The Bundy Takeover of the Malheur Refuge.

[Aerows]

Last edited Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)

I am increasingly becoming convinced that somebody higher up in the government is protecting these yokels. During the Cliven situation, they had a sniper pointing a rifle at FBI personnel. They directly threatened their lives. Anybody else would be under the damn jail, and there is direct, identifiable evidence with photos showing who was doing the pointing. I've not heard of an arrest.

In the Malheur Refuge take over, they are allowed to come and go as they please unless one of them commits an obvious felon (Stealing a truck, a murderer carrying a firearm).

Supplies flow in. New militants show up. Using federal bulldozers to create a road right across an archaeological site because it was too inconvenient to get from the bunkhouse to the kitchen.

What the hell? Why has this been allowed to go on like this? All they are doing is inviting another group of lunatics to lay siege to other federal property.

[Rex]

1. I am completely puzzled as to what LEO is trying to accomplish here.

Since when does American law enforcement just ignore activity like illegal (armed) occupancy? Hell they seem experts on removing people from places they don't want them to be!

Dangerous college students about to get violent...any moment now...


Innocent ranchers getting roughed up by LEO...any moment now...

[Aerows]

3. It's mindboggling, Rex

Pepper spray peaceful protesters, protect guys toting enough firepower to level a county.

Our country has become a place where conservative ideas and conservatism are protected like it is a religion. A conservative can do whatever in the hell they want to do, no matter who they harm.

[Rex]

5. A lot of folks get nervous when you bring up how there are a different set of laws

for armed, angry, white GOPers armed to the teeth and batshit crazy. Compared to any other group, that gets roughed up and treated like dirt by cops in riot gear.

[Aerows]

19. There is a major financial motivation here

It's the same thing that precipitated the shut down of Occupy. The Koch brothers want this land that is full of minerals and precious metals, and possibly petroleum.

Occupy wanted rights for the little people - they got shut down. The Bundy Bunch wants more rights for the wealthy, they are aided and abetted.

[daleanime]

26. +1

[mountain grammy]

58. You really have something there.

I agree, they are aided and abetted and only the financial motivation makes any sense.

[Punx]

64. +1

No oil there, it's all basin basalt flows, but possibly gold and certainly graze lands. And fits the narrative of people like the Kochs that want Federal land out west turned over to private interests so that it can be exploited for financial gain for a few wealthy interests.

As an Oregonian this has frustrated me to no end.

[RKP5637]

86. Exactly! The Koch empire and similar would love it privatized, then they can take it all over.

There is clearly an agenda going on here and it's becoming rather uncomfortable.

[Aerows]

106. That appears to be

the end goal to me.

[awoke_in_2003]

129. And the president

is either impotent or complicit

[CanonRay]

31. Frankly, there's no other explanation than

that white guys with guns have their own set of laws. That's why I wrote my Oregon congressman and Senators asking if we are still a nation of laws, or not? This situation is insane.

[Aerows]

48. I'm interested to hear what response

if any, you get from them.

[CanonRay]

117. I plan to post the reponse(s) I get from them. n/t

[charliea]

60. Did that myself.

I also wrote to the governor. My Congressman, Pete Defazio, had a good rant on the House floor.

He's appropriately pissed at the DOJ for not enforcing existing law. I agree.

[Enthusiast]

75. Huge +1!

[CanonRay]

116. Great rant!

Our guy did us proud...thanks for posting.

[nruthie]

65. I did, too. I am beyond furious with this insanity.

[Aerows]

66. You folks are the only ones

standing between the rest of us having this go on in our states. I shudder to think what could happen when the Waffle House brigade (and I'm not anti-Waffle House, I eat there myself) latches on to the idea that taking over federal property and federal buildings is a piece of cake and there is no recourse against the people laying siege.

[RKP5637]

78. They go after the soft targets to exercise authority! Black people, brown people, OWS, LGBT and

others. The message I get is these guys have guns so they back down. I often feel like we are watching the crumbling of the US government and federal authority. Some have said many of TPTB are cut out of the same piece of cloth, more and more, I'm beginning to think this is what is going on as the US marches more and more into a truly Fascist state. And where is Obama in all of this? Also, I think this runs far deeper and far more widespread across the US than the gov. lets on. I do think they are concerned about provoking some type of civil war of sorts.

[Aerows]

80. I was just thankful

that someone in this thread had the guts to call me a conspiracy theorist to my face because this is so ass-backwards you would have to still believe in Santa Clause to think that there aren't other forces involved that include finance and shielding from LEO.

I appreciate it when people are upfront.

[RKP5637]

84. There's something going on, far far more than we are being told. It's weird and concerning. n/t

[Aerows]

85. I don't know about what it is

but it is pretty clear it has financial motivations. People don't do this kind of thing, get away with it and then take over federal land without recourse. Aiming guns at FBI Agents, and don't even get arrested?

