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Thu Jan 21, 2016, 08:13 PM

Two German feminists debate Cologne in Der Spiegel


http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-feminists-debate-cologne-attacks-a-1072806.html

Schwarzer: The debate over sexual violence has re-emerged as a result of that night in Cologne. Even Germany's justice minister, who for years allowed necessary reforms to tighten Germany's rape laws torot in a drawer, has pulled them out again. But when you only speak using generalizations, you run the danger of denying the specific. In recent decades, millions of people have come to us from cultural groups within which women have absolutely no rights. They do not have a voice of their own and they are totally dependent on their fathers, brothers or husbands. That applies to North Africa and that applies to large parts of the Middle East. It isn't always linked to Islam. But since the end of the 1970s, at the beginning of the revolution in Iran under Khomenei, we have experienced a politicization of Islam. From the beginning, it had a primary adversary: the emancipation of women. With more men now coming to us from this cultural sphere, and some additionally brutalized by civil wars, this is a problem. We cannot simply ignore it.

Wizorek: But it is also wrong to look only at the origin of the perpetrators. When I see the kinds of people that are now jumping into the debate over women's rights, it also includes, among others, the same politicians who, during the #aufschrei debate in 2013, said that women shouldn't be so demanding. Now that men with immigration backgrounds have committed sexual assaults, it is being instrumentalized in order to stigmatize them as a group. I think that is racist.


Worth reading, I'd suggest. Adds quite a bit of perspective.

18 replies, 2523 views

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 09:37 PM

1. I'm definitely an Alice Schwartzer feminist nt

 

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 09:40 PM

2. I must agree. She seems to me to speak from experience.


Anne seems to me to have too much of a propensity to use a set of pre-determined tropes in her analysis.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:03 PM

3. An article from a Muslim woman in Germany

 

It can kind of be summed up as "Welcome to My World, women of Germany"

http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-new-years-eve-in-cologne-a-d%C3%A9j%C3%A0-vu-for-muslim-women/a-18994746

It's worth reading. There are also some good comments below. Here's one:


It is very telling that in large parts of the Muslim world the men matter and the women simply don't. The author alludes to this when she writes: "His word counts; mine, as a woman, doesn't."

Is it wrong of me to say that I don't want this kind of backwards attitude imported to a free-thinking Europe where, for the most part, men and women are treated as and considered to be equals? Is it wrong of me to enjoy living in a country where mutual respect of the sexes is an unwritten, intrinsic part of the culture? And, is it wrong of me to admit that I have serious fears that certain attitudes and opinions counter to the Western world are a real threat to my own personal safety and security?

I am livid that the value and worth of the women in Germany were apparently never taken into consideration when the gates were opened to at least 700,000 unknown men from a completely different world than ours, who are now having their way with the place.

Long-standing cultural practices and norms, which run counter to and have nothing but anger and contempt for Western values, will not simply be snuffed out by a few integration classes set up by a local Volkshochschule or church.

Angela Merkel has taken a relatively safe Germany and turned it into a place that is now very dangerous, and we will never be able to forgive her for that.



I wish there was a feminist movement standing in solidarity with this woman.

I'm thinking the German politicians are going to get one hell of a wake up call in a couple of months, when there are regional elections in 3 states in Germany. Polls show that AfD, the anti-Euro, anti-immigration party will get about 10% of the vote. I'll go on record here that I think people aren't being honest with pollsters, and it will be much higher. I wouldn't be surprised to see them get 50% of the vote, or even more.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:06 PM

4. I wouldn't be at all surprised if your final paragraph is bang on.


give me a mo... I'll read the article...

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:09 PM

5. Excellent statements in that article.


Exactly what I would have expected to hear, actually, and not before time! Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Do you mind if I post it as an OP?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:16 PM

6. Go for it!

 

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:21 PM

7. +1000

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:23 PM

8. Wow, Ms. Wizorek seemed determined to bury her head as deep in the sand as she can push.

Perhaps she will gain some of Schwarzer's wisdom with age.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 22, 2016, 03:24 PM

18. One would hope so.

Schwarzer is correct that there can be tolerance for limiting the right of German women just to accommodate prevailing norms in the countries of recent arrivals. I haven't always liked her, but she is dead on here. The German government's first responsibility is to protect their own citizens.

