In your opinion, are DraftKings and FanDuel gambling?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

ALBANY - The two giants of the daily fantasy sports industry will be able to remain open in New York as their appeal is heard in court.

The state Appellate Division in Manhattan granted a stay Monday for DraftKings and FanDuel, which will allow the two companies to keep taking entries from New York users as their appeal moves forward. The four-judge panel did not offer an explanation for its decision.

The stay gives the companies a temporary win in their ongoing court battle with state Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, who claims the fantasy games offered by the two companies amount to illegal gambling. FanDuel and DraftKings' appeal is expected to be heard in May.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/story/news/local/new-york/2016/01/11/draftkings-fanduel-get-new-reprieve-ny/78642884/

40 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	36 (90%)
	No
	4 (10%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[itsrobert]

1. So is the Stock Market

n/t

[Algernon Moncrieff]

13. Ideally, no -- but that's what it's turned into

Especially penny stocks and options trading.

I like Warren Buffet's notion that, ideally, the stock market would be open one day every year for people to buy and sell pieces of businesses -- which is really what the market is supposed to be.

[rjsquirrel]

55. Penny stocks?

A marginal game for chumps.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

56. Yet inevitably every one of those investment contests is won by a 16 yo

...who put the imaginary 10 grand on some stock trading for $.08 per share.

[rjsquirrel]

30. Nonsense

The stock market has returned a steady rate of growth over decades. It is the single most reliable long term investment vehicle for millions. If you invest regularly and have a long term horizon it is nearly impossible to lose money.

So put your ideology down. There is zero reason to equate the stock market with gambling. That's historically untrue. Over the last 25 years the average annual return on DJIA has been over 10%.

[Xolodno]

44. That's half true.

If you invest into blue chip stocks your statement is correct. But if you invest into high risk stocks/borderline or on pink sheets....you can lose your ass. Just ask investors into Six Flags (prior to bankruptcy) and Playboy before it was bought out.

...and yes, I was an "investor" in both, albeit, I did so on the notion I was going to lose the money and was gambling on a possible recovery.

[jmowreader]

46. It depends on the Pink Sheets stock you buy

A lot of European blue chips trade OTC.

[rjsquirrel]

48. No it's all true

I specifically said the DJIA. As in an index, which you can buy as an index fund. Or you can own its component stocks.

If so you've made over a 10% average annual return over 25 years and something between 5 and 10 percent depending on inflation and a few complexities over a century, including the depression and two world wars.

Rock solid. I didn't say a thing about non-DJIA (blue chip) stocks, did I?

So all true, by the numbers and go check the math.

If you choose to ignore standard principles of leverage, asset allocation, diversification, and risk management you can gamble on stocks, sure. But you don't have to. And it's as dumb as any form of gambling to try to score big and fast in stocks. Dollar cost average 10% of your pay every year into a blue chip index fund, be disciplined , and a middle class person can retire a millionaire.

Ask me how I know. Still working, don't have to.

[Xolodno]

49. Sorry, was tired and part of your post didn't sink in....

...but correct. DJIA is the way to go. And that needs to be hammered to potential investors. All to often you hear "I'm going to invest into the next Apple, IBM, Disney, etc." and they get burned.

The next "big thing" is always a gamble, but solid companies, not so much...in most cases (looking at Enron, Bear Stearns, etc.)

But if you diversify, that shouldn't be a problem, if it is....we all have a lot more to worry about.

[rjsquirrel]

54. No prob thanks!

When you're young or if you've covered the basics there's no shame in taking bigger risks with your allocation of course. But that still doesn't need to be gambling. It can be research based and rational.



One reason I'm not completely anti-Wall St. is that we absolutely need capitalism to work for the waged middle class to create growth. Broad investment through retirement plans gives workers a voice -- or it should -- in the boardroom.

Eliz Warren understands this better than Bernie or Hillary, sigh.

[kelly1mm]

2. I do think they are gambling AND think they should be legal for adults. nt

[Algernon Moncrieff]

14. How should it be taxed and by whom?

[kelly1mm]

17. Taxed in the same way/Jurisdiction any other ecommerce activity would be. If I

choose to play Farmville sitting in my house in Maryland and I but some credits from X company. they will report that income in their home jurisdiction.

In this case the player will report any gambling winnings like they do now on their state and federal income tax returns (offset up to the amount of gambling losses)

Perhaps I am not understanding the question though ....

I will note however that I am opposed in general to 'sin taxes' as they are extremely regressive. Further I am specifically opposed to gambling 'sin taxes' as what the .gov REALLY wants is to exclude competition. Basically they are OK with gambling as long as they get their cut.

[Ed Suspicious]

35. See 1.5 billion dollar powerball hysteria.

[Iggo]

3. Ayup.

[Travis_0004]

4. Gambling, yes.

Should it be legal, yes.

