Europe - migrants - Cologne attacks - The comments section on this Guardian article...

[sibelian]

Last edited Sat Jan 16, 2016, 10:12 AM - Edit history (1)

I think some people posting here might get a better idea of what's going on in Europe with the migrant situation if they read this article, which is about Cologne, and then the comments section on this article, (and not the "Guardian picks", which are laughably slanted towards Hinsliffe's position). It would also give some of you an idea of how the left in the UK currently views the Guardian, which is to say - not with fondness.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-hard-questions-new-years-eve

A lot of people are extremely angry.

I suggest reading the entire comment thread. I have been posting to the Guardian comments section for some years now and I have never seen an author so roundly lambasted there, the audience completely obliterates Hinsliffe, and given the tone of her article, I'm not at all surprised. There are 6,000 comments and some of the recommendation totals are in the thousands. It's unprecedented in my experience.

It is often better to hear the voice of the people rather than the voice of the journalist or politician. It will rapidly become clear to anyone reading the comment section on the article I've linked to that the current stance of tolerance for uncontrolled immigration is not going to last much longer.

And this is in the UK. I can't imagine how Germany is reacting. Not well, I suspect.

[Lizzie Poppet]

1. This sea change among the various electorates in Europe has been brewing.

The New Year's outbreak of attacks on women was a spark that already had plenty of tinder to land in. I have serious concerns about how far the pendulum could swing the other way, for all that change needed to happen.

[sibelian]

2. I'm worried about it as well.

If the respective Governments of the nations that sustained these attacks don't do something about it, the general populace will.

There is more than one story doing the rounds along the lines of "left wing academic/journalist/government stooge covers up abuse of women/children for fear of looking racist - perpetrator of non-caucasian/ME decsent." Rotherham left a big mark.

The right will gain from this.

[hifiguy]

14. Primarily because the left has

Stuck its fingers in its collective ears and buried its head in the sand.

[sibelian]

60. Exactly. Rotherham's may end up destroying the UK left, and Cologne may bury the German left...

... if they don't start listening and doing something.

[Green Forest]

3. Uncontrolled immigration is a horrible idea. I hope they renew controls soon.

Otherwise, the EU is dead.

[sibelian]

4. It was really stupid.

A recipe for disaster.

[scarletwoman]

5. The people of Europe have every right to be angry.

Their governments are allowing them to be invaded by members of a foreign culture who do not share their values and mores.

[pampango]

8. "... invaded by members of a foreign culture who do not share their values and mores." Le Pen and

Wilders have been saying this for years, even decades by their RW predecessors. Now Trump is fighting this 'invasion' of Muslims. It's good to see the left coming around to their point of view.

Marine Le Pen, French National Front Leader, Speaks at Her Hate-Speech Trial

France’s Muslim immigrants are an alien force threatening French values.

Ms. Le Pen portrayed herself as the rampart against what she depicted as a state capitulating in the face of an alien invasion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/21/world/europe/marine-le-pen-french-national-front-leader-speaks-at-her-hate-speech-trial.html?_r=0

Wilders tells Dutch parliament refugee crisis is 'Islamic invasion'

Dutch far-right leader Geert Wilders called the wave of refugees pushing into Europe an "Islamic invasion", during a parliamentary debate on Thursday that exposed deep divisions over how the Netherlands should respond to the crisis.

Wilders, who is outside the government but whose party is the most popular in opinion polls, called the wave of refugees arriving on the EU's Mediterranean shores and traveling north "an Islamic invasion".

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-netherlands-idUSKCN0RA0WY20150910

[scarletwoman]

9. Yes, I suppose I ought to be embarrassed by that. But frankly I'm not - here's why:

I've been pretty much a lifelong believer in cultural autonomy - that is, I've always believed that people who are united by a shared language and traditions ought to be free to govern themselves as they see fit, as long as they are not interfering in any other group's freedoms.

Therefore, I've long supported the Kurdish aspiration for their own state based in their traditional homelands. I supported the idea of the various countries, once subsumed under Soviet rule, to achieve their independence. I support the idea of sovereignty for all the various indigenous tribes of North America and their rights to preserve their cultural heritage and traditional governance on the lands left to them by treaty. I support the right of Ireland to be free of British rule. I supported the idea of Scottish independence - contingent upon whether they actually voted for it. Although the vote for independence lost, I still support their right to have made the decision they made.

I therefore also support the right of European nations to preserve and protect their cultural heritage, language, and traditions. If newcomers are not willing to respect and adapt to the long-standing cultures of their hosts, then they need to be shown the door.

[sibelian]

11. I applaud your last sentence.

Thank you .

[pampango]

12. Nations certainly should have the right to protect their cultural heritage, etc. They should also

have the right to pursue a multicultural nation with a diversity of languages, traditions and heritages if that is what they believe that would lead to a richer life for themselves. I think liberals tend to gravitate towards multiculturalism while conservatives tend to prefer the dominance of a majority culture. Nations have the right to pursue either. If they choose multiculturalism, they can expect an unhappy right as can be seen throughout Europe.

If newcomers are not willing to respect and adapt to the long-standing cultures of their hosts, then they need to be shown the door.

I think the vast majority of refugees and immigrants understand this. Obviously it takes some time to accomplish this as history shows. Those who refuse to adapt, e.g. the criminals in Cologne, should be arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned/deported.

[nashville_brook]

64. when multiculturalism includes marginalizing women thru violence, i'm out.

[Jim Beard]

15. Very good, you are my new friend!

[steve2470]

39. totally agree, well stated nt

[Jesus Malverde]

54. thank you...well put.

The silence otherwise is deafening.