By the way, in the article, the slogan in the demonstration "Bleibt uns vom Leib" is translated as "Keep away from our bodies." While this can be taken to mean that literally, it is a common colloquial expression for simply "go away!" or "stay away from us!"

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:53 PM

9. K&R

 

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 11:27 PM

10. Assimilation works. Look, Wizorek has already done it.

 

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 21, 2016, 11:35 PM

11. Yes, absolutely.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Fri Jan 22, 2016, 01:29 AM

12. This is why so many people think feminism is a joke

 

Feminists scream and lecture us non-stop about "rape culture." They get angry when a rocket scientist wears a t-shirt with scantly-clad women. And they get angry when supermodels wear bikinis on Sports Illustrated. We are lectured repeatedly about how unsafe it is for women on college campuses and how the culture of football needs to change.

Yet, 1,000+ Muslim men surround, rob, and sexually assault hundreds of women on New Years Eve in Europe.....and we hear nothing. Actually....you do hear something. You hear the FEMALE mayor of Cologne BLAME women for the attacks and offer advice on what women can do to not provoke the libido of these men.

We get all pissed off when the Christians try to restrict birth control from women or try to prevent gays from getting married. But we remain silent when Sharia Law calls for the execution of homosexuals or the stoning of women who commit adultery.

It seems many progressives are perfectly willing to sacrifice women's rights in the name of multiculturalism and cultural relativism. Liberals have concerned themselves so much about what the right wing feels and says that the left has lost all sense of what's right and wrong.

A free-thinking and liberal Europe is going up in flames.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 22, 2016, 11:15 AM

14. Why wasn't your topic line... this is why so many people think progressives are a joke?

Why feminists? I see feminists as being the ones in the general progressive group saying that what happened in Cologne cannot be swept under the rug.

With the scientist's shirt, feminists were upset that a woman scientist who commented on the shirt received death and rape threats for her comment about women in STEM. That's not OK. Feminists believe he has a right to wear a shirt AND that she has a right to comment without threats of violence. Call us crazy.

The skin mags get commented on to raise awareness of some of the unintended consequences of thought, attitude and behavior that accompany objectification of human beings. Yes, feminists are Debbie Downers in this arena, but I've seen none call for them to be banned or stopped. A simple plea to see the issue holistically.

And the culture of football does need to progress, for the sake of the men and the women, just like the rest of civilization.

I largely agree with the rest of your sentiments.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 22, 2016, 01:09 PM

17. Hence, my confusion in the absence of evidence provided to support your allegations.

It's convenient for half-wits to pretend feminism is a joke and rationalize it as such with unsupported allegations.

Hence, my confusion in the dramatic absence of any evidence supporting your allegations.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Fri Jan 22, 2016, 08:03 AM

13. Good discussion of the balance between helping refugees and protecting women.

Schwarzer: I can't just go up to people standing in the snow at the German-Austrian border and ask them: "Are you an Islamist?" When people flee to us from war zones, we first have to help. But we also have to be quick to look very closely at who it is that is coming.

Wizorek: Patriarchy also exists here in Germany. The right to asylum cannot be restricted just because people come to Germany from countries that represent more sexist attitudes.

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Wizorek: Sexualized violence existed before the refugees -- it has not been imported.

Schwarzer: I know that because I have been fighting against it since 1995, just like all the women SPIEGEL likes to call the "old feminists." For us feminist pioneers, fighting sexual violence, which until then was totally silenced -- be it abuse, rape within marriage or sex killings -- has always been given top priority.

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Response to pampango (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 22, 2016, 11:49 AM

15. Thanks for reading.


I think you and I have been somewhat on opposite sides of this discussion, I just wanted to show that there are other views.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 22, 2016, 12:38 PM

16. It was good to read two German feminists discussing the balance between protecting women and

treating refugees fairly.

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