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

[RKP5637]

88. What's also strange is how it's ignored by MSM. OWS beatings were non-stop coverage. This, gets

hardly any coverage by MSM. It's not even mentioned on talk shows, etc. There is a massive agenda going on, far more than just preventing shootings.

[world wide wally]

2. So, are they saying that if we want to successfully demonstrate, we can carry guns and we will never

be bothered?
What will this mean for the next anti-war demonstration or civil rights march?

[Aerows]

4. I have no idea what the message is

but it is a damned mixed one.

[BillZBubb]

6. If it happened at an anti-war demonstration or civil rights march,

the cops would use agent provocateurs to initiate a shootout. They'd want a violent outcome.

[Fairgo]

27. This is Oklahoma City...not Waco.

Like an explosion in slow motion. First Bundy ranch...what did not get reported was the galvanising aftermath. Contact between disparate extremist groups, energised cells, transition from static to dynamic groups. Then the mob in the sanctuary. Watch the unifying meme evolve. While we were laughing at them they were catapulting their propaganda to a waiting audience. The audience is tinder, soaked in kerosene. Did you catch Palin literally speaking in tongues? Who do you think she was talking to? Of course the transcript reads like gibberish, but that was not the message. It was the affect, the ritualised iconography, and most importantly, the thrumming sound of the cheering mob echoing in a million empty, hunger heads, "we are legion!". The mob is not engaged in discourse; it is working itself into an altered state. These two comedy shows at polar ends of politics are symptoms of the same syndrome. No need for conspiracy, it is the self organising endgame of uncontrolled capitalism and corporate fascism. After the cowboys comes the brown shirts. After the tea party comes the strong man. The first destroys the artifacts of democracy, the second destroys the idea.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

82. You scared me, man.

[Fairgo]

93. Sorry Elmer

I can be pretty dark before I have my coffee

[flying rabbit]

111. Righteous rant...

...

[2pooped2pop]

7. No it means that there is an effort

To claim mining, logging, and grazing rights by people within these industries that are using and encouraging those of a yeehawd mind to do their bidding. FBI, law enforcement as well as government offices involved and sympathetic to the yeehawdist. (Though not necessarily the ones in that county) If OWS occupiers try this with guns they will die.

[countryjake]

23. Agreed...exactly!

The Ideological Roots of the Oregon Standoff

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/opinion/sunday/the-ideological-roots-of-the-oregon-standoff.html?_r=1

IT is tempting to dismiss the antigovernment gunmen who took control of an animal refuge in Oregon on Jan. 2 as fanatics working at the fringes of American politics. But if the methods used by the rancher Ammon Bundy to seize the federal property were radical, the ideological roots of the operation were somewhat more mainstream.

By storming the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and vowing to return it — by force of arms, if necessary — to the people of Harney County, Mr. Bundy and his men were echoing the teachings, if not the tactics, of the Wise Use movement: a conservative land-use doctrine that has been a part of the national discourse for nearly 30 years.

A successor to the Sagebrush Rebellion of the 1970s (itself a successor to the anti-national parks Boomers project of the early 1900s), Wise Use answers the question of who should own the West by granting moral primacy to natural resource companies and to logging and ranching families like the Bundys, some of which have worked the land since the pioneer expansion.

Though composed of many activists and scores of organizations, Wise Use found its voice in the late 1980s when a timber industry adviser named Ron Arnold published “The Wise Use Agenda.” The manifesto offered an expansive plan to gut environmental regulation, increase private ownership of public land and compel the federal government to open its holdings to mining, oil and logging companies and to the unrestricted use of off-road vehicles...

(bolding within the article is mine)

[Aerows]

47. That is the only conclusion

I could possibly come to with regard to how this situation has been not only handled, but coddled.

[enough]

8. This is a very interesting question. It seems they have essentially taken themselves hostage,

which seems to give them some kind of power above the law.

[cheapdate]

9. Every day I scan Latest Threads hoping for good news about this situation.

Every day brings new disappointment.

[Aerows]

17. There has to be something more to this

They are flagrantly defying the government, and are being expressly allowed to do so. There is some money involved here, and the source of it needs to be cut off and the violators ushered to the Iron Bar Hotel.

[cheapdate]

24. I feel the same way. Very angry.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

62. We call it the Manybar Hotel.

Excuse me, very old joke. One that only gets smellier and riper as the years go on. Age doth not improve these.

[Aerows]

68. I grew up in Jefferson Parish

and we used to call it the Harry Lee Hilton.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

72. ???

Only one I can think of is Light-Horse Harry Lee of Virginia. What's the connection?