[get the red out]

63. Thank you

The people already living in European nations have cultural rights also. The left in Europe has royally screwed up, and yes, people on the left can make mistakes.

[smirkymonkey]

84. Hear, hear!

[smirkymonkey]

83. This right here is basically the bottom line.

The politicians have completely ignored the wishes of their people.

[KittyWampus]

6. You mean this comment suggesting that Germans now begin arming themselves with guns?

Finally, after several days of refusing to report the biggest story of 2016 so far because it does not fit with its highly ideological driven narrative, this paper is allowing comments on a story which has shown its contempt for victims of sexual assault. It's predictable enough that the first writer to tackle this does not ask why the Mayor of Cologne and many on the left are blaming the victims themselves for their own rapes. The writer should at least acknowledge the only solution left available to citizens, when the police cannot protect them from clear danger and politicians blame victims for the crime simply because the perpetrator was a foreign male of arabic extraction, is to arm themselves. Please never print another article on women's rights ever again, you have no credibility on this issue and owe those on the opposite side of the political spectrum who have now been proved correct a massive apology. I write this as a guardian reader and buyer of 17 years and someone who has always voted for left of centre parties (both of which I won't be doing ever again).

[Bluenorthwest]

7. The OP flatly states that there are over 6,000 comments. Why would you think he 'means' this

one you have found? What's the logic in asking that question?

[smirkymonkey]

10. I have been reading the comment sections in the UK papers and I suppose

that is why I feel so strongly about this issue. They are not happy about this and are mostly blaming the left. I think we need to pay attention to that. They are much closer to the Islamisation of Europe than we are.

[DFW]

13. How Germany is reacting depends entirely on whom and where you ask.

In our town, just outside of Düsseldorf, we have had a "swimming pool" incident similar to others reported here, although no edict was issued against admission for refugees. Some of my friends who are retired spend their time volunteering to help with refugees, although that is where it ends. They do not invite them home, although, to be fair, before my wife retired, she was a social worker, and she said she would never invite her charges to our home, and at least a third of them were Germans born in Germany.

At the other end of the spectrum is another friend of ours now living in Köln. His wife left him nearly 30 years ago for a younger Moroccan (legal immigrant). He took it in stride, blamed his wife, not the Moroccan, and was not sympathetic when the Moroccan ended up mistreating his wife, who then re-appeared asking for financial support.

He was named chief correspondent for German Radio in Moscow from 1993 to 1998, and met a very nice Russian woman who is still his girlfriend. She has not moved to Germany. All her family is still in Russia and she speaks only Russian, and they both agree that she'd be very isolated if she moved to Germany. My wife and I both like her, although only I can converse with her, since my wife speaks no Russian. Our friend is comes from a working class family in the industrial town of Oberhausen. He is a Social Democrat from way back, and has voted SPD ever since he was of legal age.

He is also very highly educated, and went about learning Croatian when he started driving down there every summer. That's where we met in 1982. When he got his posting in Moscow, he learned Russian, which he found very difficult, but mastered. Knowing Croatian helped. A huge proponent of multiculturalism, when we meet for lunch or dinner in Köln, it is always at an ethnic restaurant. Usually Turkish or Kurdish, but sometimes Balkan or Vietnamese. However, he is positively livid at the current government's decision to bring in a million people who don't speak the language and don't know or respect Germany's way of life, and didn't take the measures to prepare them before settling them among the German population. He is now also retired, and worries about his fixed income pension, which is not generous like those of former members of the German or EU governments. His greatest joy these days is receiving friends from out of town and showing them around Köln, which dates back to Roman times. Any infringement on his ability to do this safely at all hours of the day or night drives him to angry ranting, something he never did. My wife is often there in her free time, and he now fears for her in Köln, since she looks 20 years younger than she is. She has never had a problem, but nor have we been there at night recently.

In our town, there have been minor incidents (like the swimming pool), but nothing major. The town is resentful at having the music school and a few sports facilities closed and turned into refugee centers, and our central town square has a number of bored young guys of Middle Eastern (not Turkish) origin wandering around at any time, but we have no real violent incidents. If we do, things will change overnight as they have elsewhere. We have gotten zero help from the Federal Government (Bundesregierung), and the state government (NRW in our case) has helped only to the extent that they tell us a day or two in advance as to how many more we should expect to arrive. It is tense, but nothing drastic has happened yet. As far as bad incidents not having occurred, no one expects it to remain this way. As far as the infringement on our lives goes, no one wants it to remain this way. The government's faceless bureaucrats, as overwhelmed and helpless as anyone else, tell the towns, in essence, "here they are, deal with it." To expect that every town will cheerfully do so is naïve at best.

[smirkymonkey]

24. Thanks for your perspective.

Very much appreciated.

[DFW]

32. I figured I'd write something

A perspective from someone who speaks the language and lives there rather than an army of armchair experts who speak no German and haven't spent as much as 20 days there cumulatively.

One post on DU last year proclaimed (with no justification) that Germany "needed to step up" and take as many refugees as could show up on their borders. "Got stepped on" is more like it, and by their own government to boot.

[steve2470]

36. I think Germany really overdid it this time...

I cannot fathom even us, a country of over 300 million, suddenly accepting a million refugees. It would overwhelm local communities and cause a lot of friction. I think the other countries near Syria had much more of an "obligation" to help, if you want to use that word. My understanding is they didn't want the refugees, but I could be wrong about that.

Hopefully the situation in Syria will improve and a lot of the refugees can begin to trickle back home. Either that, or fully commit to becoming Germans and not just Syrians living in Germany.

