Arabia. That has been well documented. Yet we helped the Saudis create the fourth largest military in the world. And our existing and past political leaders bow to their wishes as if they were our royalty.

I think my chances of being gunned down or blown up are greater sitting in a Planned Parenthood office than living near American Muslims.

[ericson00]

200. the strange views go far outside of Saudi Arabia

and outside of SA, proselytizing is common too:


and as I've said before, you can poo-poo Islamic terrorism all you want, but that doesn't change that this country and others spend billions of dollars and thousands of man-hours of labor a year to prevent Islamic jihad evil terror.

[Lizzie Poppet]

10. Being "critical" =/= discrimination.

It all depends on the content of the criticism.

[guillaumeb]

16. True. But if I posit Islam as the problem, and that has been done by many posters here,

that conflation of Islam=terrorism is not critical thinking, it is Islamophobia, or discrimination against Muslims.

[Lizzie Poppet]

26. Agreed, but with a caveat:

If it's posited that Islam is the problem, that's both discriminatory and false. However, if it's asserted that Islam is a contributor to a number of very negative things (institutionalized misogyny, for one), then that is clearly the case. Although how that demonstrable fact is expressed can certainly end up being bigoted, the assertion itself is not.

[guillaumeb]

34. Caveat accepted because you are correct.

Many things contribute to, or are factors, in explaining behavior. But that distinction is missed by many people. And the many posts here that equate Islam=terror, or Islam=hate for western values, (whatever those values might be), are proof that your distinction is missed.

[Lizzie Poppet]

88. Yeah...a lot of people tend to oversimplify this kind of thing.

I often have the opposite inclination: to over-complicate things, often to my detriment! Not this time, though. Any determination of the influences behind large behavioral trends is gonna get complicated, period. It's just not the kind of thing that lends itself to simple dichotomies (or bumper sticker analysis).

[snagglepuss]

127. Your the one being irrational. Islam is definitely implicated with the terrorist attacks

because all the Islamic attacks worldwide have been done by people who not only identify themselves as Muslim but also who commit those acts in the name of their god and justify the acts by quoting the Koran. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Nobody is accusing terrorists of being Muslim, terrorists are identifying themselves as such.

The very fact that Islam has the loosest standards as to who is Muslim is part of the problem. As you know all one has to do to be Muslim is state there is one god and then observe the 5 pillars.

[mhatrw]

163. Who attacks more people worldwide, the US military or Muslims?

because all the US military attacks worldwide have been done by people who not only identify themselves as members of the US military but also who commit those acts in the name of their country and justify the acts by quoting the Bible and the Constitution.

The very fact that US military has the loosest standards as to who can join is part of the problem. As you know, all one has to do to become an Army private is to take orders and say the Pledge of Allegiance.

[snagglepuss]

184. Apples and and oranges.

Last edited Fri Jan 15, 2016, 11:57 AM - Edit history (2)

The discussion is whether Islam is implicated in terrorism and if someone is of the opinion it is implicated whether they can voice that opinion without being labelled phobic.

However lets discuss what you state.

Your opinion of the USA is an opinion shared by millions of people worldwide but guess what, in America you can shout that from the rooftops and the law will protect you. However much some "patriots" worship the USA, the USA is not a deity that dictates truths from above. It's laws are man made and can be changed. No one has to throw themselves on the floor, submit uncritically to it's laws and praise it.


The USA has many serious faults but it's faults are not the faults of Islam. The critical difference being that it's laws have been created by humans not by an unaccountable, fickle and invisible entity.

[mhatrw]

216. Again, the problem is not the religion itself but the segment of leadership

who uses the religion to promote violence, genocide, misogyny, and homophobia.

The Judeo-Christian Bible historically has been and today still is used by fundamentalist extremists in the USA and around the globe to promote violence, genocide, misogyny, and homophobia. Can you deny this?

So, to me, the popular idea among most US citizens that Islam is somehow a uniquely evil religion feeds right into promoting unhelpful divisions and justifying homicidal warfare and genocide on both sides. All fundamentalist religious extremists who try to use religion to promote violence, genocide, misogyny, and homophobia need to come to terms with the fact that the basic humanistic morality of treating others as you would want to be treated overrides the supposed tribal divisions that you, Bill Maher, and so many others on this thread and in our greater society are so desperate to promote.

Have most Christians in developed nations developed a more humanistic and less tribalistic morality over time? Of course. And that's exactly what you are attacking when you demand that we all recognize the uniquely evil nature of all the human beings who belong to a tribe other than our own.

More than 80% of Americans just supported needlessly murdering tens of thousands of Iraqis based on BushCo's lies. Why do you think that so many Americans gleefully supported all of these unjustifiable murders?

Could it be that most of them already think that all Muslims are evil, as you demand all of us to think? Could it be that such bigotry is unhelpful?

Yes, Islamic bigotry toward women and homosexuals is obviously terrible. And asymmetrical warfare of terror is obviously terrible. But you cannot fight bigotry, intolerance, and murder with bigotry, intolerance, and murder. Less developed peoples often have less developed viewpoints. To help to change this, we need to promote the more developed viewpoint of our common humanity rather than the less developed viewpoints of fear, bigotry, hatred, violence, and division.

[Blue_In_AK]

225. +++++++

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

234. Christianity doesn't allow for multiple wives

Islam does. That right there is one reason why women's rights have trouble taking hold in Islamic countries.

[mhatrw]

237. So Mormons are not Christians?

Read the Bible sometime.

And stop desperately looking for facile black and white tribal divisions between humans that fade to gray on closer inspection.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

239. No, they aren't.

They've added an entire other book to their belief system. Their belief system is very different from most of christianity - even allowing for all the differences within christianity.

And btw, I am not a believer, although I come from a christian background. I detest fundamentalism, especially it's effects on women.

[mhatrw]

245. Isn't it largely the same effect whether you are a fundy Christian, an ultra-orthodox Jew,

Last edited Wed Jan 20, 2016, 03:02 AM - Edit history (1)

or a fundamentalist Muslim?

Again, I am not defending treating women as second class humans. But this practice is not unique to Muslims today, and is certainly not historically unique to Muslims.

Calling Islam a uniquely evil religion is not going to help fundy Muslims gain more enlightened views on the rights of women and LBGT individuals. We must recognize our similarities and our own recent cultural evolution in these respects and open a dialogue. This sort of cultural dialogue is probably the biggest reason that most Muslims you know personally are not fundamentalist. Wouldn't you agree?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

255. Well, I am not dialoguing with a Muslim, am I?

And, yes, fundamentalist Islam today is unique compared to Judaism or Christianity in its treatment of women.

Neither Judaism (of today) nor Christianity allows men to take multiple wives. Any religion that allows for multiple wives without the current wife's consent will automatically be more misogynist. Period. If you can't see that, it's because you don't want to.

Have a good day.

[mhatrw]

259. Read about the history of polygamy in the world.

It is by no means a uniquely Muslim phenomenon.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

329. Absolutely not.

But which major world religion is bringing this misogynist crap is practicing male controlled polygamy today?

[el_bryanto]

335. Mormons do believe in the divinity and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ though.

Which I think would qualify them as Christians even if not traditional Christians.

Bryant

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

337. I have no skin in this game

There are about 5 foundational beliefs that separates out Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses (who don't even add another layer of scripture) from Christianity, although the main one I can think of right now is belief in the trinity, and specifically the character of the father and the son.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmology

[el_bryanto]

339. Fair enough; I am a Mormon and I consider myself a Christian

As I believe the key thing that makes a Christian is a believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the meaning of his Sacrifice - but I understand that others disagree.

Bryant

[FrodosPet]

267. Excerpts from Islam's holy texts

Qu'ran

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.190

002.190

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

002.191

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

002.216

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/005-qmt.php#005.033

005.033

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

005.038

As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.012

008.012

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

008.038

Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

008.039

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

008.060

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.005

009.005

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.014

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

009.029

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

009.123

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/017-qmt.php#017.016

017.016

When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.

Hadiths

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.177

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 182:
Narrated 'Ali:

When it was the day of the battle of Al-Ahzab (i.e. the clans), Allah's Apostle said, "O Allah! Fill their (i.e. the infidels') houses and graves with fire as they busied us so much that we did not perform the prayer (i.e. 'Asr) till the sun set."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php#019.4321

Book 019, Number 4321:

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php#019.4294

Book 019, Number 4294:

It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.

[mhatrw]

268. And the God of the Judeo-Christian Old Testament does not command genocide?

Really? The Bible/Torah is filled with equivalently indefensibly immoral nonsense.

[FrodosPet]

269. Yes it is

And it gets condemned frequently.

So why can't Islam be subject to the same criticism? What gives it special immunity from harsh analysis?

[mhatrw]

270. Nothing at all. But come on. The Old Testament/Torah are rife with the same crap.

So exactly what are you trying to prove? That most ancient scriptures in places advocate genocide, killing, war, pillaging, slavery, discrimination, polygamy, and a host of other morally heinous activities?

Why your Koran study class when any Bible study class is just as scandalous?

[FrodosPet]

271. Most of the Old Testament stuff is ignored in modern practice

The Qur'anic verses are still a active part of Islamic ideology and Sharia.

[Bluenorthwest]

280. It's the fact of the existance of 10 Islamic nations that use religious law as secular law and thus

oppress women and murder LGBT, flog writers and those who dare criticize religion. There are no counterpart nations doing those things and saying that is because they are Christian. This is the part you like to leave out. It's not about what some old trashy books say, it is about how we run our society today.
I look at the actions humans and their societies take, not at the books of excuses they have compiled and named religion.

[sibelian]

294. Nobody pays attention to HIS ugliness anymore. ALLAH's ugliness, on the other hand...

... has a WIDE audience.

[sibelian]

289. How is that relevant?

How does the US military's violent actions remain criticisable while those of Islamic terrorists are not?

[guillaumeb]

213. The only thing being implicated in terrorist attacks is the actor.

If John McManus attacks a church and kills an abortion provider, citing his Catholic faith as inspiration, who is to blame?
The Catholic Church?
John McManus?
Ireland?

[oberliner]

23. Being critical of Islam is discrimination?

Wow - that is quite a stunning thing to say.

[guillaumeb]

39. Being critical of Islam itself is discrimination.

Being critical of violent people who commit violent acts while justifying those acts as somehow mandated by Islam is not discrimination.

Agreed?

[oberliner]

42. Do you think being critical of Republicanism is discrimination?

I have to say that I do not agree with you here.

I do not see how being critical of an ideology is discriminatory.

If I treat people differently because of what they believe, then that would be discrimination.

But if I was to say that I find the values of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam to be abhorrent, then that is not discriminatory.

It is akin to saying that I find the values of Republicanism or Conservatism to be abhorrent (but I will still treat Republicans and conservatives the same as anyone else).

[guillaumeb]

48. There is more to this point.

Muslims are being treated differently in the US. The ridiculous outrage over admitting Syrian refugees into the country is based on a hatred for Muslims. So by your definition, this unequal treatment based on religion IS discrimination.

Muslims are also being subjected to harassment by law enforcement in many ways.

[oberliner]

52. That's a separate question, though

Mistreating Muslims is discriminatory.

Speaking critically about Islam is not.

[guillaumeb]

56. Can we refine that further to:

speaking critically about some beliefs/aspects of Islam?

If so, we are in agreement.

Good to see you outside of I/P Oberliner.

[trotsky]

71. Which beliefs or aspects are you going to approve for criticism?

What gives you the authority to declare that?

[guillaumeb]

211. What I said was:

speaking critically about some beliefs/aspects of Islam?

If so, we are in agreement.

So that obviously would include any aspect that one wishes to criticize. I thought that my position was obvious.

[trotsky]

217. Thank you for quoting the very words that indeed needed clarification.

See, as others have indicated on this thread, I'm not the only one who, when they read:

speaking critically about some beliefs/aspects of Islam

...came away thinking that means you think there are also SOME beliefs/aspects of Islam you think shouldn't be criticized.

[guillaumeb]

218. My belief is that all aspects of any belief system can be criticized, or analyzed, or rejected.

But a comment that makes a false equivalence should be challenged.

[oberliner]

123. I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making

Are you suggesting that there are some beliefs or aspects of Islam that we should not be allowed to speak critically about? If so, I can't agree with that.

I think the ideology known as Islam ought to be fair game for any and all criticisms just as other ideologies are.

People should feel free to say the same things about Islam that they might say about Christianity or Republicanism.

I don't think that just because an ideology is called a religion that makes it somehow exempt from scrutiny or criticism or that even people ought to be more sensitive about the way they criticize it.

If someone said that they were a Republican and that the Republican party platform is very important to them and that those are the principles around which their lives are structured, would you say that we ought not to be able to speak critically about the totality of Republicanism?

I understand that the situation with Islam is more complicated because there are those who have discriminated against people just for being Muslim and mistreated people because of how they looked and the like - but I still assert that such reprehensible behavior is separate from criticizing the ideology itself.

[smirkymonkey]

139. +1000

[guillaumeb]

219. Agreed O.

When you wrote,

I understand that the situation with Islam is more complicated because there are those who have discriminated against people just for being Muslim and mistreated people because of how they looked and the like - but I still assert that such reprehensible behavior is separate from criticizing the ideology itself.

there have been posters at Du this week who spoke about the desirability of not allowing Syrians to immigrate en masse because of the supposed danger to the US.

My response was to ask if the poster really thought that 10,000 Syrian refugees living in a country of 350,000,000 constitutes a threat? I received no response to that.

There are people who hate Muslims, Jews, people of a different color, sexual orientation, religion. That hate, and any actions motivated by that hate, are all equally disgusting.