[Aerows]

74. Jefferson Parish in Louisiana

Suburb of New Orleans. Obscure reference, you'd have to be from there to get it. Sheriff Harry Lee was practically an institution as Sheriff.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

81. Oh okay.

Local politician. Here in South Texas, my dad referred to the Texas Department of Corrections as "Uncle Bud's place".

Don't know if that came from a famous warden or not.

I should tell you one of my Louisiana jokes. Gives we Texans somebody to laugh at besides our own idiot politicians.

1) Why did God invent Louisiana? To make Texas politics look clean.

2)What is the definition of Louisiana? Half of it is under water and half of it is under indictment.

WARNING: NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT: 3) What is the difference between a c%%n-ass and a dumb-ass? The Sabine River.

Thank you, I'll be here all week.

[Aerows]

83. OMG

the difference between ...

Oh my, that made me burst out laughing so loud I scared the cat!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

87. Glad I made you laugh!!! We all need to laugh at least once a day.

[Fairgo]

112. Used to get Harry Lee dolls as Mardi Gras throws

Never forget the time Harry Lee waddled up to the stage with that asshole Steven Seagal during a Gatemouth Brown set at the Maple Leaf. He looked like a helium filled toad with a cowboy hat. Absolutely surreal. Rather off topic, sorry.

[Lordquinton]

96. Next stop there hots and a cot.

My bus ride used to stop by he county jail, one of the drivers had a sense of humor, or so he claimed.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

114. Yep, three hots and a cot.

Three hot meals a day and a cot.

The cooler, the slammer, the joint, the can, the pokey, the calaboose (from calabasa, squash or pumpkin), the hoosegow.

[old guy]

30. I do the same thing.

I'm almost at the point, however, where I don't care anymore. This has gone way past making any sense.

[Aerows]

38. It makes sense in the context

that someone is pulling the strings and covets these lands for their resources. That is the only conclusion I can come to.

[old guy]

39. You could very well be right.

Way beyond me.

[Aerows]

53. What else are normal human beings

that aren't stark raving mad lunatics supposed to conclude?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

50. same here - but...

i scratch my head and wonder why the hell they come and go at will

[Aerows]

73. And get supplies.

And other militia nuts are allowed in, too.

If that isn't suspicious, then the moon is made of cheese.

[RKP5637]

92. There is something going on and the citizens are not being told. They may have and I missed

it, but I've heard really none of federal authority talking about it. And where is Obama in all of this. All I hear is silence except for the Oregon newspaper covering some of it.

[Ford_Prefect]

10. I get the same impression that there is more connection and protection going on behind the scenes.

The real questions are who is pulling the strings on this, what is their real agenda and which dark money source is paying to support it (someone definitely is)?

[Aerows]

15. Has to be.

Nobody else could get away with this.

[atreides1]

67. If I were a gambling man

I'd say that FBI Director Comey is giving these clowns cover!


http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/the-fbi-directors-troubling-comments-on-the-ferguson-effect/412351/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3133472/FBI-director-criticized-saying-Charleston-church-shooting-NOT-act-terrorism.html

[Aerows]

98. Quite likely!

Interesting articles, atreides1.

[Marty McGraw]

71. unfortunately

A good Chunk of the BLM has suffered from corporate capture already the past decades and a lot of areas are used as developer & industrial toxic run-off areas if not these absolute ludicrous cheap grazing lease land. Wyoming's fracking industry just Loves BLM Land.

I hope when Bernie gets in office and he has the people's push we can reclaim these agencies get the right management for them through congress as well as staff them the way they were supposed to be to get it back to the way it was meant for.

[msongs]

11. there is no standoff. they come and go as they please do what they want with the blessing of

the federal government at his highest level.

[Aerows]

13. You are right.

It isn't a standoff. They have their teacher's pass from somebody to wander without worry.

[Protalker]

12. Be generous

Truck in water from Flint.

[Aerows]

14. I'm pretty sure

that at this point, lead poisoning might make them smarter.

[Mendocino]

20. Regular or unleaded?

[Gregorian]

16. Could it be they want to avoid a militant synnergy?

I hate using term martyr, but that has been in the back of my mind.

Right behind why the fuck were they not in handcuffs in the first hour?

[Aerows]

18. If they want to avoid a militant surge

then the last thing they need to do is illustrate that it's okay to act with impunity on federal land, and do the things these idiots are doing.

People spend serious time in the federal pen for doing things like disturbing archaeological sites. These guys are allowed to come and go as they please, get supplies and new people come in, too.

Somebody and some serious money has got to be covering for them as their useful idiots. There is no other explanation.