[DFW]

40. There wasn't much of ANY place nearby for them to go

It may not be well-known in the West, but there are enormous cultural differences in that area of the world. Turks and the Persians do not like Arabs in general. Iraq is basically in a 4 way civil war, Jordan is impoverished and is already stretched beyond its limits. And who does that leave? Lebanon is way too small, and Israel--no need to even explain that one. Turkey lets them transit, though it has plenty in refugee camps on Turkish soil, too. But Turkey prefers to send them on, and that means either the Caucasus, i.e. eventually Russia, or Greece, i.e, the EU.

And Germany accepting a million new refugees is the equivalent of the USA accepting 3.5 million new refugees. Think how THAT would go over here!

[steve2470]

43. It would NOT go over, period

We both know that even very small numbers of Syrian refugees have been opposed here. I can understand Germany's desire to help and perhaps some lingering guilt from WW2, but I think Germany had every right to set a strict predetermined quota on how many to accept. The other refugees would have to go to other countries. It's a very sad and very harsh situation brought on by Assad.

A very difficult situation all the way around, no matter how you slice it. I hope your leg is getting better ASAP!

[DFW]

52. Ditched the crutches!!

Still hobbling, but on my way back to mobility

[Dems to Win]

55. Good to hear!

Thanks for writing. I enjoy reading your on the ground reports.

[sibelian]

58. Thank you. That's very informative.

Many on the left in the UK are similarly apprehensive about the potential consequences and are now entirely furious at being called racist for expressing these concerns.

I hope you continue to contribute to these threads as they continue. I am quite sure they will continue.

[Jim Beard]

16. People assimilate much faster if when they arrive, they are not all living

in one area. They will learn the language and customs of the new nation if they are forced by location to interact with their new local neighbors.
In massive immigration many live in large cluster do not try to assimilate because they want to stay in their comfort zone.

I am seeing this with the Mexican immigrants with Dish Network with its massive Latino channel selection and grocery chains labeling in both languages. Why learn another language when there are bilinguals everywhere, doctors offices, government offices etc.

[snagglepuss]

20. It doesnt really matter whether newcomers live together or spread apart.

Several things that have changed which affected assimilation are cheap long distancephone rates and the internet. Back in the late 90's calling places like Latvia was $5/min even more 20 years before that. With such expensive phone calls people couldn't keep in touch with people overseas so people had to mingle. Now with internet and dirt cheap phone calls who needs new friends?

[scarletwoman]

17. I've read through 18 pages of reader comments, so far. It's certainly been fascinating.

This one in particular struck me - a good example of the anger being expressed on page after page:

You {meaning the author of the Guardian piece} "don't want to talk about it"? No, you, and the mind numbingly moronic liberal left commentariat don't want to talk about it.

You've not "talked about it" for years, decades even, certainly since the Rushdie affair. You are prepared to compromise free speech, the satire of religion. You compromise on attacks on Jews and gays. You have thrown away belief in the values of secularism and sexual equality for decades, because you might offend people who chose, that's right, chose to move to Europe from some economically stagnant cesspit of sexism and misogyny (that is why their countries are medieval shitholes - they've subjugated women as second class citizens for 1400 years and have not changed), and who demand, with threats of, and actual, violence, that we tolerate, accept and bow to their cultural norms.

You've defended the burka, you've defended sex segregation, and worse in schools.

You've called anyone who has questioned the mass importation of people from cultures so vastly different from that in Europe racists, and bigots. You sit there, on the sidelines, but with newspaper columns to preach from, wondering why much of the Left in Europe is totally, utterly discredited, when the answer lies in front of you, if only you looked in the mirror.

You compound your multiple crimes against real liberalism with fog:

The New Year’s Eve attacks are shocking at least partly because they’re confusing.

You call the square around the Dom "rough". Have you been there? Its the centre of the fucking city. Open to all.

You can't work out whether it was just mere robberies, or whether the sexual violence was uppermost in the minds of the gangs of young North African and Muslim men who carried them out.

But you're still confused, when you should be appalled. Appalled at the behaviour and attitudes of these sexist, repellent men, at their deeply, repulsively sexist cultural backgrounds.

And you should be deeply ashamed that your arrogance and moral superiority - "We bend over backwards to report it responsibly, to moderate the frothing rage bubbling up below the line" - which is based on nothing but sanctimony, denial and no guts to defend liberal values at all. (my bold)

Anyway, thank you for bringing this article - and especially the comment section - to our attention.

[Coventina]

18. A "rough area of Cologne"?!?!?! What a nitwit! It's a lovely area!

Unless it's changed dramatically since 2010 when I was there. But from the photos I've seen from this coverage it doesn't appear to be changed.

Thanks for posting that particular comment.

It sums up the frustrations I have very well!!

[scarletwoman]

19. I've only been to Frankfurt and Dusseldorf (sp?), but that was 35+ years ago,

So my memories are rather vague - plus I'm old.

But, yeah, I thought it was a great comment.

I've thought from the very beginning that the EU should have been funding food and shelter for the refugees in place, rather than encouraging immigration. But it seems that their capitalist elites had their eyes on a fresh source of cheap labor.

It was not too long ago - a year or two, I think - that I read an article about the problem of the lack of assimilation by the Turkish migrants in Germany, who had been brought in to augment the shrinking German workforce (due to low birth rates and an aging population). The article was pointing out that even after a generation, the Turks remained in segregated enclaves, not learning the German language, and not actually assimilating into the host country's culture at all. Instead, the article pointed out, the Turks had "colonized" Germany.

So Germany ought to have known better.

