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[guillaumeb]

This message was self-deleted by its author (guillaumeb) on Sat Sep 23, 2017, 03:22 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Odin2005]

1. Sadly, people refuse to get it.

Every time I mention the similarities with Anti-Semitism in the 30s I get spammed with clueless people who insist that it is different this time.

[Matrosov]

10. People hate the homophobia and misoginy

People on DU don't hate all Muslims, they hate the horrible treatment of women and homosexuals that is common in many parts of the Islamic world, a horrible treatment that is now making its way to Europe thanks to Islamic migration.

They also hate the fact that too many progressives are willing to forsake women and members of the LGBT community in favor of deflecting or even ignoring what some of the Islamic migrants have done.

When there is the first attack on a gay bar or a gay festival by Islamic migrants in Europe, those progressives will be tripping over themselves to list all the anti-LGBT attacks that have occurred at the hands of non-Muslims.

[Denzil_DC]

11. "People on DU don't hate all Muslims"

We must be logged on to different forums. And apparently you're a spokesperson for "people on DU".

A large number of posts over the past month or so have heavily featured broadbrush condemnation of Muslims. I'm not really going to have to trawl away and pull up some of the many such quotes to prove that point, am I?

Yes, some have tempered that with a more nuanced critique. You were careful to use the word "some" just now, for instance, but now you're extrapolating an attack on a gay bar or festival by Islamic migrants in Europe? And putting words in DU people's mouths at some future point to complain of homophobia and misogyny? There's no discussion possible there. This isn't a zero-sum game: "You're an Islamophobe." "No, you're a homophobe/misogynist."

In addition to what the OP quoted, many of the stories about immigrant atrocities in Europe that have been cited have come from the UK right-wing press, a number of them second- or third-hand via similarly right-wing sources in Europe. The UK is in the run-up to a referendum on Europe at the moment, and papers like the Mail, Express etc. are only too happy to capitalize on any story they can find that stirs up anti-Europe feelings, and Muslim immigrants are in the firing line at the moment for obvious reasons. And those sources get quoted freely here and used as the basis for hundreds of comments. It didn't seem to phaze some folks when a couple of us pointed out that the major second-hand source for one story was Breitbart UK.

There's no doubt that some really horrible things have happened and the authorities have been caught on the back foot in coping with the situation. Sitting an ocean away and opining on it doesn't help anyone. Comparing what's happening in Europe with the US doesn't make much sense since you don't share land borders with the countries affected, and you have strict vetting of refugees from the current wars, and very strict quotas.

There's also no doubt that there are vested interests that would love to propagate the idea that Muslims and non-Muslims simply cannot live together. One would be ISIL, another the racist European right. I'm lucky enough to live in a country that so far seems to disprove that myth.

I live a lot closer to mainland Europe than you do and have to pay a keen interest in current affairs because of the job I do. I'm blowed if I'd feel comfortable making some of the gross generalizations that some DUers come out with on a daily basis about the situation and what people "over there" think etc.

[melman]

15. Yes, trawl away and prove it.

[Denzil_DC]

17. Nah.

I just got back from a funeral. The evidence has been absolutely plain to see for anyone who's even dipped into any of these threads, so I'll invite you to waste your own time if you really need proof, as I have other priorities right now.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. If you had even acknowledged the LGBT and women's issues the other poster cited I might not

mention that your post is one long characterization of others lacking in all citation and that it contains a huge amount of verbiage designed to present yourself as well suited to judge others without citation, without quotes, with mere gossip and high claims of authority.

[Denzil_DC]

32. Whatever.

I just this afternoon stood at a graveside while a father whose family I've known for thirty-odd years and who is not noted for displaying emotion in public cracked up as he delivered a brief eulogy to his 30-year-old son, a botanist on expedition who'd been missing in Vietnam for two years before his body was finally discovered, having fallen from a cliff on a remote height, by a passing farmer following extensive search parties. This was followed by sitting across from the young guy's mother as she described visiting the country on a fruitless search for her son, and trying to offer what little comfort I could.

So forgive me if in the circumstances of decompressing from a real tragedy among people whose lives actually touch my own and trying to get some warmth back in my bones, I don't give a flying damn how you choose to characterize and dismiss my heartfelt words above. It couldn't matter much less to me at the moment.

Look and you will find. But I suspect you'll be blind to anything others have typed on these forums that doesn't fit your agenda, so I really can't be bothered spending any more time and energy trying fruitlessly to persuade you otherwise.

[Denzil_DC]

35. And I've no idea if what I just wrote above

spurred some kind soul to gift me another heart, or if it was sheer coincidence.

In any case, thank you kind stranger - on a day like today, your gesture's very much appreciated.

[romanic]

18. Well said.

+1

[LanternWaste]

22. While yet others simply use that as a convenient mechanism

"People hate the homophobia and misoginy (sic)..."

While yet others simply use that as a convenient mechanism to engage in bigotry under the cover of righteousness.

It's not as difficult as one may think to discern the difference.

[malaise]

5. No different

except this time it is the West bombing up the refugees home countries

[pampango]

6. Not just the West as Aleppo proves. n/t

[malaise]

8. True but the refugee crisis from the ME began during the Iraq war and

occupation

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Russian bombs are 'the West'? Or are Russian bombs the good bombs?

nt

[malaise]

30. Is it three or four Western powers bombing up Syria? n/t

[GummyBearz]

20. How can anyone deny the similarities between anti-semitism in the 30s and the Arab world today??

It is exactly the same this time around. Only difference being that an Arab country hasn't gone to the lengths that Nazi Germany did to "solve the problem"

[WillowTree]

3. A large part of the problem, I think.......

........is that a too-visible percentage of them are either unable or unwilling to assimilate and/or adapt to the cultures to which they are migrating.