[elias49]

42. The Koch brothers? nt

[Aerows]

45. Usual suspects. n/t

[passiveporcupine]

37. Yes

Among them is Scott Woods, a militia leader from West Virginia who said Payne's behavior as the militia coordinator at the Bundy ranch gave him pause when he heard Bundy and Payne's call to action in Oregon.

"He absolutely did not want the situation up there at the Bundy ranch to end," Woods said. "He was doing everything he could to stir things up when they were de-escalating."

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_occupation_leader_ryan.html#incart_big-photo

I think the FEDS know these guys want this to blow up and bring more militants out of the woodwork. Many militants have already refused to side with this armed occupation because they think it goes too far. The kinds of zealots who are leading this (Ryan and Bundy) are really willing to die to win. They won't negotiate. They won't even honor their word. Winning is what it's all about. And how many people need to die for the cause of a few zealots?

I am as upset as anyone that this is stretching out so long, but I don't want to see bloodshed.

I think the FEDs know what they are doing, and they are trying to prevent more militants from joining the group because "martyrs".

[Aerows]

40. But pp, they aren't

They can come and go as they please get supplies and more whackos join them every day. That is not prevention, that is allowing the situation to fester. When it festers enough that it becomes necessary to lance the infection, the destruction will be ten times worse that stopping it in its tracks would have accomplished.

They absolutely have to have someone bankrolling them, and someone shielding them. You can't tell me that just anybody can run around pointing sniper rifles at FBI personnel and not go to jail for it. Something else is going on here.

[passiveporcupine]

46. A few wackos have joined them,

but most of the organized militant groups won't have anything to do with them. And allowing them to come and go is part of the deescalation that is preventing them from blowing this up into a huge media storm, which is really what the Bundys want.

They really are not getting anywhere fast and they will keep trying to blow it up, and eventually they will get caught with their pants down and be arrested...like the guys who were bold enough to use refuge trucks to drive to the store for more snacks.

The FEDs are far smarter than this group. I'm not worried about this, I just feel badly for the town of Burns because of all the divisiveness that is causing so much anger and frustration and fear in town.

They really don't need any bankrolling. Bundy had a solid business and he's not broke. Many of them may be poor, but not all of them, and it doesn't cost them a penny to stay there, other than food. And they are getting help from supporters in the way of money and snacks sent through the mail.

I really don't think they have any big bank rollers behind them.

You know, I'm human and they are too close to my heart here in Oregon, so this whole thing bothers the hell out of me. It would be cathartic to see the FEDs roll in and blast them to hell, but we don't need any more martyrs to the cause and we don't need any innocent lives lost, nor damage to the refuge buildings. l think wisdom must prevail and we need to let the FEDs do what they know how to do better than we do. And of course the Governor is frustrated...she's getting all kinds of hell from Oregonians about this. But that's her job, so let her deal with it. Let the FEDs do their job and have some patience. This will end, and I can only hope (being human) that some of the wack jobs end up in jail over this.

[Aerows]

51. No one would be allowed to act with impunity

pointing rifles at FBI personnel, and later take over a federal building without recourse unless they had protection from above.

That exceeds my suspension of disbelief.

When things like this happen, you have to ask Cui Bono? The answer is anyone that wants the resources on that land and is willing to push their useful idiots to take it in an act of blundering patriotism, while being protected.

The only people that have been arrested were arrested by the county sherriff's department because they were engaged in overt felonies.

The rest are allowed to come and go as they please, pretending that they are at a church retreat and destroying the area without care.

[passiveporcupine]

55. I just updated my post, in case you'd like to see what I added

A agree that not taking any action after the Bundy thing has built up their courage, and encouraged them to pursue their zealotry and agenda. But in the long run, it's allowing them to paint themselves into a corner where eventually they will take it so far that something has to be done and they will end up in jail.

I do believe this.

Also I don't believe they've done a lot of destruction. I don't think the short "road" they dozed is in a sensitive area. I've not seen that on Oregon Live and I think it would be if true.

So, no...I don't see the money behind this. I don't usually get into conspiracy theories, and this is kinda heading that way.

[Aerows]

77. Misread pp's post.

Last edited Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Sorry, pp

[passiveporcupine]

100. Please don't go there

[Aerows]

102. Sorry pp n/t

[passiveporcupine]

104. Hey, if you are looking for a fight, I'm outta here

[passiveporcupine]

113. I did not call you a conspiracy theorist.

I said it was kinda heading that way, not that it was there. I asked for evidence to back the idea that big money was behind them, which I've never seen in any of these discussion here on DU, or elsewhere, where this has been brought up...

I'm sorry if I offended you. I see a lot of alarmist reactions on these threads about the Oregon situation and I'd like to try to deescalate some of it, because it leads to people becoming angry and fearful and a crowd mentality starts to take over. And, that is really never helpful in situations like this.