[Bluenorthwest]

110. But you conflate Muslims with Islam, you say it is discrimination to criticize Islam, then you shift

to bias against Muslims. Islam teaches that gay people should be killed, some Muslims are gay. See how this goes? Your claim is that me and the gay Muslims can't criticize Islamic things but of course, straight Muslims can run counties that execute gay people in the name of Islam. Show me the equity in that.

Before us are two people. One is the executioner and the other the condemned heretic. Both are Muslims. One is also about to kill the other. Which of these two must not be criticized because of discrimination?

[sibelian]

298. Gay Muslims are LESS than Western Muslims, and Gay Westerners, apparently.

This is the only conclusion I can reach.

[sibelian]

293. Not, not agreed at all. Islam is a BELIEF struture, criticism of it is not discrimination

any more than criticism of Men's Rights Activism or Libertarianism or Solipsism or Creationism is discrimination.

This is amazing to me - AMAZING. How could you have arrived at the conclusion that THIS religion in particular is not to be criticised? I'm willing to bet you would see no other system of faith so keenly protected.

[guillaumeb]

330. I protect no faith. All can be criticized for theology and practice.

What I speak against is conflating terrorism and Islam . Or terrorism and any belief system.

[sibelian]

334. Okidoke then.

Thanks for your clarification.

[Yo_Mama]

61. NO, being critical of any religous idea is not necessarily discrimination.

Note that the original article is actually criticizing a form of Islam, not all Islam.

People on DU have every right to be critical of Protestant ideas and dogmas, Catholic ideas and dogmas, and Islamic ideas and dogmas.

I write that as a person of deep faith, and I don't write that in spite of my faith, I write that because of my faith.

There is NOTHING LEFT of religious freedom if there is not the societal freedom to debate religious ideas. That is why I am a fundamentalist First Amendment adherent.

This is a very old issue in American civil life, law and politics. Consider Reynolds v. United States:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States

What you are actually arguing for is theocracy rather than anti-discrimination. If an idea may not be debated in the public sphere, the democratic legislative process is destroyed.

We have done very well in this country in allowing people to follow their own consciences without destroying the ability of others to follow THEIR own consciences. When belief becomes action or law, it must be debateable in the public square. Otherwise, the Constitution itself is nullified.

In many branches of Islam, there are ideas which are very incompatible with our way of life. These ideas have political implications. Any Muslim who wishes to live in a western representational democracy will have to either adopt an Islam which allows this, or leave. There is a real conflict here for some Muslims. It is one we cannot solve for them.

What people here are saying is that the answer has to be "No" to some of those beliefs.

[Bluenorthwest]

111. Most excellent post.

nt

[guillaumeb]

212. Excellent points.

As I stated in a post here, I do not object to criticism of any faith, but blanket statements about a people, or about a particular faith, might be motivated by bias. And there have been many posts at DU that explicitly or implicitly criticize ALL Muslims, or All Syrians. And that, in my opinion, springs from bias.

[leftynyc]

75. If criticism is equal to discrimination in this case

Why isn't that the case for all those DUers that trash Christianity? Why is Islam the sacred cow? I can't speak for anyone else but your charges of Islamophobia - just like this article says - has lost all meaning and earns nothing more than a roll of the eyes from me.

[ericson00]

153. what it really demonstrates is the fault line of

people on the legitimate/true-liberal left who constructively criticize woes in America vs. people on the regressive/communistic left who instinctively criticize America for the world's woes (ie if America didn't support Israel and piss off Muslims, all would be OK) or (America's neo-colonialism is the reason for 3rd world poverty). Because America practices Christianity and many (but not all) of its modern adversaries and/or enemies practice Islam, the former is evil and the latter is inherently right, to these sick fucks.

[jonno99]

79. Criticism for the most part is is merely observation - not descrimination. Descrimination

involves either action or choice.

A simple definition of discrimination:
: the practice of unfairly treating a person or group of people differently from other people or groups of people
: the ability to recognize the difference between things that are of good quality and those that are not
: the ability to understand that one thing is different from another thing
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination

Having made that clear it should be understood that you discriminate when you decide to have a poor boy for lunch - rather than a big mac...

[guillaumeb]

254. My choice of a po'boy sandwich over a Big Mac is evidence of my discriminating palate.

So I must confess to having a discriminating palate. And you, which would you choose?

[katsy]

83. Trump RW nuttery is more in line with Islamic sensibilities

Racism, intolerance, fear of the other.... All attitudes enshrined in Islamic law. Misogyny, honor killings, killing of gays, intolerance of apostates and atheists. ALL RW values. Oops, Trump hasn't called for the execution of gays or atheists yet. My bad.

Calling out Islamic law for the shit it is isn't a phobia... It's a progressive value.

[Mosby]

125. Posters should know that you have been banned from the IP group

Because you would not stop posting articles from anti-Semitic web sites.

You have zero credibility on this topic.

[smirkymonkey]

140. Well, that explains a lot.

I thought i detected an underlying agenda with some of these posters. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", or something like that.

[leftynyc]

154. Wow

Thanks for the heads up.

[grossproffit]

175. Thanks for the heads up. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[stone space]

2. I can still remember looking out my office window...

...from the Math Department to see hundreds of Yahoos chanting "Iranians go home!" in front of the Administration Building.

I still remember the Ames restaurant with the sign posted, "Iranians not welcome here!"

I can still remember a friend, who was married to an Iranian, being attacked in a dormitory elevator by 5 guys, and suffering cuts and bruises and multiple broken ribs, just because she was married to an Iranian.

I don't care what you want to call it, but here in Iowa, it takes some ugly, ugly forms.

[ericson00]

5. the Democratic Party could've fixed that

by being the sane adults, and pointing out that one can criticize how Islam is often practiced without attacking Muslims' individual rights, as they do against the Christian right. But the Michael Moore/MoveOn crowd would go haywire.

[guillaumeb]

8. Ver well put. What is being posted here can be disguised, and sometimes disguised quite well,

but at heart it is fear of the other. And fear of the other is what the GOP sells.

[ericson00]

12. I have zero fear of others; hence why I hold views on Mexican immigration

that get me called "neo-liberal" around here. The difference being that Mexicans don't bring the views and sentiments that are too common in Muslim countries and societies; they integrate in a way Muslim immigrants to Europe don't, and an en masse Syrian refugee immigration would not.

[guillaumeb]

18. Your same views were also held by many nativists in the US,

and expressed by people who did not want southern Europeans to immigrate here. The Italians, Spanish, and Greeks were also accused of not sharing white, Northern European values. And you comment about en masse Syrian immigration is an interesting statement.

So you, like many in the GOP, feel that accepting 10,000 Syrian refugees into a country of 350,000,000 is a mass that will overwhelm western values? Amazing.

[Jim Beard]

59. I live in Texas and it does my heart good to see some of the Mexican immigrants assimilate

so well as you state, when they fly the Mexican flag. (Sarcasm)

[guillaumeb]

63. ericson00 made that statement, not me.

How about the fact that Texas was actually part of Mexico until the US stole the land?

I live in the Chicago area. On Polish Constitution day one can see many Polish flags being flown. Are they also guilty in your eyes?

[EX500rider]

126. "Texas was actually part of Mexico until the US stole the land?" Not really...

....1st the land was stolen from American Indian's by the Spanish.

Then during the revolutions and unrest of 1824 Texas declared independance from Mexico and became the Republic of Texas.
Texas didn't join the US till 1845, so the US stole nothing.

[guillaumeb]

214. I apologize for my unfamiliarity with this part of US history.

But if Texas undergoes another revolution, can it secede from the US?

[EX500rider]

281. It can certainly try....didn't work out so well last time in 1860's..

....plus Texas has the 2nd biggest GDP in the US, $1.6 trillion, about the size of Spain's.....so we'd rather not lose them.

[Jim Beard]

130. You don't see the flags weeks on end and UNDER the US flag

[guillaumeb]

215. One of my neighbors flies a Polish flag.

He is not alone. Many Southerners fly the Southern flag. What do you say about this? Is the flag not a flag of rebellion, of treason, of slavery?

[Yo_Mama]

62. Distaste for an idea, or rejection of it, is not fear of the other. It is in fact taking the other

seriously. The antithesis of what you claim.

[Spew]

137. Exactly.

You distilled the essence right there.

[Adsos Letter]

305. Yes. n/t

[PeteSelman]

4. Of course it isn't.

Islam is, at its very best, deeply misogynistic and homophobic. That's the norm, even for moderates.

However, as long as they follow our secular laws, they're free to believe as they like.

Criticizing their bad behavior is essential for liberals. Just as we would criticize any religion or any organization for acting like douches.

[KamaAina]

9. America's first out gay imam would probably argue the homophobic piece.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026712144

[Lizzie Poppet]

13. Whereas the thousands of homosexuals executed in Islamic nations wouldn't...

...because they can't.

[JudyM]

22. +1.

Res ipsa loquitur. (the thing speaks for itself).

[oberliner]

31. The first of how many?

Presumably, if Islam is not homophobic there should quite a few.

[trotsky]

74. That he is "America's first out gay imam" kind of settles the argument out of the gate. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

118. I doubt that he would, he is an honest man. Also he's an American who converted well into adulthood

having studied Islam in China among Uighur people. He was raised a Baptist. I'm sure he'd not argue that Baptists are not homophobic either.

It is probably worth nothing that this imam would be executed in 10 Islamic countries both for being gay and for teaching that it is acceptable to be gay in Islam. He's two dead men, an apostate and a homosexual.

[Odin2005]

150. Religion isn't the problem. Religion is used by societies to justify pre-existing culture norms.

Most Muslims live in developing countries and are at most just a generation or two from a traditional, pre-industrial way of life. Modern Western norms of sexual equality are a product of the Industrial Revolution and mass education.

[TheFrenchRazor]

169. precisely. "religion" is really the symptom, not the cause. nt

[KamaAina]

6. Dear ericson00: Being Critical of Islamist Jihadists Is Not The Same As Being Critical of Islam

any more than being critical of dominionist fundie whackjobs is the same as being critical of Christianity.

[ericson00]

11. but how about the sentiments with which non-jihadists might agree with

jihadists (like apostasy, gay and women's rights, abortion) which you can see in the [link:pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/|Pew survey] (not the Gaffney one)

[Orsino]

30. How about them?

Who is it, exactly, that you wish to critique? And what particular positions?

[ericson00]

37. the Pew polled ones:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ see the views on women, gays, apostasy, etc. which are far more intense (common) and extreme (in terms of punishment) than the vast majority of even con Repubs.

[pampango]

113. Nice poll. Shows Muslim support for democracy, religious freedom, women's right to divorce and

how she dresses. The fundamentalists get all the publicity but most Muslims think quite differently from the fundamentalists.

[ericson00]

187. how about honor killing, abortion, and gay rights

all things which have objective (not subjective) definitions...

[hifiguy]

307. The statistics speak for themselves.

[ericson00]

312. well said. Liberals who ignore them or excuse them

will help elect Donald Trump, and they need to be stopped.

[thereismore]

14. Islam is a political ideology, not a race. nt

[backscatter712]

87. Islam is a religion, and like all skydaddy religions, Islam is fucking stupid.

Hacking atheists to death with machetes because they said something they don't like.
Shooting little girls in the face for the crime of going to school.
Making women wear sacks over their bodies, lest a man see a salacious ankle or something.

Yeah I'll say it.

Islam needs to be criticized. Like every religion, it's got its zealots and fanatics who resort to violence to defend primitive mythological beliefs.

[thereismore]

106. Islam is all that ^^^. Plus a lot more, making it a hateful political ideology, IMO. nt

[backscatter712]

128. The big problem is they mash religion and political power together.

Here in the U.S., we're used to separation of church and state, which the Founding Fathers set up for very good reasons.

In Muslim countries, Islam IS the state. The religious leaders are also the political leaders. There is no firewall, they're welded together, so all the most batshit religious fucknuttery gets the force of law.

The result: Daesh. Or Iran. Or Saudi Arabia, the Daesh that made it. Hijab isn't just encouraged for women, it's REQUIRED BY LAW, and they throw you in jail, or worse if you're a woman and you don't do it. Prayer is required by law. Respect for Allah is required by law. In Saudi Arabia, they chop the heads off of atheists. You can't even get a beer legally in Saudi Arabia or other Muslim nations because the religious leaders, who are also the political leaders, think booze pisses off the skydaddy.

Religion mixed with state power makes for amazingly stupid and repressive regimes. Not to mention corrupt and profoundly immoral. Oh, you thought religious authority figures diddling little boys is limited to the Catholic Church? Who knows what goes on in the Muslim world? The imams and mullahs have legal authority as well as religious authority. Report child molestation? Who would you report to?

[thereismore]

129. Welded together. I like that expression. Very prescient.

The danger is that Islam can grow as a religion with all protections that tolerant people give to religious people. Then bam, all of a sudden, the ideology comes out. I don't have much hope that we can practically separate Islam as a religion from Islam as law. The latter has always surfaced in countries with a large fraction of Muslim population. Here in the US, so far so good.

[MadDAsHell]

17. We've kind of brought it on ourselves. The hand-wringing to "not offend" has become an insistence..

...on censoring ourselves and others. The calls for a "meaningful discussion on race" ring hollow because let's be honest, we have no plans to actually allow certain things to be said/discussed regarding race. As soon as there's a statistic or opinion we don't like we plan on immediately shouting that person down as a racist, and walking away insisting we can't waste our time arguing with a racist (conveniently excusing ourselves from actually having to state our own opinions on the subject).

Direct observation doesn't matter anymore because if you see something that might confirm a stereotype, it's racist.
Statistics don't matter anymore because if they seem to infer some truth to a stereotype, they're racist.

A few years ago I recall a Baltimore newspaper refraining from stating the race of an African-American man at-large for raping a 90-YEAR OLD. You've got a violent criminal at large, the public deserves information, and yet you tell them everything about a suspect BUT his race for fear of offending. How is that helping anyone?