And then there's the misogyny so common in the Middle Eastern cultures. Eff that.

[malaise]

9. Excellent post

Everyone else must adapt except...the right wing racists everywhere

[davidn3600]

31. Well who are the immigrants here?

There is a very old saying out there...."When in Rome, do as the Romans." When you are a guest in a foreign country, you abide by their laws, rules, and customs. If you do not, I have no problem with those locals tossing your ass out of there.

Answer me this....why should Germans change? Why should westerners change their cultures and beliefs and societies to make immigrants happy? Is that fair?

[WillowTree]

12. "When you say adapt, do you mean abandon all that gives them identity?"

No. I mean don't go over to someone else's house and expect them to abandon their culture to accommodate you. It's entirely possible for people to emigrate and become part of the society of the place they now want to call home without losing themselves. I work with and have lots of friends among my co-workers who came from Japan and India who are able to embrace our culture and, in doing so, add to it by bringing new and interesting insights and customs to the table.

I'm from Chicago and there is a huge Polish population here. And they've brought their heritage along with them and share foods and holidays and customs with anyone in the area, but have also honored and became and energetic part of the communities they found here.

Bottom line, the refugees certainly don't have to give up being who they are, but they would do well not to disrespect the societies that are taking them in. It's entirely unreasonable on the part of some of them, who are getting plenty of press, to expect to be afforded more respect by their hosts than they are willing to show themselves.

".......the misogyny free culture of the West?". Cool! Kudos! Way to twist someone's words!! I neither said nor implied any such thing. But I'll take the level of misogyny we experience in the West over being required to be veiled and shrouded and not being allowed to drive or have my own money.......not to mention the charming custom of "honor" killings any day of the week and twice on Sunday, thankyouverymuch.

[The2ndWheel]

13. When you say context

Do rape stats in the US have discussion helping context? When you say it's not meant as an excuse for crimes, isn't that the same thing said by misogynist types in every country? Yeah, it's bad, but...etc, etc, etc.

Whatever it is that this Europe situation is, it does create an interesting context. If the refugees are a product of the West, and with America being the prime driver of the West at this point, then America is in a way exceptional. America is the center of the world. At the same time, everyone says that America isn't that. But, it's the cause of every problem. But, it's not the center of the world.

Life is subjective. We all use whatever argument we need to use to make our points. If we agree with X, then we can justify and rationalize it. If we disagree with X, then we can find a way to not justify or rationalize it. We all do it. If we didn't there would be no such thing as arguments. Everything would be simple, easy, and everyone would agree.

When you say adapt, do you mean abandon all that gives them identity?

Same with this. This question could be asked of the people in Europe, or the refugees. The question of adaptation is always an interesting one. Who has to adapt to a given situation more? How is it done? What's the standard being adapted to? Who gets to set the standard? It's really one of the most basic questions in human society, going back to the very first groupings of humanity.

[Hortensis]

34. Good thread, thanks. Rec'd.

[cwydro]

7. Yes.

+1

[Marrah_G]

14. I hesitated to chime in, but i am going to anyway

There has not been able to be any discussion about the real problems going on in regards to this massive influx of people to Europe.

Anyone that even brings up the problems with these large immigrant groups is immediately shut down as a racist who thinks just like hiltler.

Anyone who takes the position in favor of the refugees, pointing out that there are families and children, women and elderly all being lumped into a nasty stereotype is viewed as having their heads in the sand and thinking Muslims can do no wrong.

The reality is that there is a huge number of refugees and the countries are having difficulty absorbing them all and getting them into good living situations.

There is also a large portion of young men there for economic reasons who are not working, bored and that results in shitty behavior.

The problem has to be looked at from all sides so that solutions can be found that actually work before it spirals even more out of control.

I think we also need to make some solid plans to take refugees here. The government need to start finding homes, social services, jobs, language classes, social behavior classes, etc.

I don't care what any gop asses say....we do have the resources here to not only care for refugees, but to also care for our own homeless population.

We throw away so much.

That is my pre-coffee 6 am rambling.

[pampango]

16. "The problem has to be looked at from all sides so that solutions can be found that actually work "

Nicely said.

The simplistic and harsh 'solutions' to complicated problems that are offered by RW demagogues are meant to win votes, not to solve problems.

[Marrah_G]

37. But we do also have to acknowledge that there are groups acting badly

Those groups need to be stopped before they can turn the population totally against them. I have seen videos of huge groups on the highway trying to get into the back of tractor trailers in stuck in traffic to steal. They are aggressive and bold and the couple of police on motorcycles were overwhelmed by the numbers and could basically just drive up and down the side of the highway hoping to scare them away. You also do have groups of unemployed men harassing women and they need to be stopped also.

These groups are making the real refugees have a much harder time assimilating into communities.

We have to acknowledge the good and bad behavior in both refugees and citizens. There are lots of fantastic people trying to help the refugees. There is also a rise in nationalism that we all know is very dangerous if allowed to fester.

I think there needs to be more police (i hate saying that) and more education, housing, food etc for those in need.

It scares me to see Europe in such a crisis.

[guillaumeb]

39. These groups are criminals.

My feeling, and I am not alone, is that most of the various crises in the Middle East are a direct result of Western intervention.

[Denzil_DC]

33. Thank you.

If that's your pre-coffee 6 am rambling, I'd like to read some more of your thoughts.

[Marrah_G]

38. Thank you :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Yep. And, it's as obvious as Trump's tirades about Mexican immigrants. K&R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Too true. And, the xenophobia is justified using the same language.