So, please, if you have some kind of evidence to back up your observations about Koch's or anybody like them, funding the militia group, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I usually don't believe a lot of what I see and hear on the internet until I see evidence to back it up. It's not personal. I've said this before, I'm a pretty cynical person. I like to see proof before I make up my mind about things.

[Aerows]

123. Apologies

I misread your post .

[passiveporcupine]

130. It's OK, thanks for the PM and apology

My words are not always as thoughtful as they should be. I am sorry for the confusion and glad that you understand that I was not trying to attack you.

[passiveporcupine]

61. Here is something else from Ryan

that shows the militant and sovereign groups are not "part of, or funded by the monied establishment"

His (Ryan's) conclusion: A small group of political and business elites was intentionally making it impossible to make a living in rural America because they wanted to secure the land and mineral resources underneath to consolidate their own power and wealth. Through "social and economic warfare" techniques that include regulations, especially environmental regulations, this group was forcing Americans into cities where they were easier to control.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_occupation_leader_ryan.html#incart_big-photo

a patriot-affiliated group in Southern Arizona that works to bring attention to the high rate of veteran suicide, said he left the Nevada standoff "100 percent certain" that Payne intended to "commit suicide by government."

Unfortunately, guys like this who want suicide by cop, often want to take others out with them.

[Aerows]

90. Wait a second

You are quoting a person involved in this lawless siege of federal land, and expect everybody to believe he is unbiased?

Then you conclude he wants to go by the way of suicide by cop.

I have no idea why you would think anyone would view this individual as mentally stable or capable of speaking wisely about ... well, anything.

This just gives credence to my thoughts that these are useful idiots being played by a wealthy backer and have protection from a federal source.

[passiveporcupine]

95. Perhaps I didn't include enough here

Michael Lewis Arthur Meyer, the leader of Veterans on Patrol, a patriot-affiliated group in Southern Arizona that works to bring attention to the high rate of veteran suicide, said he left the Nevada standoff "100 percent certain" that Payne intended to "commit suicide by government."

this guy was part of the Bundy group who determined Ryan was cuckoo and you say he can't be believed because he participated in the Bundy standoff in Nevada?

I'm sorry,but I don't think there is any pleasing you. He did not agree with the way the Bundy standoff in Nevada went because of the way Ryan was handling it and yet that's not good enough? He must be biased. If he was biased, why then is he against Ryan here instead of the FEDs?

He is not participating in the Oregon standoff.

[passiveporcupine]

99. I did not call you a conspiracy theorist...but this whole concept of big money

backing these guys is trending toward conspiracy theory. Where is the evidence?

I was certainly not intending to offend you. We all toy with conspiracy theory off and on. Some of us just don't think about it for very long because we don't see evidence to support it.

[passiveporcupine]

101. I stand corrected on this

When asked about the construction, the militant claimed that the road was already there, and that militants had only removed snow from the path.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service says these fence posts were newly removed since the occupation. The road now cuts through the previously fenced area.

That fence was in place “as a deterrent to keep fire crews from driving across the archaeological site,” said Holm.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service says these fence posts were newly removed since the occupation. The road now cuts through the previously fenced area.

Amanda Peacher/OPB
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service confirmed Thursday that not only is the road built last week by the occupiers new, but it is also within an archaeological site important to the Burns Paiute Tribe.

Apparently they have now moved part of a fence and dozed a new road that is running through a sensitive archaeological site.

Bastards! They just did this on Wed 20th. What a bunch of lazy fuckers. They need to have little private roads from point a to point b so they don't have to walk a few extra feet? And they claim to care about the land and ecology? Bullshit. They only care about profit and greed.

[Aerows]

124. And all of the artifacts stored at the refuge.

There is a lot of concern that they will end up on the black market. It's not as though half of the loons there aren't criminals.

p.s. I sent you a PM apologizing - I badly misinterpreted your post. It was my own dang fault for reading about this on Yahoo and then reading the comments. Every third post had somebody screaming "you are conspiracy theorist" for questioning the response.

I was a tad wound up. That is no excuse for jumping all over you, and I sincerely apologize, passiveporcupine.

[lastlib]

57. They'tr poor, but they can sure as hell afford their gunz!

.

[Bettie]

89. So, when their allies

take over another place and then another, still, nothing to be done, just let them have whatever they want?

How much do we let them take before we can say enough?

Or is it that white men with guns get whatever they want without any sort of repercussions because they are white men with guns?

[passiveporcupine]

91. While it is not fair that POC with guns and liberal activists without guns are treated differently

That doesn't make it right to escalate a situation where right now, no one is in danger. Especially when this is exactly what they want.

[Bettie]

108. No action

and then, when they take their next target...no action...then the next...no action.

