The draft, and foreign policy... how they are actually connected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well, to those of us who grew outside the United States and got to see the result of US Foreign policy in the flesh, there is a truism. Americans in general are pretty much ignorant, willfully so, of what their government does in the name of freedom. Trust me, it is not nice.

Whether it is trade policy, which has left many peasants across Mexico and Central America destitute. or using Drones in the hinterlands of the Pakistani- Afghani border, or for that matter US meddling in Africa, or South East Asia, or for that matter the Middle East. Americans for the most part do not know the history that leads to a slew of policies that do not change from administration to administration (in the broad strokes, some of the specifics do), because when you run an Empire, well shit, you run an Empire. And Empires do not care if you are a Democrat or a Republican. It is just business you see...

One of the reasons to the end of the draft was a very coordinated resistance from middle class kids. Yes, Nixon knew that if the draft came to an end, most of these kids would stop paying attention. For the most part, he was correct.

Here is the problem, As long as policy makers can continue this Imperial project without you paying attention, they will. This includes not enacting a draft. No, not becuase the force does not want it. (Many veterans do, and an increasing number from the current adventures see it as the only way to make people pay attention, because otherwise people go shopping) but because Empire becomes difficult to do if you have kids in the streets actually challenging you on foreign policy every step of the way. And when these kids start to work together with kids across other countries, well it can get really difficult. No, 1968 was not an easy year for empire and was squashed as hard as Occupy was.

And yes, while most kids in the 1960s spoke of SE Asia, some kids started to talk of Latin America and Africa and a few other things. Yup, the coup in Chile registered with those kids, (and there was a news media with news bureaus to boot).

I have a lot of respect for the locals with Veterans for Peace, or the Peace House. They at times might say things that I don't agree with about what we are doing abroad, but damn it, they KNOW what is going outside of US Borders. They also speak of the need for everybody else to start paying attention to what YOUR GOVERNMENT is doing IN YOUR NAME. Yes, it matters, what NAFTA did to peasants in Chiapas (why we had an uprising... and why the region is still somewhat semi autonomous from the central Mexico City government. I forgive you if you have no idea what I am talking about by the way.)

It matters what CAFTA has done to peasants in El Salvador and that they are fleeing what the OAS (Organization of American States) and the United Nations is calling a war, since yes, we are deporting them back to places where people are killed for refusing to do the bidding of the gangs. In other words, we should be treating them as REFUGEES, but since most Americans are ignorant of these details, few are speaking against the deportations outside the usual suspects. Oh those gangs. they are partially our policy nightmare and our product. I am sure you all have heard of the War on Drugs and a few other issues...

One of these days we will have another United States Senator ask the same question Senator Byrd asked after 911.... is this blowback? There are many reasons why we will see blowback, and funny thing, it is not just ISIS, or the Russians, who hate our guts. "Yankee Go Home" can stil be seen in walls in Mexico City, as well as "Gringo estupido." Yup, not everybody loves us. Sorry to break this one if you were not aware.

One of these days that blowback will be large enough where our policy makers will not be able to continue to tell you "GO SHOPPING," and they will have to call up a DRAFT. They don't want to,. Trust me on this, The last thing they need is for people to have skin in the game and actually, FINALLY start paying attention to more than what is the latest IPHONE model, or Britney Spears...

It is like when they hide your city budget on page A -17. You have been trained to not care and to ignore what government does at all levels.

So for all those going BUT MY KIDS, NO DRAFT, fine, we agree, now start paying attention to what the United States Government is sowing all over the place. Because you know what? The day it comes, when it comes, and they have no choice, some of us will point this out. WE TOLD YOU SO.

Self government is not easy... and you will have to do a lot of reading in high level publications like oh Foreign Policy, and start reading into how the rest of the world sees you. Learn a foreign language, watch foreign media, read a foreign paper. Try to understand how OTHERS see the United States, and how they see Americans. The stereotype of the ignorant ugly American has not changed that much since some went to Europe after World War II and did quite a bit of stupid shit, like smoke cigars wrapped in French Franks.