[Jim Beard]

23. This is what I am experiencing in my area.

[DFW]

29. The Turks are a different situation, and many, if not most have assimilated

While many keep their names and the more recent arrivals speak with an accent, plenty are the children or even grandchildren of the original "Gastarbeiter" of the 1950s, and speak flawless German. One is even the party head of the Greens at the moment. The Turks now living in Germany did not come under duress, and most have mastered the language. My wife took a short tour of Turkey in 2014, and said her tour guide spoke excellent German although he had never been to Germany. He said there were German language courses all over Turkey just because of the huge tourist traffic. There are Turkish actors, pop stars, comedians and cops all over Germany. They don't live just in enclaves. A Turkish name by itself won't raise an eyebrow in Germany any more than the name Rodriguez would in L.A.

[scarletwoman]

31. Thank you! I wish I could find the article I referred to in my post, but I have no idea where I read

it, or even how long ago. The bit about "colonizing" stuck with me, though.

I'm glad to know that Turkish assimilation is so much better than what that article led me to believe. I very much appreciate getting your first-hand view from Germany!

[DFW]

34. Most Turkish residents would look aghast at the concept of colonization

They either travel themselves back to Turkey frequently or know people who do, and know how much better the average Turk in Germany has it than the average Turk has it in Turkey. They may ask for mosques to be built (we have one in our town), but they compromise (they do not call to prayer over loudspeakers). They mostly know how counterproductive it would be to isolate themselves from a society that allowed so many of them to make it far beyond what they would be looking at back home--to the extent that they even call Turkey home any more. The guy who does my train tickets at the local travel agency is Turkish in appearance and name, but was born near Düsseldorf, speaks accent-free German, says he is "close to fluent" in Turkish, is "sort of" a Muslim, but smokes, drinks alcohol, eats pork, and does not bow down to Mecca. He has a German passport and, except for his name, is every bit as much a German as someone named Otto Müller.

The Germans, though very nationalistic, are very reticent to be pushy about it--most of them, anyway. The pictures of World War II are everywhere, and they like their relative prosperity and don't want it ruined by the destruction brought upon them by the actions of their grandparents or great-grandparents. They are very uncomfortable with being acknowledged to be a powerhouse of any kind, economic powerhouse though they are, because they don't want to be viewed as a threat to anyone any more. Nor do they want anyone coming in and being a threat to them, which makes them like pretty much like every other country in the world.

The next big test will be February 8th, "Rosenmontag," the height of Karneval. Those parts of Germany that celebrate Karneval will close down, and half the population will be on the streets celebrating the big parades. If there are attacks again, there will be a huge backlash, and many innocents will bear the brunt of it. Germany has the monumentous task of making clear to EVERY recent immigrant in no uncertain terms what is acceptable and what is not, and it needs to be done in the next two weeks. Handing out a piece of paper saying "please be a good boy" in Arabic won't cut it, either.

[DFW]

26. I'm down in Köln every couple of weeks

No, it hasn't changed at all in the last 5 years.

[Coventina]

68. Good to know!! Thanks!!

And, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your perspective on this issue.

[Jim Beard]

22. Wonderful post

I like it.

[DFW]

30. The angry letter is very indicative of how man Britons feel these days

Should Germany not get a better grasp on the people we have been "asked" to absorb by the German government, it is an attitude, already growing, that will gain hold with many voters, and the danger is that they will be low-hanging fruit for a German Le Pen to come along and pluck.

[sibelian]

59. Yes, that one struck me as well. In fact there are several very articuate posters on that thread...

Last edited Mon Jan 18, 2016, 04:27 PM - Edit history (1)

I think there are a lot of well-meaning American liberals, whose stance is very similar to Hinsliffe's, who are sadly incredibly naive about the extent and depth of the problem. Many people on the left in the UK are really furious, particularly because of Rotherham.

[smirkymonkey]

85. +1000

When is the left going to stop being so tone deaf on this issue?

[scarletwoman]

21. In one of the comments, someone posted a link to this Telegraph article, as a contrast to

the mealy-mouthed Guardian piece. It's actually quite good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12087780/Cologne-assault-Cultural-difference-is-no-excuse-for-rape.html

Cologne assault: Cultural difference is no excuse for rape

How long before the women of Cologne are advised to stay indoors, or even cover their heads?

By Allison Pearson
7:08PM GMT 07 Jan 2016
<snip>

There will be hundred of thousands of people today in the famously civilised city of Cologne, who will be in a state of shock about a similar “cultural misunderstanding”. The facts as we know them are profoundly troubling. On New Year’s Eve, in the precincts of the beautiful, twin-spired cathedral, up to 1,000 men of Arab or North African appearance sexually assaulted and robbed women who were enjoying the festivities. Around 100 complaints have been made to police so far, including two cases of rape. Eighteen-year-old Michelle said she and her friends were surrounded by 30 men, who molested them and then stole their belongings. Michelle said the men looked angry.

<snip>

This puts a liberal western society, which values women’s rights, and admits men from countries that don’t, in a bit of a bind, to put it mildly. It’s difficult to raise the issue without being howled down by cries of “Islamophobia”. Sensitivities were already running high in Germany following Angela Merkel’s open invitation to refugees, which saw more than a million people arrive over the past twelve months. Shamefully, it took several days for the German news media to mention the Cologne assaults. As for the police, they issued a comically self-satisfied report saying that a jolly, peaceful time had been had by all. Apart from the girls who had fingers stuck in their most intimate parts, presumably.

<snip>

In Germany, I regret to say, they are still pretending that there is a moral equivalence between racist attitudes and actual bodily harm to women. (Fear of racism trumps feminism every single time.) Ralf Jaeger, interior minister for North Rhine-Westphalia, epitomised that cultural cringe when he warned that anti-immigrant groups were using the attacks to stir up hatred against refugees. "What happens on the right-wing platforms and in chat rooms is at least as awful as the acts of those assaulting the women," he said.