Finally, they control large areas and, well, by that time, no action has turned into: they own whatever they hold.

[passiveporcupine]

115. I don't believe that can or will happen

Bundy's don't own the BLM land they are grazing their cattle on right now. I know it might take a long time, but the government will take action in the courts at some point.

[Bettie]

119. These people don't accept that the courts have

any right to tell them what to do, so then, we'll still have, well, them not paying their fines.

So, we fine them, they won't leave, they won't pay and everyone just sits and wrings their hands because they will threaten violence if anyone approaches them or tries to enforce laws.

At some point, someone will have to either

A. just pull up their pants and deal with these assholes or
B. Acknowledge that these guys have special privileges and are allowed to make terrorist threats because...Waco and Ruby Ridge.

Fear of annoying armed white male (mostly) whackjobs is a thing, it would seem and, so far, has allowed them to do whatever they please.

[Johonny]

21. I enjoy that even the govenor of the state has said WTF to the feds inaction

Oregon Governor Kate Brown defied a request by federal authorities to remain mum on the occupation of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to blast the feds for letting the Bundy-led militants hole up there for 19 days and counting, the Oregonian reports.

[Aerows]

28. Unfortunately, this is federal land

and Kate Brown can't call in the National Guard.

So this is a situation where Federal LEO sits by twiddling their thumbs and allowing it all to happen. Hell, the two arrests were by local authorities because they were committing obvious felonies outside of the federal properties.

[Aerows]

25. So they are okay with people pointing guns at them

... because is white male conservatives doing the pointing.

[Aerows]

36. It's rather disheartening, isn't it?

I guess you would consider everyone that isn't an authoritarian, gun-toting "man's man" the enemy.

[MiniMe]

29. But most of them don't own land in Washington State

[stevenleser]

32. They are trying to prevent another Waco, which has been a rallying cry for the nutball set ever

since.

I have no idea why survivalist 2nd amendment types identify with the branch davidians but if they identified with them, they will definitely identify with the bundy whackjobs.

[Aerows]

34. By attempting to prevent another Waco in this way

by letting it continue, they are facilitating yet another heist of Federal lands due to inaction.

No, somebody is covering for these idiots - they have to be.

[stevenleser]

49. I agree, but there is no easy answer. nt

[Aerows]

63. Sure there is.

Arrest anyone from outside providing material assistance, block their cell phone and internet access (and do not believe anyone that tells you that they cannot do that without affecting locals in the area - give me 20 minutes and I could re-route their specific traffic into a black hole), limit the power to just enough to keep the pipes warm enough not to freeze but highly uncomfortable for 24/7 living for human beings (40F sounds about right).

Now you have them living in a refrigerator, isolated from outside contact, and getting no supplies or reinforcements. Treat it like what it is - a siege.

They will have to hole up until winter is over if they don't give up, and by then, they will be praying for a hot meal and blankets even if their destination (which it should be) is the penitentiary.

[Major Nikon]

118. The opposite is also true

Multiple federal and state investigations all showed the government was not at fault for the deaths at Wacko, yet the nutbags are still motivated by it today. If I were in charge of the FBI, I'd put a blockade around the whole area, make daily shipments of cheap beer and rot gut liquor into the compound and wait for the nutbags to have a complete meltdown.

[elias49]

41. Maybe let them come in dribs and drabs,

and when all the fools are together, round them up.

[Aerows]

44. Here is my problem with that

The more people that gather around these idiots, the more it will embolden others to emulate them. I do not doubt for a second that due to the success that the Bundy Bunch has had, there are others already setting their eye on other federal property.

The more people that join up with their "cause" the greater the damage in human life and damage to the refuge will be when it is over - not to mention the more feet trampling the site, the greater the damage they are doing on a daily basis.

In my opinion, this has been handled exactly the wrong way - if what you wanted to accomplish was securing the Federal land and refuge. It has been handled exactly the right way if you want to oversee the land being exposed for exploitation.

[HassleCat]

52. Middle of March is the deadline

Beware the ides of March. That's when the birders start to show up. The Bundy Bunch will probably try to turn them away, and they will raise hell with their representatives in Congress, and that will spark a crisis.

[Aerows]

56. And by then

they will be fully entrenched with more idiots than they have now.

This should have been nipped in the bud way before it got to this point. That's why I have to think someone is protecting them and financing this escapade.

[MH1]

110. I'm sure hoping it doesn't go that long. But if it does -

those birders are generally (in my experience) middle to upper-middle class (those optics ain't cheap), a good proportion are retired with time on their hands, and they are intelligent and WILL contact their congress critters.

And I'm thinking a decent percentage are quite capable of getting hopping, spitting, pissed. Not sure what will happen then.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

128. First, it was supposed to be winter. Now it's going to be spring? By then, they will have...

...captured Malheur.