Should we be discriminating in airport lines? Probably not.

But on the other hand should we be patting down the 90-year grandmother from Iowa just to be "fair"? Probably not.

I don't know what the solution is, but I do know the neocons LOVE watching us, to save face, be forced to eat our own when they say something stupid.

We are killing our party from the inside out.

[ericson00]

19. well said. It looks more like the GOP looked in '92 with Buchanan and Quayle

with the Culture Wars and Murphy Brown, respectively. It led to a 25 year presidential dominance from the opposing party. The reverse might happen if the extreme-left isn't tamed.

[smirkymonkey]

32. Bravo!

Well said!

[leftynyc]

96. +1000

EXTREMELY well put.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. Dear ericson00: Being Critical of Israel is Not Extremism.

Israeli policies and actions provide lots for criticism.

[ericson00]

40. please stop the thread hijacking

and Israel is the only Freedom House ranked "free" society in the entire Middle East (Tunisia is N. Africa, and only been "free" for one year; Israel for decades).

[Bernardo de La Paz]

44. I'm responding DIRECTLY to content in your post that you wrote and posted publicly.

You called for a purge of Democrats / leftists who are critical of Israel.

No such purge is needed or desirable.

For one thing, Israel's Apartheid against Palestinians including land grabs and illegal 'settlements' is fertile ground for criticism.

Palestine is not free as long as it is under Israel's thumb.

[ericson00]

53. Another protected class of people (Palestinians) from criticism;

as are Radical Muslims or ultra-religious ones in a way Radical Christians or ultra-religious ones are not. What the Dem party does NOT need.

Also, the mainstream America supports Israel by almost 4:1 ratio
<img width="352" height="686" src="" class="attachment-large" alt="Mideast sympathies race age education ideo religion" /></a>

Even liberal Dems go for Israel by 2:1.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

64. You believing Palestinians protected from criticism (not) does not excuse protecting Israel fr crit

You believing Palestinians are protected from criticism (they are not) does not mean that Israel needs to get a free pass from criticism, which is what you want when you write that Democrats should "clean house" of critics of Israel because it might offend some Jewish voters.

Stop binary thinking!

Even people who support Israel can be critical of Israel ! Duh. Quit the binary thinking that support means no criticism. It's not all-or-nothing.

Further, it is not a good idea to warp policies just because many or most voters want something. That's the ultimate sellout. It doesn't matter if Israel has support of 4:1 or 5:1 or 3:1 -- there are many aspects of Israeli policy and actions that should not be supported.

It doesn't matter if a majority of Americans think that the US should have a christian government: It would be a sellout to change Democratic Party policy to support that.

[Jim Beard]

69. Excellent post Bernardo !!!

[Depaysement]

159. Unless you are Palestinian

Under the Israeli jackboot.

[ericson00]

162. time to ask: why does the far-left have a Palestinian fetish?

what is so holy and great about these people??? Why are they so worthy in a way the Tibetans, the South Sudanese, the Copts, Yazidis, Kurds, you know, people who actually have it extremely bad/oppressed, are not?

The real answer: too many Muslims can't face that not every Islamic holy sight is under a Muslim majority nation. Or that the Middle East has one less Muslim nation that would exist in Israel's absence. After all, it was a Mufti who led the Palestinians in the 1930s and 1940s; Zionists were led by laiety. Who would really give a rats ass but for the dome of the stone?

[Depaysement]

165. They aren't

But American money doesn't help prop up the oppressors of most of those people. And there aren't 5 million displaced Copts, like there are 5 million Palestinians displaced by the pogrom called the Nakba.

Here's a flash: trying to play the antisemitic card is a damn weak hand to play.

[ericson00]

167. a lot of American money goes to China, Egypt, we did have trade relations with Sudan

for some time (and prob still do), a lot goes to Turkey (who never has done well by the Kurds).

And don't you ever compare the Eastern European pogroms (which involved mass murders) to a population exchange (the "Nakba). There are a lot of them in history, like India and Pakistan (and the US has consistently had good monetary/trade relations with both of them). You forgot the Jews who left Arab countries after REAL pograms in the late '40s.

Also, why do so many Europeans, whose governments don't have the kind of relationship America does with Israel, single Israel out? The "because America supports it" is just a smokescreen, or else Euro hatred of Israel wouldn't be nearly as strong; ditto non-Euro commies like Castro/Chavez.

Anti-Semitic card? Sorry, but the Jews have achieved and contributed to America since Haym Solomon's time during the revolution which made our country (assuming you're American) possible. The Jews (in America and Israel) have had scientific, culture, government, and business achievements, which most people would admire, unless of course you just hate capitalism so much. The Palestinians (and the Muslim world for the last 800 years), not so much. The Jews win. Jews have been loyal to the progressive and Democratic causes, as well as patriotic national ones too; people like you oughta be ashamed for taking them for granted.

[Depaysement]

176. "The Jews win"

I don't know what to say. Yours is an amazingly racist post. You've essentially argued Jewish exceptionalism. And you've conflated Jews and Israel, which are emphatically not the same thing.

No American government aid goes to China. A lot of American aid goes to Egypt because of Camp David - and who benefits from that? We bought off an Israeli enemy to ensure that there would not be an existential war that Israel would lose.

For obvious reasons, India-Pakistan is not exactly a shining example of a successful "population exchange," whatever that is. That is still one of the major world hot zones for a potential nuclear war.

The Nakba was a population exchange? That's just an absurd and ignorant reading of the history of post-mandatory Palestine. Palestinians were systematically driven out of Palestine as a matter of Israeli government policy. That's not a "population exchange."

That Jews were displaced and discriminated against in Arab countries I have no doubt. But as the old saw goes, two wrongs don't make a right.

One can't be a racist progressive. One has to choose to be one or the other.

[Jim Beard]

177. Thank you, good post

[ericson00]

182. the vast majority of Jews support Israel, and its the haters who conflate

with their "AIPAC/Israel controls American government," "AIPAC/Israel lobby runs the US media" and this is done outside and inside this country, commonplace among Euro far-right, far-left, and has been seen a lot in American extreme nutties too, or implied if not directly said.

My response to you re: exceptionalism; no. I just judge on the merits, and I never said the Jews were better than anyone, but progressives better damn well defend Jews at least as much as they defend Muslims, and certain show appropriate levels of gratitude for each group.

[smirkymonkey]

247. +1000

[Jim Beard]

66. I agree and I don't think you are thread hijacking. Some are overly sensitive.

[leftynyc]

97. More deflection

Just what I expected. Nothing to say about the piece posted?

[bdwker]

21. It is here.

http://www.dsausa.org/democratic_left

[Orsino]

25. Being critical of Islam is also a dog-whistle to racists and xenophobes...

...so it behooves us to look carefully at whoever feels the need to police a religion not his or her own.

[guillaumeb]

29. A whistle that many at DU can hear, apparently.

I can read the same hate speech here that I can listen to on Fox.

[Arugula Latte]

264. Also, you'd better not criticize Republicanism!

'Cuz doing so makes you a Hateful Bigot!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. I don't remember that sort of hand-wringing during the Catholic church sex abuse scandals.

In fact, people were quite delighted to call it a institutional culture issue.

[Orsino]

54. People who paid attention also recognized it as a conspiracy of silence...

...among a sub-subculture, and already condemned by the tenets of the religion in question.

While we're crusading for truth, let's not forget clarity.

[jeff47]

65. Those people did not blame it on Christianity as a whole, and then go on

to attack Methodists for it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

115. Plenty of those same voices want that as part of the pretext for destroying churches

through taxation and regulation.

[jeff47]

117. And plenty of those same voices are now demanding we treat Islam as a monolithic bloc

It isn't.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

120. No. Not really. They seem determined to overlook mob sexual assault in the name of PC-ism.

[oberliner]

36. Everyone should oppose any ideology they find to be anti-progressive values

Be it Islam, Christianity, Republicanism, Conservatism, etc.

[oberliner]

38. Being critical of Israel is also a dog-whistle to racists and xenophobes

It doesn't mean that one shouldn't do it.

[MadDAsHell]

107. The "everything my opponent says is a code/dog whistle" is cowardly politics, IMHO.

I personally know plenty of good people who respect candidates like Bernie and Trump, regardless of their positions, for NOT being a coward and worshipping the PC police, or the people basically saying something isn't even up for discussion (like socialism).

Heck, I know REPUBLICANS who are planning to vote for BERNIE because he's got guts. And I think we need guts and a willingness to push the envelope more than we need someone who says "the right things." We've tried that, it hasn't worked.

When I hear someone claiming everything the political opponent says is a code for something else, or a "dog whistle," what I'm really hearing is "Wow, I don't like that my opponents political statements are influencing voters; I better convince those voters he really means something else."

[sibelian]

340. So should we alert on posts about the Westboro Baptist church then?

As they are a religious organisation and attacks on them obviously come from bigots intolerant of Christianity?

Don't understand the "policing a religion not his or her own" thing, that would be me, I think, among others. Please feel free to look as carefully at me as you like! I put no philosophy on any kind of pedestal. Content is what concerns me.

What happens when protection of religion results in enabling abuse?

[Orsino]

342. If by "abuse" you mean saying nasty things...

...there are rules covering that practice. Alert as necessary.

[sibelian]

343. I was really hoping to make something of a deeper point there...

:-/ perhaps I have failed.

[403Forbidden]

27. As Long As You Hold The View That Being Critical of Israel is not Anti-Semetic...

...because if you don't, it's kind of hypocritical imho.

[Jim Beard]

78. I will be critical of the state of Israel, state of Iran, Poland etc anytime anywhere and

any religion anytime and anywhere but I will not condemn an entire RACE of people for the actions of a few. Its very simple.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. Subverting the needs of victims of sexual assault to fears of Islamophobia or RW extremism will

only serve to drive people into the arms of the Right because to the victims and their families, friends and neighbors the Right is the only side confronting what they see.

[smirkymonkey]

33. Good article - thanks for posting!

[Dems to Win]

41. If you're not critical of Islam, you're not a liberal

Misogyny is not a liberal value. 'Death to gays' is not a liberal value. 'Death to the Infidels' is not a liberal saying.

[smirkymonkey]

152. +1000

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

[sibelian]

284. Cultural relativism seems to mean "throw away liberal values" to some.

In its own way it's every bit as racist.

[TheFrenchRazor]

172. ouch... nt

[Rebkeh]

46. Bigotry

based on race, religion, gender are different facets of the same thing. Anti-Islamic sentiment is no different than racism in this context, or anti-Semitic sentiments for that matter.

[Arugula Latte]

144. So if disliking belief systems is bigotry, isn't anti-Republicanism bigotry, too?

If so, you're outing yourself as a bigot by posting on DU.

[sibelian]

291. Is opposing the death penalty "bigotry" against those who support it?

Is opposing a religion that propagates the invisibility and abuse of women and the execution of gay people "bigotry"?

Does my making the obvious correlation between Christian respect for religious authority and the invisibility of paedophile Catholic priests and thus leading me to a conclusion that CHRISTIANITY ITSELF, it's NATURE as a value-structure, is to blame for child abuse in the ranks of Catholicism make me bigoted against Christianity or is it just me pointing out that Christianity has got something wrong?

[Rebkeh]

295. Not this again

So, can I use the colonialism and conquest culture of white people to justify racism against EVERY white person, regardless of their individual behavior?

No.

It's moot anyway because ....

To be Muslim by choice is a constitutionally protected right.

There's nothing more to say.

[sibelian]

297. It is a constitutional right to own guns. Are gun control advocates BIGOTS?

You just ignored me completely.

I am not talking about BEING MUSLIM or whether it is a constitutional right, that is irrelevant, I am talking about the belief structure itself, WHAT they believe. It has nothing to do with racism at all, Islam is NOT a race.

WTF has anything I said got to do with the "colonialism and conquest culture of white people"?

[Matrosov]

47. Don't bother

I've been involved in many of these discussions. Time and time again, many progressives have no problem with anything negative anyone says about Christianity or Judaism. On the other hand, say anything negative about Islam - even if you're pointing out the treatment that women and members of the LGBT community have to endure in many Muslim countries - and those same progressives will unload on you about being racist, Islamophobic, a right-wing troll, and so forth.

I'm not upset people criticize Christianity and Judaism. I'm an unapologetic atheist and think that believing in imaginary beings in the sky is a waste of time. On the other hand, I can also recognize that there are no Christian or Jewish nations out there were hanging homosexuals and stoning women to death is perfectly acceptable, whereas there are a few Muslim nations where it is acceptable.

One of the most sickening things I've witnessed among progressives is how many people were upset about the events in Cologne, not because those people cared about the well-being of the women who were assaulted and raped, but because people worried about the effect these sexual assaults might have on Muslims in Europe. Apparently we're willing to throw women under the bus in favor of Islam.. on top of the fact that we usually have no problem criticizing any other religion.

[leftynyc]

103. I've been here a lot longer than you

and it's been like that on DU for a very long time. Only Islam gets a pass and charges of Islamophobe fly so much, it has lost all meaning to me. I simply don't care anymore and just say what I want to say.

[840high]

109. Thank you. Good post. Agree.

[smirkymonkey]

168. I know, I have never been more disappointed in so-called liberals than I have over this issue.

They have been willing to overlook the rights and well-being of gays, women, Jews and basically anyone who isn't muslim in the name of political correctness. It's revolting. Most of these people come from countries with absolutely abysmal human rights records, yet you find certain "liberals" defending them to the death. They aren't doing our cause any favors that's for sure. Most reasonable centrists are turned off by it and are drifting right because of it.

[Jim Beard]

178. We certainly don't need them flooding our country like Europe

Germany is going to have real problems as how Norway, Sweden and Denmark have seen and closed the borders.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

51. Freedom of expression? You wrote a discriminatory remark:

You wrote:

The big reasons I'm a Democrat is because I do believe in equal rights for gays, ethnic and religious minorities, freedom of expression (including clothes that don't cover one's hair).