[stone space]

1. Time to Denounce the Pacifists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. And this has no place in what I just posted (Graphic warning)

as the rest of what you were told, it went over your head.

YOU do not want a draft. FINE FUCKING LEARN WHAT IS BEING DONE RIGHT NOW IN YOUR NAME AND DEMAND THAT CHANGES. OR I GUARANTEE A DRAFT IN YOUR KID'S LIFETIME.

This was done in your name



This are some of the mass graves in Guatemala with not just our knowledge but our blessing.



El Salvador civil war


These guys are MS 13, they are our product... and some of them walk our streets



This is Mexico right now, 90,000 dead due to the war on drugs, and at least 27,000 missing, some estimates place that as high as 100,000

And this is just south of the border. Keep whistling. You want peace, LEARN THIS, INTERNALIZE IT. Becuase when blowback happens, many of us who do have a fucking clue will point at you and fucking laugh.

Oh and finally I am still waiting for you to quote me chapter and verse telling you that peace lovers should be put in prison. What? You cannot find it? Not surprised since I never fucking said that. It would be silly for somebody who uses the First Amendment regularly to demand others are jailed for using it.

[stone space]

3. "They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks"

Isaiah 2-4

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. So this is going to happen due to a passage in a book written by humans? (Graphic warning)

Oy.

I know self government is hard,. I know changing US Foreign policy is almost quixotic. We call ourselves a democracy, well none said it would be easy.

SO go on. keep quoting from fantasy books written on the command of kings instead of doing the hard work required to change that policy. Oh more photos.



Chile 1973

?resize=* &output-quality=75

This is Mexico right now



The missing in Guatemala



The mothers of the Plaza de Mayo in Argentina... they are still looking for their kids by the way.



Nicaragua in the 1980s

Do you need more?

[stone space]

5. Who do you want us to kill, and what will you do to us when we refuse?

And I will refuse.

Violence can only get you so far.

I will not kill at your command.

You don't own me.

And you never will.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Stil flies over your heard (Again, graphic since our friend is hard headed)

none is telling you to go kill and be killed. NONE.

You must be the most obtuse person around, or just a willfully ignorant American. So I will give you more photos of what we have done.




This is Shock and Awe, but that not even my "favorite."



You think many people appreciate when we do not protect this, but protect this?



Now let's show you more of what our policies have wrought shall we?



That be Somalia



Oh that is the Afghani Soviet War, which led in some ways to this



The 911 attacks....

We call this BLOWBACK. You want peace, fucking work to change THESE POLICIES.

Now I suggest you find yourself a world map and find the location of each of the photos I showed you. Trust me, or not, I don't give a shit. this is far from the tip of the iceberg.

[stone space]

7. I will not blow shit up for you.

If that's what you want to do, you're on your own.

Count me out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I want that fucking quote

where exactly have I said that?

Please.

I am asking you to do YOUR FUCKING JOB AS A CITIZEN, BECOME INFORMED AND CHANGE THE POLICIES THAT HAVE LED TO THIS. Becuase you know what, people abroad do have a long memory. I guess that continues to fly over your head. You are no longer a caricature, but the embodiment of the ignorant american.

by the way, since you will not do your job, and you are not alone. I expect your kids or grand kids to face a draft, I hope to be alive to point out that YOU did not do your job as a citizen.

[stone space]

9. Violence is not the solution. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Again show me the exact quote where I said that

I will be waiting for as long as the solar system is expected to be around, about 10 billion years.

[stone space]

11. I'll stick to non-violence. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. So tell me how exactly are you going to do that POLICY WISE?

It is a nice ideal for a policy, but HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO DO THAT AS A CITIZEN?

Cause platitudes on the internet will change nothing of what the United States Government is doing right now abroad, Some is good (Ebola for example) some of it is not.

[stone space]

13. My policy is nonviolence. Sorry of that offends you. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. It does not, as a former medic for a red cross society I like that

I happen to have actually done something actually RISKY, to live that non violence. So I am going to ask you again, how the fuck are you going to get this implemented all the way from your local police department to the United States Congress and the Presidency of the United States?