[SoapBox]

54. I agree...something is drastically wrong.

[Omaha Steve]

59. Thanks for posting

K&R

OS

[Aerows]

70. I just thought this was worth discussing.

There is no way they could get away with this if they didn't have powerful backers and financiers. No way.

[blackspade]

69. Not only that but now they are bulldozing Native American sites and looting.

As I posted yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027552372

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/21/1472882/-Militants-bulldoze-through-Native-American-archeological-site-share-video-rifling-through-artifacts

The response has been infuriating considering how swiftly the Feds and local police respond to BLM and other protest groups who are peaceful and actually have something legit to protest about.

[glinda]

76. I agree whole heartedly. Wish we had names.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

79. Agree with everything, ESPECIALLY the last sentence!

Just a matter of time. And it seems like there's all the time in the world.

[Odin2005]

94. I've been saying this for a while.

It boggles my mind.

[livingonearth]

103. I sure makes you wonder.

These Yeehawdists are indeed being allowed to encourage another grab on government land.
I don't want to see them martyred with a show of force just yet, but I can't understand why their supply lines haven't at least been cut off.

[passiveporcupine]

105. More from Oregon Live

So how can the people that make up the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, a newly-formed group of about 20 self-styled militia that have occupied the federal headquarters at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, afford to do it?

"These guys are broke," said Mark Pitcavage, who has been researching far-right movements for 22 years and has studied the Harney County occupiers. "Right-wing extremists, generally speaking, have very little money."

Operating costs at the refuge are small. Utilities are paid for courtesy of the federal government.

Citizens for Constitutional Freedom appear to have little more than themselves and donations to rely on for an occupation they say could last years. Pleas from occupiers and allies for donations have been slow to take off.

"It's quite possible that a lot of them will get tired and feel the pressure to go back and care for their families," Pitcavage said.

One circumstance on the occupiers' side is their relative freedom of movement. Law enforcement is not preventing anybody from coming and going from the refuge, and some appear to have taken advantage of that to maintain their civilian lives.

Although it's impossible to know for certain whether major financial sources are funneling cash to the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, Pitcavage said it is very unlikely.

"There's no large organization to give them money," Pitcavage said. "The right-wing extremist movement is broke."

Just some bits and pieces pulled out of this article on Oregon Live, but there is a lot more in the article.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/with_little_outside_support_mi.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. I do not think they have help

but the feds are scared shitless over a second WACO or Ruby Ridge

That said, this looks like well white supremacy

http://reportingsandiego.com/2016/01/21/ammon-bundy-and-harney-county-and-white-supremacy/

[underahedgerow]

120. If you were a law enforcement official, bona fide, the real deal, what would you propose?

Be logical, logistal, practical and realistic. What steps would you take, considering - and outlining -- all the potential outcomes?

[Rex]

122. Cut off their water supply, food and electricity. Road blocks so nobody can go in or out.

You know, standard stuff cops do every single day. The potential for copycats imo is a larger danger than taking these RWing idiots on.

[Aerows]

125. I'll take a stab at it.

The first thing I would do is jam their communications. There are ways to do this without affecting the rest of the populous in Harney County. They crave attention, so don't give it to them. Stop letting the media interview them.

The second thing I would do is prevent anyone from coming in, and stop the flow of supplies. Now I realize there are very few officers in Harney County because it is a large area that is sparsely populated, but at least an effort to block some supplies might make a difference.

Okay, now here is where I don't know, because I live in the South and have no idea about pipes bursting, etc., so I don't know if it is feasible to shut off the electricity and the water. I'll have to leave that part up to people with experience with that.

Last thing I would do is nobody goes in brazenly on the roads, and nobody goes out unless they are going to surrender. I know that is a challenging order, though. There are lots of FBI personnel though, and I would think they could at least tighten things up a little bit.

[underahedgerow]

133. At what risk though? Do you want good, decent law enforcement people to be put at genuine

physical risk of death at the hands of these nutters, if their 'rights' to traverse a public road are impeded? These guys would LOVE to start a shoot-out. Since they have absolutely nothing to gain in this ridiculous farce of theirs, all that's now left is a good, old fashioned, wild west shoot out.

From the beginning I have supported cutting off their utilities and communications, but the Feds see things differently;

Clint Van Zandt, a former FBI chief hostage negotiator, likened Ammon Bundy and his occupiers to one of the Republican presidential candidates. They have said they're camped out until the federal government releases two Harney County ranchers imprisoned for setting fires that damaged federal land and until the refuge land gets into local hands.

"The group out there is a little bit like Donald Trump," said Van Zandt, a former negotiator and supervisor in the bureau's Behavioral Science Unit during his 25-year career with the agency. "They do things for attention. They do things so the media pays attention."