(emphasis added)

Oh?

Freedom of expression for non-muslims covering their hair but not muslims?



http://www1.pictures.stylebistro.com/pc/Bret+Michaels+Hair+Accessories+Head+Scarf+9uI2dTA0y9el.jpg

[leftynyc]

57. WOW - Great article

This what I've been trying to say but don't have any talent to write this way. Last paragraph:

It is time that the left remember its principles, and stop castrating debate and free discourse. Perhaps it needs to look to real liberals in Muslim societies abroad, like Malala Yousafzai and the countless others who speak out against their theocracies, fearing for their lives daily. It is time for the left to put as much intellectual muscle into criticizing harmful religious ideas as it does into protecting the sensibilities of the everyday Muslim living in London.

It really does say it all. Thanks for posting.

[jeff47]

58. Is the Westboro Baptist Church the same as all of Christianity?

No? Huh...wonder if Islamic radicals are the same as all of Islam....

[Bluenorthwest]

114. Of course not, but at the same time their fellow Christians looked the other way as Westboro did

hateful pickets of hundreds of funerals over many years in all 50 States. They did that for far, far too long. Eventually Westboro started going after the funerals of non-gay people, and that got both the 'faith community' and various straight people to take notice and that is when the tide started to turn against Fred. The fact is the community they attacked was left to fend for ourselves for years. At our funerals.
So were they all the same as Fred? Nope. But were any of them actually so different that they openly opposed him? Eventually. When he went after straights.
The could have been much better neighbors to the LGBT community by dealing with the nasty being done in their name more expeditiously.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. Xenophobia and stereotypes.

Almost zero and places from where these refugees would come have it, nor do people who emigrate from those countries to Western ones tend to integrate.

Trans: They aren't really humans but robots programmed to rape, abuse, and destroy 'Murican Values.

[whatthehey]

68. Discrimination also means the ability to tell the difference

And when we see these views on choice



And these on equality for gays



And these on honor killings



I'm pretty darn pleased that I can discriminate between the acceptability of these beliefs, far from being held by just fundy extremists, and the opinions of non-Muslims.

Are ALL Muslims by definition anti-choice homophobic murder apologists? Certainly not, but far far far more of them are than you would typically see among the nonreligious, or even Christians. That tells me the ability to tell the difference, to discriminate, is quite important here.

[LittleBlue]

73. The regressive left isn't doing Muslims any favors by shielding Islam from criticism

Much of the Islamic world lives in poverty and terror because Islam is not allowed to be criticized. Without criticism, no reform is possible. Women will never have equal rights so long as Islam is off limits to criticism. They will forever remain chattel to their husbands, never able to contribute intellectually or be economically productive. Even the men will never reach their full potential, being sent to Islamic schools and devoting their minds to religious study.

Those on the left who cry "bigotry!" to snuff out any debate aren't helping Islam. They're ensuring its followers remain impoverished and powerless. Only by having their own Enlightenment can Islam survive. Or they will forever be failed theocratic states and/or client states of secular powers. Once the oil runs out, even the wealthier ones will revert to a third world existence.

It's sad that some cannot see this.

[trotsky]

77. What always shocks me is how willing some liberals are...

to toss the rights of women and non-straight individuals right out the window when it comes to "respecting" religion.

Doesn't seem that much different than the conservatives behind the Hobby Lobby case to me. Religious beliefs trump human rights. Very sad to see that cheered on the left.

[LittleBlue]

84. Good point. The right does it to appease their angry god.

The regressive left does it to appease their ideological golden calf. Ultimately, as you say, even women and LGBT are thrown under the bus for this madness.

One cannot support the rights of women and LGBT while simultaneously tolerating cultures that oppress and murder them.

[The2ndWheel]

94. I'm not sure if it's that

Does anyone on the left defend Christianity over human rights? Maybe some, but I doubt many do.

In a case like this, I would say it's more about a mindset of anything white and/or western is wrong. Or wronger, for lack of a better word. If that's the foundation of every argument, and it seems to be the foundation of many arguments, then it's tough to side with anything in Europe that seems to be White with a capital W.

That's the issue with any abstract human political leaning. Sometimes the reality of a situation doesn't fit perfectly with what you have in your head, and it's difficult to change the way you think. It happens to everyone. There's no perfectly logical human being that sits at the center of the political sphere. It happens to the right as much as it happens to the left. We all think we know the truth, whatever that may be. We all want there to be an objective reality where everything is the way it should be. We all really, really, really, really want that to actually exist.

[trotsky]

99. "Does anyone on the left defend Christianity over human rights?"

Yup. Catholics are the most notable ones. Praising the pope for his words about poverty, but not a mention of how access to birth control is one of the best ways to fight it.

The problem here is religion being treated as an idea that is more special than any other. So special that it cannot be criticized, and certainly never ever mocked or insulted.

[The2ndWheel]

102. Fair enough

But that's what I mean. It's all subjective. Human rights are another idea that some people treat more special than any other, yet it doesn't actually exist anywhere outside of our imaginations either.

[trotsky]

105. So your claim would be that human rights are just another kind of religious belief? n/t

[The2ndWheel]

112. Like our concept of time, it doesn't exist somewhere out there

2:45pm, January 14th, 2016, none of that exists anywhere. Human rights are not a thing. They exist nowhere but in our minds.

You may have a right to life, but someone can still kill you.

[trotsky]

116. Well no, of course not.

But I think that's a different subject altogether.

The reasoning you're attempting to promote reminds me of the argument that being tolerant means you have to tolerate intolerance.

[The2ndWheel]

121. It's all subjective is what I'm saying

Yeah, if you don't tolerate intolerance, then you're intolerant of intolerance, which by definition would mean you're intolerant to some degree. Which is fine, but I would say it's just another example of how our search for some universal objectivity falls short of its goal. We all pick and choose what suits us. We write laws in an attempt to stop this or that from happening, but this or that still happens.

Good, bad, right, wrong, they're just words. Words we created to justify and rationalize whatever it is that we humans do.

[trotsky]

131. You should read this:

http://archives.politicususa.com/2011/11/09/tolerating-intolerance-bigotry.html

[The2ndWheel]

204. None of that changes anything about rights only existing in the human mind

The classic argument goes, “Your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins.” This is a nice, plain-language way of saying that no human being has the right to cause harm to another.

And from where does that right originate? Does it exist independent of human thought? Does a zebra have a right not to be hunted by a lion? Does a lion have a right to eat? The answer to both would be no, because the concept of rights don't exist anywhere in physical reality.

Refusing to tolerate bigotry, however, is not a limitation of rights but a consequence of actions. Bigotry is a choice, a behavior, a deliberate decision to impose your prerogatives on others without their consent.

And you say, “But you’re doing the same thing!” It’s not the same thing. Opposing bigotry is decent, humane, loving, productive, and a positive and preservative step for the species. Being a bigot isn’t. There is no argument in favor of bigotry that doesn’t rely on lies or dishonest interpretation of facts.

All of those things are subjective. The definition of bigotry doesn't contain anything about being decent, humane, loving, productive, etc.

But in the more practical sense, you don’t have those rights – Not if you want to work, or be a landlord, or be an employer. Not only don’t you have them, you shouldn’t have them – they are in fact not rights at all, but impositions of privilege.

Shouldn't, should, good, bad, right, wrong, all concepts that come from our abstract imagination.

[trotsky]

205. I'll tell you again, that's a different subject.

An interesting topic to be sure, but a red herring for this discussion.

[smirkymonkey]

171. +1000

[ericson00]

173. +10000

n/t

[sibelian]

283. Exactly so. Allowing any religion to exert life-threatening force over a populace

is just asking for trouble.

A lot of the calls for tolerance of Islam come from people who want to treat the denizens of the ME as if they are already steeped in Western values and have chosen Islam as if it is a Westernised commodity philosophy like all the religions have become in the West - Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism etc are all freely chosen by their followers in the West without consequence or disruption to Western political or civilised values, this is not the case for Islam in the ME - Islam is the default religion and there is no particular separation of Mosque and State. Thus it is silly to treat the denizens of the ME as culturally aware, well-educated philosophers who "choose" Islam from a variety of "options". It's also very silly to expect ME followers of Islam to behave as if any religion or religious follower outside the ME is to be taken seriously. Islam is a hegemonising swarm, it doesn't care about multiculturalism.

I've been having these arguments with people for decades. Years and years ago Western tolerance was supposed to reveal itself to Islam and its followers as preferable in the expectation that Islam would come up with a cuddly Westernised version of itself. It hasn't. Why? Because it's already ideologically immunised against that process. Islam is supposed to be the last word of God, it begins with the assumption that it will come under attack from other philosophies and this is addressed in the Koran. It stands out from other religions in this respect. It has no intention of cooperating with anyone.

The regressive left has no interest in any of this. The regressive left is using Muslims as pawns in a game of virtue signalling.

[LittleBlue]

300. You've just broken down regressive attitudes in two paragraphs

Might have to steal some of those in the future

[hifiguy]

308. A truly wonderful post.

Thanks for this!

And that last paragraph is purest gold.

[mhatrw]

322. Their belief system is uniquely EVIL, so our virtuous belief system must murder them all.

It would be incalculably regressive to suggest otherwise. We have no choice but to murder all those Muslim antimulticulturalists who have so intransigently inoculated themselves against our tolerant and cooperative value system.

[sibelian]

336. Sigh. I don't understand why you're insisting on this.

Clearly murdering large numbers of blameless Muslims is WRONG. And, er, yes, our standards for treating women, whilst by no means perfect and laudable are BETTER. There, I've said it. Happy? I'm a bigot now, am I , for thinking women should be allowed to drive? I don't think I am. I don't think it's about me. I think it's about women.

I think you're confusing two completely separate issues here. YES, unthinking bigotry against Muslims in general is wrong, NO, it is NOT bigotry to accurately identify societal tendencies within Islam or Islamic nations.

And, yes, they HAVE inoculated themselves against certain aspects of Western liberalism. (They have their own cooperative value system, incidentally, one of five pillars of Islam is alms for the poor. They also ban usury. Progressive and socially just as it gets, so, there you go, I am well aware that they also do Nice Things).

Let's do a comparison... You know that story everyone keeps going back and forth on where the good cops protect the bad ones by not speaking out? Sound familiar? That's a structural problem in police culture. If I identify it as such, if I say it's a problem in policing, the observation does NOT make me "bigoted" against the police...

[mhatrw]

348. So what is your solution? To highlight how and why "our" value system is so superior to "theirs"?

Do you think that will be very helpful, especially considering how many Muslims we have needlessly murdered over the years?

You have obviously been campaigning hard for liberals to recognize the uniquely evil nature of Islam for decades. OK, I recognize that Muslim nations are uniquely theocratic and that theocracy is bad. I also recognize that most Western nations are far more enlightened about the rights of women and LBGT individuals and that is good for Western nations and bad for Muslim nations.

What now? What do you propose we all do now that we all recognize this? Have two minute hate Islam sessions every week?

[sibelian]

357. I get it, believe me, OBVIOUSLY it's patronising, but if we don't openly state what we value

How can we truly claim to VALUE it?

[HickFromTheTick]

80. Sheer mass hypnosis...

Religion is evil hypocrisy, suitable only for mind control and power mongering. About time for mankind to stop relying on ancient fantasy to apologize for our evil deeds and grow the fuck up. Nothing to show for 10,000 years of petty and misguided religious bickering except a trail of blood and hatred.

[katsy]

98. +1000

Welcome to DU and I totally agree with you.

[Ed Suspicious]

81. Nope. Just bigotry.

[Arugula Latte]

145. So if I'm critical of Islam and Christianity's complete marginalization of women (to put it nicely)

that makes me a bigot?

Fuck that.

Belief systems are fair game. Religious and supernatural beliefs based on zero evidence are not deserving of my respect. The only thing I respect is peoples' right to believe in this nonsense.

[Ed Suspicious]

148. Nope. I wasn't talking about that but there really is no way for you to know that based on my post.

I was talking about the Bill Maher sort of criticism of Islam.

[Bluenorthwest]

278. But Maher is critical of the treatment of women and LGBT while you seem to say that if we

dare to object to being defined as worthy of oppression and death we are bigots. Do you feel that LGBT are always wrong to speak up for our own rights and equal standing to your precious straights? Do we have no right at all to defend out community against attack?
Do you have a list of rules by which those of us inferior to you must abide? What are the punishments if we transgress your commands?

[Ed Suspicious]

282. Oh, piss off.

[4dsc]

85. no one ever said it was

so what's the beef here?

[mhatrw]

90. Dear Racists, discrimination based on religious beliefs is un-American.

Just as with Christianity, it's not the religion; it's the extremism.

[whatthehey]

93. Except as #68 shows

It's not just the extreme parts of Islam that are the problem. MOST, by far, Muslims hoid opinions that re objectionable to any person who cares about equality and basic human decency.

[mhatrw]

101. And most people in the South used to be in favor of slavery.

And most Americans were in favor of Japanese Internments Camps, dropping two atomic bombs, and murdering tens of thousands of Iraqis based on BushCo's lies.

Fukc your charts. We all know the problem is not Islam. The problem is fundamentalism and extremism, of which Islam has a huge problem stoked by the British-US-Saudi-Wahhabi alliance.

[whatthehey]

104. They are not "my" "fukc"ing charts. They are the opinions of fucking Muslims

And they are vile and antithetical to human decency and if you can't admit that then you are the problem too. When Muslims change their opinions like most - not all sadly - people in the South did about slavery then they won't be a problem any more then will they? But they ARE now, and so are their quislings who are too scared to call them on it.

[mhatrw]

119. I notice you ignored the 80% of Americans who just supported killing tens

of thousands of Iraqis based on BushCo's lies.