Or you mean just empty platitudes on the internets where you can be ignored?

By the way, my local ACTUAL PEACE MAKERS, like the folks at Veterans for Peace and the Peace House , actually work on policy and non violence and try to get people ELECTED who share their policy goals. They are living it, and are good citizens in the process.

I am starting to think you are a cartoon. Most peace workers have actual thick policy agendas.

[stone space]

15. The feeling is mutual.

I am starting to think you are a cartoon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Then don't respond

because at this point I find you unable to hold a conversation, and you like to lie and misrepresent what people tell you...

[stone space]

17. Take a break. Watch a movie.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. What and miss on the entertainment?

[stone space]

19. Perhaps a prayer would be better?

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. For what a sky daddy that allows these horrors in his name?

I even know where I lost my faith. See that about being a medic for a FOREIGN RED CROSS society.

[stone space]

21. Some of my best cellmates have been Christians. Priests, even. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. That's nice

I still don't pray.

[stone space]

25. I don't pray, either. I'm an atheist. But if you are going to do it, then do it right.

I've heard that there's a proper way to do it.

But with your "sky-daddy" approach to religion, you might not understand.

"We are militant. You have to be militant to stand on a picket line with a gun pointed at your head. You have to be militant to keep pressure on growers all the time, pushing them back from barrier to the next...We have found prayer important in nonviolent work, but it's most effective when accompanied by lots of hard picketing"

https://books.google.com/books?id=c_VE3xUR5FEC&pg=PR10&lpg=PR10&source=bl&ots=RO4GjYzcpC&sig=CX7lTxjB3XobI0M7u9hGe9kwBMU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1CnuVLCnDMWPyATEs4DIDw

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. LMAO... if you knew how many times I got shot at... mind you that actually happens in the real world

Oy...

And I only reserve the sky daddy comment to those stupid enough to push prayer and them claim they are atheist. Why is it that I do not buy your act for a damn second. Like the rest of is, I just don't So going back, what the hell are you doing policy wise to change the path of the US from Empire? I mean it. Because as long as we are one... well blowback.

[stone space]

27. You said it in response to the Catonsville 9 clip.

And I only reserve the sky daddy comment to those stupid enough to push prayer and them claim they are atheist.

Pretty sure none of the good folks in that clip ever claimed to be atheists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT PUSH FAITH?

And now you claim to be an atheist? You push crap like that, you will get sly daddy comments. Did you really need that clarification?

Oh and I am still waiting for you to

1.- give me a direct quote where I said that peace makers should be in prison (will be waiting till hell freezes over, or the universe cools down)

2.- give me a direct quote where I am in favor of violence, Again, I will be waiting for the great cool down.

And I am still waiting for you to give me a how you intend to change the course we are in.

[stone space]

29. No, I didn't.

DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT PUSH FAITH?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Alas I can actually quote you

stone space (3,943 posts)
19. Perhaps a prayer would be better?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7534661

Now I will wait for you to show me exactly where I said I preferred violence, (good luck on that one) or that people should be put in jail who are pacifists...

I will be waiting for the grand unraveling for that to happen.

[stone space]

31. You turned down a movie, so I offered a prayer.

Odd that somebody with an interest in the draft would be so clueless as to the nature of the Catonsville 9 action.

Perhaps you should go back and watch it before you embarrass yourself further regarding the Lord's Prayer.

I'll wait.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Embarrass myself

Ok, I will ask again, show me proof of what YOU CLAIMED I SAID, free clue you can't. and tell me how the fuck are you going to change the policies of the United States?

I know you can't, because all you are into is fucking empty platitudes. So when, not if, when, the United States Government faces blowback to it's policies abroad of such size they have no choice but to call for a draft, I will laugh at you for your platitudes. You want to avoid that... well then, start doing what you need to do to change ... how the United States does business abroad.