[Odin2005]

5. It is gambling and it should be banned.

Those sites are a one-way ticket to gambling addiction.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. Not that I am for either of the two sites, never played then or any online gambling...

but the states have legalized gambling: which can cause the same issues of addiction.

What is your view on all the games, lottery, scratch, Keno, and do you approve/disapprove of them?

[Odin2005]

7. I hate all gambling.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. Fair enough answer.

[brooklynite]

10. If you hated alcohol, should that be banned as well?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

16. There is always a paternalistic element to the "it preys on the poor" argument

Grownups should be able to make their own decisions. After all, tomorrow morning I can go to Schwab and throw my entire 401K into penny stocks, soybean futures -- all kinds of crazy "investments" that are all legal.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. Cannabis is banned in your State because some hated it and hated the cultures who used it.

NY State jails people for it even as they guzzle vast amounts of liquor and that is done for no logical reason at all.

[snooper2]

39. So I guess you don't want to make a bet?

LOL

[kelly1mm]

42. So since you hate all of some activity it should be banned? How .... 'fundy' of you ....n/t

[Ex Lurker]

28. Liquor stores are a one-way ticket to alcoholism

we tried banning them, and it didn't work so well.

[kelly1mm]

43. The State of New York is not against gambling per se, just gambling it does not get a cut of. nt

[Codeine]

9. I don't gamble but I fail to see the problem

with legalized gambling. We have legal alcohol. Many of us support decriminalization of most drugs. Cigarettes are legal.

Why are all of those things acceptable but gambling is some big bugaboo? I think it's a dumb waste of time, but I also feel that way about all the other things I mentioned. I don't want THOSE items made illegal.

[hifiguy]

11. Sure, but I give no hoots.

You can spend a buck or ten thousand, and I see no guns being held to anyone's bead to participate.

Harmless.

[oberliner]

20. It's pretty dangerous for recovering compulsive gamblers

The easier it is to gamble, the harder it is for a compulsive gambler to avoid gambling.

[CBGLuthier]

26. If we control everything in our society from the point of those with "problems" we will have nothing

No alcohol, no fatty foods, no sex because some people even have trouble with that.

No thanks.

[oberliner]

29. The government is already taking steps to ban such foods.

FDA orders food manufacturers to stop using trans fat within three years

Artificial trans fat will have to disappear from the American diet, according to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

The FDA on Tuesday ruled that trans fat is not "generally recognized as safe" for use in human food.

The department gave food manufacturers three years to remove the partially hydrogenated oils, or PHOs, from their products. The companies can petition the FDA for a special permit to use it, but no PHOs can be added to human food unless otherwise approved by the FDA.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/health/fda-trans-fat/

Also, alcohol is very strictly regulated and can only be bought and sold at certain locations that are licensed to do so.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. Some days I want to slap you all. It was illegal to have gay sex in many States until 2003. Illegal.

Cannabis is illegal under Federal law and most States will lock you up for it while having a holiday to celebrate their love of alcohol.

So affecting that you oppose control over such things is bullshit. You just want no controls over stuff YOU like. If I like it you will sit and let millions go to jail for it while you 'catch a light buzz' and giggle.

[AngryAmish]

12. Gambling means I have a chance to win.

I have no chance to win with those games.

The only sport I ever made money on (80% ) was boxing. Sooo much domb money in boxing.

[Go Vols]

50. Wish I was 80% on football

At 57% this year,best year was 66%.
Enough for a couple of vacations this year tho.

[AngryAmish]

52. Good for you.

The only consistent winning football bet in Chicago is against Notre Dame. There is so much dumb ND money you get a consistent 1.5 to 2 points of value, more when they are good. Short Illini basketball too.

I don't bet because one really needs a good body of knowledge and I lack that time.

[Go Vols]

53. lol

It does get time consuming and it doesn't stop when the season is over,just slows down.

[Yupster]

15. Yes but I still think it should be legal

To me it's most similar to poker.

[edhopper]

18. It's gambling

I don't care if they make it legal, though under current laws it should not be allowed.

But I fucking hate Fantasy Football. It goes against everything Football is about. Team over individuals, winning is the goal, etc...

[oberliner]

19. No question about it

It is definitely gambling.

[bigwillq]

21. Yes. But I support a person's decision to gamble or not.

All forms of Gambling should be legal.

[dembotoz]

22. gambling with poor odds against the house

since the ability to win is determined by knowledge as much as skill

since i would be not a devoted student of sports i would be definition be a poor better

[OrwellwasRight]

23. I think gambling, like many other activities,

preys on humanity's worst tendencies.