Why did Americans support these unjustifiable murders?

Could it be that most already think all Muslims are evil, as you do? Could it be that such bigotry is unhelpful?

Yes, Islamic bigotry toward women and homosexuals is obviously bad. But you cannot fight bigotry and intolerance with bigotry, intolerance and murder.

[Dretownblues]

244. Thank you

It seems many forget the problems we still face in America, from sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia. We have improved quite a bit, but we are still not great on any of these issues. Also I see no mention of China and their horrible human rights record, the predominantly Christian Uganda and their current fight to make homosexuality punishable by death, and countless others. I have not seen a single thing about this on this site or in the MSM, only about Muslim contries.

[mhatrw]

253. Because Muslims are the MIC's enemy du jour

[pampango]

100. "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism" but racists (GOP) love to criticize OTHERS like Muslims.

It is certainly possible to be critical of Islam (or Christianity or Hinduism or any other) as a religion without whipping up RW hysteria against human beings who are Muslim (or Christians or Hindus or any other religion).

Muslims are not robots who follow every aspect of their religion that we may not like. They are people who are, like most people, mostly good.

[karynnj]

108. The synagogue that I belong to issued a statement against Islamaphoia

https://www.facebook.com/jewishcommunitiesofvermont/posts/558225584332198

Note that it was UNANIMOUSLY endorsed by the board.

As to "Israel Haters", please give a few examples of either Democratic elected officials or party officials that you consider Israel haters. You sound like the Jewish Republicans -- or Elliot Abrahms here.

Me I think that both Obama and Kerry are not just better people but are setting a better course than Netanyahu!

[Uponthegears]

122. 1000+

'nuff said.

[ericson00]

133. sooner or later, elected officials emulate their constituencies

and given that, hence why the nutties on the far-left need to be disavowed. Look at the Tea Party, or how Trump is winning.

[karynnj]

135. I think you responded in the wrong place

I gave you proof that the largest synagogue in the state unanimously took a position that is the complete opposite of yours. Not to mention - it was positively received by the rest of the religious community.

We need peace -- not fear.

[Dems to Win]

136. I read the statement at your link

I have a lot of respect for the many thoughtful posts you've written, especially about John Kerry. I respect the people who wrote the statement and their good intentions, but truthfully, some of it struck me as asking everyone to join in a game of Let's Pretend.

"We must name religious and national triumphalism for what it is: a betrayal of the central message of all true religion, specifically, that each one of us is created in the image of God, that each one of us is unique, and we are all equal."

But the central message of Islam is not that 'we are all equal.' In Islam, women's testimony counts for half that of a man's in court. There are legion of other examples how Islam does not consider women equal to men.

How shall liberals be tolerant of intolerance? Do I, as a woman, respect Islam even though I know Islam does not respect me?

I have a very low opinion of all the Abrahamic faiths, though I have great respect for much of the charity work done by many good people of faith (I send money to Catholic Charities, since they are the people in my area who help homeless families). I don't respect the cruel, capricious, misogynistic god they worship. A just, moral god would have turned Lot into a pillar of salt for offering his two virgin daughters to a mob to be raped. I support Lot's wife.

Women in Judaism and Christianity have worked long and hard to be recognized as equal human beings in at least some houses of worship. For centuries, the Catholic church debated whether women have souls. Martin Luther said of women: "Let her die in childbirth. That is all she is here for."

In order to practice a version of Christianity or Judaism that recognizes women as equal human beings, a large swath of the religions' holy books must be ignored.

Sadly, Islamic women are far behind in being viewed as equal human beings. Given the insistence that every word of the Koran is the infallible word of Allah, I'm hard pressed to see how it will be accomplished, though I know that there are a very few women in Islam, almost all in the West, who are trying.

To issue a statement that all true religions offer the message that we are all equal seems to be ignoring the reality of the religion they are defending, in my feminist view. And some more orthodox versions of the religion they are practicing, as well.

I imagine that my DU posts would be called 'Islamophobic vitriol' by the authors of the statement. I've posted a lot recently about the mass sexual assaults in Cologne. Women throughout Europe are now afraid of 'taharrush gamea,' the rape game, brought to Germany by Arab Muslim men. Brought to Europe by men who've been taught by their religion, their culture, that infidel women are trash that can be abused at will.

I m outraged that European women are now being told it's not safe to go out alone at night, it's no longer safe to use the trains at night. European women are being told to stay home so that Arab Muslim men can roam the streets of European cities.

I believe that cultures that teach young children that boys and girls, men and women, are equal, are better than cultures and religions that teach children that women are either chattel or whores. Is that "religious and national triumphalism"? If it is, I'm guilty.

[karynnj]

138. Many of the people involved have a lot of expertise on the issue

including the rabbis who asked to sign it as well. They both have been involved in interfaith efforts for decades.

[closeupready]

124. 115 replies, 13 recs? Speaks for itself.

Good on DU.

[sonofspy777]

132. Actually it is

Islam wants nothing to do with the jihadists.

[romanic]

134. K&R to this article

We have to stop treating Islam like a sacred cow. Talking about jihadis, the treatment of women and gay people, and the rampant theocracy seen in Islamic countries =/= islamphobia or racism.

I don't understand why people here are giving the OP a hard time.

[Odin2005]

142. Bullshit, Muslims are singled out for problems that are not unique to the Muslim World.

Muslims are not any more misogynistic and patriarchal than any other country in the developing world. There are many places in India, Africa, and South America where the sexually harassement of women is normal and rape is common.

For over a millennium Islam has been the West's special boogeyman, the object on which Westerners project all the things in society we hate. During the Crusades Muslims were stereotyped as decadent, debauched homosexuals, today they are stereotyped as being uniquely misogynistic. A lot of the things Muslims are slammed for are NOT unique to Muslims, and so singling out Muslims for these things is a form of bigotry. Those "kill the gays" preachers in Uganda are not Muslims. the perpetrators of gang rapes in India are not Muslims.

[leftynyc]

149. You consider Iran a

developing country? Leaving that headshaking assertion aside and please do correct me if I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like we can't call out Muslim countries on misogyny because other countries are also misogynist. There is plenty of condemnation when horror stories for women happen in any of the places you mentioned. But here you are, proving this writer and Bill Maher right - for some reason you want to give Islamic attitudes about woman a pass.

[Odin2005]

155. I am NOT saying that the Islamic world should be immune to criticism.

I'm saying people need to quit treating like the Islamic world is uniquely terrible when it comes to women's rights.

And Bill Maher is an asshole and I could care less what he thinks, and I am disgusted that I ever listened to him and that Imperialist turd Sam Harris back in my "LOL-so-edgy" Atheist Asshole days.

[leftynyc]

158. Well, I like Maher

and Harris. Everything they say? No but I like listening to what they have to say. Nobody is claiming misogyny is unique to Islam, where on earth did you ever get that idea? Maybe you're hearing so much about it in the Islamic world these days because there is plenty of events to talk about.

[Odin2005]

164. I suggest reading "Holy War" by Karen Armstrong.

Using Islam as a boogeyman is rooted deep in the Western collective psyche, and the Islamic World tends to get uniquely singled out because of this. People may not be explicitly saying that Muslims are uniquely bad, but the underlying sentiment is there.

[ronnie624]

194. +1

All of your posts here are excellent.

[Odin2005]

201. Thanks!

[ericson00]

151. bahahahahah

n/t

[Odin2005]

156. So you have nothing, got it.

[ericson00]

160. Islamic World =/= Africa, in terms of economics, society

so the faux attempt to project Walter Rodney onto the ME is bullshit. And what are you talking about with this:

During the Crusades Muslims were stereotyped as decadent, debauched homosexuals,

???

You tell me where else in the world today that has states who stone/execute women for adultery; what other region has large amounts of countries that require several male witnesses to prove a rape, what other regions have states that hang gays? Uganda? You mean one, if not the only country in the non-Muslim world like that? Uhhh THATS WHY PEOPLE KNOW THEM, because the rest of the countries like that (they're nearly all Muslim countries) everyone figures as much.

Even for the incidents in India, you don't have Indians going around the world blowing themselves up for Vishnu or wearing traditional clothings in their new societies, trying to spread it. Hindus don't proselytize like Islam does. India with the women situation is also like uganda in that people know and bother because its not Muslim. Nor is mysogony codified in Indian law on the basis of Vishnu. And even then, Freedom House still ranks India as free, unlike the ultra majority of Muslim countries.

[davidn3600]

186. What you are doing is ignoring the Muslim world's problems

The misogyny and homophobia is worse in the Muslim world than it is in the western world. If you can't even see that then you are being intentionally ignorant.

What country in the west stones women for adultery? What western Christian country executes people for being homosexual? Women can't even drive a car in Saudi Arabia!

I mean I know we got equality issues too. But when you make the comparisons between the west and the Muslim world, it is obvious the Muslim world has a far bigger problem.

[Arugula Latte]

143. Yep. Belief systems are not people.

A lot of DUers don't seem to get this.

If disliking Islam or Christianity is bigotry, then so is disliking Republicanism.

[hunter]

146. The violent moron wings of all religions and ideologies suck.

Any god or ideology that demands violence against people who are just peacefully going about their own business is pretty damned pathetic.

I'd not worship or respect any god or human who'd ask me to kill in his name.

[Blue_Tires]

179. And to that I would add -- Dear Liberals:

Last edited Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:43 PM - Edit history (1)

When some terrorist group or government in the Middle East does something really despicable, please *STOP* with the universal knee-jerk one-line refrain of "Yeah, but America invaded Iraq!/bombed Syria!/droned a wedding!/shelled a hospital!/etc."

1. It's old, trite and I'm tired of seeing it daily -- Step your games up

2. It's intellectually bankrupt 'whataboutism'

3. It only serves to cheapen the lives lost and creates this one-dimensional discourse where no DUer is allowed to ever speak out or criticize something because at some point in time his or her respective government killed somebody

4. It's an indirect approval or justification of said act, and "Yeah, but America--" doesn't magically negate or cancel out the story we're discussing at the moment

5. You look like a hypocrite when terrorism occurs in certain places that aren't related to some backlash against U.S. foreign policy (i.e., Nigeria), and because you know your "Yeah, but America--" boilerplate doesn't apply, you let those threads drop off the page without a peep even though you're a mainstay on *all* the other ME threads

[ericson00]

180. beautiful. +100000

perfectly said. I really hope HRC, Sanders, and the DNC and their staffs are seeing this thread.

[Democat]

188. There are many DUers who blame America, Bush, or Obama

For everything wrong in the world.

[mhatrw]

222. Yeah, don't dare recognize any commonalities between your tribe and their tribe!

Just admit The Other is uniquely evil! Just admit it! They are all hateful, and they all deserve to die! Then sign yourself up to kill to shitload of them for being so damn uniquely evil as a group!

That is the only rational way to honor the victims of warfare, genocide, murder, terror, and bigotry everywhere!

[smirkymonkey]

250. Hyperbole much?

You really need to calm down, you're going to give yourself a stroke or something.

[sibelian]

318. David and Goliath fallacy... Described HERE:

https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/the-david-and-goliath-fallacy/

[Marr]

226. It also strikes me as an oddly colonial, infantilization of the Muslim world.

No matter what they do, they're only responding to our actions. They have no real thoughts or motivations of their own, and can only ever react to our words and deeds. Their only identity is what they think of us.

[mhatrw]

242. "they" are no more a monolith than "we" are. nt

[Adsos Letter]

306. I had a college professor, many years ago...

...who pointed out this very thing, almost in the words you used (as I remember it).

It was something of a revelation to me at the time, and it is worth remembering.

[sibelian]

338. Exactly.

A guilt complex is no more functional as a political process than a superiority complex.

[smirkymonkey]

249. Thank YOU!

It's about time somebody called them out. I am so tired of the same old lame arguments. Actually, they aren't even arguments, it's nothing more than deflection. They don't want to have an honest discussion about the fact that their pet religion isn't all about rainbows and puppy dogs, so they point the finger back.

It's cowardly and hypocritical.

[Democat]

189. Waiting for "Christianophobia" complaints on DU

Openly hating Christians for any reason is common here. Many also criticize Israel for anything they do.

[arthritisR_US]

192. Not all terrorists are Muslims but all terrorists are radical nut jobs. nt

[nilesobek]

193. The first time I went to NY

my head was filled with ideas about NY, mostly expressed in the media. What I found out didn't fit the stereotypes.

It was easy for me, being from out West, to dismiss any idea of a real extremist threat against me in any way. While I was there I never felt threatened and walked around with impunity. Seems like the locals don't feel the same.

[betterdemsonly]

195. You're not criticizing Islam

your smearing everyone that comes from a muslim country, most perversly the Syrians who are actually victims of Isis. I don't care whether the dippy jury let you off, this is a racist thread which is a violation of tos. This is turning into the Trump Board. It is shameful this shit is allowed, but racists have gamed the juries and mirt.

God I wish a liberal journalist witnessing this would callout and embarrass the board.

Nobodies non-American ancestors came from countries that were heaven or they wouldn't friggen be here.

[Quantess]

196. Racist? Which race? (no text)

[ericson00]

199. tell me why so many people with 10k posts+

are in accord with my thread of its so "racist."

Also, ISLAM IS NOT A RACE, ETHNICITY, OR ETHNORELIGIOUS GROUP.

[Quantess]

203. Another thing, Muslims come in all skin colors.

The only semi-thoughtful response from people who scream "racism", is that islamophobia is more prevalent because most muslims are middle-eastern and not lily-white. They argue that if most muslims were lily-white, anglo-saxon in appearance, there would be less islamophobia.

That possibly holds some truth, but that still does not make muslim a "race" nor does it mean cultural clashes can be called "racism".