Let me tell you, that mass grave... is in one of the provinces in Guatemala. Many of the people who survived, went to refugee camps in Mexico. Some ended up in Mexico City, where idiots like me had to do debriefings... and listen to stories that made clear they were refugees, and turn those over to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. I was doing cartwheels when Rios Mont was finally tried. Because none of us expected to ever see those stacks of testimony to ever see the light of day in open court.

So you talk about your fantasies, I prefer to be in the real world. In the real world people fucking work for those policy changes that will move US from Empire where we stop providing training weapons and support to the Kaibiles. Oh and in case you wonder that kid I helped debrief, about 15, watched her father and mother die, her mother was raped, she was raped. Her little sister was raped, her little brother was raped and shot. That is the real world. That we knew, well the United States Government knew.

[stone space]

33. If you support a draft, you support violence against innocient people. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Since you cannot

prove I support it.

Saying that something will happen because the nature of the beast is that we will see blowback does not mean one supports it. It is called a fact.

Like the rest, you keep misrepresenting, because you got nothing to do but internet platitudes. The HARD. almost quixotic work of changing US Policy is not something you are prepared to do.

Please give me a direct quote where I actually say I am in actual favor of one. Pointing out that the only way Americans take any interest in foreign policy is if their kin are at risk is not being in favor a policy. It is just a fact, one fact that people abroad know well. Americans are willfully ignorant of what their government does abroad.

So I will wait for the great unraveling, because you will not find that quote.

[stone space]

35. You are getting tedious. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. If defending oneself from misrepresentations (Graphic)

is tedious, well stop posting on whatever I post. See that ignore button, I suggest you use it. Because I will continue to ream with our policies.

?itok=xnlBC9pd

Pol Pot



Guatemala



Vietnam



Iran, 1953



Iranian Revolution, kind of blowback to the rise of the Shah, which led to a lot of issues.



One should never forget the FARC



"Yankees out of Latin America"



And then you have this from some americans

?cdn=no

And this from Murieta, rejecting the same kids from Central America you have YET to explain why they came to the United States, risking death.

[stone space]

37. Not sure what your point is. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I know you keep missing it

so I will make it short. WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF US POLICY THAT WILL PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AND CREATING THE CONDITIONS THAT WILL LEAD TO BLOWBACK AND PERHAPS A DRAFT?

Suffice it to say. the last thing policy makers want is a fucking draft. It can be rather inconvenient.

You keep missing the point. YOU need to do more than just post platitudes on the internets to PREVENT THE CONDITIONS THAT ARE LEADING to well blowback.

This is what that looks like



US Embassy in Nairobi in 1998

?w=770



Beirut Barracks bombing

So exactly what are you doing about this? Because I know what I do. I try to educate people, not easy, most people do not really want to know. I also contact my member of congress often, in detailed briefs, not that I expect him to pay attention to me. And chiefly I FUCKING PAY ATTENTION to what the US is doing abroad. I tend to pay closer attention to Latin America, but I speak Spanish so that is a language thing. I do not hide my head in the sand.

[stone space]

39. Perhaps it's your delivery?

"and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more"

Isaiah 2:4

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Keep quoting books commissioned by kings to keep their people down

instead of doing the real hard work that needs doing. Have an excellent day. You do not want to discuss, you want to do something else, and it is clear to me what you want to do. It is hardly nice

[stone space]

43. Damn Pacifists, always forcing their religion on the State.

Don't they understand that Militarism is the State Religion, and that anything else constitutes Blasphemy?

How dare they lower their Hammers on this nation's secular gods.

Those Damn Pacifists are just trying to keep the people down with their Damn Hammers.

“It’s idolatry, putting trust in weapons. And weapons are made like gods. … Weapons are always false gods because they make money. It’s profiteering.”

---Sister Megan Rice---

The Prophets of Oakridge

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/wp-style/2013/09/13/the-prophets-of-oak-ridge/?tid=ptv_rellink

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Keep pushing your sky god on others

and yes, I will say it, you are an atheist just as much as I am a martian.

Keep kicking the thread though, Others will read the OP and PERHAPS< not you, you are incapable. will start thinking, mebbe, just mebbe it is time to start paying attention and TRYING TO DO THE HARD WORK OF A CITIZEN.