Nein, nein, nein, mein Herr. Attitudes are not the same as deeds. Women in Europe have not fought for equal rights all these long years only to be told to start modifying their behaviour to avoid being molested. How long before the frauleins of Cologne are advised to stay indoors, or even cover their heads, out of respect to new arrivals? Sharia law shall not be imposed on us by stealth or cowardly accommodation with repellent thugs. And if anyone needs a “code of conduct” it is not German women, but men from conservative societies who must learn sharpish what our values entail, or return from whence they came.

I hope that I am wrong, but I fear that the grotesque mass attack on women in Cologne was not an isolated incident, but the first of many battles in a clash of civilisations.

Yes, I am well aware that the Telegraph (nicknamed the "Torygraph&quot slants to the right. To me that's beside the point here - THIS article is so many more times sensible than the Guardian article. Liberals better smarten up and start calling out illiberal behavior for what it is, instead of offering pathetic defenses of it in the name of "multiculturalism". If not, we lose to the Right.

[DFW]

28. It's worse than just losing to the Right

By burying our (speaking as a resident of Germany) heads in the sand, we on the left give nourishment and a new life to the previously discredited Right that they never would have acquired on their own. Our cherished secular society will give way to phony "Christians" who, just like our televangelists, are out for money, publicity and power, and are no more religious than your average atheist.

[scarletwoman]

33. What you're saying makes me think of Putin and his relationship to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Organized religion - as well as phony religiosity - is ever the faithful helpmeet of the Right.

Which makes it all the more ironic to see the Left defend Islam - in the name of multiculturalism, of course.

I'm all for learning about other cultures, but it doesn't mean I want to live in them.

[DFW]

35. Well put

Putin is no more piously religious than our Southern "Christian" politicians who adopt a very un-Christian attitude toward their fellow humans.

I was never a fan of religion, though I do not oppose any one's right to their own, provided they force it on no one else. As a Southerner, you tend to either embrace organized religion or disdain it. I am in the latter category, and am more with Lenin ("opiate of the masses&quot on that issue.

I agree that knowledge of different cultures is useful, but imposition of them is the height of arrogance. I was once asked to contribute to a funding of American Christians to go to India to try to convert Indians to Christianity. I said I would contribute an amount equal to the amount they were willing to contribute for Indians to come to America to convert Christians to Hinduism. Needless to say, I was not pressed further for any contributions to their cause.

[Yo_Mama]

69. And also more liberal. That's the issue we are warily circling and dodging.

We can't try to stick so closely to our values that we end up destroying them.

[Dems to Win]

70. There's the kick ass feminist article I've been looking for!

Thank you for the link

It's sad that it was only found in a right leaning paper. But lefty feminists are cowed by the fear of being called Islamaphobic, it seems. It's pretty disgusting.

[leftynyc]

72. There are many REAL

Feminists here and we've been posting and commenting on this a lot. We're taking heat but also noticing at there are more and more expressing disgust that women are seemingly being thrown under the bus in the name of political correctness. People are waking up to a serious clash of civilizations.u

[Dems to Win]

73. After Cologne, Feminism is Dead

After Cologne, Feminism is Dead http://quillette.com/2016/01/18/after-cologne-feminism-is-dead/

People have taken note of the mealy-mouthed pathetic responses of so many feminists

[sibelian]

79. "Lie back and think of multiculturalism..."

Ugh. It's apt. It's tasteless in the extreme but perfectly, horribly apt.

This article sums up my on feelings very well, thanks for posting it.

[blitzen]

25. yeah, right, let's be guided by the "voice of the people"....

or should I say the "volk"?

Didn't work out very well in the past. Probably should disregard that voice.

Was it "better to hear the voice of the people" when peasant crusaders slaughtered Jews in the Rhineland around 1100 AD? Those were some "extremely angry" volks.

[scarletwoman]

27. What exactly are you on about? 100s of women were sexually assaulted in Germany, Austria,

Switzerland and Finland on New Year's Eve THIS year. What the hell does 1100 AD have to do with it? What the hell does 1100 AD have to do with the Guardian article in the OP? Are you against women being sexually assaulted or not?

[steve2470]

41. um I think you need to fully explain your comments about Jews, just sayin, thank you nt

[steve2470]

44. Ok it's time for you to leave, you're an anti semite, MIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nt

[steve2470]

46. bullshit, time to leave before you get kicked out nt

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Too late.

Not surprising though. Sadly, no jury results.

[steve2470]

49. that one should have gotten a 7-0 slam dunk to hide and PPR

One of the worst antisemites I've seen at DU.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. MIRT got him before the jury came back.

He's a frequent flyer. But his last comment about "Semites" is an oft repeated load of shit spewed here.

[steve2470]

51. yea, I've seen it before and you saw my reaction lol nt

[sibelian]

66. That's sufficiently vague that I don't really know what you're criticising.

We're supposed to ignore the people when they're saying "How come we have to tolerate being sexually molested just because these guys come from a warzone (which, very often, they don't)?"

I don't see the question as unreasonable. My reason for linking to this article, and in particular the comments section is to demonstrate the very large gap in perception between the publically signalled positions acceptable to the media and political establishment and who they're presenting these signalled positions to.

"Was it "better to hear the voice of the people" when peasant crusaders slaughtered Jews in the Rhineland around 1100 AD? Those were some "extremely angry" volks."

I don't see the comparison. What is the actual equivalance that you are trying to draw here?

[Bad Dog]

38. Islamification of Europe my arse.

It's not happening, the biggest complaint about immigration to the UK concerns Poles and other East Europeans, even though they're doing the jobs British people refuse to do.

These people coming into Europe right now aren't migrants, they're refugees fleeing persecution from Islamic fundamentalists and a brutal dictator. There are laws governing asylum seekers.