[ericson00]

263. well said, its a perfect summation of why this discussion is so difficult

nt/

[betterdemsonly]

206. What race are Jewish people?

What race are the Mexicans Donald Trump accused of all being rapists?

The bible treats women and gays like livin shit too? Stones, adulteresses(only the women), fornicators(only women fornicators), gays, and immodest women. Advocates polygamy but only for men. Treats women like property. Says they should obey their husbands and fathers and accords their testimony in court less status than a man. Advocates killing disobedient children. Advocates child sacrifice if it is what God wants. Advocates genocide against tribes living in the holy land if they are in the way of God's chosen, but doesn't explain why God put those people there to begin with. The bible is the model for the Koran. Let's ban all Christians and Jewish people from the USA. Let's ban anyone coming from a Christian or Jewish country.

There are alot of sneaky trolls on this board.

[ericson00]

207. Jewry is an ethnoreligion

in case you don't know what that is.

I don't give a shit about what the bible says. Christianity-practicing society at large has few to no states in which gays are tossed off buildings, women are forced into veils/hijabs, etc.

Islam is not a race, ethnicity, or ethnoreligion.

[betterdemsonly]

208. So what. Jews still aren't a race so people who don't like them aren't racist by your standard.

and christians historically did those things and still do in undeveloped countries like Uganda, mostly at the behest of American christians. America never did because it was never officially Christian. It is a secular country with a no establishment clause. Europe doesn't do it anymore because Europeans have become secular, but historically those countries burnt accused witches and gays at the stake. The word faggot comes from bundle of wood Europeans used to burn them. Colonial Americans hung accused witches. The American revolution hadn't happened yet, so they were officially Christian.

In Israel, the haredi(most conservative of the Jewish groups) won't 'allow women at the wailing wall, won't allow them to drive, and throw rocks at women who aren't dressed right in accordance with the bible.

[ericson00]

209. ONLY hating a race, ethnicity, or ethnoreligion (like Jews and Yazidis) IS racism

Islam is none of those.

not to mention, Haredim make up 1 in 6 Jews in Israel; the Israel's society at large and actions in practice are just not comparable to Islamic societies, no matter how those who seek to mischaracterize Israel (anti-Semites) try to spin it. Israel has gay rights, non-veiled female political, business, and cultural leaders.

I don't give a shit about what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago. We have to live in today and the future, not the past, so no, the Crusades or Salem mean jack.

Also, given how Jews have contributed to America, if you don't like Jews, you're un-American.

[betterdemsonly]

210. You aren't being critical of Islam, and discrimination against religious groups is illegal too.

You are saying we should not allow people from muslim countries in the United States based on the unsubstantiated bigoted claim that they don't assimilate. 200 years ago many European countries still practiced discrimination against gays and women, including witch and faggot killing, yet we allowed immigration from those countries. To not do so is bigoted. Bigotry against religious groups is still against TOS, and juries that won't enforce rules against discrimination against people from muslim countries, while they do if it is against other groups, are exposing the fact that they are right wing trolls that don't belong here. Also Israel doesn't allow anyone to marry outside of orthodox Judaism, so women there can't divorce their husbands, without their husbands permission, and Israel lets the religious segregate buses, based on both gender and religion.

[sibelian]

287. This is UTTERLY disingenuous

1. Your example of European countries that discriminated against gay people and women "200 years ago" were being assimilated into a country that had the same attitude towards gays and women anyway, it's nonsense to compare immigration from 2 centuries ago to immigration today.

2. Bigotry is the attribution of characteristics that are UNEVIDENCED. The rank misogyny and homophobia of Islamic nations is EVIDENCED. The idea that our disgust with Islam's misogyny and homophobia is a kind of bigotry is idiotic, it makes exactly as much sense as a Christian telling me, a gay man, that I'm intolerant of HIM and , gasp, secretly a bigot, if I find his homophobia not to my liking! Islamic homophobia and misogyny is not the same as Christian homophobia and misogyny, it's worse, and it doesn't become magically wholesome just because the religion propagating it is the default in a nation bombed by George Bush, nor does anyone's refusal to accept it become "racist" because the followers of that religion are largely of a certain race. Demonstrably, these people are grotesquely illiberal, and it's meaningless to pretend it's "just some of them". It is that illiberality which is the subject of our objection, and not their race. European countries are full of Muslim immigrants who have assimilated without any difficulty at all, why do you think that is? It's not because of "education". It's because the nations from which these Muslims emigrated were already at least partially secular. Inicidentally, were you aware that many of these integrated European Muslims are now very nervous indeed about the arrival of all these fresh-minted "refugee" citizens? They KNOW what's coming. It's not just ethnic white people complaining.

3. "Also Israel doesn't allow anyone to marry outside of orthodox Judaism, so women there can't divorce their husbands, without their husbands permission, and Israel lets the religious segregate buses, based on both gender and religion." RIDICULOUS, so Islam gets a Get out of Jail free card and Judaism doesn't - when was the last time Israelis surrounded women and groped them? Do you see any crowds of JEWS congregating in thousands, surrounding women and groping them? Where do you think that collective behaviour came from - why is it so distinct from Western misogyny and homophobia and what empowers YOU to pretend the obvious distinction between the two forms is invisible?

[betterdemsonly]

310. The original post called for not allowing immigration from muslim countries

That is discrimination against a group based national, and religious origin, which is unconstitutional, and the rest of your argument is just windbag strawman bullcrap. Get a real job!

[Quantess]

229. Make up your mind, betterdemsonly!

Are Jewish people of middle eastern origin a different race than muslims of middle eastern origin?

I'll give you a hint how to avoid trolls: Be honest with yourself!

[LittleBlue]

221. Here is why this criticism isn't based on racism

I'll admit that the vast majority of Muslims are brown or dark skinned. So let me concede the point right away that 99% of Muslims aren't light skinned. For the sake of this argument, let's call Muslims a nonwhite race.

You can either believe they're being singled out for their skin color or their practices. If you believe it's skin color, then why aren't Hindus also being singled out? Why aren't Buddhists? Why aren't Shintoists? 99% of those religions are comprised of nonwhite followers, a higher percentage than even Islam.

So why aren't those religions and cultures being singled out for what you believe is "racism"? Because they don't engage in insane religious practices like stoning women, executing gays, etc.

The criticism is mostly because of their practices, not their particular religion or skin color.

[mhatrw]

227. Yeah, Islamophobia has nothing to do with tribalism! Nothing at all.

Last edited Fri Jan 15, 2016, 05:53 PM - Edit history (1)

It's a wholly rational tribal hatred, based on the wholly rational belief that Islam is a uniquely evil belief system in the entire history of humanity.

Yeah, right.

Because, you know, Hitler, Stalin, Nicholas II, Mao Zedong, Toho, Leopold II, and Pol Pot were all closet Muslims.

[LittleBlue]

243. Can any criticism of Islamic culture or religion not be Islamophobia?

If so, how can we do it?

Feels like its critics are being charged less for an actual phobia than blasphemy.

[mhatrw]

258. Criticize away! But don't pretend that Islam is the most

evil belief system in the annals of human history, and uniquely evil compared to other belief systems all of which at one time or another have been used to justify discrimination, racism, slavery, war, murder, and genocide.

And stop pretending that anybody who does not buy into your bigotry is being an irrational zealot.

[LittleBlue]

260. Historically, it is not the most evil thing ever

Currently, it does appear to be by far and away the most violent, intolerant major religion. And unlike the other religions it seems to empowered at least a dozen theocracies, whereas the adherents of all the other major religions have discarded theocratic rule for mostly secular countries.

[mhatrw]

265. Theocracies suck. But who had the bright idea to invade and occupy secular Iraq?

Who funded the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan?

Who tried to topple secular Egyptian Muslim champion Nasser?

Who replaced secular Iranian champion Mohammad Mosaddegh with the hated Shah of Iran?

Who has made the Saudis their second most favored son in the Middle East after Israel? Who has helped the Sauds export fundamentalist Wahhabism around the globe?

If our US leaders want to encourage Islamic nations to be more secular and less theocratic, they sure have a strange way of going about this.

My take is that our leaders like to encourage divisions among various peoples because war is so profitable to them and because war solidifies their power. So first they do everything in their power to foment Islamic fundamentalism because they know they can always count on brainwashed fundy true believers to go to war against The Evil Other at the drop of a hat. Then they can sell your drumbeat meme that Islam is a uniquely evil belief system in order to brainwash Americans into $upporting returning fire with infinitely $uperior force because the Muslims they fund and support are so uniquely evil.

[sibelian]

299. They don't seem to be attempting that with BUDDHISM, do they?

Nor Taoism.

hmmm, why not?

The weakness has to be there in the first place in order for it to be exploited...

[mhatrw]

304. LOL. It's the exact SAME weakness that we Americans have!

America is home to 95 million of the less than 300 million Christian fundamentalists in the world.

Americans are just as, if not more likely, to go to war against The Evil Other as Muslims are. If not, how do you explain over 80% of Americans supporting the unjustifiable murder of tens of thousands of innocent secular Iraqis based on BushCo's litany of lies?

What uniquely evil belief system was responsible for that atrocity against humanity?

[sibelian]

316. ...meaning... WHAT?

That if you say "christian fundamentalist" loud and long enough Islam magically becomes a cuddly Western version of itself like the Church of England?

Why is it that whenever anyone brings up Islam's problems American liberals start jumping up and down and saying "we're just as nasty, you know"... no actually you're a lot less nasty.

As for uniquely evil... well. I don't currently know of any other religion enforcing death for apostasy, hanging gay men or demanding that women live under black sheets. Not even mean ol' Christianity.

Certainly you make a case for American xenophobia, what I'm saying is that Islamic xenophobia is just as, if not more than, powerful.

The uniquely evil belief system your last sentence references would be American Exceptionalism, in my view. I think it might time to start considering that there is also the perspective of Islamic Exceptionalism, fairly prevalent among the faithful who make the hajj.

I have a suggestion for you, which of course you may completely ignore if you wish, Youtube has a large number of videos from Syria. Perhaps they might be worth a look, and some comparison with the US might be in order, if you genuinely believe American aggression is somehow comparable with the way the wards in the Middle East are being fought, by all sides. I don't think the standard establishment liberal response to Islam is working.

[mhatrw]

319. But the standard American Exceptionalist response is winning Muslim hearts & minds everywhere!

Right?

First draw a map that ensures strife. Then make sure competing factions are well armed. Then bomb the shit out of them to create a power vacuum. Then arm and bomb the shit out of whatever faction emerges. Nothing nasty about evil that wears a snazzy uniform and only enforces death for desertion and extra judicial assassination.

I have no idea what "the standard establishment liberal response to Islam" is. However,
the standard establishment neoliberal response to Islam is definitely not working. Thus I would suggest a more enlightened and less murderous approach. I would suggest supporting relatively secular and more enlightened Muslim organizations and nations rather than actively fomenting and arming Wahhabist fighting sects across the globe. Wouldn't you agree?

[sibelian]

344. I would agree that the neoliberal position is stupid, yes...

... but I don't think treating EVERY reference to the obvious culture clash problem here as evidence of neoliberal thinking is terribly helpful either.

I see the geopolitical attitudes of the West and the socio-psychological attitudes of Islam as separate problems.

[mhatrw]

349. And what, other that my suggestions, would you advise as steps toward solving these problems?

Again, you have obviously been campaigning hard for liberals to recognize the uniquely evil nature of Islam for decades. OK, I recognize that Muslim nations are uniquely theocratic and that theocracy is bad. I also recognize that most Western nations are far more enlightened about the rights of women and LBGT individuals and that is good for Western nations and bad for Muslim nations.

What now? What do you propose we all do now that we all recognize this? Have two minute hate Islam sessions every week?

[sibelian]

354. ... (shrug)

Last edited Thu Jan 21, 2016, 12:34 PM - Edit history (2)

What we all do is one thing, but what THEY do is another. We need to be consistent and we can't actually be response for their actions.

You mentioned previously that the West has been instrumental in supporting fundamentalist regimes in the ME, you are right and that has to stop.

We need loud voices everywhere telling the truth. We don't need "hate". That's useless. We need TRUTH. We can't just blithely accept all philosophies and we cant be seen to either, we need to establish the primacy of our nations' values, we can't pretend that there's some kind of moral relativity around the treatment of women by Islam. It's not acceptable to us, and the new denizens of the West must know this.

Education, as I think I've mentioned elsewhere, might be start, though I'm not terribly hopeful. I think rigorous immigration controls are a necessary step, permitting mass uncontrolled immigration is stupid.

Blowing them up obviously isn't going to stop them being misogynists. In the end the only people who are going to stop them being misogynists is feminist Muslims. We therefore need to support, publicise and relate to feminist Muslims much more than we already have. Also moderate Muslims. I'm not at all impressed with Islam as a philosophy or a political structure but I'm not so naive as to think that my personal input or our society's collective input to the Islamic faith will have much impact on a wide scale. We need to deal with prominent individuals within Islam that support moving away from ancient prejudices. That is going to take a long time.

With respect to the political structures we can implement, ALL of them are bad. Mandatory values training before employment. Equality centres established in Islamic neighbourhoods. Critical thinking classes... ALL of these are patronising and illiberal.

Islam needs it's own punk rock movement, its own Reformation, its own Enlightenment. What are WE going to be able to do about THAT? If there's nothing we can do about it.... it really comes down to the worst possible solution. Banning them. I don't want that.

The solution is for certain young Muslim men to stop behaving like dicks. It's exactly the same as whenever anyone else behaves like a dick, if they don't stop it, society has to step in with all sorts of crappy "solutions" that don't really work. I have no idea how to train grown men to take responsibility for themselves. I only know how to do it myself.

