Has Odin forsaken us?

[Photographer]

And there lies the problem with American politics. We have such a large block of superstitious MF'rs out there that the stupid can change elections, especially on the congressional level.

Other than education, how can we change this?

What? Odin isn't real? Prove it!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. I don't know about winning elections but

arrogantly insulting people's beliefs and culture is an electoral loser.

[Photographer]

2. So you endorse holding the stupid and misconceptions

near and dear to win?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. Believe what you choose to believe.

That's what it's all about (regardless of what the Hokey-Pokey may tell you) but if you're going to act like an insulting ass with no respect for the opinions and beliefs of others then you shall be treated like an insulting ass.

At least then have enough emotional maturity to not complain about the result.

[Photographer]

5. Sorry, but to coddle 15th C superstitions

does no one no favor. Those are not beliefs, they are stupid on steroids.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. Arrogance does no one a favor and is self-destructive.

[Photographer]

8. Beleiving in gravity is not arrogance.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. I'm not aware of any mainstream religious arguments against gravity.

Why do you need to fabricate such silliness to make yourself feel superior?

[Photographer]

13. And why would one think that a magic man in the sky

should be arbiter and judge of all things human?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. There's more good reasons to believe that than there is to believe

it's okay to fabricate arguments no one has made just to feel superior.

[TipTok]

42. What are those good reasons exactly?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. Actually, there are no good reasons for lying just to feel superior.

[TipTok]

48. Probably...

You said that there were more of them than there were for fabrication.

Even if fabrication has zero good reasons, then 'more' suggests that there is at least one 'good reason' to believe in a deity.

What is it / are they?

[jonno99]

53. Here is one:

As I alluded to down-thread, non-religious states (those who don't believe in a deity) have killed more people (their own populations included) than religious states. Those are cold, hard, indisputable facts. Agreed?

If you are going to be perfectly rational, then you'd have to fear the non-religious more than the religious.

[TipTok]

54. Ahhh.. the old standby...

Last edited Thu Jan 21, 2016, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Setting aside all of that, are you suggesting that folks should believe in the supernatural just to keep them from acting naughty? That certainly isn't proof that the supernatural exists.

[jonno99]

61. Ah, the old dodge (the comic strip). And please

note that I did not specify atheists. However, since you brought it up, it should be noted that atheism was not only a major tenet of both Soviet as well as Chinese communism - but also Khmer Rouge ideology as well. Obviously atheism doesn't make someone a despot, but comparatively neither does being religious automatically mean you're screwing up society either (you can't have it both ways).

You are correct of course; obviously someone's belief in something doesn't mean it exists. There is that whole law of averages thing to consider though...

[TipTok]

66. As stated before...

Setting aside that no one mass murders in the name of atheism...

Are you suggesting that it's better to believe in something magical to ensure good behavior?

[jonno99]

68. You're being a bit disingenous I think. To state that no one murdered in

the name of atheism is playing word games. True, murders didn't occur to satisfy atheism per se, they occurred because the offenders refused to toe the party line - which often was, what?

To renounce their religious beliefs is on the list...

[TipTok]

69. There is no per se....

The reason folks get slaughtered for not giving up their religious beliefs is because a) someone is trying to force another set of religious beliefs on them or b) conforming to the political power they fall under

[Nuclear Unicorn]

71. The argument has been: abolish religion and we abolish history's worst crimes.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. may not have killed in the name of atheism but their atheism did not relieve them of the impulse to kill as religion is charged with inciting.

However, if the absence of religion does not bring relief from such monstrosities then it would be an error to claim religion is the cause of those monstrosities.

I would suggest Power is the cause of humanity's crimes. Holy wars, Inquisitions, Cultural Revolutions, Purges -- they all share one thing in common: One group seeking to exert power over all competitors and dissidents. I'd wager that the religiously faithful who do not seek power can live quite peaceably beside atheists who do not seek power.

And, the reason people seek power is because they are arrogant enough to think they deserve it at the expense of others.

[jonno99]

75. "...their atheism did not relieve them of the impulse to kill as religion is charged with inciting"

Well spoken - the argument in the a nutshell.

[cleanhippie]

82. Has anyone, anywhere, ever made the argument that atheism relieves the impulse to kill?

Don't answer that, we both already know the answer.

Religion was the motivating factor for religious deaths, and still is in many parts of the world.
There are many other motivating factors that cause people to kill others, but not a single one of them is lack of belief.

But you knew that already.

[jonno99]

90. "...but not a single one of them is lack of belief." Really? What prevents you from

speeding through a stop sign when there is no traffic to be seen? Your love of traffic laws?

Of course not. It is not our lack of love for road signs that "cause" us to break the law, rather it is the knowledge of consequence that keeps us law-abiding.