Rotherham was terrible, but the perpetrators have all been locked up, unlike well heeled abusers who got off scot free.

Twelve former residents of children's homes say they were abused by Lord Janner, a BBC investigation has found, as criminal proceedings end.

The peer, who died before a court could examine claims of child abuse against him, regularly visited homes in Leicester in the 1970s and 1980s.

An ex-police officer says he reported suspicions about Lord Janner, a decade before police began a full inquiry.

Lord Janner, who had dementia and died aged 87 in December, had denied abuse.

A "trial of the facts", due to take place in April, has now been shelved by prosecutors.


A jury would have been asked to decide - without reaching a decision about whether he was guilty - if 22 alleged incidents of abuse from the 1960s to the 1980s had taken place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35304528

Over 1.1 million asylum seekers entered Germany last year, the vast majority are just concerned with getting on with their lives. And yes the few hundred who've been groping should be prosecuted, and if they're not asylum seekers they should be repatriated.

You Americans really are addicted to fear, once Communism collapsed you didn't know what to do with yourselves. Well you've found a nice bogeyman in Islamic fundamentalism, funded by Reagan and given legitimacy by Dubya's illegal invasion of Iraq which had a knock on effect throughout the ME. Never mind, as long as your arms dealers are doing well you can grip your guns full of piss and fear, safe in the knowledge that state of the art American weapons are being sold to Wahhabists in Saudi Arabia before being shipped on to IS to continue the cycle.

If and when the conflict ends in Syria don't expect the asylum seekers to hang about. They're going to want to go home, just like 2nd generation Nigerian migrants are doing.

The champagne is flowing at the bustling Fahrenheit rooftop bar with its sweeping views of Victoria Island's skyline. With glasses clinking young Nigerians returnees from the diaspora jostle to tell of their tales of the opportunities they've unearthed since coming home. They call them the repatriates - or more simply the "repats".

Among the guests at Fahrenheit, a hub for diaspora returnees started by a London-trained Nigerian lawyer and designer, was Kemdy McEarnest who had only moved to Lagos just seven months earlier. He talked exuberantly about how Nigeria was on the up and the range of opportunities he had developed for his own PR business since coming to the country. He said if Nigerians can return in large numbers then the country could really "grow".

Sitting alongside him was Aisha Shaba. I had earlier met Aisha when I had visited the set of "On the Couch", a talk show on the Nigerian Spice TV fashion channel. Aisha grew up in Hammersmith in west London and told me it had been a steep learning curve in the hustle and bustle of Nigeria since coming back four years ago after graduating from university.

She landed a part in the country's biggest soap opera, "Tinsel", and has now moved on to other acting parts in film and TV as well as working as a presenter. "A lot of people are coming back now. And I think that's an amazing thing," she said.

http://www.channel4.com/news/nigeria-the-repats-who-have-returned

[sibelian]

61. I am not American, thank you...

And I'm not going to be swayed by comparisons to Janner or any of the other well-known abuse rings in the UK.

"These people coming into Europe right now aren't migrants, they're refugees fleeing persecution from Islamic fundamentalists and a brutal dictator."

No.... they aren't. Substantial numbers of the attackers in the Cologne sex assaults, who were until recently holed up in refugee camps, are from Morocco and Tunisia, not Syria. At no point during this story has the idea that they are Syrian been propagated except by those like yourself, not by the victims, not by the German police, certainly not by online commentators.

As for the Islamification of Europe, if you can't see the mayor of Cologne's request for a "code of conduct for women" including covering up as a peculiarly familiar idea I don't know what to say to you.

[Bad Dog]

62. You're being unnecessarily alarmist.

And I doubt Janner's and Cyril Smith's antics have received as much cover as the Rotherham ring.

I've already pointed out that non asylum seekers should be deported if involved in such activity. And I bet the Cologne mayor is wishing he'd kept his big mouth shut.

there is a humanitarian disaster going on in Syria right now, and demonising a whole group of mostly decent people only helps the extremists on both sides.

The real threat facing Europe right now is the rise of the far right.

We're not scared of Moslems in the UK. It makes life so much easier.

[sibelian]

65. ... err.... yes we ARE scared of Muslims in the UK. Or at least some of us. I live there too.

The issue about which you might think I'm being alarmist isn't so much that other unwholesome activities are gong on under everyone's noses, the issue is that the LEFT, who are supposed to be the champions of the rights of the oppressed are preventing analysis of the unwholesome activities of a group of "oppressed" people, or, worse, smearing the aura of "oppression" over unwholesome groups who are not in fact oppressed at all. That's the problem that concerns me, and i really don't know why you think I'm being unnecessarily alarmist, have you seen any major mea culpa from those on the UK left responsible for smoke-screening Rotherham? I haven't. There has been not a single article or public commentary anywhere about the obvious ranking system developing among the left's oppressed in which the ranking system has been addressed. Muslims trump women. And in Rotherham Muslims trumped working class young women, which is even more disturbing. It is an OBVIOUS consequence of labelling victims as automatically virtuous. It's a pseudo-intellectual process and it needs to be dismantled, it's enabling abuse. Why do you think so many working class people are turning to UKIP? These people should be part of the UK left's stronghold.

We have reached the stage where child abuse is less important than "racism". There is no denying this, Rotherham could not have happened if that were not the case.

How far does this have to go? Do we have to wait until gay pubs in England are swarmed, and the patrons restrained and thrown from buildings? Do you think I'm being alarmist in that anticipation? Did you anticipate Rotherham? Did you anticipate Cologne?