I am not going to hold my breath with you, I think you are fully incapable of doing more than just fucking platitudes and misrepresenting what people tell you.

[stone space]

46. Do Christians weilding Hammers disturb you?

This atheist isn't bothered by them at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Kick, thank you

[stone space]

48. You assume that all atheists embrace violence. We don't.

and yes, I will say it, you are an atheist just as much as I am a martian.

That's a myth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Thanks again for the kick

[stone space]

51. Do you equate atheism with violence? (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Keep kicking it with dishonest misrepresentations.

thanks

[stone space]

53. A question is not a misrepresentation.

You question my atheism because of my pacifism.

Now, I get it that you don't like pacifists, but your distaste for pacifism in and of itself does not make us all religious.

The purveyors of violence do not have a monopoly an atheism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Again thanks for the kick

And for the rest of the class, this person has been doing this all night and all day, misrepresenting everything to fit a cartoon. So now will kick.

[trackfan]

22. On a personal "micro" level I could never support a draft.

Hell, I won't even join a club, or go to a gym. However, I can see that with a draft you get the possibility - and when the going gets too stupid, the probability - of an actual mutiny; and such mutinies pretty much ended WWI and Vietnam, as well as giving the world that mixed blessing, the Soviet Union.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. They are a mixed blessing

Short term they do add muscle to militaries, but (and I use quotations for a reason) "if the cause is not just" sooner or later the people back home revolt, and the troops at times do as well. At a very macro level, US Policy makers will only use one as an absolute last resort, becuase they remember Vietnam. And the current one, which is a poverty draft, works just dandy.

And the quotes, I can only think of ONE war, and that was accidental mind you, that even got close to the Just War Doctrine... perhaps two... and they have to do with stopping genocides.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

44. Mutinies caused the end of the Vietnam war?

Bartender, I'll have what trackfan is having.



I'd bet there wasn't much difference in performance of a draftee vs enlisted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. There was a little of that, but not much

it is called the Winter Solider, and it disturbed the Pentagon to no end.

https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/VVAW_wintersoldier.html

Yeah, yeah vets but their testimony did get back to the troops. The effect of Winter Solider is still debated, but it is one that the Pentagon will not repeat if they can avoid it.

At the end of the war draftees were not as effective as at the beginning of the war. This is where the old idea that draftees would not be as committed to defend Saigon as their professional counterparts. Never mind that those same draftees did exceedingly well in WW II

[haikugal]

56. They are two entirely different things...no comparison.

Good OP...

[EdwardBernays]

40. Fully support this

Like you say, the elites in the US described their strategy for ending the draft:

Nixon thought ending the draft could be an effective political weapon against the burgeoning anti-war movement. He believed middle-class youths would lose interest in protesting the war once it became clear that they would not have to fight, and possibly die, in Vietnam.

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/01/us-military-draft-ends-jan-27-1973-072085#ixzz3xPViOka5

Without a draft the US can have war without end, simply by bribing the children of poor people to die for our class - many of which are deplorable, to say the least.

And most people don't care that the poor are being sent to die while they're able to protect theirs with cash. They don't care that the US is killing many many thousands of civilians around the world, many of them poor children.

They PRETEND they care, but if their kids were drafted their caring about THAT wouldn't simply involve clicking k&r on a few random DU posts. If it was their kids they'd be protesting in the streets. They'd be calling their congressmen and senators... And the media.

And that's what Nixon knew.

So ya see, claiming to care is transparently false - and we can tell because of your ignorance apathy and inaction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Hey I am the media

trust me, I can tell how much people care by the number of hits the articles on the city budget or issues in Mexico get... they are about the same. People have been trained not to care about shit that matters, but to care about fluffy

[haikugal]

55. Fucking bizzare exchange....

I don't think pacifist means what you think it does stone space...geez.

Thanks for this Nadin, I hadn't seen it!

Kick and recommend!!

[Odin2005]

57. Great post, Nadine, as usual!

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Thanks it was an interesting one to write