But you knew that already.

[cleanhippie]

91. Are you ok?

Because you are making no sense here.

[jonno99]

92. I thought it was self explanatory. You made a claim which I refuted.

You made the claim:
"There are many other motivating factors that cause people to kill others, but not a single one of them is lack of belief. "

I then provided one simple example where "belief" affects our behavior.

I'll try again: if I don't "believe" I am ever going to be charged with a moving violation, I'm not going to obey a stop sign - if there is no traffic. Why would I?

You don't think the same can be said about murder - that fear of consequence can't affect one's actions?

[cleanhippie]

93. Refuted? Do you know what that word actually means?

Because incoherent false equivalencies are not refutations.

And yeah, 'believing' one won't get a traffic ticket is just like 'believing' in a deity.

[jonno99]

94. So, just to be clear: you don't think that fear

of consequence ("eternal judgment", whatever you want to call it) ever stopped one person from killing another?

This is what you stated:
"There are many other motivating factors that cause people to kill others, but not a single one of them is lack of belief. "

[cleanhippie]

95. I don't think that lack of belief in a god has ever been the motivation to kill another.

Otoh, believers HAVE killed others because they didn't believe in their God. Believers have been killing in the name of their God since the first believer came along.

[jonno99]

96. You're dodging. You initially responded to my quote from NU:

"...their atheism did not relieve them of the impulse to kill as religion is charged with inciting..."

you responded (in part) with:
"There are many other motivating factors that cause people to kill others, but not a single one of them is lack of belief. "

Nowhere has anyone in this thread argued that "...lack of belief in a god has ever been the motivation to kill another."

The esence of my argument (NU's really) from the moment you inserted yourself into this conversation, is that fear of consequences is a universally accepted behavior modifier. Do you dispute that fear is a behavior modifier?

However, if someone is convinced that THEY are at the top of the "power pyramid", then their behavior will not be modified by "fear of consequence", because if there is no eternal judge, there are no eternal consequences. That makes sense - yes?

Bottom line: those historical figures who saw themselves at the top of the "power pyramid" (Pol Pot, Marx, Lenin, Mau, etc.) produced unequaled carnage.

Do "believers" kill? Certainly. But no one has argued otherwise. You however, have been working diligently to obscure the unsavory historical actions - carried out on a much larger scale - by some of the most famous "unbelievers".

[cleanhippie]

102. You go to great lengths in your efforts to lump religion in with the many other 'behavior modifiers'

as you like to call them, when it's religion that stands alone in it's own distinct category of 'behavior modifiers', only because it enjoys such a societal privilege with all it's protections.

Is there something special about religion, something different perhaps, that sets it apart? Or is 'religion' really no different affliction or ideology as say, schizophrenic delusion or communism? It can't be both, so which is it? Seriously, I'd like an answer to that question.


You take exception to my response to

"...their atheism did not relieve them of the impulse to kill as religion is charged with inciting..."

with

"There are many other motivating factors that cause people to kill others, but not a single one of them is lack of belief. "

The idea that atheism somehow relieves a person of the 'impulse to kill' is absurd, which is my point. Atheism is the lack of belief in a diety. Period. It's not an ideology, it's not a worldview, it's not anything. It was not the motivation for

(Pol Pot, Marx, Lenin, Mau, etc.)

to commit their atrocities, as you imply, some other 'behavior modifier' was.

[jonno99]

104. still dodging...or you're really unable to face the facts.

Again, no one on this thread has stated that atheism was a motivation - for anything.

atheism:
" It's not an ideology, it's not a worldview, it's not anything. "

How can anyone argue with that? I can't.

Good day to you...

[hifiguy]

98. Love it.

That went straight into my folder of topical cartoons. Thanks!

[TipTok]

101. I left off the bottom half by accident...

There now though...

[TipTok]

59. Double whammy from The Oatmeal...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

72. When cartoons become Holy Writ

[cleanhippie]

81. So you are saying that it was lack of religion that led to those deaths?

Seriously?

[cleanhippie]

80. And yet here you are...

Feeling superior yet?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. What lie have I told?

[TipTok]

23. Pretty please with sugar on top...

Please quit creating policy in the hopes of pleasing an imaginary primitive desert tribal god...

Better?

How long do folks have to tolerate rules and laws and restrictions on their life because someone with authority is trying to get on the good side of their imaginary friend?

[LanternWaste]

25. is your imaginary construct more real than the imaginary constructs held by others?

Is that like "Please quit creating policy in the hopes of securing imaginary and mythical borders which exist nowhere but as red lines a map?."

Or is your imaginary construct more real than the imaginary constructs held by others?