(Just in case you think I'm weird, I bought my cigarettes from Mr Tariq this morning, Muslim shopkeeper, 1 block from my house, have done for a decade, great guy, best bud)

[Bad Dog]

67. You're talking nonsense

Last edited Mon Jan 18, 2016, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)

Alarmist claptrap. The Rotherham abusers have been tried and locked up. The establishment ones are still at large, the prosecution of a ragtag collection of DJs and TV presenters doesn't count.

UKIP is made up of a bunch of old gits who think we've still got an empire and a load of xenophobic idiots too scared to join the BNP.

You don't sound very English, we don't use phrases like "1 block from my house."

[Denzil_DC]

71. Dude, you're arguing with someone

who's based an entire post, on a US forum that's not exactly short of outrage on this and related issues right now, on the rantings of those who have nothing better to do than hang out in the Guardian's comment sections as if they're representative of anything meaningful other than who's got spare time, Internet access and an axe to grind. The vast majority of people in the UK - let alone a meaningful section of "the left", because I think that ship sailed long ago for the Guardian's online presence - don't even read the Guardian, let alone read or post on newspaper comment sections. It's kind of meta all over, because here we are.

We have issues in the UK around race and immigration. I'd like to think as Brits we generally keep a level head about it all and try to muddle through.

I'd also like to think we don't make a habit of wandering into forums frequented by those largely from another country that has a different and no less chequered history, not least with the Middle East and the politics surrounding it, and throwing fuel on a fire that's burning brightly enough as it is, but evidently not all of us are of the same mind.

I'm not saying stop. As a fellow Brit, living at the opposite end of the country to you, I agree with you on almost all you've said (and you may have seen enough of my postings on the UK group to understand a little of where I'm coming from). Just that with very few exceptions, nobody who gets involved in this particular rash of threads seems to be looking for much more than confirmation of their existing views.

[sibelian]

82. Whatever meaning you wish to take from the comments section I referenced is up to you.

It's very clear to ME what it represents.

"We have issues in the UK around race and immigration. I'd like to think as Brits we generally keep a level head about it all and try to muddle through."

No, we don't. Level heads are VERY thin on the ground in the UK on the subject of immigration on either side as I'm sure you cannot possibly be unaware of, immigration has been an extremely heated debate in the UK for some time now.

"I'd also like to think we don't make a habit of wandering into forums frequented by those largely from another country that has a different and no less chequered history, not least with the Middle East and the politics surrounding it, and throwing fuel on a fire that's burning brightly enough as it is, but evidently not all of us are of the same mind."

...

Perhaps you are able to explain to me how I am responsible for this alleged fire.

[Denzil_DC]

86. "Perhaps you are able to explain to me how I am responsible for this alleged fire."

I've seen you on any number of threads expressing fears that some Muslim's going to molest your catsitting neighbour, that "they" are coming to take over the UK/Scotland and molest and beat us all up and worse, we're all doomed etc. etc.

That's adding fuel to the fire of generally only some Americans' concerns on this forum and presenting a false view of the situation and perceptions in the UK in my experience. Got that?

I live in Scotland, as I believe you do. We've long had problems with race. They've almost always involved white, often sectarian, thugs setting about those who look like they're from another race, including blameless Muslims. I'm not from any visually identifiable minority, but walking around any of our cities and towns, I'm much, much more likely to be set upon by indigenous neds on the razz than any Muslim individual or group (and the same goes for my wife, and my friends, of whatever gender or race).

Given that we have a long record of not having an at all serious problem with Muslim radicalization in Scotland, I don't see that changing, and I find your implications that it's happening or going to happen a slur on my home country and its proud record of constructive assimilation of minorities. I do not recognize this concern you keep expressing among those who hoped for independence. In fact, I believe humanitarian concerns and distrust of the rightwing agenda promoted by the yellow press like the Mail and Express are more likely to be the norm, because we've suffered from it ourselves. If a bunch of eejits crowdstormed an online comments section on a particularly charged issue, I'm not surprised one bit. Welcome to the age of social media and online opinion manipulation at the click of a mouse or tap of a fondleslab.

We have a refugee programme that's very strictly controlled and already follows many of the strictures that even most of those on these threads who have expressed concern about immigration consider sensible. The UK hasn't exactly thrown its doors open to all-comers, and that's not likely to change.

Now, I'm not going to get into even more of your series of long exchanges about this because I find your attitudes and conduct here extremely distasteful, and each time such an exchange happens, it just bumps these threads as they were about to sink out of sight. So go use somebody else to try to maintain visibility for this spectacle.

If I'd wanted to converse with you, I'd have addressed you in this thread. I have absolutely no wish to.

So good day, sir. I said good day.

[sibelian]

88. You mystify me.

You really do.

You are absolutely correct about Scotland's previous problems with race. I haven't said ANYTHING about Scotland, or it's record on immigration.

"I find your implications that it's happening or going to happen a slur on my home country" - WHY? I've said nothing about Scotland! I've been talking constantly about Rotherham and Cologne!

Oh, I give up...

[sibelian]

81. The process whereby the Rotherham abusers were ENABLED has NOT been addressed.

THAT is the problem, and comparisons to other paedophile rings are irrelevant to that process as THOSE rings are protected by different structures. There is no "sliding scale" of visibility here in which certain rings are preferable targets for scrutiny based on the ethnicity of the ring - all paedophile rings are morally equal as far as I'm concerned and structures protecting them are to be removed. This means the propensity for attributing racist motives to people alerting the state, the general public and Western civilisation at large to the presence of paedophile rings because the alerts are being directed at individuals already at risk from far-right elements must END, because it is more important that children are safe from sexual abuse than that the left retains its public image for the sake of a national conversation on Islam.