[sibelian]

286. Racist my arse. These people believe things that are foul.

That's not race that's belief. It's nothing to do with race, Islam is not a race. It's ridiculous to try and split hairs over this, their illiberal beliefs come from their religion, which is embedded in their culture to a far greater extent than any religion is anywhere in the democratised West, also they aren't interested in being converted or being "educated" in liberal values. I have heard stories from the Norwegian education centres trying to teach young Muslim men about the rights of women and they just walk out in disgust. You seem to think it's a "bad apples" scenario, it isn't at all. There are stories all over the Internet about this from Westerners who have encountered ME attitudes towards women, countless stories all over the place, it isn't "racism" it's just true. It's nothing to do with smearing. Your comment makes exactly as much sense as saying a rapist is being "smeared" if he's being accused of misogyny. I have never EVER heard of a SINGLE Western woman coming back from a visit to the ME without her tales of how revolting ME male attitudes were towards her, not ONE, the culture is poisonous and ubiquitous in the ME, it isn't the exception, it's the norm. It's as normal as having a job is in the West.

Incidentally, substantial numbers of the men in Germany who committed the attacks on women in Cologne don't even come from Syria, but from Morocco and Tunisia, they were North African, not Middle Eastern. They aren't refugees in any sense, they are economic migrants taking advantage of the situation. And even if they WERE Syrian victims of war atrocities, that would in no sense guarantee their own moral rectitude, that's just a fallacy. Whatever happened to them, our first concern must be EUROPEAN citizens as Europe is our HOME.

[betterdemsonly]

311. He is not criticizing Islam and you know it.

He saying no-one from a muslim country should allowed to immigrate here which is discrimination based on national and religious origin. Both of you are pretending that everyone from those countries and religions believes and does those things. That is discrimination, and stereotyping. That is unconstitutional. You know it. Your pretending that is criticism of Islam. Your arse is your face and words come out of that hole.

[sibelian]

317. "YOU THERE! WHY DO YOU HATE MUSLIMS?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027397770

Why don't you go and LIVE in one of these countries and see for yourself?

[mhatrw]

320. So what is your suggestion? A never ending Crusade against those vile Muslim infidels?

[sibelian]

341. Well...

Given that European secularism took centuries of conflict to resolve and become acceptable to ordinary Europeans (in some areas it still isn't) I think my idea would be the support of secular organisations and regimes in the Middle East and education of Muslims from fundamentalist regions when they emigrate to the West, although I not particularly hopeful that that last idea is going to be very successful. Our own philosophies are based on a wide foundation of historical events that have no analogue in the ME.

[mhatrw]

350. Do you actually know any Muslims living in the United States?

Somehow I doubt it. The ones I know are pretty Westernized. I'm wondering what makes you so pessimistic about Muslims' ability to liberalize their social views once they move to Westernized nations.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Our 2011 survey of Muslim Americans found that roughly half of U.S. Muslims (48%) say their own religious leaders have not done enough to speak out against Islamic extremists.

Living in a religiously pluralistic society, Muslim Americans are more likely than Muslims in many other nations to have many non-Muslim friends. Only about half (48%) of U.S. Muslims say all or most of their close friends are also Muslims, compared with a global median of 95% in the 39 countries we surveyed.

Roughly seven-in-ten U.S. Muslims (69%) say religion is very important in their lives. Virtually all (96%) say they believe in God, nearly two-thirds (65%) report praying at least daily and nearly half (47%) say they attend religious services at least weekly. By all of these traditional measures, Muslims in the U.S. are roughly as religious as U.S. Christians, although they are less religious than Muslims in many other nations.

When it comes to political and social views, Muslims are far more likely to identify with or lean toward the Democratic Party (70%) than the Republican Party (11%) and to say they prefer a bigger government providing more services (68%) over a smaller government providing fewer services (21%). As of 2011, U.S. Muslims were somewhat split between those who said homosexuality should be accepted by society (39%) and those who said it should be discouraged (45%), although the group had grown considerably more accepting of homosexuality since a similar survey was conducted in 2007.

That sounds a lot better than any poll of US born Christian evangelicals that I have ever seen. Wouldn't you agree?

[sibelian]

356. That's got nothing to do with talking about, I'm in EUROPE.

Whatever goes on in the States is up to the States. I would advise AGAINST wholesale mass immigration of people from Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco to the States. This is the number of Muslims I know in the States - 0.

I live in Edinburgh on a cul-de-sac next to a street served by a hilarious Muslim greengrocer who's customer service is superb and whose produce is vastly superior to that of the soul-less supermarkets that have popped up all over the place in the area over the last decade. He is awesome. There is also Muslim family who run the post-office down the road. They are headed by a grey-haired, unsmiling, unfailingly courteous and utterly huge Muslim patriarch in his early 60s who reminds me greatly of my (now-deceased) grave, kindly, patient grandfather. He is a delightful man who is well-known throughout the entire community for running the office in an exemplary manner, reliably favouring the customer's needs over bureaucracy, going the extra mile and always going above and beyond the call of duty.

I have no interest whatsoever in castigating MUSLIMS.

[rjsquirrel]

202. Dear bigot

Not all bigotry is racist. Blanket "criticism" of entire world religions is bigoted.

It also tends to be shockingly ignorant as is often the case here.

[Quantess]

235. Practicing Muslims are bigoted against gays and women.

I myself am well acquainted with several women at work who identify as either muslim or ex-muslim. Most of them do not cover their hair, and dress western. A lot of the ladies are really nice and some are bitches, just like with any other group of women. Those who can speak the language do really well here, I think.

I really like several of these middle eastern women who moved here, who dress western. I think they are super cool women!
The women who insist on wearing their face-coverings will have a harder time meeting western women. That is most likely by design by the men behind the veils.

But anyway, Sweden is at least not bigoted towards...

[rjsquirrel]

262. So are many practicing Christians

Two wrongs /= right.

[Quantess]

331. I'm also bigoted against fundie Christians.

But then, so are most DUers.

[rjsquirrel]

333. So NotAllChristians (or Muslims) then?

Bigotry and inconsistency go hand in hand.

Who gets to decide which beliefs are ok?

[Quantess]

345. There are a bunch of different groups of "bigots" with conflicting beliefs, when you put it that way

Fundies of all 3 abrahamic religions tend to be misogynists and homophobes, the worst offenders being muslims.
Who is the bigger bigot, the gay or woman who criticizes christians and muslims who despise them, or the ones who hate on the women and gays?

Who gets to decide which beliefs are ok? Certainly not me, since nobody listens. Historically, it's been the big, powerful, patriarchal religions who decide which beliefs are acceptable and which are condemnable.

[Marr]

220. Couldn't agree more-- particularly with this:

Harris' analysis has been met with knee-jerk cries of racism, bigotry and the weak label "Islamophobia." I hold the left mostly responsible for the term Islamophobia, which cleverly equates racism and xenophobia with criticism of the ideas of a specific religion -- an unfair lumping together. It is a favorite tool used to silence those who link a religious ideology with negative concepts. When an interpretation of any religious teaching equates to blatant human rights abuses or harm to society, it is simply irresponsible to let it slide. Many liberals on the left seem to confuse criticism of other cultures (religion, in this case) with an endorsement of racism.

I don't even think the name-callers' motivations are all that pure, in reality. I think they often just want to prove they're somehow 'more liberal than thou', and happily service their vanity at the expense of all the women, gays, intellectuals, etc. who are kept down in the Muslim world-- not to mention the innocent people murdered by religious nuts.

[ericson00]

224. exactly. For the good of America, the world, and the Dem party,

this shit needs to end.

[mhatrw]

231. That's right! For the good of our warlords, we much recognize The Other

as uniquely evil, just as we did with the Japs, Krauts, Gooks and Commies!

[mhatrw]

230. Because we don't want to fight their intolerance and bigotry with our own?

Over 80% of Americans supported the needless murders of tens of thousands of Iraqis based on BushCo's lies.

Did you?

If you did, how do you justify your support of these heinous crimes to yourself?

If you did not, how do you think other American's justify their support of these heinous crimes to themselves?

Could it be that most Americans are bigoted against all Muslims, regardless of how secular they are or how closely their country is associated with terror groups? Could it be that this bigotry is unhelpful? Could it be that your call for us to fight rank bigotry and heinous murder with more rank bigotry and heinous murder is also unhelpful?

[Marr]

233. So you admit your defense of Islam is disingenuous.

It's not that you actually believe those glowing statements, it's just that you're worried about what right-wing loons might would do with your words if you offered an honest, objective assessment of the situation?

For the record, no-- of course I did not support Bush's invasion. And if you could point out precisely where I suggested we murder anyone, that would be great.

[mhatrw]

236. You so, so desperately want EVERYONE to recognize the UNIQUELY EVIL nature of Islam. Right?

It just chaps your rear if anyone sees through this transparent attempt to foment tribal divisions, hatred, and warfare.

I don't defend any individuals of any religion (or non-religion) who use their religion or anyone else's religion to promote fear, hatred, bigotry, tribalism, violence, murder, genocide, or warfare.

I do defend all individuals of any religion (or non-religion) against those who seek to dehumanize them because of their race, creed, color, or sexuality.

I believe that the vast majority of Muslims, even those with bigoted beliefs, are decent human beings who are worthy of human rights, just as the vast majority of US fundamentalist Christians are, and just as the vast majority of Americans who supported the needless deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis are. Do you?

[Marr]

246. No, I want people to stop making excuses for misogynistic, anti-gay systems of thought.

And I want people like yourself to stop shielding such systems of thought from much-needed criticism.

Islam is by any honest measure, misogynistic, anti-gay, and anti-intellectual. Apparently you're ok with that. I'm not, and I won't pretend it's all sunshine and rainbows just to avoid some name calling from the eager-to-be-offended.

You're so desperate to cast people as bigots that you're just completely ignoring the actual point-- not to mention the very real people who are hurt and marginalized by religious extremism. You scream 'Muslims are good people, too', even though no one is arguing otherwise. It's absurd.

I'm talking about belief systems here, and all belief systems are not the same. Islam can easily be interpreted to justify all sorts of violence and oppression-- and is being widely interpreted in such a way today. You could say the same of Christianity as recently as a couple hundred years ago, but it's largely been put in a box in the west by everything from the Enlightenment to the Civil Rights Movement. Islam has not been so defanged, and it's fundamentalist adherents enjoy much broader acceptance than their counterparts in the Christian world.

[mhatrw]

251. LOL. "By any honest measure"? What about Catholicism? Can women become priests?

Is abortion even a forgivable sin? Is it OK to be LBGT?

Nobody here is shielding sexists, homophobes, or terrorists from legitimate criticism, no matter what their religion or belief system is.

Fundamentalism that promotes sexism, homophobia and/or terrorism is fundamentally bad.

However, the fact you strive to divide fundamentalists into two camps:

the Islamic fundamentalist "belief system" = uniquely bad and "by any honest measure, misogynistic, anti-gay, and anti-intellectual"

vs.

the Judeo-Christian fundamentalist "belief system" = just fine as long as it keeps bombing the living shit out of those damn evil Muslims

makes you a raging jingoistic bigot dressed in "skeptical" clothes.

I think you need to read about the origin of and spread of Wahabbism in the Muslim world. The British-US-Saudi axis has done a lot to spread this crappy brand of fundamentalism. Our indefensible invasion and occupation the relatively secular Iraq has done even more. You also need to imagine what our nation would look like if the evangelicals who make up over 25% of our population were in charge. Would Islam look so uniquely evil to you then?

[sibelian]

346. Where does your interlocutor support Judeo-Christian fundamentalism?

Where are the Judeo-Christian fundamentalists throwing bound gay men from the tops of tall buildings?

Do you think that this practice is in any way universal/ubiquitous across the globe?

Do you see buddhists stoning women for being raped?

Are there any forms of behaviour promoted by Islam that really ARE evil, in your eyes? Are there any forms of behaviour promoted by Islam that are, in fact, unique? Or do we all do this stuff? Is it all just normal?

It's all run-of-the-mill NORMAL fascism, is it?

You think it ISN'T fascism? It's nice cuddly "brown people" fascism is it? So that means it's nasty if we call it out because they're brown?

[mhatrw]

351. Where are Muslims extrajudicially murdering completely innocent Christians with drone strikes?

If Christian evangelical warlords were in charge of small parochial sections of the USA, do you really have any doubt that we would see state sanctioned violence against openly gay individuals and women who had abortions?

Of course, we should "call out" racism, sexism, and homophobia anywhere and everywhere it exists. But, if our goal is eradicating racism, sexism, and homophobia everywhere it exists, how does dividing up racists, sexists and homophobes and declaring those who also practice Islam uniquely evil help us to achieve our goal?

Muslim are just so, so damn scary! I mean, they cut off heads, stone women, and toss gays off of buildings! How barbaric! Why can't they be more like us and just confine themselves to shocking and aweing tens of thousands of innocent people because of the "threat" of nonexistent WMDs?

[sibelian]

355. "They cut off heads, stone women, and toss gays off of buildings! How barbaric!" - Yes! IT IS!

These are unambiguously BAD THINGS. I don't think paraphrasing me with exclamation marks is going to alter the moral significance of these actions.

"But, if our goal is eradicating racism, sexism, and homophobia everywhere it exists" - Noooooo, our goal is preventing an INCREASE in such problems in our nations that may arise through refusing to acknowledge that inviting large numbers of homophobic, misogynistic, authority loving weirdos is likely to increase the frequency of misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, antisemitic attacks on innocent people!

The idea that we could significantly alter the Middle East's cultural landscape in any significant way over a reasonable timespan is silly, for one thing. Any long-term project we could adhere to is likely to dissipate before it has any real effect because OUR societies morph and develop rapidly according to changing global circumstances. Family relations, interpersonal relations, our perspectives on other nations, economic problems, all our strategies around these things are up for grabs and being moulded and discarded and re-introduced through triangulation-enabled democracy. EVERYTHING is part of the Western political conversation. That's not necessarily true elsewhere. We can't rely on our own nation's perspectives on any of these things to remain the same from one generation to the next, so we can't develop any realistic response to Islamic fundamentalism over democratic timescales, the problem of dissipating global prejudice against the already disenfranchised is generational, it's not something you solve in an election cycle, or even three election cycles. We are responsible for OUR people. We can't take responsibility for everybody.