[TipTok]

26. Indeed they are...

Borders actually have an affect on the world for good and bad in varying degrees (ranging from near impenetrable to virtually non existent)

Less so for your favorite deity who is really really really interested in what folks do with their naughty bits...

[cleanhippie]

83. Oh, FFS. That wins the prize for biggest false equivalency of the day.

[cleanhippie]

79. Why should patently absurd beliefs and opinions be respected at all?

Respect is granted for the right to believe/have opinion.

The belief/opinion itself must earn respect.

[edhopper]

9. What do you do when those dearly held beliefs

result in oppressive laws. How do you fight that without challenging those beliefs.

"Sure, nothing wrong with thinking abortion is murder and we are perpetrating a holocaust of the unborn, just don't do anything to change the law about it."

Think that will work.

How about "Yes, it's okay to think that same sex marriage is an abomination that will unleash the wrath of the Lord on us, but just let it go."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

11. Debating is one thing. Mocking and ridiculing with a smug sense of superiority is another.

[edhopper]

21. So you don't think some of those beliefs are worth of ridicule?

you would never mock Robertson or Franklin Graham or Fred Phelps?

I happen to think being open and accepting of Gay people is superior to saying they are going to hell.

You disagree?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. The problem with zealotry is

it doesn't matter how near one may be to the truth the zealotry itself becomes the only thing remembered.

[edhopper]

43. the problem with not confronting barbaris beliefs

is we end up with horrible laws.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. The absence of religion will not promise us the presence of good law. Secular law is just as

capable of being stupid and tyrannical.

[edhopper]

47. And just like challenging religious bullshit

we challenge the beliefs behind those too.

Like Trickle down economics, or open carry or climate deniers.

Or does religion get a special pass from you?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. It's not so much that religion gets a special pass as it is

evangelical atheists no longer get a special pass.

I've had plenty of missionaries knock on my door and after politely explaining I was not interested they politely went on their way. Evangelical atheists seem a tad more -- shall we say -- persistent.

[edhopper]

50. you've had atheists knock on your door?

do they also preach from street corners, flood the airwaves with long sermons and ask for money?

Those annoying atheists.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

52. You think insulting people over the internet is superior to sermons on the air?

'Tis a strange creed, indeed.

[edhopper]

55. You can simple walk away and not respond

On the internet I am engaging people who choose to engage.

I am not bothering people at home or screaming at people in the streets.


You think challenging a belief is insulting? Why, cause religion? What about those other conservative beliefs i mentioned. Do I get to challenge those. or is that insulting too?

[jonno99]

62. "You can simple walk away" - yes but can you? Methinks no. You are compelled to evangelize...nt

[edhopper]

67. I don't evangelize

I challenge people's beliefs.

I don't start the conversation.

I leave that for believers.

[cleanhippie]

85. I love it when believers try to equivocate.

Simple Definition of evangelize

: to try to convert (a group or area) to a different religion (especially Christianity)

Full Definition of evangelize

evan·ge·lizedevan·ge·liz·ing

transitive verb

1: to preach the gospel to

2: to convert to Christianity
intransitive verb
: to preach the gospel

Fail.
Big. Fat. Fail.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. You could not watch TV sermons but you still complained about them.

In fact, I've never seen a TV sermon because I would have to actively seek one out. Yet, we occupy a community space here in DU and so many insist I pray at the altar of materialism lest I be branded an unbeliever. Apparently that should even determine the extent of my political rights.

All in the name of tolerance and enlightenment, you see; but to me it looks more like motes and beams.

[cleanhippie]

84. Evangelical atheists?

Do they knock on your door, too?

[pinboy3niner]

4. I believe in him!

Oh, wait...I thought you said Odie.

[KamaAina]

6. You call the Flying Spaghetti Monster 'Odin"?

[Iggo]

12. .

[Photographer]

15. We are talking about Odin here. Not one of the other Gods.

[cpwm17]

16. Most people in this world believe in some sort of metaphysical power.

It is stupid to call most people in this world "superstitious MF'rs" and it reflects poorly on your morals.

[Photographer]

17. I would disagree.

It would reflect on reality. Pointing out a reality to most people in the world should be considered a service.

[cpwm17]

22. Calling people that think differently than you "MF'rs" is selfish and wrong.

People that take that path tend to have questionable skills in telling right from wrong.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. Then isn't it ironic that so many nations which take a religious path actually punish people who

think differently? It seems they also lack discernment and fail to tell right from wrong.

[jonno99]

46. Wow - why limit the scope to "religious states"? The communist (non-religious) states

are responsible for much more death & suffering against those who "thought differently".

[Photographer]

73. Rome and the whole of Europe?

from the 12th C?