I would not necessarily say ban it, but I also think it should be harder to access--like it was before the interwebs. For most people, gambling was never a problem because you could only get to Vegas or Atlantic City but so many times a year (of course true addicts could always just move to Vegas, lose everything, and become a homeless person--I've met some of those people). But this century, you don't even have to leave your house to gamble. I don't think that is very thoughtful regulation for those who are susceptible to addiction. But whatevs. This country has far bigger problems than that. That's just my two cents.

[Go Vols]

51. Lived all over the last 35 years,

never had a problem finding a bookie.

[TSIAS]

24. It depends

If you do it right, it's better than the slots or roulette. Like poker, there is a great element of skill involved.

[Johonny]

41. Yeah,, but like online poker there is no gaurantee it has to be honest

If it remains unregulated companies will soon (if they don't already) do what online poker did and build in "house" players. All the money the house player wins stays with the house hedging the payouts to the house. While fantasy football feels harder to game... the fact is statical oriented people have already been gaming it and winning a high percentage of the payouts. There is no reason to believe the in house people can't use the same statistics to basically keep house money. The only way to prevent this is regulations.

[CBGLuthier]

25. Yes, but also, in my opinion, gambling should not be illegal.

[Ex Lurker]

27. Yes, it is gambling. Yes, it should be legal NT

[rjsquirrel]

31. It's gambling of course

And thus an addictive tax on the chronically innumerate.

[Separation]

32. No, and here is why.

During the 70's NY tried to label pinball machines as gambling as well. That is until a guy came in and told them that it is a game of skill. He called every shot he was going to make and made them.

Now, fast forward to today and we have Fan Duel. There are a few people who make money off of these games consitantly. They are not pinball players, but staticians. They do this full time, and have stats in the players, coaches, etc. that would make our eyes bleed from boredom.

Here is the dirty secret behind these sites. Fan duel, would like you to believe that any Schmoe can lay down $40 and win. That's what makes it attractive. But in reality, the Schmoe will end up losing his money while the statistician takes it in.

[ProfessorGAC]

33. Of Course It's Gambling

I voted yes. Don't care though. I'm quite libertarian when it comes to vices. People want to gamble, ok by me.

[Iggo]

37. I'm also okay with gambling.

But they should identify themselves as such and also should be subject to the same regulations as any other gambling operation.

I'm, with you on the vices, though. Can't babysit adults. Drink. Smoke. Gamble. If it gets you in trouble, don't come crying to me.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. Peas In A Pod

On this issue, that's you and me, Iggo. And, i'm with you on these FF leagues being held to the same regs as other gambling businesses. That only makes sense.

[Johonny]

40. Obviously gambling, should be regulated by states commisions if allowed to exist

most states allow some form of gambling and pay outs, profits, taxes, and honesty should be regulated if it is allowed to exist. People like it so I don't have a problem with it being legal, but people need to remember most gambling not legally regulated end up becoming horribly dishonest. This reminds me of the online poker craze which as everyone remembers ended up being heavily rigged against players because... it wasn't regulated. We banned those sites domestically so popularity doesn't mean it HAS to be legal and offshore ones have been found to be rigged time and time again.

[Xolodno]

45. Yes. It is.

1. Should it be banned? No. Doing so will only drive it underground and increasing the problem.

2. It should be taxed AND the funds sent to addiction recovery and research.

When I walk into a casino....I almost never gamble. Years ago a bunch of us soon to be economists in the stat's lab ran the numbers on all the gambling options in Las Vegas and discovered....wait for it...wait for it....you can't win (well there is a way, but that will get you booted from the casino).

When I do gamble, ironically I always come out ahead...I attribute that to being able to walk away. Can't tell you how many times when I was on a "winning streak" and everyone at the table says "you're winning! Why are you cashing out?" So there is even peer pressure to continue in addition to the psychological "fever".

People probably looked at me weird and I sort of embarrassed my wife when I saw a sign "99% Payback" and laughed really hard (almost dropped to the floor laughing). It guaranteed you that you were going to lose and if you were lucky, only lose 1% of your money.....and yet, people fell for it.

[jmowreader]

47. Why should one form of online gambling be tolerated and another banned?

DraftKings and FanDuel are clearly gambling. They try to claim they are "games of skill and not of chance," but that's the standard copout when someone gets caught running an illegal gambling parlor. You'll love this: the local tribe's casino opened a poker room and tried to convince the state poker is a game of skill. Didn't work.

If you were to open an online poker site, an online roulette site, or an online NFL gaming site that allowed cash wagers you'd be closed quickly. Online fantasy sports betting should be held to the same standard: either all allowed or all banned.

If they DID allow it, I'd like them to require anyone who wants to play these games for cash to play them with "virtual" money for three to seven visits on different days. (They could charge $20 to $50 for this period to cover their expenses.) That way you find out whether this is the thing you want to do with your money BEFORE you start betting the rent check.