"how does dividing up racists, sexists and homophobes and declaring those who also practice Islam uniquely evil help us to achieve our goal?"

1. It stops racism (yes, substantial numbers of fundamentalist Muslims are horribly racist, so are many Chinese people and a substantial proportion of the Japanese, and Koreans, you should hear the stories one of my ex-work colleagues used to tell about her trips home to Hong Kong, they all thought she was a low-class maid from the Phillipines because she was taller than most Chinese people despite being entirely of Chinese ancestry, racism isn't some kind of mysteriously Western phenomenon), and sexism and homophobia spreading through crowds via peer support and establishing itself as a cultural norm.

2. I am NOT declaring "all those who practice Islam" as uniquely evil, that is a mischaracterisation of my position, I wish you would stop doing this. You must know perfectly well by now what it is I'm saying, please stop making me responsible for correcting your flights of fancy in this direction. I live with Muslim people on my street, thank you. What I am saying is that Islam is a conduit for misogyny and homophobia, just as many other religions are, and it is uniquely Islamic nations that validate and enshrine grotesquely abusive reactions to women and gay men in law, women being by far the more greatly affected, I will add. There are many Islamic nations which do not engage in this, that fact does not change the religion of the nations that do, nor does it dissolve the connection between those nations legals structures and their religion.

3. You can give up trying to persuade me that the West's previously attempted and ridiculous and totally self-defeating military strategies against the ME are going to have any bearing on our understanding of the nature of Islam. Just because bombing it doesn't fix it doesn't mean that theocracy is some kind of super-fun thing we're all supposed to think is morally acceptable. I haven't advocated any military action against any Islamic nation (although I have no problem whatsoever with specialist operations against ISIS, who are just plain evil). I have no idea why you keep bring it up. I protested against the Iraq War in Glasgow and Edinburgh along with everyone else and was ignored by Blair along with everyone else. I have no idea who or what it is you think I am.

I keep seeing people saying "Islam isn't monolithic" well it's FUCKLOAD more monolithic than any kind of Western culture, I'll tell you that for nothing. Obviously it isn't possible to point at any individual Muslim and say "that guy believes X" any more than it is with any other belief structure, and it is also a fundamental of liberalism that this individual Muslim has the right to that acknowledgement of his or her individuality, but that fundamental point in and of itself does not form a basis from which to dismiss observations of Islam as a whole.

[smirkymonkey]

256. Bravo!

[betterdemsonly]

273. I don't have to work hard to prove anything given the fact that your real problem is with

Constitution, and given the fact that calling for discrimination against certain groups based on national, ethnic or religious origins are all equally unconstitutional, and against Tos irrespective of whether the juries don't enforce it when the discrimination is against some groups.

[Marr]

275. Where did I 'call for discrimination'?

I want liberals to stop providing cover for misogynistic, anti-gay, anti-intellectual, dangerous religious nonsense by calling everyone who makes reasonable criticisms of Islam 'bigots' or 'Islamophobes'.

It isn't unconstitutional to criticize religion.

[betterdemsonly]

309. The original poster called for not allowing people to imigrate from muslim countries

and pretended this was critcism of Islam. You went along and pretended there were a bunch of liberals here who covered for antigay, anti-intellectual, and dangerous religious nonsense.

[Spider Jerusalem]

232. Acting like "Islam" is a monolithic entity is, however, shockingly ignorant

looking at the excesses of jihadists and the more extreme followers of Wahhabism as your guideline for "Islam" is like basing your understanding of Christianity on the Westboro Baptist Church, or thinking Baruch Goldstein is representative of Jews.

[Quantess]

238. I am acquainted with several non-practicing muslim women, and also

muslim women who cover their hair. A couple are friends, many of them are very nice, some are friendly, some are super-cool, and of course some bitches I don't get along with.

Get over it, buddy.

Oh, have I mentioned that I think religion is all a bunch of shit, and that I do not value one shitty religion above another.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

240. Same here.

My county (Houston area) has a large Muslim population, but they tend to be professionals who don't hold to fundamentalist beliefs.

[Quantess]

248. The ex-muslims tend to be cool people, and

and they tend to be women.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

257. I know a whole family of ex-Muslims

Dad was Muslim, Mom was Catholic, but they began raising the kids as Muslim when they were younger , but it fell by the wayside.

My neighbors across the street (two houses over ) are observant Muslims, but not fundamentalist. The wife doesn't wear a head covering, although her sister who lived with them for a while does.

[sibelian]

296. Its "monolithicity" depends on the location of it's followers.

The NATIONAL location, to be exact.

The comparison between [Jihadists and Wahabbism] and [the Westboro Baptist Church] would make sense if the WBC currently controlled entire nations and was able to coordinate attacks on Paris.

In reality the West has no analogue to Islamic extremism, nor even "moderate" Islam, that's one of the problems.

[cheapdate]

252. Some is, some isn't.

There is criticism of Islam that's legitimate and informed by reality, and there's criticism that's neither.

Illegitimate criticism starts with the premise that the only true form of Islam is fundamentalism and all Muslims who aren't fundamentalists are lying or practicing Taqyia (lying in defense of the faith.) Pamela Geller and her ilk push this line of criticism.

Legitimate criticism recognizes there is a diversity of belief and interpretation within Islam.

[FrodosPet]

272. Are we allowed to criticize their religious texts?

Qu'ran

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.190

002.190

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

002.191

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

002.216

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/005-qmt.php#005.033

005.033

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

005.038

As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.012

008.012

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

008.038

Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

008.039

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

008.060

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.005

009.005

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.014

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

009.029

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

009.123

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/017-qmt.php#017.016

017.016

When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.

Hadiths

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.177

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 182:
Narrated 'Ali:

When it was the day of the battle of Al-Ahzab (i.e. the clans), Allah's Apostle said, "O Allah! Fill their (i.e. the infidels') houses and graves with fire as they busied us so much that we did not perform the prayer (i.e. 'Asr) till the sun set."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php#019.4321

Book 019, Number 4321:

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php#019.4294

Book 019, Number 4294:

It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.

[killbotfactory]

285. There are passages in the bible just as horrible

thankfully Christians in this country generally don't bother to read it.

[FrodosPet]

301. Does that negate the negativity and militancy of these passages then?

Last edited Sat Jan 16, 2016, 06:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Or is it "There is bad shit in the Old Testament, so it doesn't matter what's in the Qu`ran and Hadiths, shut up about them"?

[killbotfactory]

313. Isis behaves in a way specifically endorsed by the bible.

If you give Christians and Jews get a pass about this, maybe you should give the same consideration to the billion or so Muslims on the planet who are living peacefully among us.

[Jim Beard]

261. Cologne attacks: Migrant men banned from German swimming pool 1-15-16

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35326090

A German town has banned male asylum seekers from a public swimming pool after women complained of harassment.

A government official in Bornheim said men from a nearby asylum shelter would be barred until they "got the message" that such behaviour was not acceptable.

It follows outrage over hundreds of sexual assaults in nearby Cologne and other German cities on New Year's Eve.

Those attacks, by men of mainly Arab and North African origin, raised tensions over the influx of migrants.

More than 1.1 million people claimed asylum in Germany in 2015.

The head of the social affairs department in Bornheim - about 20km (12 miles) south of Cologne - said the move to ban migrant men followed increasing number of reports of inappropriate behaviour from female swimmers and staff members.

"There have been complaints of sexual harassment and chatting-up going on in this swimming pool... by groups of young men, and this has prompted some women to leave," Markus Schnapka told Reuters.

He said none of the complaints involved a crime being committed, but that social workers in the town would help to ensure the asylum seekers changed their behaviour.

It is unclear how this rule will be enforced, although Germany is set to introduce new ID cards for migrants in February.
Support falling

Correspondents say the pool ban is the latest sign of increased tensions following the Cologne attacks.

On Thursday, the authorities in another town in west Germany, Rheinberg, cancelled a carnival parade planned for February over security concerns.

Rheinberg's public security chief, Jonny Strey, told German media that events in Cologne had influenced the decision and that officials were worried about from men from migrant backgrounds misbehaving.

Rheinberg Mayor Frank Tatzel later denied this, according to Reuters.

Cologne authorities expressed concern about the city's own carnival in February following the NYE attacks, promising to step up security and public awareness.

An opinion poll on Friday showed public anxiety increasing over the number of refugees and migrants arriving in Germany.

In the research, published by broadcaster ZDF (in German), 66% of the 1,203 respondents said Germany could not handle the arrivals, up from 46% in December.

Support for Chancellor Angela Merkel, under pressure over her policies to welcome refugees, also fell - with 39% of people agreeing the chancellor was doing a "good job" in this area, down from 47% in December.

[lancer78]

266. I only dislike

Israel because of their apartheid policies and the fact we have given them hundreds of billions over the last 65 years.

[mog75]

274. K & R

[stone space]

276. Dear Shawn. Sam Harris is not a liberal.

“The End of Faith” pages 128-129, by Sam Harris: http://www.samharris.org/the-end-of-faith

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own. All of this is perfectly insane, of course: I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world’s population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher’s stone, and unicorns. That it would be a horrible absurdity for so many of us to die for the sake of myth does not mean, however, that it could not happen. Indeed, given the immunity to all reasonable intrusions that faith enjoys in our discourse, a catastrophe of this sort seems increasingly likely. We must come to terms with the possibility that men who are every bit as zealous to die as the nineteen hijackers may one day get their hands on long-range nuclear weaponry. The Muslim world in particular must anticipate this possibility and find some way to prevent it. Given the steady proliferation of technology, it is safe to say that time is not on our side."

[marmar]

279. Exactly. He's a bigot who tries to cloak his bigotry in intellectualism, when in fact.....

..... he really isn't that bright.

[sibelian]

288. How did that quote support your assertion?

?

[stone space]

290. First Strike Nuclear Genocide against Muslims is not a liberal position. (nt)

[sibelian]

292. He doesn't advocate it. He DESCRIBES it.

It's obvious from the text that he couldn't be less keen on the idea.

[FrodosPet]

302. Have you read the Qu'ran and Hadith verses I posted?

Why should non-Muslims NOT be intimidated by them?

Please Note: Multiple people have reminded me what I already know. The Old Testament is horrible, and many non-Muslims are horrible. Could you please be the first to educate me without using the Old Testament cop out about why these verses are not bad when so many Muslims are such strong, faithful believers in the perfection of their sacred texts?

[FrodosPet]

303. (Some of) the intimidating parts of Islamic sacred texts

Qu'ran

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.190

002.190

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

002.191

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

002.216

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/005-qmt.php#005.033

005.033

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

005.038

As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.012

008.012

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

008.038

Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

008.039

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

008.060

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.005

009.005

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.014

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

009.029

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

009.123

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/017-qmt.php#017.016

017.016

When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.

Hadiths

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.177

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 182:
Narrated 'Ali:

When it was the day of the battle of Al-Ahzab (i.e. the clans), Allah's Apostle said, "O Allah! Fill their (i.e. the infidels') houses and graves with fire as they busied us so much that we did not perform the prayer (i.e. 'Asr) till the sun set."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php#019.4321

Book 019, Number 4321:

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php#019.4294

Book 019, Number 4294:

It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.

[mhatrw]

314. Could you quote the text of the uniquely evil belief system that convinced

80% of Americans to support the murder of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis based on BushCo's lies?

I bet that text must be pretty intimidating. Wouldn't you agree?

[stone space]

315. Are these quotes intended as a refutation of my post, or as a justification for genocide? (nt)

[ericson00]

321. what is it with people like you who try to claim

that anyone wants genocide?

Maybe people just want a sensible refugee/asylum policy and America to use its bully pulpit to pressure the Islamic world to reform.

[mhatrw]

323. Since when does US foreign policy judge Muslim regimes on their relative treatment

of apostates, women or homosexuals?

Can you not see how damning Islam rather than Islamic fundamentalism leads to misshapen indefensible tragedies such BushCo's murder of tens of thousands of relatively secular Iraqis?

The British-US-Saudi axis has been actively exporting fundamentalist Wahhabism for well over a century. How about we start our fight against fundamentalist Islamic human rights violations by not fomenting and arming fundamentalist militants and not bombing, invading and occupying relatively secular Muslim nations? Is that something we can find common ground on?

[stone space]

324. What do you think a Nuclear Attack would be?

what is it with people like you who try to claim that anyone wants genocide?

[ericson00]

325. but no mainstream people argue for that

so pure strawman

[stone space]

326. I have no opinion on how "mainstream" Sam Harris is or isn't. The article used him as an axample.

And this subthread resides under his quote.

[ericson00]

327. when did he ever advocate

for genocide of any sort? Or is it because he pointed out the threat of Muslim countries having nukes so you need to spin him.

[bemildred]

328. These "I am not a bigot" essays are starting to get boring.

People who want to cling to their bigotry should keep it to themselves.

[Quantess]

332. I'm also bigoted against fundie Christians.

Many DUers are likewise bigoted against fundamental Christians. Are we wrong?

[mhatrw]

352. Just wrong to divide fundamentalists into two groups and call one uniquely evil. nt

[Quantess]

353. It isn't any better to praise and cuddle one group of fundamentalists

while sneering at the other group of fundamentalists.

[loyalsister]

347. I agree Islam is not a Race

But much of the criticism that circulates is bigotted. The idea that all Muslims must take responsibility for the few who commit violent acts is every bit as bigotted as demanding that your black co-worker take responsibility for "black on black" crime.