[jonno99]

74. Pikers - compared to the communists...nt

[valerief]

51. Most people know better but don't admit it, because loudmouths

shout them down.

[403Forbidden]

18. Why must you attack the super-natural and un-explainable innate supremacy by which my deity...

...rules the Earth?

[TacoD]

19. Thought this was about DUer Odin2005

I thought he had forsaken DU but he recently returned http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=180373

[OriginalGeek]

20. Well I don't see any Ice Giants

Maybe Odin figures he did his job. He's gone golfing.


edit~meant to reply to thread. Too lazy to delete and repost

[Odin2005]

57. Oh hai!

[irisblue]

63. hail Odin!

[TacoD]

64. what's up allfather? (nt)

[LanternWaste]

24. What? Politics isn't real? prove it!

Odd... because politics is as imaginary as religion. Nations, too. However, I do realize we all of us rationalize one set of the imaginary as somehow more "real" than another set of the imaginary, as we manage our daily, personal, and family lives around the imaginary to such a degree as to defy, well... the imagination.


What? Politics isn't real? prove it!

[jonno99]

27. How can we change narrow-minded opinions? I'd start with the OP...nt

[TipTok]

28. Patton Oswalt had a quality response...

[jonno99]

29. So if I respond with "well, Oswalt is f'ing stupid!", what have we solved? nt

[TipTok]

31. We continue to have a conversation...

If you want to advance the position that beliefs with no foundation in fact or logic deserve equal respect as those with verifiable evidence and a basis in reality feel free...

[jonno99]

34. LOL - so in your opinion, "you're position is f'ing stupid" - is a good conversation starter? nt

[TipTok]

35. I wouldn't start that way...

Start in a civil manner and then when something 'f'ing stupid' is said, especially with no hint of facts to back it up, it should be called out as such.

There are lots of ways and varying degrees of diplomacy to relate that a belief is 'f'ing stupid'.

[jonno99]

38. Now you're just tap-dancing. If Oswalt gave a "quality response", why not "start that way"? nt

[TipTok]

40. Cause precedes affect...

I have to hear the stupid idea before I can call it a stupid idea...

[cleanhippie]

87. In this case, "you're (sic) position is f'ing stupid" has already been established.

But please, do continue.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. people believe Obama is from Kenya, is that worthy of respect or is it fucking stupid?

I once met people who believed they could achieve a 'Breatharian Lifestyle'. This meant no food or water, just breath would sustain them at the end of their program. They believed this. It was fucking stupid. It's fairly easy to demonstrate that people believe things that are not worthy of and should not be respected. So Patton has a point, obviously. Racists, they believe their supremacist ideas. Should this be honored, is it narrow minded to say that's worse than fucking stupid? Tell us.

[TipTok]

37. I suspect it just their beliefs...

The obviously mistaken beliefs of others are likely free game.

[cleanhippie]

86. That you're unable to comprehend what he is saying?

[el_bryanto]

32. I respect your right to believe in Odin

And even though I am a Christian, if the values and positions you take politically align with my own ideas of good government I would vote and support you for political office. That's what America is all about.

Bryant

[jonno99]

39. ^^ THIS ^^ nt

[mikeysnot]

36. Heill Odin

[nomorenomore08]

65. Never thought I'd see Burzum posted on DU. My hat is off to you, good sir!

[mikeysnot]

89. Hail!

[hifiguy]

99. +1 Pretty kool music.

[Odin2005]

56. Did someone call my name???

(PS: insulting religious people isn't nice)

[KamaAina]

58. I dunno. Why don't you ask him?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=180373

[Odin2005]

60. Heheheheh

[ms liberty]

76. Yes.

He's currently enjoying the nice clean linens at an old folks home in Britain, where the nursing staff thinks he's a mean, demanding old bugger who's been there forever and won't die. No one knows he's the real Odin, and they wouldn't believe him if he told them. So he makes them change his bed linens daily.

[opiate69]

77. Forsaken us? I don't see any Ice Giants around...

[hifiguy]

100. Great minds, it appear, think alike.

[opiate69]

103. Indeed, they do, old friend!

[sarisataka]

78. Is something wrong with Odin's foreskin??

I highly doubt that the Allfather would have anything but the healthiest of foreskins! Even more, what would a case of phimosis have on American politics?- Nothing

As for education, if, and I do not believe it would happen, I am sure Odin, as the god of healing and knowledge among many other things, is well aware of paraphimosis and is fully able to take all needed precautionary measures.

To mere humans, these may be causes for concern in those with foreskins but Odin, and his very REAL foreskin...

What?

Forsaken? Oh,

[hifiguy]

97. I don't see any frost giants around.