At this time, according to this article http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/why_dont_feds_try_to_oust_oreg.html

these nutters are considered simply to be protesters and trespassers and so far as protesters they have the right to express themselves and air their grievances.

"They're exercising their First Amendment rights,'' Coulson said. "If they want to make a statement, let them. Let them have a forum.''

"There's no doubt in my mind that they're fully prepared to go in tactically and resolve this situation if they need to," Van Zandt said. "But the federal government has nothing to gain by taking some kind of precipitous action that would give the group more attention or reason to have an armed confrontation."

So for now, patience is the key. I'm ok with that.

[Aerows]

135. I am concerned that

as more and more kooks join their group and others realize they can get away with it, the problem will bloom into something a lot worse.

That is the issue I see with it. Of course no one wants to see LEO's put in harms way, but if several other groups of this ilk copy their actions, then there is the possibility for a lot worse to happen.

We'll see. I know some of these nutters are chomping at the bit to start a race war. My only hope is that we don't see this mushroom into other federal property being taken over.

You are right that it is a tricky situation. I just offered some options for how to wear them out so that they decide to leave on their own.

[Rex]

137. You are spot on, letting them build into an army puts LEO at MORE risk no less.

I don't really care why it is that hard to understand. Then again critical thinking is required here and that is something LEO if far lacking of imo.

[Rex]

136. So the risk of letting them do what they want is less a risk than them building up into an army?

Your logic goes against everything law enforcement stands for. Do I want them at risk? Do I want MORE of them at risk when there are MORE domestic terrorists with more guns as time passes on?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

127. Certainly wouldn't be capitulation. nt

[Buns_of_Fire]

134. The one thing I DON'T think I'd do is turn off the electricity.

If the rough tough manly-men can't keep warm because none of the heaters work, I'm sure things would start burning -- anything that would burn, including records, documents, artifacts, and parts of the buildings themselves. So far, I think the FBI is probably trying to avoid any further damage to the reserve's infrastructure than has probably already been done, since it doesn't seem that there are any innocent bystanders or hostages to worry about.

Same with blocking gas, water, Cheesy Poof shipments, propane, and members of the Nutbag Reserve. Any slight (real or imagined) could set them off to go out in a final blaze of glory, martyrs to their Glorious Cause.

Of course, these fools may well just torch it all as they eventually leave, anyway, just as a final FU.

Right now, just waiting them out might be the best move, realizing that there will come a point where someone on one side or the other is going to say, "this ends now."

[L. Coyote]

121. Please edit out the word Oregon from the OP. Thanks from everyone in Oregon. #BundyTeaParty

A #BundyTeaParty is a #BundyTeaParty.

Why they picked Oregon is an interesting question, but this wacko political stunt on the frontier of Deseret, the Mormon State before the USA kicked their butts and occupied them, is so opposite of what Oregon is, perhaps it answers the question of why Oregon. Maybe the goal is the Oregon governor's race? Maybe the goal is to hold out until the election to make the Democrats look ineffectual. Only Montana and Washington also have Dem governors and elect the governor this Fall, but those two states do not have Harney County and the Hammonds.

Given Tim White, the Oregon Republican Party Chair in Harney County, IS the leader of the Committee for Safety, and given which politicians are visiting the #BundyMilitia occupation, the term I like most and which best describes the event, an attempt to replace the existing government, the Tea Party theme was just too apropo to not deploy.

So far, it hasn't caught on beyond my posts, thus #BundyTeaParty makes a great Google Images search term, producing the many images i have associated with it.

Anyway, they picked on Oregon and we are groused at this swift change of reputation due to invasive crowing loons whose cardinal objective is our overthrow. Did you call the Poles Nazis because Hitler invaded them? Don't allow them to occupy our name too! And, ...
[center]
Don't get me started .... please don't label these #FreeRangeNuts with the term Oregon.

Thanks

[Aerows]

126. Done

I am sorry your entire state is enduring this. If it makes you feel any better, I live in MS, and we have plenty of nut jobs to spare, and plenty of stupid things that come up in legislation.

[L. Coyote]

131. Thanks.

#BundyTeaParty image search
https://www.google.com/search?q=%23BundyTeaParty&tbm=isch

[libodem]

132. TeaParty drinks Kool-aid

The rich and powerful Oz KKKOCH Brothers want to log public land to make Brawny Paper towels for free. Then they can frack the naked forest. That's my conspiracy theory.

Pardon me while I wrap my tin foil a bit tighter and look for a colander. I may want to worship while I channel theories.

Something protecting these Reactionary Insurrectionists. I'm sick of it. Thorzine the water supply. Tear gas them out. Do do something. And then punish them to the full extent of the law for setting a terrible example.