Alerts to the existence of the Rotherham abusers were circumvented by the left wing inability to distinguish between truthful accusations of criminality from fiction. We KNOW this is the case because the authorities to which the crimes were alerted HAVE SAID SO. They have admitted the problem. This process emerges because some elements within the left wing think Muslims are not people, with the same capacity for good and evil as every other human on the planet, but rather thinks of them as small, helpless, brown human-shaped lumps of plasticine that fit nicely into the heroic narratives that make individual liberals feel good about themselves in the process of protecting them. This is utterly impossible to deny now. We have moved from Rotherham to COLOGNE with the SAME ATTITUDE INTACT.

Clearly I am NOT being unnecessarily alarmist as the culture that prevented alerts to the Rotherham abuse is extant, in evidence and self-protecting, anyone can see this from the response to the culture clash between misogynistic Islam and Western liberalism during the reporting on Cologne. Cologne WAS NOT REPORTED ON in the liberal media in the UK and elsewhere until it was impossible NOT to report it. This is an extension of the culture that enabled Rotherham. The left MUST accept responsibility for this enabling process and must END IT.

Criticism of Islam is NOT somehow inherently right-wing. Do not confuse me with Nick Griffin, thanks, although to be frank I'm almost at the stage now of wondering if such comparisons would be all that insulting given that that guy started talking about Rotherham before anyone else and correctly identified the problems, this makes criticism of him less valid and any vague unwholesomeness we're all supposed to attribute him with less meaningful. I think he is an idiot. But, he started talking about Rotherham before anyone else. It is becoming difficult for me to continue holding the position that he is a purely malevolent idiot. We now CANNOT avoid considering what the situation in Rotherham might have been had he been listened to. Can we?

Blameless Muslims must be protected from bigotry, but I am not protecting Islam to the extent that its followers use the generalised hesitancy of the liberal West to cause offense as cover under which to commit grotesque crimes of abuse and I am NOT going to be told that I'm being "unnecessarily alarmist" as this deep and abiding need to protect people who have not even been established as actually having escaped a warzone has clearly resulted in increased levels of sexual abuse, and, recently, in Hamburg, Helsinki and Cologne, as well as other cities, has enabled public sexual abuse on an unprecedented scale.

Do you understand me? The reticence to attribute the blatantly obvious misogyny that we all seem to think is OK "over there" in the ME, has enabled sexual abuse in the West. Pretending these men will come to the West with all-new attitudes towards women is farcical in the face of it. I'm not talking about the imaginary pogrom against Islam. There ISN'T ONE. The pogrom is IMAGINARY. There is NO CRUSADE. No-one in the West is seriously trying to eradicate Islam. New mosques are built yearly. The idea that Muslims in the West are oppressed is a farce. It's just false. I'm talking about the increased prevalance of sexual abuse in Europe because of the thoroughly bugfuck insistence of some on the left who refuse to believe that people from a society that find women, gay people and Jews inferior will continue to do so in the West as if Western culture just transfers itself from mind to mind by osmosis. It obviously doesn't. If it did, we wouldn't be talking about Rotherham, Helsinki and Cologne. Doesn't it strike you as slightly peculiar that all these attacks in different cities occurred at the same time, incidentally? Or is that just a coincidence?

UKIP is supported mostly by ex-left wing people. These are people who should be voting Labour. They aren't anymore.

I'm not English, I'm Scottish. Please feel free to look at my posts elsewhere on this site to confirm this.

[Bad Dog]

87. Rotherham was about the police not believing the victims.

That's the problem, not any perceived PC gone mad. The abusers chose their victims very well, young girls from broken homes, many of whom had already been involved in petty crime. That's the real scandal and what actually needs to be addressed. It was also a factor in the Janner case.

Admittedly the need to to appear racist amongst some councillors was a contributory factor, but it was not the main reason by a long chalk. And considering all the sound and fury from red tops and people like you, it's unlikely to happen again.

Now I've got the measure of you, I'd rather not take up your offer of reading any of your previous posts. To be honest I couldn't be arsed to read all of your last one. You're still talking alarmist paranoid nonsense, like the bloke down the pub who thinks travellers have dogs because it means more benefit money.

[sibelian]

89. "Now I've got the measure of you" - no, you don't need the *measure* of me, pal.

:-/

"And considering all the sound and fury from red tops and people like you, it's unlikely to happen again."

It did happen again. At New Year, in Cologne. On a wider scale, and in public and it wasn't reported on responsibly, again. And you people are here pretending I'm the bad guy, again.

So it's going to carry on happening, probably, isn't it?

[Bad Dog]

90. Because Cologne is part of the UK.

You really are full of it. You can try to justify your bigotry as much as you want, but you're not fooling anyone.

[smirkymonkey]

74. +1000

[Are_grits_groceries]

53. If you are guided by the comment section of any medium, you are going the wrong way IMO.

They do reflect sentiment in one way, but it is not a place for thoughtful exchange of ideas. There are sane voices but they are lost in a sea of anonimity.
There is a reflection of a general sense but only in a nebulous way.

[Jesus Malverde]

56. Meta!...

[sibelian]

57. Well, perhaps I should have said be *informed* rather than guided.

Sorry. You have a point.

[sibelian]

76. I hope you did actually READ the comments section, didn't you?

?

[Are_grits_groceries]

77. Yes.

I didn't read all but I sampled them.

[smirkymonkey]

75. K&R

[Blue_Tires]

78. The British left is falling out of love with the Guardian??

this truly is bizarro world...

[sibelian]

80. The Guardian has stopped being the Guardian. It's not the newspaper I remember.

It's stuffed with clickbait and puff pieces.

It's coverage of the independence referendum was... idiosyncratic. Spin in every direction imaginable.